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  #101  
Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Covfefe View Post
So rather than not distribute the yearbooks, it is better that they did not distribute the yearbooks.
Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I had formed an opinion on the yearbook distribution/non-distribution issue. I don't even know yet if the people who paid in advance for their yearbooks are getting refunds.
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Originally Posted by Covfefe View Post
Are you aware of white supremacists who would feel perfectly fine if they never again encountered another human who is non-white? No room for them in that conceptualization.
I'll confess that I didn't make room for them, and that I don't really think of their preference as being a thing that is achievable.

See? I'm not against the IDEA of things being unworthy of consideration, and therefore dismissable.

Anyway, wouldn't they be more "white isolatonists?"

Last edited by kaylasdad99; Yesterday at 01:21 PM.
  #102  
Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
It occurs to me that "social justice" does not have to mean something negative* in order for "Social Justice Warrior" to. Yeah, it sucks, but it's the world we're living in, and insisting that it isn't does nothing to advance your interests.





*it doesn't
The idea of "SJW" as a pejorative is to make it such that framing things as issues of "social justice" becomes associated with that pejorative, to make fighting for social justice something mockable and a joke.

By responding to "SJW" as an insult you assist that effort. It is as unto responding to "gay" as if it was an insult. Just because they mean it as one does not mean I need to accept it, or more importantly, validate it as one.


To me the only answer to a charge of being a "Social Justice Warrior" is "well I would hope so, but I may not actually measure up ... you fight for social injustice?"

Rolling over on the use of words and symbols, allowing those I think of as "the bad guys" to redefine my words and symbols, is how "liberal" became a negative for so long. I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting "card carrying member of the ACLU" as an insult when the right and best answer was "Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for me to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don't mean squat."
  #103  
Old Yesterday, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
In this case, though, actual white supremacists (such as the NZ shooter, for example, and those politicians mentioned elsewhere in this thread) have adopted the symbol at face value. Is it catering to the gullible and over-sensitive if actual bigots use the symbol un-ironically?
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.

Last edited by Melbourne; Yesterday at 05:44 PM.
  #104  
Old Yesterday, 05:48 PM
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Hopefully, this cheers you up:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cubs/20...n-from-wrigley

It's being used in the US, too. I just used the examples already in this thread.

Do I know that the fan was a white supremacist or just a trolling fucking asshole? Well, I'm not a mind reader. I'll go with both until I learn otherwise. It's pretty nasty putting that sign behind a black announcer.
  #105  
Old Yesterday, 05:57 PM
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Here are some members of the Alabama police force doing it:

https://www.al.com/news/2018/07/jasp...ended_for.html

Probably just 4chan guys.

BTW, the 4chan post that claimed that the whole thing is a hoax to troll "SJWs" came out after the alt-right started using that symbol. I assume the people here saying it's a 4chan hoax will be by shortly to apologize. Cite:

https://medium.com/s/story/does-the-...t-6cf3309df985

Quote:
The 4chan “hoax” post was made on February 27, 2017. Two weeks before this post was made, Media Matters had already called it a “hate symbol.
  #106  
Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
...as tangata whenua, I'm not saddened to say that with all due respect I don't know what on earth you are talking about. White supremacy knows no borders. This isn't about "criteria for behaviour." The Christchurch shooter didn't use that symbol by accident. He didn't do it for an exclusively New Zealand audience. He knew exactly what he was doing.
  #107  
Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM
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Yes, and he wasn't Hurr-hurr-trolling anyone either. He was slaughtering people.
  #108  
Old Today, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...as tangata whenua, I'm not saddened to say that with all due respect I don't know what on earth you are talking about. ...
I've reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear. I'm taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
  #109  
Old Today, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Melbourne View Post
As a migrant, in Aus, I'm saddened to see you using a gesture made by a foreigner, in a foreign country, as a criteria for behavior in the USA. I know, social media, the internet, Marshall McLuhan, etc. And the Hawaii Hello is a gang symbol in NZ, so Hawaii should just say goodby to that gesture also. But as a migrant, I got pretty sad about being told that my culture was inferior, and as a corollary, I've never felt happy with the idea that my culture (or any 'foreign' culture) was superior or definitive.

Different gestures have always been rude or meaningless in different cultures. I want to just accept that, and let it go.
You're right.

Clearly, if someone stands up and throws a roman salute in, say, Australia, that can't mean anything. After all, that could mean something totally different there!

Oh wait, except in this case, we know the person who did so we a big fan of hitler, and definitely knew exactly what it meant, and wrote a whole screed about how great hitler was.

Nah, still could be an innocent cultural misunderstanding, right?



We have more than just wild guesses to go on here. This guy was not appealing to "NZ culture" or any shit like that. He was using a symbol common within internet white supremacist circles, and doing so intentionally. To claim otherwise, simply because of "cultural distance", is nuts.
  #110  
Old Today, 07:50 AM
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I've reviewed what I wrote, and it seems to be fairly clear.
...I've reviewed what you wrote, and I passed it around the official SJW committee and they reviewed what you wrote, and they all agree with me that what I said was absolutely correct.

Quote:
I'm taking it that your inability to understand comes only from an unwillingness to engage with the ideas.
I am absolutely fucking willing to engage with ideas. I actually engaged with your ideas, I argued why I thought your ideas were wrong. That's how engagement works. We know exactly what the Christchurch shooter was doing. And I know better than most. I've actually engaged with people from the alt-right. I'm tangata whenua. Unlike you I live here. Maori have been actively targeted by white supremacists. We know what is going on.

Your decision to snip what I wrote, to focus on a cherry picked snipped sentence demonstrates one things: an unwillingness to engage with ideas. You want to have a discussion? I'm right here. Have at it.
  #111  
Old Today, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
... I track it at least back to Dukakis accepting "card carrying member of the ACLU" as an insult when the right and best answer was "Damn straight, there is nothing more important to our values as Americans than defending free speech, and that means more than the right for me to say what I want to say, and to hear what I want to hear, it means the right of others to say what I do not want to hear as well, or it don't mean squat."
I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
  #112  
Old Today, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.

Imagine being that person.
  #113  
Old Today, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Imagine thinking this is the most sensible response you can make to this thread.

Imagine being that person.
Personally, I think it's far more sensible than the hand-wringing over the OK sign.
  #114  
Old Today, 04:03 PM
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Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn't see a single OK sign in any picture. It's not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I'd say there's something going on...
  #115  
Old Today, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I, for one, would be grateful if you could remind the ACLU of this.
No need. They know and exemplify that value.
Quote:
The ACLU is frequently asked to explain its defense of certain people or groups — particularly controversial and unpopular entities such as the Ku Klux Klan, the Nation of Islam, and the National Socialist Party of America. We do not defend them because we agree with them. Rather we defend their right to free expression and free assembly.

Historically, the people whose opinions are the most controversial or extreme are the people whose rights are most often threatened. Once the government has the power to violate one person’s rights, it can use that power against everyone. We work to stop the erosion of civil liberties before it’s too late.
(Of course the freedom to express any specific belief, or to use any specific gesture, in a student yearbook is not a protected right, whether the gesture is a political statement I agree with, find obscenely offensive, or completely benign but potentially misunderstood. And the right to express also includes the right to express condemnation of what is expressed.)

Monocracy - One, these are believed to have been candids of kids, not posing. Two, amazingly what kids do when goofing around candidly and what games they play with each may change over a decade plus.
  #116  
Old Today, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monocracy View Post
Point of reference: I just went through my high school yearbook (early 90s) and I didn't see a single OK sign in any picture. It's not a common thing to do when posing for a picture. If there are multiple instances of kids flashing OK, then I'd say there's something going on...
I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.

ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.

Last edited by kayaker; Today at 05:23 PM.
  #117  
Old Today, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
I was photographer for my hs yearbook in 1976. A friend, Jeff B., flashed a middle finger in a large group shot. He told me he did it. I saw it right away, but it slipped by the editors and proofreaders.

ETA: no ok signs, but a few peace signs.
One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
  #118  
Old Today, 06:32 PM
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It was a simpler time.
  #119  
Old Today, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TokyoBayer View Post
One of my friends said that in their yearbook a guy exposed himself by moving his shorts. He was sitting down in a group and it got by everyone.
...I'm a photographer: and yeah, I've had this happen to me more often than I've ever had someone flash an OK hand-signal. (Which is only once in 8 years of full time photography: I caught it and deleted it and used an alternate take)
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