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Old 04-15-2012, 10:44 AM
Moonlitherial Moonlitherial is offline
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Posts: 4,821
I had a perfect example of both sides of this argument at breakfast yesterday. We were at a lovely breakfast place (Cora's) when a mother and son, probably 9 or 10 yrs old sat at the next table. I probably wouldn't have even taken any notice of them if the tables across the aisle from us weren't then pushed together to accommodate a gaggle of girls (at least 12) in the same age range as the boy. I first thought that there were only 2 parents with the group, but a few minutes later a couple more parents came by the table and dropped off 3 or 4 younger siblings and then returned to their own table on the other side of the room.

The expressions on the young boys face was entertaining for the remainder of my meal. He was more appalled by the girls behavior than any person other than the waitress. A few times he leaned across the table to whisper urgently to his mother. Adorable.

The girls btw were not particularly out of control just very excited. It seems they had just won their first game of a weekend tournament. I'm generally a fan of teaching kids skills like ordering for themselves in a restaurant but leaving the poor waitress with 15 kids under 10 and providing no supervision or assistance seemed unfair.
Old 04-15-2012, 12:29 PM
Fuji Fuji is online now
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: County Cork
Posts: 1,467
Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
Well, you where quite right to not bother with any post-graduate work in sociology - why bother with all that "science" stuff when, as many in this thread will tell you, a few choice anecdotes clearly demonstrates important and universal contemporary trends?
Well, I didn't post one way or the other as to how I think the hypothesis "Kids' behavior and their parents' tolerance of same is the same now as it ever was" is scientifically supportable or not.

My point was that it's hardly "scientific" to dismiss out-of-hand the possibility that things have changed in some way just because you have an ancient quote at the ready.
Old 04-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Cat Whisperer Cat Whisperer is offline
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Location: Lethbridge, AB.
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Originally Posted by handsomeharry View Post
I'm a charmer, ain't I?
And handsome, too.

I blame Dr. Spock for all of it.
Old 04-15-2012, 01:24 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Location: Montana, U.S.A.
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Originally Posted by perfectparanoia View Post
I think the biggest difference between now and when I was younger was the sense of community.
It still exists, depending on where you are and whether you make an effort to be a part of it. I remember when our oldest child was about 9 months old and raising a fuss in a restaurant. Just as I was getting up to take her outside, the owner of the restaurant came over and said, "Let me hold her for a bit so you two can eat in peace!" She took our daughter on her hip and bounced her around the kitchen for ten minutes while we ate. It was marvelous.

We went back there a LOT.

Originally Posted by billfish678 View Post
And thats when you make a hail mary pass towards the end zone with the toy
And yell "FETCH"!
Old 04-15-2012, 11:51 PM
Johanna Johanna is offline
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Location: Altered States of America
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Originally Posted by WhyNot View Post
I inadvertently scared the crap out of a 3 year old at WalMart today.

I heard the shrieking, and honestly thought someone was hurt. As I ran - literally ran - around the corner, there she is, one leg on either side of the cart, trying to climb out while screaming for her mother. Her mother? Chatting on her cell phone 20 feet down the aisle, back turned.

"NO!" (I admit I shouted.) "That's NOT how we sit in carts!"

Did I mention I was stopping at the store between patients? I had on my scrubs and a white labcoat. So I look like (to a kid) "a doctor," an authority figure, running around a corner yelling at her. Poor thing. Shocked into silence instantly.

But she yanked her leg back over the edge of the cart and sat her little butt down, lemme tell you what!

The mother sort of casually turned and saw me standing next to her kid, white coat and all, and stammered a few, "Bbbb....but...I was just..."

"Your choice, ma'am," I said. "Keep an eye on her here, or I'll see you in the ER later. Bye!"

Didn't hear a peep from the kid for the rest of my time there. Not a peep.

(I don't work ER. Doesn't matter. Stupid, stupid woman.)
Utterly brilliant!
Once again you're my hero.
Old 04-16-2012, 02:41 AM
TokyoBayer TokyoBayer is offline
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Taiwan
Posts: 9,153
When my daughter was only 2 1/2 she had already figured out there were "Daddy Rules" and Mommy Maybies."

We were with some friends, and Beta-chan had gotten a hold of mommy's sunglasses. Mommy asked for them back, but went back to her conversation with her friends, leaving the expensive glasses in the hands of a toddler. Our friend, also a mother of toddlers, was watching, and I just mentioned to Beta-chan, "Give Daddy the glasses" in a normal tone of voice. She did, without a fuss.

Same girl, same situation, it's just that she's learned that Daddy picks his fights, but when he does, "No" means "No." As she grows older, there will be more room for negotiation, but for now we don't mess around. Mind you, we also do a lot of playing about it. She's scream "No" and I'll launch into a monologue, saying both people's lines:

"Beta-chan says No."
"Daddy says Yes.
"Beta-chan says No."
"Daddy says Yes.
"Beta-chan says Yes.
"Daddy says no.
"Beta-chan says Yes.
"Daddy says no.
"Beta-chan is confessed, did she want yes or no?
"Daddy says purple.
"Beta-chan says pink
(Daddy starts to pout)
"Daddy wants pink"
Beta-chan likes pink"
OK, let's do XXX and Beta-chan gets pink."

At this point the subject matter is completely forgotten and all is well.

Two to three-year-old cry or run around in restaurants for only a few reasons. 1. They're hungry, at which point you get the waiter/waitress to bring anything to tide the over. 2. They're bored, and you've been there too long. Someone needs to take them out or you box up your meal and leave. 3. They are having a bad day, and you either box up your meal or you take it out to your car and eat there. 4. The parents are self-centered twits would are condemned to another 16 years of hell because they haven't learned how to say no to their precious offspring. You think 4-year-olds are manipulative, wait until they're 12 and can actually think up strategies on how to drive you nuts.

One of the best advice someone gave me when my first was still a baby, the child needs to know that they can through whatever kind of fit they want, and that the parents are going to be fine with it. We won't let you through one in a restaurant, so you will be bodily picked and removed, but you aren't going to special attention. We give special attention with you do things we like, not when you act up.
Old 04-17-2012, 08:15 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 17,984
Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
Who needs anecdotes when the real ace-in-the-hole is an impressive-sounding term like "confirmation bias"?

"You've had kids thump on your back? I never have! Confirmation bias!"

"You don't like screaming kids? Teenagers and old people are annoying too! Confirmation bias!"

"You think you can tell the difference between parents letting their kids run wild and parents making an effort? Confirmation bias! What, you've seen your brother and his wife doing a good job parenting their son and think they'd never for a moment allow him to terrorize a restaurant? Doubleplus confirmation bias!!!"
I'm scratching my head at why you think that your brother's *good* parenting somehow proves that the general level of *bad* parenting has increased.

The issue is not whether there exist bad parents. Everyone knows that there are. The issue is whether the level of bad parenting has increased over time. What I'm saying is that a couple of memorable anecdotes doesn't prove it, any more than telling anecdotes conclusively demostrates any sort of prejudice.

I use the term "confirmation bias" because this thread is filled with such outstanding, textbook examples of it.
Old 04-17-2012, 08:22 AM
Malthus Malthus is offline
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 17,984
Originally Posted by Fuji View Post
Well, I didn't post one way or the other as to how I think the hypothesis "Kids' behavior and their parents' tolerance of same is the same now as it ever was" is scientifically supportable or not.

My point was that it's hardly "scientific" to dismiss out-of-hand the possibility that things have changed in some way just because you have an ancient quote at the ready.
No, an ancient quote does not take the place of some sort of scientific analysis of tends over time.

But of course, it was not intended to be a "scientific" analysis. Did you mistake it for one?

My point was to point out in a mocking manner that similar sorts of arguments are as old as the hills.*

*By which I do not literally mean as old as the glacial processes that sculpted any particular set of hills. I realize that using such terms of phrase among the painfully literal-minded is dangerous. Evidently.

Last edited by Malthus; 04-17-2012 at 08:24 AM.


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