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  #51  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:10 AM
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CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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Originally Posted by LionelHutz405 View Post
It depends on if you think the suspension was punishment. He didn't expel them until receiving the results of the investigation but did suspend them before that.

I think a suspension is a punishment and shouldn't be doled out on the basis of an accusation only, but if he wants to only suspend himself for now until his investigation completes I'm OK with that.
Thats not what you said. You said "ejected them from caucus" based solely on accusation, not "punished them".

And suspension isn't a punishment anyway. When you have serious allegations made, you can't just let it be business as usual.
  #52  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:50 AM
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It also has to be noted that at the time apparently there was no harassment protocol for the House. A committee was struck and a policy came out in December 2014. The accusation was made directly to the PM by a NDP MP so it wasn't a 20 odd year allegation raised by a 3rd party.

So the similarities are there but you have to really stretch them.
  #53  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Thats not what you said. You said "ejected them from caucus" based solely on accusation, not "punished them".

And suspension isn't a punishment anyway. When you have serious allegations made, you can't just let it be business as usual.
Correct, I should have said suspended instead of ejected.
I disagree that a suspension isn't a punishment but agree with you that it can't just be business as usual after serious allegations.

I'm fine with Justin just suspending himself until the investigation completes. It shouldn't take long to complete that investigation now that the procedures appear to be in place based on the previous incidents.
  #54  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:42 PM
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How would you like to use a workplace harassment policy in the context of a private citizen not employed at said workplace?
  #55  
Old 07-12-2018, 02:23 PM
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Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyer View Post
Lol.
Canada is too bland to stir up feelings of hatred.
You've never watched a hockey game, have you?
  #56  
Old 07-14-2018, 01:32 PM
Warm blood Warm blood is offline
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy View Post
Speaking of which, I find it ... interesting ... that this accusation is being dredged out of the memory hole just when Trudeau is fighting back in Trump's trade war.
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Originally Posted by This_Just_In... View Post
Very interesting indeed. If this anecdote from 20 year old past article was being brought up by Canadian rivals why didn't they try to make it a headline during the election, or wait until the next one?
The timing is why I’m not inclined to believe the CPC is behind this. They would’ve been smart enough to wait until next year’s election to unleash this, where it would be fresh in the minds of prospective voters and have a much more probable chance of hurting the Liberals at the polls. Nobody’s going to care about this a year from now.

It is worth pointing out that the story had been floating around on the internet for months on end, but the media deliberately chose to ignore it since it lacked substance and the complainant was unwilling to discuss the allegation to any extent. Nevertheless, the story suddenly started gaining traction around the time of the G7 summit and was reported by right wing sites such as Breitbart. Coincidence? I think not.

Also... there have been credible reports that the Russians are trying to fuck with Canada right now. In light of the knowledge that they played a role in influencing the outcome of Brexit... yeah. It’s scary when you think about it. Hopefully the government is not taking for granted the possibility of foreign interference in next year’s election.

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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That's my take on it as well.

I would just add that Trudeau is not very good at handling personal attacks on him. The incident in the Commons, the Aga Khan holiday, this one; he responds with a whiny "why are you picking on me?" tone.

He lacks his dad's ability to say "Yeah, I did it. So fuddle-duddle."
Though I agree with your analysis of the character differences between him and his father, I don’t agree that he moans about being picked on when he’s subject to scrutiny. He is either overwhelmingly apologetic or he avoids the issue altogether and dances around the subject/deflects.

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Originally Posted by Gorsnak View Post
To be fair, it's scarcely even an accusation. The woman in question wrote a brief editorial expressing unhappiness with Trudeau's behaviour, without elaborating on what exactly he did. That's doesn't really rise to the level of being an accusation.
Pretty much this. If this was a “grab 'em by the pussy” situation, I highly doubt that she would’ve shown any reticence in suggesting that this was precisely what happened. If there’s one prevailing commonality in all accusations of sexual misconduct that have proven to be credible, it’s that the victims do not shy away from explaining exactly what the perpetrators did to them. Not only is this done for credibility, it’s to shut down any dismissals that what occurred was “no big deal”. It’s to drive home the seriousness of their actions. Even the anonymous woman who accused Aziz Ansari of sexual assault went into excess detail when describing the situation, and that was how we all came to the conclusion that it was moreso miscommunication than coercion.

Rose Knight did none of that. She alleged that he groped her, but never specifies or even hints at which body part he groped. I find that strange. In fact, she spent most of the editorial admonishing him for being the son of a former prime minister and ends the column with this rather peculiar parting shot: “like father, like son”.

So would she have been less offended by his behaviour if he was the son of a local mechanic? What does “like father like son” even mean in this context? I don’t recall ever reading that Trudeau Sr. had a reputation for groping or sexually assaulting women.
  #57  
Old 07-15-2018, 06:54 PM
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Maybe Rose is a sneaky Breitbart'er.
  #58  
Old 07-16-2018, 02:29 AM
Hypnagogic Jerk Hypnagogic Jerk is offline
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Justin's key principles seem to be different from his dad's, probably reflecting the different times. His classic statement was when he was asked why his Cabinet was 50% women, and he said "Because it's 2015." That played very well with any female-type person I chatted to.

He's also very committed to a form of liberalism that seems in retreat in a lot of western countries. The Economist did an article on him entitled "The Last Liberal?" Emphasises openness to immigrants, for example. When Canada took in a large contingent of Syrian refugees, he was at the Toronto Airport, welcoming them and handing out parkas (it was the middle of winter). When Trump implemented his entry-ban, Trudeau tweeted right away that Canada believed in welcoming immigrants.)
I feel that a major difference between Pierre and Justin Trudeau is that Pierre was very much a liberal, in the classical sense of favouring the protection of individual freedoms. While Justin seems to be more about what I refer to as "vaguely progressive Canadian values". When Pierre Trudeau was promoting multiculturalism, for example, his argument seemed to be about ensuring the freedom of individuals to choose their own cultural values without pressure from the government, while when Justin Trudeau promotes multiculturalism, it's more from a vague sense of preserving ethnocultural communities' identity or at least part of it. (I wondered for a long time whether Canadian multiculturalism was an individualist or communautarian value, until I figured out it can be either, depending on who's talking.)

While I'm not a fan of Pierre Trudeau, I feel that his principles were much more defensible from the standpoint of philosophical consistency than Justin's.

I also remember reading a quote by Pierre Trudeau from the late 70s, and while I don't remember the exact wording, the gist of it was that if everybody in Quebec spoke English, French would disappear within a few decades. And interestingly enough the quote implied that he didn't look upon this as a desirable outcome. I can't imagine Justin Trudeau saying anything similar; as far as I can tell he'll consider French Canadian identity to be safe as long as he'll see people wearing arrowed sashes at festivals.
  #59  
Old 07-16-2018, 08:30 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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Originally Posted by Hypnagogic Jerk View Post
I feel that a major difference between Pierre and Justin Trudeau is that Pierre was very much a liberal, in the classical sense of favouring the protection of individual freedoms. While Justin seems to be more about what I refer to as "vaguely progressive Canadian values". When Pierre Trudeau was promoting multiculturalism, for example, his argument seemed to be about ensuring the freedom of individuals to choose their own cultural values without pressure from the government, while when Justin Trudeau promotes multiculturalism, it's more from a vague sense of preserving ethnocultural communities' identity or at least part of it. (I wondered for a long time whether Canadian multiculturalism was an individualist or communautarian value, until I figured out it can be either, depending on who's talking.)
Irrespective of one's political position I don't think there is much doubt that Pierre Trudeau was an intensely intelligent man who had a clear philosophical position on major issues, while Justin Trudeau is neither an intellectual nor (as demonstrated so far) particularly principled or morally courageous.

Both men have their pros and cons, but they are quite dissimilar.
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