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  #151  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:38 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I hate to be all militant black girl, but the statement that "women love long-haired men" guys sounds so...white. Where does this notion leave women who love black men? Where does that leave femmy guys who don't do the long-haired thing?

So I'm wondering how much of your generalizations apply only to a subset of white folks, AHunter3. How much of your feminism is intersectional?
I don't know what it is, but this doesn't feel like feminism to me.

Not saying I doubt that AHunter3 is a feminist. What I doubt is that this particular line of thinking is really feminist... Or feminist as I personally would define it, anyway, as targeted toward gender equality. The fact that gender is part of the discussion is insufficient for it to qualify.

It's more like PUA for people who aren't assholes.
  #152  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:41 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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That sounded meaner than intended. I'm really grappling to make sense of this.
  #153  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:46 AM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Maybe what AHunter's guide is missing is illustrations.
  #154  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:49 AM
you with the face you with the face is offline
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
I hate to be all militant black girl, but the statement that "women love long-haired men" guys sounds so...white.
I’m fairly certain what we’re seeing is not ethno-centrism as much as AHunter3-centrism. He has a very difficult time separating his subjective experience from the experience of others.

So with the hair thing, because he’s experienced women admiring his hair, this means women love long hair. All the hordes of women not all that enthralled with long hair fall outside his awareness because they don’t advertise their preferences. End result is these women don’t factor into his generalities.

Last edited by you with the face; 01-13-2018 at 09:50 AM.
  #155  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:25 AM
monstro monstro is offline
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Not if your advice has them doing things that come unnatural to them, all in the attempt to mirror what women do.
All in the attempt to mirror what they perceive women to be doing. If someone is consciously modeling their behavior after someone else, then I wonder what keeps them from becoming laughable caricatures of that model.

I had a coworker a few years back. She was not the girliest girl in the world, but I would categorize her as a feminine person. And boy, was she a big ole flirt. She flirted with everyone--male and female--because she craved attention and wanted to be liked. She would actually cry when she thought she wasn't liked (which drove me up the wall, but whatever). And she was largely successful in being liked. But her flirt game would have been a horrible role model for someone like me. Like, I love to laugh, but I'm not going to laugh at every little thing someone does just to get them to like me. I don't do the fake-laugh very well. And a big part of her flirt game was laughing and saying "Oh, (insert guy's name), you are sooo FUNNY!" Often said with a playful slap on the arm.

If I had to generalize, I would say the ability to gush in a sincere-sounding way is a hallmark feature of the feminine flirt game. That's not to say that AHunter3's other features aren't a part of it, but those aren't the things that come to my mind when I think of a flirtatious woman.

And yet, I would never tell someone (femmy guy or femmy woman) that they should do the big laughing "you are soooo funny!" thing to signal their romantic interest. Because it seems to me that if you have be consciously taught something like this, then that means it's not a natural thing for you. Which means it's not "you".

At any rate, there are so many ways to be a feminine flirt. Some of them overtly feminine and others much more subtle (which I suspect would probably be more suitable to the average femmy guy anyway). The OP doesn't indicate any awareness of this diversity. Notice how the "femmy boy" gets his own gendered box, but "women" are treated as a homogenous group.
  #156  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:29 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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A fair extrapolation would be "be aware of your best features, the ones that have attracted attention in the past, and feel confident about those and draw some attention to them".
Here's a major problem with your writing: the original blog entry doesn't actually say that anywhere, and pretty much the only way that someone is going to extrapolate that message from what you wrote is if they already know it. Also, while the extrapolated bit it true and somewhat useful, it's not really that deep of advice - there really should be more meat behind as many words as you wrote than a short relatively generic piece of advice that also doesn't have anything in particular to do with being a 'Femmy' boy in the first place.
  #157  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:29 AM
monstro monstro is offline
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It's more like PUA for people who aren't assholes.
Even though the OP puts in a disclaimer about this, I agree with you.

However, I don't know if it is possible to deliver a message like "Do this thing because women love this thing" without it sounding PUA-like.
  #158  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:34 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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The OP doesn't indicate any awareness of this diversity. Notice how the "femmy boy" gets his own gendered box, but "women" are treated as a homogenous group.
Yep. A homogeneous group that he ascribes characteristics to that he has or wants to have, so then he says he's a girl because he has or wants to have those characteristics.
  #159  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:21 AM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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So is the purpose of the blog to help other people like you? Is it that you're positioning yourself as someone who has overcome these struggles and has advice to hand down?

If that's the case, what do you think is unique about your advice? Do you think this is something non-gender conforming people routinely struggle with? Do you perceive that they struggle with it in the exact way that you have? I have no idea what the answer is, I'm just trying to understand the purpose of the writing.
  #160  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:40 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
So is the purpose of the blog to help other people like you? Is it that you're positioning yourself as someone who has overcome these struggles and has advice to hand down?

If that's the case, what do you think is unique about your advice?
As opposed to the huge library of other personal testimonials and recommendations by male femininine folks who don't wish to follow the expectations attached to their biological sex in our society?


Quote:
Do you think this is something non-gender conforming people routinely struggle with? Do you perceive that they struggle with it in the exact way that you have? I have no idea what the answer is, I'm just trying to understand the purpose of the writing.
Yes, and sort of, in that order.

I've spent 38 years trying to connect with "a community of my people" so that I could get advice from them as well as join my voice to theirs. What I discovered instead is a wasteland of no-voices-heard, with some little oases here and there.

There's the pissy truculent "nice boys" who complain that girls and women say guys should stop being pushy and aggressive about sex but then they get involved with pushy and aggressive guys while ignoring the nice guys. Except guess what, those nice guys aren't organized or speaking with their own voice. We hear of their perspective second-hand, from women complaining about them! (Not that I'd embrace the overall agenda attributed to them or anything but in a certain sense "they are us")

There are individual celebrities who present as feminine but who say very little specific on the topic of what it means to be that way. (It has a lot more octane as a mysterious and understated thing that is exhbited but goes unspoken)

Over the years while trying to speak out or raise consciousness and make this stuff an issue, I've had guys, individuals or a couple or three from a small audience, etc, come up to me and say they've been thinking such things for years but never read or heard any confirmation and therefore didn't know how to put it into words.

It's changing. There are a lot of younger males who identify as nonbinary, as genderqueer (like me), or simply as gender nonconformists. With a few old farts like me joining in.
  #161  
Old 01-13-2018, 12:51 PM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
I don’t think anyone disagrees that straight men and straight women, as groups, have different ways of attracting and communicating interest in and to the opposite sex.
This is hitting the generalization issue that runs through Ahunter3's writing a lot; there are a ton of distinct subcultures of 'straight men' and 'straight women', and they all differ from each other in varying degrees. Do you really think there's no difference in straight people trying to date/hook up at a church picnic vs casual hangout vs singles bar vs swingers club, or neighborhood bar vs college bar vs country bar vs dance club vs fetish club, or setup by parents vs setup by friends vs match.com vs tinder vs craigslist, or high school vs college vs blue collar workers vs white collar workers vs trust funders? You can find groups of straight people that differ from what AHunter3 is pointing to as the norm by more than Ahunter3 differs from it himself!
  #162  
Old 01-13-2018, 02:10 PM
Spice Weasel Spice Weasel is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
As opposed to the huge library of other personal testimonials and recommendations by male femininine folks who don't wish to follow the expectations attached to their biological sex in our society?




Yes, and sort of, in that order.

I've spent 38 years trying to connect with "a community of my people" so that I could get advice from them as well as join my voice to theirs. What I discovered instead is a wasteland of no-voices-heard, with some little oases here and there.

There's the pissy truculent "nice boys" who complain that girls and women say guys should stop being pushy and aggressive about sex but then they get involved with pushy and aggressive guys while ignoring the nice guys. Except guess what, those nice guys aren't organized or speaking with their own voice. We hear of their perspective second-hand, from women complaining about them! (Not that I'd embrace the overall agenda attributed to them or anything but in a certain sense "they are us")

There are individual celebrities who present as feminine but who say very little specific on the topic of what it means to be that way. (It has a lot more octane as a mysterious and understated thing that is exhbited but goes unspoken)

Over the years while trying to speak out or raise consciousness and make this stuff an issue, I've had guys, individuals or a couple or three from a small audience, etc, come up to me and say they've been thinking such things for years but never read or heard any confirmation and therefore didn't know how to put it into words.

It's changing. There are a lot of younger males who identify as nonbinary, as genderqueer (like me), or simply as gender nonconformists. With a few old farts like me joining in.
Well, that's good. That's a pretty clear and worthwhile purpose. I'm glad other people have found it helpful.

My next question would be, what is your purpose for the OP? Is it to solicit feedback? Is it to generate conversation? I notice the responses tend to be all over the place but I'm not really sure what you're looking for.
  #163  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:12 PM
QuickSilver QuickSilver is offline
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My next question would be, what is your purpose for the OP? Is it to solicit feedback? Is it to generate conversation? I notice the responses tend to be all over the place but I'm not really sure what you're looking for.
Attention.
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  #164  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:36 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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Attention.
Yes, publishers want to publish biographies/memoirs from people who already have a social media presence and a rapt following. They want the people with the millions of Instagram and Youtube and Facebook and Twitter followers. And you can't really blame them--sadly, people are going to by vastly more copies of a tome of the deep thoughts of a Khloé Kardashian than they will a book about somebody that cured a disease or designed a microchip or got teased in middle-school. Therefore, the blog posts and the reposts here--so that the publishers will say "well, I've never heard of the guy, but there are a couple of dozen people critiquing his writing style on a message board, and the comments on his blog are pouring in by the ones and twos, let's cut a three-book deal!"
  #165  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:57 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
Well, that's good. That's a pretty clear and worthwhile purpose. I'm glad other people have found it helpful.

My next question would be, what is your purpose for the OP? Is it to solicit feedback? Is it to generate conversation? I notice the responses tend to be all over the place but I'm not really sure what you're looking for.
The OP is one weekly blog post in a long line of blog posts. It probably doesn't a whole lot of sense to ponder its purpose standalone (and for that reason it is admittedly an awkward fit as an OP on the Straight Dope. More about that in a moment).

Previous blog posts over the past months have often elicited comments and questions along the lines of "Hey AHunter3, can you give us some specifics about how your life or situation or experience is different, aside from the internal-mental fact that you think of yourself in this different way?" And along with that were quite a few questions and comments to the effect of "I don't see why a male femme or whatever-you-wanna-call-yourself needs anything from the rest of the world in order to be feminine. You want to speak in a treble register or wear a tutu, go ahead, what do you need from the world, attention and applause or something?"

Well, the "ground zero" of where the difference makes a difference (as I said in the OP itself) is here, in the land of flirting and expressing sexual interest, because on the one hand it's an area where male and female behaviors are pretty polarized and because on the other hand it's not something that just about you, the individual, doing whatever you want, it's about you, the individual, wanting and needing something from other people.

So it's political, the flirting thing. It's something where we, (the admittedly ill defined "we" that I have in mind as discussed above) need a socially shared expectation and would benefit from having it established. Young sissy-femme boykids would benefit from seeing it portrayed in movies and in books and on TV and whatnot; dating-age sissy-femme males would benefit from having a dating scene in which it is not so completely unexpected that some male people do flirt this way, and do so in hopes of meeting the unusual female people who like and respond and are potentially interested in them. Not that it can't work without that preliminary "advertising" (it does; it did for me over the years) but the flirting-etc game depends so much on expectations and let's face it, very few people are expecting the behavior I've described, so that it works at all is actually a little bit amazing.

This blog post fits in against the overall backdrop of the blog posts I've been doing all along — they're all either about me and my book or social issues pertaining to gender and being genderqueer and specifically being a male gender invert and all that.

Now, about its presence on the Straight Dope as an OP: most of my readers are either on Facebook or the Straight Dope. Facebook is designed to let a person paste in a link and it parses the link and vóila, there's an "ad" for the blog post that people can click through to read (or not, and skip it). Facebook has a bunch of "groups" that I am a member of: LGBTQIA and Supporters; GenderQueer Support & Talk; Genderqueers+; Nonbinary Femmes; Gender Outlaws; Transgender Support; LGBTS Allied; LGBTQ Writers; Gender Nonconformist; Non-Binary Gender Pride; etc; so my blog posts are akin to a weekly newspaper column in a student newspaper or something.

The Straight Dope doesn't facilitate parsing links and its culture doesn't support someone just pasting a link. So I asked the moderators around March of last year about the okayness of me echoing my blog posts as OPs here, and was told it was OK as long as they weren't going to just be sales pitches for my book.

The Dope is obviously a much more general-purpose posting environment and I suspect it's become annoying to some to have me recurrently posting on the same general topic (although that's what the plan was all along). I don't have a separate "purpose" in posting my blog posts here as opposed to referencing them elsewhere, other than the fact that more people engage and confront me here so it's a good check against "preaching to the choir" which is a risk when posting such things to Nonbinary Femmes and so on.
  #166  
Old 01-13-2018, 03:59 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Yes, publishers want to publish biographies/memoirs from people who already have a social media presence and a rapt following. They want the people with the millions of Instagram and Youtube and Facebook and Twitter followers. And you can't really blame them--sadly, people are going to by vastly more copies of a tome of the deep thoughts of a Khloé Kardashian than they will a book about somebody that cured a disease or designed a microchip or got teased in middle-school. Therefore, the blog posts and the reposts here--so that the publishers will say "well, I've never heard of the guy, but there are a couple of dozen people critiquing his writing style on a message board, and the comments on his blog are pouring in by the ones and twos, let's cut a three-book deal!"
How true

Well, one does what one can. The blog hasn't transformed me into a media presence, that's for damn sure, but I've enjoyed writing them and a few people read them at any rate, which is more than would be exposed to my ideas and thinking than if I hadn't done a blog.
  #167  
Old 01-13-2018, 04:03 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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This is hitting the generalization issue that runs through Ahunter3's writing a lot; there are a ton of distinct subcultures of 'straight men' and 'straight women', and they all differ from each other in varying degrees. Do you really think there's no difference in straight people trying to date/hook up at a church picnic vs casual hangout vs singles bar vs swingers club, or neighborhood bar vs college bar vs country bar vs dance club vs fetish club, or setup by parents vs setup by friends vs match.com vs tinder vs craigslist, or high school vs college vs blue collar workers vs white collar workers vs trust funders? You can find groups of straight people that differ from what AHunter3 is pointing to as the norm by more than Ahunter3 differs from it himself!
Interesting.

I haven't found that to be true, and I've been to a pretty wide range of venues over the decades. In describing things it's virtually impossible not to generalize, and in generalizing I leave out a lot of variation, but the overall patterns I've described are widespread norms even if the particulars of their expression may differ.
  #168  
Old 01-13-2018, 05:35 PM
raventhief raventhief is online now
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Interesting.

I haven't found that to be true, and I've been to a pretty wide range of venues over the decades. In describing things it's virtually impossible not to generalize, and in generalizing I leave out a lot of variation, but the overall patterns I've described are widespread norms even if the particulars of their expression may differ.
You haven't noticed any difference in flirting depending on venue?

Interesting.

Last edited by raventhief; 01-13-2018 at 05:38 PM.
  #169  
Old 01-13-2018, 09:51 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Interesting.

I haven't found that to be true, and I've been to a pretty wide range of venues over the decades. In describing things it's virtually impossible not to generalize, and in generalizing I leave out a lot of variation, but the overall patterns I've described are widespread norms even if the particulars of their expression may differ.
My experience has been that successful flirting differs strongly by venue because of the type of people at the venue.

I'm rather good at flirting in a few different types of scene. Dangerously good in some cases. But other scenes, not so much, or I'm completely ignored.
  #170  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:17 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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One thing that's really not clear at all from your OP is how successful you are at flirting, regardless of how you developed any technique. If you go out to your favorite spot, can you reliably get someone to show you interest, or part of the time, or rarely? The OP almost reads as if you're a non-human observer trying to categorize how humans go through flirting awareness and certain techniques. And I will say that a couple of the items you list are the secret to my flirting success, especially the eye contact.

But for all that people in here are accusing you of writing "me me me me me me...", I don't see that - instead I'm getting a sense of you being an outside observer in this case.
  #171  
Old 01-13-2018, 10:36 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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You haven't noticed any difference in flirting depending on venue?

Interesting.
Oh, I have. But it's like cerulean over here and morning-glory there and navy hither and teal over yonder and meanwhile in that other context it was aqua but I remember seeing some deep sapphire somewhere or other... and yet it's all blue blue blue blue blue.

I've made some generalizations. Individual specific situations can appear to give the lie to the generalization, but if you look closely it's mostly only to a marginal extent and doesn't really contradict the generalization as generalization.

There are certainly exceptions at the individual level — the more individual the level the more exceptions you'll see —but as is the case with all generalizations it's a forest versus trees thing.
  #172  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:07 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
One thing that's really not clear at all from your OP is how successful you are at flirting, regardless of how you developed any technique. If you go out to your favorite spot, can you reliably get someone to show you interest, or part of the time, or rarely? The OP almost reads as if you're a non-human observer trying to categorize how humans go through flirting awareness and certain techniques. And I will say that a couple of the items you list are the secret to my flirting success, especially the eye contact.

But for all that people in here are accusing you of writing "me me me me me me...", I don't see that - instead I'm getting a sense of you being an outside observer in this case.
Heh! One factor that may be affecting how I come across is that I'm at this point a nearly 60 year old person who is in stable ongoing relationships. And I'm really writing about flirting as an endeavor being tried out by people when they're first entering the fray, which means I'm describing a scene I'm 40 years removed from. Not that I never flirt any more, mind you.

It was very difficult to get any traction in my 20s. I got pretty good at it by my 30s though. Some of it was getting a better sense of who are these women who are most likely to find a guy like me fascinating? Intellectual feminists? Extremely butch women who present like stevedores? Tough minded businesswomen with sharky minds? Self-labeled wanton sluts and dommy women from the BDSM scene with whips in hand? All and none of that, strong women who were spectacularly self-defined, quirky, loner women, women who for one reason or another were looking outside the boxes and didn't play by anyone else's rules.

Sylv replied to my 1980 personal ad in the Albuquerque Journal, which started me on the personal-ad circuit long before the internet — and I'm not sure if personal ads are cheating as far as flirting-success or not —but she responded to how I was in person and found me cute. She was my first ongoing sexually-active adult-type relationship and it lasted 4 years with some interruptions.

I met Joy after a bit of a dry spell in 1985, just making friends with my friend's date in college. They were poly and hence nonexclusive. This was probably my first real success with nonverbal connecting, we were having an entire conversation under the radar while drinking beer and playing cards and talking, without ignoring the other people in the room. And as we left she asked if she could talk to me in private. No passes were made but we verified a really special connection. Our first kiss wasn't until a few weeks later and that's all it was, a kiss, but it confirmed YESS!! I wasn't imagining things... things went on from there and she was my most passionate in-love involvement to date.

Jean was more frontal in a gender-inverty way. We'd been in classes together and she started a conversation, invited me to dinner, then took me to her apartment. I wasn't sure about the speed with which things were progressing and she laughed, "Are you worried that I won't respect you in the morning?" and we got to talking about the gender stuff and all the expectations and restrictions and stuff. We stayed together for about four years.

Marian had been a self-identified lesbian and I met her at an art show where her work was featured and we talked a mile a minute and then made arrangements to go to a different exhibit elsewhere a week later. She was 17 years older (and a lesbian) and so I wasn't thinking of the relationship in those terms but they kind of drifted that way anyhow. She liked how I was and said being a lesbian for her had never been about not finding male bodied attractive. She liked how I was. I was with her for about three years I guess.

My longest relationship was with Dee, the career businesswoman who had never really let anyone get close. She said I was the first person she trusted. We had a very passionate beginning. Oddly, I think the ways in which I was different from guys she had experienced before worked in my favor at first and then against me later. It was a twelve year relationship and anything of that duration is too complicated to thumbnail effectively.

allthegood and I met in 2010. We dated several times over the course of about six weeks with only gradual and slow sexual experimentation. Turned out she'd been advised repeatedly and emphatically by her own friends and advisors to not rush into sex, and was giving that a try, so neither of us was accelerating the process much. But she let me know she found me hot and appealing. I actually started dating her under the misconception that she didn't feel free to pursue a sexual relationship with anyone at this time so I thought of the connection as a platonic friendship (didn't keep me from flirting a bit). Later, she was the person who listened to my longwinded story and summarized the essential point back to me: "I get it. You're a girl! It makes sense when I think of you that way".

Last edited by AHunter3; 01-13-2018 at 11:11 PM.
  #173  
Old 01-13-2018, 11:47 PM
keturah keturah is offline
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You are the only one who continues to tie your experiences to gender. Really, you are a normal guy who feels things more than your perception of other men. Are you sure that your experience is so different than others? To me, it seems that you idealize man and woman interactions and feel that you don't fit the ideal. Welcome to the club, most of us feel this way. We can't all be beautiful people, but we can have meaningful lives.

Last edited by keturah; 01-13-2018 at 11:48 PM.
  #174  
Old 01-14-2018, 04:34 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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You are the only one who continues to tie your experiences to gender. Really, you are a normal guy who feels things more than your perception of other men. Are you sure that your experience is so different than others?
When people are faced with a phenomenon they want an explanation for, they theorize. The good theory has to account for the available data and ideally it makes predictions about things that aren't already known, so we can see whether it describes and makes sense of the phenomenon above and beyond stitching together what we already knew.

There's a difference between a theory and a research hypothesis. An hypothesis is an individual prediction that can be directly tested, whereas a theory is more of an attempt to interpret the whole phenomenon in a way that gives it meaning, and may contain some assertions less easily tested than others.

Yes, I think it is possible that normal guys are basically like me, but they aren't talking about it. I've certainly thought and taught that the whole male sex role and the bundle of things associated with it, personalty and behavior and so on, is not good for anyone. But if that's true, then I end up asserting that I've got a handle on it while the vast armies of normal guys are so damaged by it that they don't realize what's being done to them and aren't doing anything about it. Or something of that ilk, anyway. That I'm more OK in the head than all the other guys. Even I am leery of a theory that depends so centrally on such an egocentric axiom.

My primary theory is that I'm different. Not uniquely so, but that I'm one of the outlyers, the exceptions to the rule. Here's a theory that doesn't demand an explanation for why the average guy isn't strongly motivated to push back against these expectations and get quite angry about it. It says the average guy is having a different experience with all this than I am, not one without some overlap but somehow less of an everyday contradiction of who they are, more of an ongoing affirmation of who they are, instead.

Gender could be a red herring; it could be some other difference. But gender fits. From the first time I looked at it that way, it had that explaining power for me, it made sense of my life and had a good facility for making predictions that were borne out by subsequent experience. That doesn't make it Truth. It could turn out that gender is a single factor among many. (I certainly have an attitude towards centralized authority and authoritarianism, and towards money and capitalism and the distribution of resources, and although I see connections between how we've got gender socially structured, it might make more sense to describe those things from within other theories when I talk to people about them). But if it isn't Truth, it has, for me, earned a place as the Operant Theory, the thing I use as my model of reality even as I continue to test it for its explanatory powers.




Quote:
To me, it seems that you idealize man and woman interactions and feel that you don't fit the ideal. Welcome to the club, most of us feel this way. We can't all be beautiful people, but we can have meaningful lives.
What beautiful people? ** rereads ** Oh, no, you've got that backwards. I never wanted to be them, I went to a fair amount of effort to not resemble them lest people categorize me as one of them, and it was always important to be seen as beautiful and hence NOT like them. I've outgrown the sense of being oh so superior to conventional masculine males —they're people too, different from me but not inferior, and meanwhile I have my own foibles and weaknesses and character issues — but I never wanted to emulate them, and it's hard not to feel insulted even now when people say "oh you're just like any other ordinary guy". More on that in my next blog post.

Last edited by AHunter3; 01-14-2018 at 04:36 AM.
  #175  
Old 01-14-2018, 06:54 AM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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You are the exception to what rule?
  #176  
Old 01-14-2018, 08:32 AM
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You are the exception to what rule?
The couplet rule. ex. 88 Lines About 44 Women.
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  #177  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
The problem with generalities is they fall apart at the individual. Perhaps women generally act like this and men generally act like that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
You are the exception to what rule?
General rules about personality and behavior that attribute them as gender.

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Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
The ability to communicate interest through flirting hinges on mutually shared assumptions about what signals mean. These assumptions are largely shaped by context. Among important contextual factors is the gender and sexual orientation of the players involved!
That kind of stuff, IvoryTowerDenizen, in particular.
  #178  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:25 AM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Those are stereotypes rather than rules. Plus, I don’t agree that flirting falls so firmly along gendered lines. I think there are stereotypes about how girls and guys flirt. These are portrayed in movies and magazines, but I don’t see them so strictly played out in real life. I know quiet guys and women who take the lead and everyone in between.

I can’t imagine there are useful guidelines for men who fit one stereotype vs another, since what works with flirting is mostly dependent on the interest of who is receiving the attention. And there are few hard and fast rules about them either. It’s a chemistry thing and that will always be variable.
  #179  
Old 01-14-2018, 09:46 AM
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I haven't found that to be true, and I've been to a pretty wide range of venues over the decades. In describing things it's virtually impossible not to generalize, and in generalizing I leave out a lot of variation, but the overall patterns I've described are widespread norms even if the particulars of their expression may differ.
You must be going to either some REALLY straightlaced swinger clubs or some really wild church picnics if you don't see any difference in how people interested in the opposite sex interact there. The content of a lot of craigslist 'looking for' ads will get you kicked right off of match.com. I've seen dudes come to a kink-oriented get together at a bar and manage to get themselves banned by doing stuff that's fine in their usual hangouts.

I think part of why your writing falls flat for so many people is that your experiences are fairly limited and viewed through a strong filter for conventional gender roles. You're eagerly presenting what you see as this utterly unique thing applicable specifically to a femmy boy in an overwrought, confusing writing style, but when someone puts in the effort to dig through the deliberately unclear writing it turns out that you're describing an experience that's true for so many non-fem guys that it's a common trope, and the takeaway advice is also pretty bland and ordinary.
  #180  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:07 AM
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All and none of that, strong women who were spectacularly self-defined, quirky, loner women, women who for one reason or another were looking outside the boxes and didn't play by anyone else's rules.
The reminds me of the scene in total recall where Quaid is describing his preference for the girl in his fake vacation and thinks he's describing something incredibly unique but it's actually the first choice on the list the doctor pulls up: https://youtu.be/hJXx9HE2Rm4?t=97

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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Oh, I have. But it's like cerulean over here and morning-glory there and navy hither and teal over yonder and meanwhile in that other context it was aqua but I remember seeing some deep sapphire somewhere or other... and yet it's all blue blue blue blue blue.
If you're seeing everything as blue, it's possible that everything you're looking at is blue. But it's also possible that you're wearing lenses that filter everything to 'blue' when you're not looking at yourself, and I think that's what's actually happening here.
  #181  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:09 AM
wonky wonky is offline
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I've outgrown the sense of being oh so superior to conventional masculine males
This assertion surprises me.
  #182  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:13 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen View Post
Those are stereotypes rather than rules.
Rule in the sense of "general rule" is what people normally mean when they use the phrase "exception to the rule". At least that's my experience as a native speaker of the language. It is, at any rate, what I intended.


Quote:
Plus, I don’t agree that flirting falls so firmly along gendered lines. I think there are stereotypes about how girls and guys flirt. These are portrayed in movies and magazines, but I don’t see them so strictly played out in real life. I know quiet guys and women who take the lead and everyone in between.

Yes. Some of them would be exceptions to the general rule. That's what you get when you make a generalization: there are exceptions to it.

Quote:
I can’t imagine there are useful guidelines for men who fit one stereotype vs another, since what works with flirting is mostly dependent on the interest of who is receiving the attention. And there are few hard and fast rules about them either. It’s a chemistry thing and that will always be variable.
: shrug : either you're speaking from experience here as a person who developed an antipathy towards the general rules and stereotypes and gendered expectations such as you with the face referenced, or else you're not. If that was not your experience, then it was not your experience (another trite truism that I offer for your consumption).
  #183  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:34 AM
monstro monstro is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post

I think part of why your writing falls flat for so many people is that your experiences are fairly limited and viewed through a strong filter for conventional gender roles. You're eagerly presenting what you see as this utterly unique thing applicable specifically to a femmy boy in an overwrought, confusing writing style, but when someone puts in the effort to dig through the deliberately unclear writing it turns out that you're describing an experience that's true for so many non-fem guys that it's a common trope, and the takeaway advice is also pretty bland and ordinary.
To piggy-back on this, your writing isn't very youth-oriented. You are a 58-year-old guy trying to speak to young people, with no attempt to actually speak the language of young people. You don't sound old, but you don't sound like you're very "with it" either.

Young people are very much into pop cultural references and memes. Their flirt games happen on social media, not face-to-face. Instead of quoting feminist scholars that almost no one has heard of, I believe you'd do better providing examples set in the world we're living in now and referencing models that are recognizable to those immersed in today's culture.

Someone mentioned Prince earlier. Have you ever watched "Purple Rain"? Granted the film is more than 30 years old, but it provides great contrast between feminine and masculine male swagger. There are even more recent models of non-conventional gender expressions that you could be referencing, but this would require exposing yourself to TV, movies, and music that young people are consuming.
  #184  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:53 AM
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To piggy-back on this, your writing isn't very youth-oriented. You are a 58-year-old guy trying to speak to young people, with no attempt to actually speak the language of young people. You don't sound old, but you don't sound like you're very "with it" either.
It's stronger than a lack of pop culture and memes - there's a whole new vocabulary about sexual attraction and identity that AHunter3 doesn't seem aware of. For example, "demisexual" is the term that someone under 30 would likely use for the "only into sex with someone who you're in a relationship with or otherwise have strong feelings for", and would probably find someone talking about sexual identity without using the term to be very off-putting. A lot like if someone was trying to talk about same sex-attraction and described themselves as attracted to more than one gender without saying "bisexual" or "pansexual", and seemingly unaware that those terms exist. "You're trying to talk to me about my sexual identity, but you don't even know that you're a demisexual or what the Ace spectrum is?" Also the strong acceptance and reinforcement of traditional gender roles, like calling someone who wants sex in a relationship a 'femmy boy' instead of 'demisexual man', is likely extremely off-putting to anyone used to rejecting those traditional roles.
  #185  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:20 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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If you're seeing everything as blue, it's possible that everything you're looking at is blue. But it's also possible that you're wearing lenses that filter everything to 'blue' when you're not looking at yourself, and I think that's what's actually happening here.
It is also possible that he is taking too much Viagra.
  #186  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:25 PM
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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To piggy-back on this, your writing isn't very youth-oriented. You are a 58-year-old guy trying to speak to young people, with no attempt to actually speak the language of young people.
This is it, exactly. More precisely, he is 58-year-old guy trying to speak to young people in Radical Feminist Theory. (Link from here.)
  #187  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:51 PM
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It is also possible that he is taking too much Viagra.
Oh Darren Garrison you made me spit coffee on my monitor, first thing Sunday morning.
  #188  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:26 PM
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Let me illustrate what I mean about group-level gender differences in flirting, since the thread has shifted into a debate about this point.

Setting: a mixed crowd attending a large-sized party. Not everyone knows each other, but there are lots of friends of friends and distant acquaintances.

There is a single guy on one side of the room. A single woman on the other side. Eventually they both notice each other, and soon after they notice each other noticing each other.

Gender difference #1: Guy is more likely to be obvious about noticing her than the other way around. He will hold a gaze longer. In my experience, men are less inhibited when checking out someone than women are. Either because their visual orientation means they are trying to suck up more information through their eyes or because they are simply less shy about looking.

Gender difference #2: Guy is more likely to approach and initiate conversation. This is changing as gender expectations lighten up, but it’s still the case that men make the first move more often.

Gender difference #3: Once the conversation moves past small talk, the guy is more likely to offer physical compliments (“I was just thinking to myself, what’s up with this gorgeous girl standing there all alone? I have to investigate this”) while the woman is more likely to flatter the guy in other ways. Like laughing expressively at his jokes (as monstro’s coworker does).

Gender difference 4#: Guy is more likely to “take care” of the woman. Get her a drink, throw away her plate, find a place for her sit down, etc. In contrast, a woman is more likely to flirt by being receptive to these overtures and enthusiastically grateful (“wow, you’re such a gentleman, aren’t you? So sweet!”)

All of these are signals of interest that are very common in certain social settings, like bars and parties. My point is not that men and women conform to a script when flirting. Outside of the differences sketched out above, flirting is pretty similar across teams. I’m just saying on a aggregate level, you’ll see such differences emerge. Or to put it another way, if I were to blank out all gender references in the scenario above, most people reading could fill them back in correctly.

Let’s now imagine the same setting, with the same guy and woman. This time, let’s say a femme guy purposely chooses to “act like a woman acts”. Which, for the purposes of this exercise, means not necessarily doing what comes natural to him, but instead mirroring the object of his desire.

In all probability, what this gets us is two people noticing each other across the room. The woman may decide to approach and initiate conversation. But eh, maybe not if she doesn’t think the mysterious stranger from across the room is all that into her, or even actually a straight guy. I mean, he very well might be the straightest motherfucker in the piece, but...is it smart to assume a guy wearing a skirt and wearing makeup is hetero and not something else? He’s petting his hair and batting his eyelashes now...hmmm. Her math tells her no, if she’s going to make the first move, it needs to be on a surer target. So she looks about elsewhere. And what do you know, here’s some other guy and look, he’s walking up to her with a smile and she’s all prepared to laugh at the first jokes he makes...

This is where AHunter3’s advice seems less than sound to me. How conversation is initiated and by whom is completely overlooked, even though that's probably the most important hurdle! Especially when we’re talking about a man whose manner and appearance might puts his sexual orientation into question.

Last edited by you with the face; 01-14-2018 at 01:30 PM.
  #189  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:20 PM
Penfeather Penfeather is offline
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Sylv replied to my 1980 personal ad in the Albuquerque Journal...

I met Joy after a bit of a dry spell in 1985...

Jean was more frontal in a gender-inverty way...

Marian had been a self-identified lesbian...

My longest relationship was with Dee, the career businesswoman...

allthegood and I met in 2010...
If you have been in at least six major relationships in the 30 years between 1980 and 2010, I'm puzzled why you claim meeting girls is an agonising challenge for you: most guys would say you've been pretty successful. Or is all this just a stealth brag?
  #190  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:35 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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The Femmy Boy's Guide to Flirting

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Rule in the sense of "general rule" is what people normally mean when they use the phrase "exception to the rule". At least that's my experience as a native speaker of the language. It is, at any rate, what I intended.











Yes. Some of them would be exceptions to the general rule. That's what you get when you make a generalization: there are exceptions to it.







: shrug : either you're speaking from experience here as a person who developed an antipathy towards the general rules and stereotypes and gendered expectations such as you with the face referenced, or else you're not. If that was not your experience, then it was not your experience (another trite truism that I offer for your consumption).

All I know is that I have found in my experience way more variation between women than between women as a group and men as a group. Among my family, peers, friends etc women I know approach social situations (including dating and flirting) with a huge amount of variability than you seem willing to acknowledge.

And I stand by my stereotype vs rules comment- I know the idiom. I just do not think it applies in this case. In my experience more women do not adhere to the “rules” (ie stereotypes) than do. I do not see the gendered flirting generalizations others have described. I know many women who make the first move, are complimentary first, initiate intimate (physical or emotional) contact.

That doesn’t mean my friends or I have an antipathy towards stereotypical conventions, but that women as a rule are not monolithic in how things are done. It’s doesn’t make them exceptions to the rule, but evidence, perhaps, that these rules don’t exist as much as you think they do.

Anyway, shrug, I’ve said my bit and don’t think it’ll change your POV much anyway.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 01-14-2018 at 02:36 PM.
  #191  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:52 PM
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It's stronger than a lack of pop culture and memes - there's a whole new vocabulary about sexual attraction and identity that AHunter3 doesn't seem aware of. For example, "demisexual" is the term that someone under 30 would likely use for the "only into sex with someone who you're in a relationship with or otherwise have strong feelings for", and would probably find someone talking about sexual identity without using the term to be very off-putting.
I like having a word for that, though I'm not in love with that word itself (and would not, therefore, fuck it).
  #192  
Old 01-14-2018, 03:55 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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If you have been in at least six major relationships in the 30 years between 1980 and 2010, I'm puzzled why you claim meeting girls is an agonising challenge for you: most guys would say you've been pretty successful. Or is all this just a stealth brag?
I came out in 1980, with the new understandings of my newly minted gender identity. It had an effect on outcomes for me. Which is why I bother to share my story and stuff.

Before 1980, I definitely felt stranded on the sidelines and was worried something was wrong with me.
  #193  
Old 01-14-2018, 07:17 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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All I know is that I have found in my experience way more variation between women than between women as a group and men as a group.
This has been my experience as well. I people watch quite a lot as I hang out and work at clubs, and the women at straight clubs act very different in flirting than at gay clubs, wild clubs, goth clubs, jazz and blues clubs, etc. Of course the world is not nightclubs and bars, but that seems to be where a lot of flirting and hook-ups occur. But yeah, we gals seem to have much more variety in types of flirting.

The boys seem to have very similar styles at all of the places, but the type of flirting seems to differ more by whether they are cis-get/gay/trans, rather than the venue. The goth boys act basically like the cis-het boys at Applebees. Except with more leather and spikes.
  #194  
Old 01-14-2018, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
I came out in 1980, with the new understandings of my newly minted gender identity. It had an effect on outcomes for me. Which is why I bother to share my story and stuff.

Before 1980, I definitely felt stranded on the sidelines and was worried something was wrong with me.
All you're telling us is that you're human, though. The experience is pretty much the same for a large number of men - and, I would guess, for women too - feeling baffled and left out by this whole pairing off and hooking up thing, assuming that every other guy has been handed a manual for stuff you don't get, but getting better with age and practice at reading cues and responding appropriately. Hell, when I was 24 we had a house guest for a month whom I was hugely attracted to, we spent every day hanging out together and every night going out, but after a week of this she had to signal her attraction to me by marching into my room and dropping her dress to the floor. Bloody clueless, I was.
  #195  
Old 01-14-2018, 11:40 PM
raventhief raventhief is online now
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I came out in 1980, with the new understandings of my newly minted gender identity. It had an effect on outcomes for me. Which is why I bother to share my story and stuff.

Before 1980, I definitely felt stranded on the sidelines and was worried something was wrong with me.
A teenager/young adult that felt like something was wrong with them and that they didn't really "get it" the way others seemed to?

Wow.
  #196  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:48 AM
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A teenager/young adult that felt like something was wrong with them and that they didn't really "get it" the way others seemed to?

Wow.
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  #197  
Old 01-15-2018, 01:40 AM
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Since I'm still struggling with how you express yourself, I've taken a couple of sentences from Post 74 and tried to edit them for concision:

Quote:
What I do inside my head is not so much "I'm going to do this posture and do this with my eyes". It's more like instead of hiding the fact that sexual possibilities are of interest to me and that, yes, they may have passed through my mind, and then at the same time trying to mount some kind of seductive campaign of coming on to her in exactly the perfect way (ugh!), to just let my face do the talking, including the part about being shy and self-conscious about those kinds of feelings.
"Although I'm interested in sex with her, instead of being deliberately flirtatious I prefer to acknowledge my own shyness and act in a way natural to me".

Great for you, but not exactly ground-breaking, "watcher-of-the-skies-when-a-new-planet-swims-into-his ken" stuff.

Quote:
If, on top of that, I've learned a lot from other people doing it to me, it mostly has to do with pretending in my head that I know something that actually I don't —that those same thoughts have been running through her head — and reacting to something that hasn't necessarily happened yet — that she expressed that.
Oh fuck, I am struggling to parse this, even in the context of your first sentence.

"If on top of that..." On top of what?

"... it has mostly to do with..." What has mostly to do with?

"...that those same thoughts" Which strange thoughts?

"...that she expressed that". Gah! That what?

The best punt I can take at a interpreting your sentence is "From experience I find it best to assume that she's doing the same'', which would give us:

Quote:
Although I'm interested in sex with her, instead of being deliberately flirtatious I prefer to acknowledge my own shyness and act in a way natural to me, and from experience I find it best to assume she's doing the same.
Your writing is muddled and confused; it reads more like a transcript of speech than writing which has been composed to be read. Are you dictating?
  #198  
Old 01-15-2018, 08:44 AM
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Your writing is muddled and confused; it reads more like a transcript of speech than writing which has been composed to be read. Are you dictating?
For quite some time now I've had the strong conviction that AHunter3's sexual identity issues would be best addressed by a good editor.
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  #199  
Old 01-15-2018, 09:23 AM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penfeather View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3
What I do inside my head is not so much "I'm going to do this posture and do this with my eyes". It's more like instead of hiding the fact that sexual possibilities are of interest to me and that, yes, they may have passed through my mind, and then at the same time trying to mount some kind of seductive campaign of coming on to her in exactly the perfect way (ugh!), to just let my face do the talking, including the part about being shy and self-conscious about those kinds of feelings.
"Although I'm interested in sex with her, instead of being deliberately flirtatious I prefer to acknowledge my own shyness and act in a way natural to me".

*** selects the changes that editor Penfeather made **

*** puts it back the way it was ***
  #200  
Old 01-15-2018, 10:09 AM
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*** selects the changes that editor Penfeather made **

*** puts it back the way it was ***
*** goes off to read Penfeather's book instead ***
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