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  #201  
Old 06-09-2019, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Yep, that's probably the best strategy (and the one I used) although I'm old enough now that I'm seldom asked for ID for buying alcohol anymore.

Of course, not everyone does it that way - just yesterday I had someone in the store hand me an expired ID and the paper copy, trying to explain the situation. I said sorry, I do understand what's going on here, but I can't sell you that Grey Goose because I can't accept either of these.
You keep saying this, and I understand that it is your store's policy and as an employee you must follow it, but one store's policy does not affect the legality of the temporary paper ID.

Your store could require an attestation with a wax seal from the governor if it so chose, but that doesn't mean that other stores won't accept temporary paper IDs and it doesn't change the fact that it is a legal document.
  #202  
Old 06-09-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
You keep saying this, and I understand that it is your store's policy and as an employee you must follow it, but one store's policy does not affect the legality of the temporary paper ID.

Your store could require an attestation with a wax seal from the governor if it so chose, but that doesn't mean that other stores won't accept temporary paper IDs and it doesn't change the fact that it is a legal document.
Ok. So what has your experience at other stores been? Do they accept the paper license?
  #203  
Old 06-09-2019, 11:10 PM
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Your store could require an attestation with a wax seal from the governor if it so chose, but that doesn't mean that other stores won't accept temporary paper IDs and it doesn't change the fact that it is a legal document.
No, but the fact that it's a legal document doesn't change the fact that it's useless at stores or anyplace else that requires unexpired photo ID - which is everywhere in my experience. Either no ID is necessary at all, or the ID shown must have a photo and be unexpired. The unexpired part really makes no sense- I can take my expired license to DMV , pay the fee and be issued a new license of the same type ( standard, Real ID or enhanced) without providing any additional proof as long as it less than two years since the expiration date but one day after it's expired it's no good to buy beer.
  #204  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:46 AM
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As I have said - the paper copy of the driver's license works perfectly fine as a driver's license. But that is all that it is. For it to serve other ID functions it must conform to certain requirements and a black-and-white paper copy does not meet those requirements.

No different than an unreal license being perfectly fine for driving purposes but not meeting the requirements to make it a RealID license.

Since the penalties for screwing up even a little bit, even unintentionally, on an ID-requiring transaction are harsh for the seller no one is willing to take a risk for those. Not the company/employer which can lose the right to sell those items, and certainly not the front-line cashier who, where I work, at a minimum lose their job on first offense with no recourse (and also lose unemployment benefits) and can face legal problems from it.
  #205  
Old 06-10-2019, 08:41 AM
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No, but the fact that it's a legal document doesn't change the fact that it's useless at stores or anyplace else that requires unexpired photo ID
I always renew mine at least a couple of weeks before it runs out, just in case there's some sort of holdup. So probably my old one would still have worked at stores; especially presuming that if all they do is look at it, and if I'd just pulled out the old one and not mentioned the slip of paper I had behind it in the wallet, a store would have no way of telling that I'd already gotten the new one.
  #206  
Old 06-10-2019, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I always renew mine at least a couple of weeks before it runs out, just in case there's some sort of holdup. So probably my old one would still have worked at stores; especially presuming that if all they do is look at it, and if I'd just pulled out the old one and not mentioned the slip of paper I had behind it in the wallet, a store would have no way of telling that I'd already gotten the new one.
Sure, an unexpired, photo license would work even if you have already renewed it. And it's a good idea to renew before expiration for just this reason. But if you only have the paper, non-photo temporary license (perhaps because your wallet with your license was lost or stolen and you needed to replace it, not renew it) , don't expect anyplace requiring ID to accept it. Because IME, none of them will.
  #207  
Old 06-10-2019, 04:07 PM
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I always renew mine at least a couple of weeks before it runs out, just in case there's some sort of holdup. So probably my old one would still have worked at stores; especially presuming that if all they do is look at it, and if I'd just pulled out the old one and not mentioned the slip of paper I had behind it in the wallet, a store would have no way of telling that I'd already gotten the new one.
I don't care if you do "slip" and show me your new paper license - if your old plastic license is unexpired you can use that for any transaction I am assisting you the customer in completing.

We did once have a woman with an old, unexpired license, a new paper license, and a credit card whose billing address had been changed to that of the new license - we couldn't accept the paper license as ID, and the address on the plastic license did not match the one on the credit card account. She was VERY upset. Well, sorry - we were actually pretty sure she was on the level but there was nothing we could do - the rules were very clear. I hear she complained all the way up to corporate headquarters, but I dodn't think they were willing to make an exception for her.

But as proof of age? Yeah, the old license would have worked just fine because we don't need or bother with the address for that.
  #208  
Old 06-10-2019, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
As I have said - the paper copy of the driver's license works perfectly fine as a driver's license. But that is all that it is. For it to serve other ID functions it must conform to certain requirements and a black-and-white paper copy does not meet those requirements.

No different than an unreal license being perfectly fine for driving purposes but not meeting the requirements to make it a RealID license.

Since the penalties for screwing up even a little bit, even unintentionally, on an ID-requiring transaction are harsh for the seller no one is willing to take a risk for those. Not the company/employer which can lose the right to sell those items, and certainly not the front-line cashier who, where I work, at a minimum lose their job on first offense with no recourse (and also lose unemployment benefits) and can face legal problems from it.
Your state doesn't have a defense provision like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Va. Code 6-3-22 (after providing it is illegal to sell alcohol to a person under age 21)
(b) It shall be a defense to a violation of subdivision (1), subsection (a) of this section if the seller shows that the purchaser:

(1) Produced written evidence which showed his or her age to be at least the required age for purchase and which bore a physical description of the person named on the writing which reasonably described the purchaser; or

(2) Produced evidence of other facts that reasonably indicated at the time of sale that the purchaser was at least the required age.

Last edited by UltraVires; 06-10-2019 at 04:56 PM.
  #209  
Old 06-10-2019, 06:50 PM
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We did once have a woman with an old, unexpired license, a new paper license, and a credit card whose billing address had been changed to that of the new license - we couldn't accept the paper license as ID, and the address on the plastic license did not match the one on the credit card account. She was VERY upset. Well, sorry - we were actually pretty sure she was on the level but there was nothing we could do - the rules were very clear. I hear she complained all the way up to corporate headquarters, but I dodn't think they were willing to make an exception for her.

But as proof of age? Yeah, the old license would have worked just fine because we don't need or bother with the address for that.
I don't understand this. She tried to pay with a credit card and you asked for her ID? And then you somehow knew what the billing address was on the credit card, and then denied her because the billing address didn't match the old photo ID?
  #210  
Old 06-10-2019, 09:24 PM
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My company allows holders of their company credit card to make purchases without the physical card under limited conditions. Among other conditions, said customer must produce an ID with their name and address on it - both of which have to match what is on the account. This can go awry in several ways, such as mis-matching addresses due to a recent move. Also, while one member of married couple might loan the card to the other partner, that partner would not be able to use the no-card option because the name on their ID would not match the name on the account.

Cashiers can't call up the name and address information, but we can type what we see on the ID into the system. Since the card is owned by the store the store computers including the cash registers, have access to the card database. The system then tries to match the two. If they don't match it won't complete the transaction.
  #211  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:14 PM
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Interesting to see the requirement for an SSN card. While I still have both my SIN cards (Canadian equivalent of the SSN card), my 50-year-old original and the second one issued when I worked in the issuing office and they wanted to test a new imprint machine, most people wouldn't. Currently, you are not even given a card when you apply, just a letter informing you of the number you have been issued.

At one point the SIN regulations specifically stated that the number MUST be used for anything related to income tax or social insurance programs, but could NOT be legally required for any other purpose, and was NOT a valid form of ID. (This may still be the case, but it is several decades since I needed to be up to date on the legal issues.)

I suspect the US driver's licence requirement is because it is being used as an ersatz national ID number in various federal and state databases, using all the other ID to validate the SSN since there is no real validation when the SSN is issued.
  #212  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:26 PM
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At one point the SIN regulations specifically stated that the number MUST be used for anything related to income tax or social insurance programs, but could NOT be legally required for any other purpose, and was NOT a valid form of ID. (This may still be the case, but it is several decades since I needed to be up to date on the legal issues.).
Decades ago the same was true of the SSN in the USA.
  #213  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
My company allows holders of their company credit card to make purchases without the physical card under limited conditions. Among other conditions, said customer must produce an ID with their name and address on it - both of which have to match what is on the account. This can go awry in several ways, such as mis-matching addresses due to a recent move. Also, while one member of married couple might loan the card to the other partner, that partner would not be able to use the no-card option because the name on their ID would not match the name on the account.

Cashiers can't call up the name and address information, but we can type what we see on the ID into the system. Since the card is owned by the store the store computers including the cash registers, have access to the card database. The system then tries to match the two. If they don't match it won't complete the transaction.
Ah, thanks for the info. Your company have a lot of ID/credit card fraud? The rules you have been posting seem overly ridiculous.
  #214  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:18 AM
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Ah, thanks for the info. Your company have a lot of ID/credit card fraud? The rules you have been posting seem overly ridiculous.
I don't think it's ridiculous. Most stores won't allow you to make purchases without the physical card under any circumstances. Broomstick's store wants to make sure that when they let someone do this that they are charging the correct John Smith's account - which they will know by the matching address. It's very unlikely that the customer will have the account number but not the card , so the only way to distinguish between the multiple John Smiths is by using personal information such as birthday, SSN, phone number or address. It's not about ID fraud - it's about my purchases being charged to my account rather than to my cousin with the same name.
  #215  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:25 AM
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Yep. From Thanksgiving through January 1 each store in the chain can have losses to credit card fraud alone in the tens of thousands per month (we also have outright theft, employee theft, counterfeit money, quick-change artists, and a dozen other schemes going on in the same time frame). Granted, the same stores are making multi-millions in that same month, but it's more than worth it to try to minimize these losses. It's a constant arms-race between store security and the bad guys. The losses would be at least an order of magnitude greater if we didn't take steps to combat it.

Sure, if someone makes a fraudulent purposes with your card YOU don't have to pay for it... but someone does. Sometimes, that someone is the store the purchase was made from.

Then there are the hackers - a local competitor got hit with something that completely shut down their stores. All of them. Completely. Which resulted in some amazingly good sales days for us but was devastating to the other corporation.

Really, it's enough to scare a budding entrepreneur back into wage-slavery.

By the way - this level of theft/fraud/etc. is a NORMAL amount for a big retail store. This is what EVERY big box store has to deal with, every single day. Also a lot of smaller businesses.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-11-2019 at 10:27 AM.
  #216  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:28 AM
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I don't think it's ridiculous. Most stores won't allow you to make purchases without the physical card under any circumstances. Broomstick's store wants to make sure that when they let someone do this that they are charging the correct John Smith's account - which they will know by the matching address. It's very unlikely that the customer will have the account number but not the card , so the only way to distinguish between the multiple John Smiths is by using personal information such as birthday, SSN, phone number or address. It's not about ID fraud - it's about my purchases being charged to my account rather than to my cousin with the same name.
Yeah - "I'm Sue Schmoo. Here's my photo ID. My address is 123 Main street. Thanks!"
  #217  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
I always renew mine at least a couple of weeks before it runs out, just in case there's some sort of holdup. So probably my old one would still have worked at stores; especially presuming that if all they do is look at it, and if I'd just pulled out the old one and not mentioned the slip of paper I had behind it in the wallet, a store would have no way of telling that I'd already gotten the new one.
Sure, an unexpired, photo license would work even if you have already renewed it. And it's a good idea to renew before expiration for just this reason. But if you only have the paper, non-photo temporary license (perhaps because your wallet with your license was lost or stolen and you needed to replace it, not renew it) , don't expect anyplace requiring ID to accept it. Because IME, none of them will.
It all depends on what you are trying to use the ID for, who you are dealing with, and will vary from state to state. I know that in Tennessee, for example, a valid ID is required for ALL retail alcohol sales. The Alcohol Beverage Commission in most states will allow a "Valid" drivers license as proper ID. I believe some may require a "picture ID" as well.

Most states will not allow you to have two valid driver licenses. I know that in Texas, when you renew your license, they will take a pair of scissors and cut off the word "TEXAS" at the top where it says "TEXAS Drivers License" and/or the State Seal. I asked why one time and was told, "Because you cannot have two valid licenses. You can still use it as an ID, but you need the paper one to have a valid driver's license. You will receive your new license in the mail in one to three weeks."

So, the way I understand it, an expired photo ID driver's license and a new paper license would work for purchasing alcohol, in most (if not all) states. That doesn't mean every store must honor it. Any store can refuse to sell alcohol to anyone if they believe that person is underage or that their ID is not accurate. You don't have a right to buy alcohol. As the penalty for selling to minors has become much stiffer in recent years, it would not surprise me to find some stores have policies that would not allow the cashier to accept a paper license. In this case, it isn't the law, but the store's policy and if you really need a drink, you can probably just go to the next store to get your fix.

Last edited by excavating (for a mind); 06-11-2019 at 11:03 AM. Reason: vaidity, validity...
  #218  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:48 AM
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In this case, it isn't the law, but the store's policy and if you really need a drink, you can probably just go to the next store to get your fix.
That's my point - even if it's "store policy" in my experience you can't go to the next store. Because (again in my experience) they all have the same policy.
  #219  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:58 PM
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That's my point - even if it's "store policy" in my experience you can't go to the next store. Because (again in my experience) they all have the same policy.
In my neighborhood, in Brooklyn, there are three of the big chain drug stores within a couple of square blocks. There's a CVS, a Rite Aid, and two Duane Reades. Which is ridiculous, but that's capitalism, I guess.

If I buy beer at one of them, here's how it goes:

Anyway, the Rite Aid always requires ID. Current ID, can't use an expired licence. No exceptions whatsoever, no matter if you've been shopping there for ten years, no matter if you are (like me) 59 years old and look every minute of it. No exceptions at all. And it has to be a drivers license, or a passport. They wil not accept the NYC ID card.

The Duane Reades pretty much never ask me for ID.

The CVS will sometimes ask for ID, but they're fine with an expired license. As long as I show them something, they seem to be happy.
  #220  
Old 06-11-2019, 03:59 PM
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On the paper temporary license topic, I recently renewed my license. I live in a non-compliant state, but I think all the requirements have been implemented except the data-sharing one. I was renewing before the old one expired. They gave me the paper license, punched a hole in my old plastic one, and gave it back to me as well. I'm not sure what would have happened if I had needed to show ID with that. The old license was unexpired, but had a hole punched in it. I don't know if people who scrutinize IDs professionally would take that to mean it was no longer valid.

The DMV person did explain that the paper license was basically to satisfy the requirements that you carry your license, and would not necessarily work for any other purposes.

I also recently learned that my state is going to comply with the data-sharing requirement for the 2020 deadline. They will give the option of a RealID license or a regular one. If that means keeping a regular one keeps my info out of the national database, I'll probably just use my passport for flying. That database is such a rich target for hackers.
  #221  
Old 06-11-2019, 04:01 PM
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TSA require your U.S. driver's license to have a star to fly in 2020...


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Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
In my neighborhood, in Brooklyn, there are three of the big chain drug stores within a couple of square blocks. There's a CVS, a Rite Aid, and two Duane Reades. Which is ridiculous, but that's capitalism, I guess.



If I buy beer at one of them, here's how it goes:



Anyway, the Rite Aid always requires ID. Current ID, can't use an expired licence. No exceptions whatsoever, no matter if you've been shopping there for ten years, no matter if you are (like me) 59 years old and look every minute of it. No exceptions at all. And it has to be a drivers license, or a passport. They wil not accept the NYC ID card.



The Duane Reades pretty much never ask me for ID.



The CVS will sometimes ask for ID, but they're fine with an expired license. As long as I show them something, they seem to be happy.


I knew I left a qualifier out - some places want ID from everyone including my 78 year old mother while others are more reasonable and only ask for ID from people who seem under a certain age. But the store/restaurant/bar that will accept an expired license or one without a photo is something I’ve never seen - although since you say they only sometimes ask you, perhaps they accept it because the store policy doesn’t actually require 59 year old you to show anything.

Last edited by doreen; 06-11-2019 at 04:03 PM.
  #222  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:28 PM
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As I understand it the reason many places won't accept an expired license for alcohol purchases is because sometimes kids make fake IDs by altering someone else's old expired legitimate ID.
  #223  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:36 PM
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As I understand it the reason many places won't accept an expired license for alcohol purchases is because sometimes kids make fake IDs by altering someone else's old expired legitimate ID.
How is this different than just altering someone's unexpired ID and the original person just gets a new one by saying "I lost mine"?
  #224  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:35 PM
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And if the kids can successfully alter an expired ID, why couldn't they also change the expiration date on it? Rejecting expired IDs for this reason doesn't seem to make sense.
  #225  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:03 AM
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Our registers can scan the bar code. If the license is expired we get a buzz and the words "license expired" show up on our register screen. So modifying an expired license wouldn't do much good. But, if you get a new license before the old one expires, keep the old one, then modify it the bar code scan would say it's a legit license and not expired, which might get you through the screening process.

It's a bit like when counterfeiters bleach a legitimate bill (often a one or a ten) and then print the images for a $100 on it. If you use one of those markers on it that change color on bogus bills the mark will declare the money legitimate because it's official money paper... but the watermark won't match the ink or the ribbon/stripe that declares the denomination of the bill.
  #226  
Old 06-12-2019, 05:38 PM
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And the mess goes on...

I went to the BMV today to get my driver's license corrected. The twit I got kept saying "you can't do that, you can't do that, you can't use a divorce decree for that."

IT'S NOT A DIVORCE DECREE YOU NINNY!

The end result was not one, not two, but FIVE people standing around looking at a legal document with the supervisor saying "That's not a divorce decree, and yes she can." Then she told me I had to go to the social security administration first and get my name clarified there, THEN I could change my driver's license. I'm like "bwuh?" Because what they changed my name to is NOT what the SSA has. And of course the local SSA closes early on Wednesdays.



So the government STILL has four different versions of my name, STILL wants all my ID's to be consistent, but depending on which part of government I'm dealing with they all want their version to be correct.

Which is why I went to court.

And now we're back to morons staffing the counters at the BMV who don't understand the different between a "divorce decree" and a non-marriage related "court order". Hey, bitch TRY READING THE FUCKING DOCUMENT. It's less that two full pages of double-spaced text. It's neither long nor difficult to read.

I'm not thrilled with having to go to yet another office, but I understand there is a process to be followed here. I'm resigned to that. It's the fucking morons who can't be bothered to read what the hell is right in front of them that makes furious.



Oh, and two people in front of me in line was a young man (I'm guessing between 20 and 30) who discovered upon trying to renew his license that his birth certificate doesn't agree with the name he thought was his and grew up with... just starting the journey I'm still slogging through.

The judge I was in front of today mentioned this becoming more and more common

I imagine when the hard deadline hits in 2020 is when this really hits the fan, when people discover they can no longer get into airports or government buildings and the like. Which is really going to play havoc in locations where both the local/state/Federal courtrooms are all in the same building, which means people trying to get this resolved may well be screwed because they won't be physically allowed into a courtroom to try to resolve this issue when that route is needed.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-12-2019 at 05:43 PM.
  #227  
Old 06-12-2019, 06:48 PM
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Have you thought about going to a different BMV that isn't staffed by morons?
  #228  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:21 PM
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Have you thought about going to a different BMV that isn't staffed by morons?
So how are guys in Germany going to help her out with an Indiana issue?
  #229  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:25 PM
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So how are guys in Germany going to help her out with an Indiana issue?
They could provide people with awesome rahmschnitzel while they are waiting in line?
  #230  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:12 PM
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Have you thought about going to a different BMV that isn't staffed by morons?
That WAS the branch "not staffed by morons"!

Apparently, I got the "token moron" they hired. To be fair, the supervisor at least has some brain cells.

I am getting very annoyed at this whole mess.
  #231  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:21 PM
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Oh, and two people in front of me in line was a young man (I'm guessing between 20 and 30) who discovered upon trying to renew his license that his birth certificate doesn't agree with the name he thought was his and grew up with... just starting the journey I'm still slogging through.
This same thing happened to a friend of mine a couple of years ago (before the RealID thing).

He moved from New York to New Jersey. He went to get a Jersey license. His NY license, obtained decades earlier, when standards were looser, and renewed many times since then, had an Anglicized version of his birth name. Jersey insisted that his licence match his birth certificate, and that he had to fix his New York licence first, since NJ was giving him a license based on some kind of reciprocity with NY or something.

It was a nightmare for him -- took him months to get straightened out.
  #232  
Old 06-12-2019, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintly Loser View Post
This same thing happened to a friend of mine a couple of years ago (before the RealID thing).

He moved from New York to New Jersey. He went to get a Jersey license. His NY license, obtained decades earlier, when standards were looser, and renewed many times since then, had an Anglicized version of his birth name. Jersey insisted that his licence match his birth certificate, and that he had to fix his New York licence first, since NJ was giving him a license based on some kind of reciprocity with NY or something.

It was a nightmare for him -- took him months to get straightened out.
I don't understand situations like this. Couldn't he just say "I lost my NY license"? Or just say "I don't have a NY license"?
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:34 PM
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I don't understand situations like this. Couldn't he just say "I lost my NY license"? Or just say "I don't have a NY license"?
Then he'd have to go through the testing again- which for some people I know would be harder than fixing the name issue. I know people who haven't parallel parked in 20 years.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:42 PM
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Then he'd have to go through the testing again- which for some people I know would be harder than fixing the name issue. I know people who haven't parallel parked in 20 years.
Spending an hour re-learning how to parallel park is more difficult than spending months figuring out a name issue?
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:30 AM
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It's not just getting a license - the situation described regarding New York vs. New Jersey licenses means he'd also have to change his name on everything else or else spend the rest of his time in new Jersey explaining over and over again why his primary ID (driver's license) doesn't match anything else.

The other thing is that once he states he has/had a New York license New Jersey isn't going to let him back track and say he lost it. Even if they accept he lost it, it sounds like they'd still require him to follow what's on his birth certificate, or maybe require him to get a new license in New York before getting the New Jersey license.

What it comes down to is that if you yourself have never had a problem like this you have no clue how deep the rabbit hole can go.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-13-2019 at 03:32 AM.
  #236  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:46 AM
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Spending an hour re-learning how to parallel park is more difficult than spending months figuring out a name issue?
No, scheduling and taking multiple road tests can take the same months as fixing a name issue , the parallel parking was just an example. Most people have accumulated bad habits over years of driving and I doubt they could pass a test all that easily.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:52 AM
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duplicate

Last edited by doreen; 06-13-2019 at 05:53 AM.
  #238  
Old 06-13-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
It's not just getting a license - the situation described regarding New York vs. New Jersey licenses means he'd also have to change his name on everything else or else spend the rest of his time in new Jersey explaining over and over again why his primary ID (driver's license) doesn't match anything else.

The other thing is that once he states he has/had a New York license New Jersey isn't going to let him back track and say he lost it. Even if they accept he lost it, it sounds like they'd still require him to follow what's on his birth certificate, or maybe require him to get a new license in New York before getting the New Jersey license.

What it comes down to is that if you yourself have never had a problem like this you have no clue how deep the rabbit hole can go.
Well, I have some sort of clue. But it just sounds like people don't want to use the name on their birth certificate, and when it causes problems, all of a sudden they can't do anything and it takes months of effort.
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Old 06-13-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Have you thought about going to a different BMV that isn't staffed by morons?
Around here, we get one per county. Did you think there was one on every street corner?

ETA: lots of people have for twenty or thirty or forty or fifty years not using the name as on their birth certificate. Some people are having trouble getting through their heads that this is something that didn't use to matter. Now, suddenly, every one of a batch of different IDs has to match down to the exact spelling.

Last edited by thorny locust; 06-13-2019 at 08:51 AM.
  #240  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:08 AM
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No, scheduling and taking multiple road tests can take the same months as fixing a name issue , the parallel parking was just an example. Most people have accumulated bad habits over years of driving and I doubt they could pass a test all that easily.
Many years ago I received two speeding tickets 364 days apart, resulting in enough points during a year for me to have to retake my driving test. I was in an awful mood that day.

Pennsylvania didn't have a seat-belt law, so i did not wear mine. Further, I had music playing (which the state cop politely requested I turn down so that we could hear each other) and I had a large coffee that sipped throughout my test.

When I entered the 3 point turn area, I actually passed two drivers ahead of me (I turned and left the area before them) so at the end we were out of order. He should have failed me for being a jerk. Instead, he told me I obviously knew how to drive and I just needed to slow down a bit. Haven't had a speeding ticket in the 30 years since that happened.
  #241  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:39 AM
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Around here, we get one per county. Did you think there was one on every street corner?
Right. And let me guess, around your parts, you can only go to the one in the county you live in, right?
  #242  
Old 06-13-2019, 10:23 AM
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I'm not actually sure whether I could go to another county or not. You used to be able to renew the license by mail in; but you couldn't do that for real ID, and nobody seems to know whether it'll be possible to renew the real ID by mail in or not.

In any case, going to another county would be a significant drive, and a significant chunk out of my day; and might only run into the same problems. This would be a major hassle for most people, and an effectively impossible one for some. Not everybody can take that much time off during working hours without risking losing their jobs, and/or risking not being able to pay essential bills due to the loss of income.

Nobody, repeat nobody, is saying that this process is difficult for everybody. It wasn't, as it turned out, difficult for me. But I really don't understand this insistence on the part of some people that it must be easy for everyone. It's not; and it's difficult to the point of near impossibility for some.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:08 PM
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Well, I have some sort of clue. But it just sounds like people don't want to use the name on their birth certificate, and when it causes problems, all of a sudden they can't do anything and it takes months of effort.
There are also changing social rules.

For example, about 100 years ago, when a woman got married she could (and often would) use "Mrs" in front of her husband's name. For example, Sally Jones married John Smith and thenceforth might use "Mrs. John Smith" on legal documents and all she would have to do if asked to prove her right to do this is produce a marriage license. This was common in some parts of the US through at least the 1970's.

Let's say Mrs. John Smith, who is now in her 90's, goes in to get her driver's license/ID renewed. Keep in mind, she has used Mrs. John Smith for, perhaps, seventy years without problems. Now she is told no, you can't do that, you shouldn't have been doing that. Now, lady, what's your REAL name? Is it

1) Ms. Sally Jones
2) Ms. Sally Smith
3) Ms. Sally Smith-Jones
4) Ms. Sally Jones-Smith
5) Ms. Sally Jones Smith

At which point the old lady says "but - I've been Mrs. John Smith since 1958!" And the clerk says "No, you haven't. That's never been your legal name. What's your legal name?"

But Mrs. Smith doesn't have ANY documentation as options 2-5, and hasn't used #1 since 1958 before she got married. NOTHING is in anything that would be accepted as a legal name by the DMV now. So the clerk asks to see the court order authorizing a legal name change. But Mrs. Smith has never done that - until 2005 she didn't need to do that to legally use Mrs. John Smith.

It's not a matter of losing documents or failing to do something - it's that the rules changed at a certain point, and for people who had live decades, even a half century, under the old rules this is a problem because NONE of their documentation might fit the new rules and going back over decades and perhaps also over multiple states is time consuming, can be expensive, and it very disruptive.

This is a particular problem for women because until very recently (the 1990's as best I recall) there was LOT of social pressure to use a married name. I mean, hell, I hyphenated back at the end of the 1980's and thus did take my husband's name and distinctly recall one incident in a bookstore with a cashier yelling "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, HUH? ISN'T HIS NAME GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU BITCH?" So very nearly EVERY married woman prior to about 1990 did NOT use the name on her birth certificate.

That's a LOT of people.

I went to court (yesterday, in fact) to establish what my legal name should be. I've already had clerks declaring "You can't do that with a divorce decree!" No, you can't - but it's not a divorce decree, it's a court order. The assumption is still 1) when a woman marries she changes her name and 2) if she changes her name it's due to either divorce or marriage. Well, lesson learned, going forward when I hand over the document I will simultaneously say "This is NOT a divorce decree and has nothing to do with marriage",

On a happier note - when I went to the social security administration today I had no problems, indeed, I found the clerk both friendly and helpful. In addition to updating my legal name she also answered some questions I had about widow's benefits (which I won't be collecting for a few more years) and my own account/benefits. She did say that it was unlikely I'd have problems (my legal name does bear some relationship to the abomination on my RealID) but suggested that carrying a copy of the court document with me until everything was fully updated couldn't hurt.
  #244  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:14 PM
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Right. And let me guess, around your parts, you can only go to the one in the county you live in, right?
I'm fortunate in that my county has several branches from which to chose, but not everyone has that luxury.

At one point my case was bumped up to the state capital in Indianapolis (because I'm just that annoying, I guess No, really, because my case was a bit different than what the branch had seen before and they wanted someone higher up to interpret the rules) So sometimes you wind up going higher than county.... at least in Indiana. Since every state (and DC and Puerto Rico and Guam and...) has a separate department/bureau/whatever of motor vehicles the US is operating under more than 50 different bureaucratic entities for this issue.
  #245  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
There are also changing social rules.

For example, about 100 years ago, when a woman got married she could (and often would) use "Mrs" in front of her husband's name. For example, Sally Jones married John Smith and thenceforth might use "Mrs. John Smith" on legal documents and all she would have to do if asked to prove her right to do this is produce a marriage license. This was common in some parts of the US through at least the 1970's.

Let's say Mrs. John Smith, who is now in her 90's, goes in to get her driver's license/ID renewed. Keep in mind, she has used Mrs. John Smith for, perhaps, seventy years without problems. Now she is told no, you can't do that, you shouldn't have been doing that. Now, lady, what's your REAL name? Is it

1) Ms. Sally Jones
2) Ms. Sally Smith
3) Ms. Sally Smith-Jones
4) Ms. Sally Jones-Smith
5) Ms. Sally Jones Smith

At which point the old lady says "but - I've been Mrs. John Smith since 1958!" And the clerk says "No, you haven't. That's never been your legal name. What's your legal name?"

But Mrs. Smith doesn't have ANY documentation as options 2-5, and hasn't used #1 since 1958 before she got married. NOTHING is in anything that would be accepted as a legal name by the DMV now. So the clerk asks to see the court order authorizing a legal name change. But Mrs. Smith has never done that - until 2005 she didn't need to do that to legally use Mrs. John Smith.

It's not a matter of losing documents or failing to do something - it's that the rules changed at a certain point, and for people who had live decades, even a half century, under the old rules this is a problem because NONE of their documentation might fit the new rules and going back over decades and perhaps also over multiple states is time consuming, can be expensive, and it very disruptive.
The problem is not that she used Mrs. John Smith on legal documents- I've seen enough old bank books , deeds, paychecks, union cards, etc to know that Mrs. John Smith was used socially - those bank books and deeds either said "Mary Smith" or " John Smith and his wife (Mary)" or something similar for deeds. The problem is many women "of a certain age" did not have ID. They didn't need it. They didn't drive, their husbands did. They didn't leave the US so they didn't need passports and they lived fine without any ID - until suddenly, in the last 20 years they began to need ID for all sorts of things, even to ride a bus that passes through a federal office complex. * So now here they are at 75 years old, they got married in 1965 and changed their name and have to track down the certificate over 50 years after the last time they needed it.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=5038228

And it also used to happen for men's first names- government entities used to recognize that Jimmy was a nickname for "James", so if your driver's license said "Jimmy" and your birth certificate said "James", it wasn't a problem. Now, they won't even accept that "Mary Smith" and "Mary A Smith" are the same person.


Quote:
This is a particular problem for women because until very recently (the 1990's as best I recall) there was LOT of social pressure to use a married name. I mean, hell, I hyphenated back at the end of the 1980's and thus did take my husband's name and distinctly recall one incident in a bookstore with a cashier yelling "WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU, HUH? ISN'T HIS NAME GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU BITCH?" So very nearly EVERY married woman prior to about 1990 did NOT use the name on her birth certificate.
And for all the crap I got for not changing my name at all when i got married in 1987, apparently the fact that I didn't even hyphenate prevented people from making up their own name for me.


* https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...toryId=5038228

Last edited by doreen; 06-13-2019 at 05:43 PM.
  #246  
Old 06-13-2019, 05:53 PM
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I'll be happy to say the problem is multi-factorial.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
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- until 2005 she didn't need to do that to legally use Mrs. John Smith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doreen View Post
nd it also used to happen for men's first names- government entities used to recognize that Jimmy was a nickname for "James", so if your driver's license said "Jimmy" and your birth certificate said "James", it wasn't a problem. Now, they won't even accept that "Mary Smith" and "Mary A Smith" are the same person.
Until 2005, or whenever, you didn't need to do anything to legally use any name whatsoever, as long as you weren't doing so for purposes of fraud.

I've been using, for something over forty years, as my first name, a version of my middle name that's different enough that many people don't recognize it as being the same name as the Anglicized middle name on my birth certificate. I wish, now, that I'd gotten it legally changed back when I had one bank account, one library card, and a SSN number, and absolutely nothing else it would have needed changing on. It's way too complicated now -- and, from what I'm hearing, it might not have helped much if I had, because I don't know that I'd have bothered coming up with a middle name to use. Some of my ID -- library cards, name associated with the farm for other than tax purposes, etc. -- uses the name I actually use. Some of it uses the name the passport and SSN and -- luckily -- the driver's license have on them. I could pull out of my wallet right now at least two pieces of ID under either name. Until, maybe it was 2005, two or three different banks that I used during that time were perfectly happy recognizing both names as being the same person. It didn't matter. Not only did men whose birth certificates said James use Jimmy, some of them used Bud, or whatever nickname they'd picked up along the way and become known by. Maybe Mary A Smith, for reasons only known to her family, had become known as Susan back when she was six. Bud and Susan might just be Bud and Susan their whole lives; up until the paper had to put the nickname in the obituaries because otherwise nobody would have any idea who they were talking about.
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:15 PM
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SSN number
Gaah. Way too late to edit. This post brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department.
  #249  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:51 AM
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Just because...

... as of yesterday, the document that let's me into an airport (my RealID) and the document that let's me actually take the controls of an airplane (my pilot's license) once again officially match. Also got my address updated with the FAA.

YAY!

Only two banks and my pension plan to go and I'm all caught up! Banks will be either today or tomorrow, I'll the get the information to my pension folks this week as well. Well, except for the utilities and the lease, but those folks don't seem to care very much as long as the checks I send them don't bounce.

For the FAA and the name I had to go in person to a flight standards district office. Apparently the FSDO in South Bend, IN no longer exists (it's been a few years since I needed to contact one) so I had a choice of either DuPage, Illinois or Indianapolis, IN. Although Indy is a bit further by miles the actual time to get there is the same or shorter when you take into account Tollway traffic. I decided more miles but less stress was the winner so Indy it was.

It's not like I could complain. I mean, seriously, you're a pilot and you're complaining about traveling?

Anyhow - took a friend to keep me company on the long ride and after my visit to the FSDO we visited the Indianapolis Speedway and the Museum which turned out to be a fun trip. Also, a mutual friend is a former Indy driver (took 3rd in 1960) so we had some fun looking him up in the Hall of Fame. (Damn, that track is HUGE! - TV does not truly convey the scale of it.)

I have officially made lemonade out of a lemon.

Also, the FAA guys said they've been seeing a lot of folks with this sort of problem coming into their offices. Despite the reputation of bureaucracies it was straightforward - dare I say easy? - to get this done. Of course, the fact I arrived with all needed documentation, copies of same, and the proper form properly filled out helped a whole lot, too. I think that's part of why this whole thing stung so hard - normally I show up crazy-prepared and it works. With the RealID it didn't.

While my shiny, new, updated FAA pilot's license is actually another "crappy paper license" as referred to by someone pages earlier, it IS good for flying airplanes. If I had the money to do so, which I don't at the moment. But, dammit, I earned it and I intend to keep it because maybe one day I'll be able to get myself back in the air. The actual shiny new plastic one should arrive in the mail in the next couple weeks, meanwhile, the paper one is good for the next six months.

Anyhow, my saga is winding down. I do feel bad for the folks who are getting caught up in this along with me.
  #250  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:03 PM
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I went last month to renew my drivers' license. I took my first test and got my license in July of 1977. I have not lived in another state since that time. I wanted to renew on the website like I did last time, but the rules state that I cannot. I showed up at TxDOT with my current license, proof of insurance, social security card, and the filled out application. I've had the same address since 2004.

When I got in line, the form checker came to me and reviewed my documents. She asked where my birth certificate was. I said "Your website clearly states that one is not needed if it's already on file." I don't have a certified copy of my bc, the county where I was born requires you pick them up in person, have a family member pick it up, or hire a lawyer (350 miles away), and I knew I'd given them a certified copy when I'd changed my name back to my birth name.

So they pull me aside and start going through my files. "When did you move to the US? When did you become a citizen?" "The day I was born. I was born in Dawson Co, Texas."

Mind you, my license already HAD the gold star on it. I've gone through this rigamarole before. Eventually, they find my bc in the file and seem very surprised that I was telling the truth: born in the USA fifty some odd years ago. WTF? It was far more of a hassle than I expected. And far less of a hassle than I would have had to go through if that sucker hadn't already been on file. And remember, this was after 42 years of having a drivers' license that already had the gold star on it. Ridiculous.
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