Straight Dope Message Board

[Nansbread1]

https://www.davidicke.com/article/38...s-investigator

So what is the straight dope on this recent news article.

[Trinopus]

I am the King of Sardinia. (e.g., anybody can "claim" anything.)

Skeptical until evidence is presented. Also, David Icke does not have a good reputation (putting it very mildly) among rational people.

[bibliophage]

It seems to be in the news a lot the last few days I couldn't find out what makes them think it's 250,000 years old. The rationalwiki entry suggests it's probably an excavator tooth. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wedge_of_Aiud

[dtilque]

It's showing up on a number of other sources, although none on the first couple Google pages that I would consider reliable. We need a lot more info about what tests were made, etc before deciding. I don't think there's even a standard test for the age of aluminum, so I'm wondering how they came to this conclusion.

[beowulff]

"How can you tell?" asked Arthur. "Have you got some exotic device for measuring the age of metal?"
"No, I just found this sales brochure lying on the floor. It's a lot of `the Universe can be yours' stuff. Ah! Look, I was right."

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Nansbread1

https://www.davidicke.com/article/38...s-investigator

So what is the straight dope on this recent news article.

I would hardly call something from the website of David Icke a "new article".

[running coach]

Originally Posted by dtilque

It's showing up on a number of other sources, although none on the first couple Google pages that I would consider reliable. We need a lot more info about what tests were made, etc before deciding. I don't think there's even a standard test for the age of aluminum, so I'm wondering how they came to this conclusion.

Why not carbon dating?

It worked on Confederate gold.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Nansbread1

https://www.davidicke.com/article/38...s-investigator

So what is the straight dope on this recent news article.

1. This piece of trash(the item) was found back in 1973-nothing new.
2. This piece of trash(the "news" article) was written by a man with a few problems, reality-grasping wise.

[watchwolf49]

Originally Posted by running coach

Why not carbon dating?

It worked on Confederate gold.

Carbon dating doesn't work on silicon-based life forms ...

[astro]

How do you accurately date a metal object which has been refined out of ore?

It's a hardened bucket tooth from an excavator.

[watchwolf49]

We can compare the amount of ²⁷Al isotope to the amount of ²⁶Al ... if this was indeed an alien spacecraft, then the cosmic ray bombardment during it's time in space would give an increase in the ²⁶Al part. This won't allow you to date the object, but it might give a clue to whether it is extraterrestrial or not.

We could also test for unoctononium metal ... if we find any that would be a sure sign of alien technology.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Do not read davidicke.com. Ever. Do not cite davidicke.com. Ever.

Do not read any site that quotes or cites or points to davidicke.com (except those like the Dope that will mock it to death).

Those sites will reach out of your computer and smack IQ points out of your head.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by astro

How do you accurately date a metal object which has been refined out of ore?

I've always had good luck going to the beach with a friendly dog, myself.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by astro

How do you accurately date a metal object which has been refined out of ore?

It's a hardened bucket tooth from an excavator.

Not likely if it's made from aluminum. It would tear off in about 2 seconds. More likely a foot pedal or some other item that doesn't take a lot of abuse.

[astro]

Originally Posted by Magiver

Not likely if it's made from aluminum. It would tear off in about 2 seconds. More likely a foot pedal or some other item that doesn't take a lot of abuse.

I believe they use hardened aluminum teeth in situations where there is fire danger from sparks present.

Excavator bucket teeth, made of aluminum

[Lucas Jackson]

Why all the confusion? The article clearly states it's part of a UFO.

[Isilder]

How does the metallurgy compare to Meschermitts from WWII ???

Aluminium as used in air craft... maybe the Meschersmitt car.. maybe a repair part.
Anyway its highly likely to be from WW II based on statistics of aluminium parts use...

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by bibliophage

It seems to be in the news a lot the last few days I couldn't find out what makes them think it's 250,000 years old. The rationalwiki entry suggests it's probably an excavator tooth. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wedge_of_Aiud

My older brother found a pointed, steel object with something like a haft in a Virginia hayfield in the 1960s. Immediately assumed it was the point of a cavalry-man's lance. No, said an historian from the UVA, it was from a reaper reaping hay. Broke his heart.

Originally Posted by Derleth

I've always had good luck going to the beach with a friendly dog, myself.

There are many ways of taking that sentence. Just saying.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by astro

I believe they use hardened aluminum teeth in situations where there is fire danger from sparks present.

Excavator bucket teeth, made of aluminum

interesting. I stand corrected. I briefly worked at a warehouse that dealt with excavation equipment parts. Never saw anything like that. Makes sense.

[dropzone]

It was probably from a century before you worked there.

Worked for JI Case after they bought International Harvester. Some drawings were still current 100+ years later. The Case guys refused to help with the IH parts. Couldn't blame them.

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by Magiver

interesting. I stand corrected. I briefly worked at a warehouse that dealt with excavation equipment parts. Never saw anything like that. Makes sense.

Bro! Despite differences we have bonded over "WTF? They still do that? How archaic are they?" Except we know.

I recognized the POS old car my welding guy wasn't restoring 40 years ago by its color It runs, sorta.

[Common Tater]

Originally Posted by astro

I believe they use hardened aluminum teeth in situations where there is fire danger from sparks present.

Excavator bucket teeth, made of aluminum

Lots of coal mining in Romania. High risk of explosion because of the dust. So it makes sense.

"Pre-civilization" high-tech artifacts are fun to ponder or intriguing, and a very small number of items have been discovered but they always turn out to be something like this, a recent item mistakenly identified as somehow ancient. If there were long lost civilizations we'd be finding all kinds of the stuff routinely.

[Asympotically fat]

It's funny how often people seem to miss how utterly bat-shit crazy David Icke is. I think he does have somewhat better presentation skills than your average loon, probably from his former career in the mainstream media, but I don't see that he is so good at presenting his piffle that it isn't immediately obvious it is total bilge.

I think it is even more ridiculous that people take him seriously when you look at how is current career was partly launched from him becoming a national figure of ridicule in the UK for a short while:

Icke is a guy from fairly humble origins who started out as professional goalkeeper (soccer), but only played a handful of professional games at lower professional level before his career was cut very prematurely short due to arthritis. He then moved into sports journalism and worked his way up to be a mid-tier pundit/presenter on UK national TV, with the minor celebrity status that entailed. If anyone is familiar with Steve Coogan's Alan Partridge character, then the kind of figure that Icke was at this time, was exactly the early-nineties minor-celebrity UK sports journalist that Coogan was originally satirizing.

Whilst still a sports Icke started getting into new age beliefs and it seems not long after he had a mental breakdown and famously (in the UK) called a press conference to declare himself the second-coming of Jesus Christ. The national ridicule and publicity lead to the episode that he is most well-known for in the UK, he appeared on Wogan (the UK equivalent of The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson at that time). Wearing a turquoise and pink shell suit, he reiterated his claim about being the Second Coming, somewhat oblivious to the audience's laughter. The incident still appears on top craziest/embarrassing TV moment-style lists in the UK.

After this he faded a bit from the mainstream spotlight in the UK, but used his residual celebrity and notoriety to become a writer of New Age flim-flam. At some point he seems have got into the darker side of New Age ideas and developed into arguably the most well-known conspiracy theorist in the World, his most well-known belief being that the World is run by a cabal of shape-shifting lizards. As far as I am aware, he has never overtly adopted the racial-theorizing of the extreme-right, he has come under substantial criticism for adapting old antisemitic conspiracies into his new-agey conspiracy theory narrative, flirting with holocaust-denial and courting the extreme-right in the US.

You could accuse me of poisoning the well here, but I would say that I am just pointing out that the well was well and truly poisoned long ago.

[FluffyBob]

From a link in google images of 'aluminum excavator teeth'; this guy has found one that matches the object precisely.

[FluffyBob]

Spoke too soon, I guess that is just a conceptual drawing of how it would attach to a bucket if it were an excavator tooth.

Still much more convincing than either VTOL landing gear part or ancient UFO widget.

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

Originally Posted by FluffyBob

Spoke too soon, I guess that is just a conceptual drawing of how it would attach to a bucket if it were an excavator tooth.

Still much more convincing than either VTOL landing gear part or ancient UFO widget.

But are there some examples of actual excavator teeth that match the relic?

[Ignotus]

Originally Posted by astro

How do you accurately date a metal object which has been refined out of ore?

If it's pre-1945 and of Earthly origin, it should lack traces of radioisotopes from nuclear fallout.

Of course, if it's of alien origin, all bets are off.

[Budget Player Cadet]

Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase

Do not read davidicke.com. Ever. Do not cite davidicke.com. Ever.

Do not read any site that quotes or cites or points to davidicke.com (except those like the Dope that will mock it to death).

Those sites will reach out of your computer and smack IQ points out of your head.

The same applies to NaturalNews, Infowars, Rense, and whale.to. If you can't find a better source, you don't have a source.

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by I Love Me, Vol. I

But are there some examples of actual excavator teeth that match the relic?

I couldn't find anything exactly the same, but there is considerable variety - and many of the examples to be found on the web have quite similar features - for example: http://scotor.en.ecplaza.net/26.jpg

Also, the artifact is broken, old and maybe from some weird foreign manufacturer nobody has ever heard of.

[running coach]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

I couldn't find anything exactly the same, but there is considerable variety - and many of the examples to be found on the web have quite similar features - for example: http://scotor.en.ecplaza.net/26.jpg

Also, the artifact is broken, old and maybe from some weird foreign manufacturer nobody has ever heard of.

When Trump is elected, he'll bring back all those jobs that went interstellar.
Alpha Centauri IV has been devaluing it's currency for years.

[scr4]

Why should we even believe the claim that it's aluminum?

[Mangetout]

It looks like it is - there's a fresh hole drilled in it (I'm assuming that was done to sample the material. If it was found with that clean hole in it, then I don't think anyone would even begin to claim it was very old)

[Vicsage]

Looks more like a pedal from a Delorean fitted with a flux capacitor. And just as likely as a space ship part.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Vicsage

Looks more like a pedal from a Delorean fitted with a flux capacitor. And just as likely as a space ship part.

At least with the DeLorean, you know that something associated with the company got you high and made you go fast...

[watchwolf49]

Originally Posted by scr4

Why should we even believe the claim that it's aluminum?

Testing it's density would be pretty easy, a small sample could be run through a mass spectrometer ...

Of course, if it's of alien origin, all bets are off.

[Dewey Finn]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

I couldn't find anything exactly the same, but there is considerable variety - and many of the examples to be found on the web have quite similar features - for example: http://scotor.en.ecplaza.net/26.jpg

All of those examples have the hole from side to side. I couldn't find an example with a vertical hole as in the supposed artifact.

[excavating (for a mind)]

I truly doubt it is an excavator tooth. If it was, it would surely be evidence of alien origin since we lack the technology to produce such an item from aluminum that would hold up. As Magiver said in Post #14, it would take longer to attach it to the bucket than it would last in use. Aluminum is just too soft. If non-sparking was a requirement, there are non-ferrous materials (such as beryllium-copper) that would be suitable, but I am not even sure there is much need.

Not likely an aircraft part; it's too easy to design an equivalent part that would be much lighter.

If it is made from aluminum, I would suspect it is part of a conveyor system. As mentioned already, why should we believe that it is made from aluminum any more than we believe it is 250,000 years old?

[Wesley Clark]

I am not a metallurgist, but I cannot find what tests were done or how reliable they are. All I can find is that the item was originally tested in Romania, then tested in Switzerland.

[jayjay]

David Icke?

It's obviously an artifact of the original landing of the Reptilians on this planet...

[donkeyoatey]

This blog has a little more information.

[Amateur Barbarian]

Originally Posted by watchwolf49

Testing it's density would be pretty easy, a small sample could be run through a mass spectrometer ...

The shiny hole seen in some photos would seem to be where material was removed for just that purpose. It's claimed to be very close to a standard (and fairly hard/durable) aluminum alloy, something in the 2000 series. Which, if properly heat-treated, would be quite durable for excavating or moving soft materials like sand or soil.

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

All of those examples have the hole from side to side. I couldn't find an example with a vertical hole as in the supposed artifact.

Here's one. Here's another. Here's a third.

It seems each manufacturer of this type of equipment reinvents the attachment method for themselves (perhaps to corner the market on consumable spares) - so it's not surprising we can't find one exactly the same without knowing the brand (assuming the brand even still exists for the item in question - I mean - Romania is close to the Ukraine and Russia - it could be from a bit of soviet era machinery whose manufacturer never existed on the internet,

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by excavating (for a mind)

I truly doubt it is an excavator tooth. If it was, it would surely be evidence of alien origin since we lack the technology to produce such an item from aluminum that would hold up.

Such things are apparently commercially available per Astro's response above.

[watchwolf49]

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark

I am not a metallurgist, but I cannot find what tests were done or how reliable they are. All I can find is that the item was originally tested in Romania, then tested in Switzerland.

David Icke said they were, he seems a creditable source ...

[excavating (for a mind)]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Such things are apparently commercially available per Astro's response above.

If you mean this:

Originally Posted by astro

I believe they use hardened aluminum teeth in situations where there is fire danger from sparks present.

Excavator bucket teeth, made of aluminum

There are several problems using this as a cite that such things are available. One, the description is "Excavator bucket teeth, made of aluminum steel". Now, what is it? Aluminum or steel? As far as I know, there is no such thing as "Aluminum Steel". There is "aluminum-killed steel", which is steel where very small amounts of aluminum has been added (~ 0.02%) as part of the refining operation. Nearly all low-alloy steel made today is aluminum-killed, so is is most commonly just called "steel".

Second, the website referenced is an international trading company, not any actual parts supplier or equipment manufacturer. That website is essentially offering to source a manufacturer for parts made from steel, aluminum, brass, etc...; it is not indicating such an item is commercially available.

As I said, aluminum is just too soft to stand up to ground engaging operations. Even the strongest hardened aluminum alloy is way softer than the mildest steels and the steels used for ground engaging tools are some of the hardest steels made (and they wear amazingly quickly).

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by bibliophage

It seems to be in the news a lot the last few days I couldn't find out what makes them think it's 250,000 years old. The rationalwiki entry suggests it's probably an excavator tooth. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Wedge_of_Aiud

That's exactly what it looks like.

[astro]

Googling up grapples brought up this awesome song and video combo.

GBM Electro-hydraulic clamshell grab hydraulic grapple clamshell grab bucket European Standard

I wonder who the singer is?

[Banksiaman]

Originally Posted by excavating (for a mind)

I truly doubt it is an excavator tooth. If it was, it would surely be evidence of alien origin since we lack the technology to produce such an item from aluminum that would hold up. ....

...

... As mentioned already, why should we believe that it is made from aluminum any more than we believe it is 250,000 years old?

We should believe it was made from aluminium [or whatever] a lot more easily than being 250,000 years because its a more parsimonious explanation.

Previous posts have given lots of plausible explanations why, even though there is no exact match, it could be explained as an excavator tooth of some sort. The only question is whether aluminium was suitable, and we could have reasonable concerns with accuracy of the original analysis or its reportage.

On the other hand, to accept that it is 250,000 years old requires accepting a vast swag of other things being true - aliens visiting Earth, aliens existing, mechanical digging going on 250 kya, and so on. None of these are attested by any sort of evidence.

The most parsimonious explanation may not end up being true [the metal could have been misidentified, for example], but as a working hypothesis it is entirely within
the range of plausible possibilities.

There are no more grounds for preferring alien origin to my alternate, equally unsupported argument that it is actually a petrified turd shat out in a distinctive shape by a previously unknown form of giant metal ore-eating giraffe. Gosh, what a find!

[excavating (for a mind)]

Originally Posted by Banksiaman

We should believe it was made from aluminium [or whatever] a lot more easily than being 250,000 years because its a more parsimonious explanation.

The reason to question the claim of its composition as well as its age is to point out that both claims are from a questionable source and neither are substantiated by any evidence. For example, if Icke would have posted the results of the analysis, that would support the claim of its composition. I suspect that it would also conform to a commercially available aluminum alloy, probably one that originated in the 1950s to 1960s.

Knowing the specific alloy would also probably lead to the application, since if we knew which alloy it was, it would be much easier to identify the industries that use that alloy in their manufacturing. My point in questioning the material is not to suggest there is equal doubt to its composition as its age, but to infer that there could be a reasonable explanation for not divulging the specifics of the analysis.

[Dewey Finn]

Does the corroded appearance of this item give any clues as to its composition? For example, I'd expect that if it was made of iron, that the rust might look reddish.