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Old 04-25-2019, 04:11 PM
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What makes the Dem left "far left," "ultra-left," etc.?


From the "Biden's In" thread:
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I think the far-left wing of the party has taken over more than Joe realizes, and he's positioned himself as too much of a moderate to win the nomination.
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
Awesome, fantastic news.

We FINALLY! have a centrist candidate that has a chance of winning.

Hot damn, finally a Democrat that isn't uktra left wing.
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
That's assuming the ultra left doesn't force Biden to shift from the center. He's already backpedaling on the Anita Hill hearings 25 years ago.
Clearly both of you gentlemen find the "far left" or "ultra left" to be unacceptably far left.

But you think they've gotten big enough to have "taken over" or to potentially "force Biden to shift from the center." So this isn't just AOC, Ilhan Omar, and one or two others we're talking about.

So who are these people, and what shared policy positions or other shared tendencies make this "far/ultra left" so unacceptable to you folks?
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Old 04-25-2019, 04:47 PM
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Beats me. Have the Democrats, on the whole, drifted any further to the left than Republicans have to the right? To my way of thinking - nope. I tend to go with Democratic ideas, almost by default (very few statements/ideas/proposals that Republicans/conservatives come out with these days do I agree with. VERY few). Does that make me a "radical Leftist"? Not in MY book, it doesn't! As far as I'm concerned I'm simply a fair-minded individual who doesn't like the idea of having a person as morally and ethically bankrupt in the W.H. as we do now. But I guess that makes me a "villain" to those on the "Right" these days. So sad.
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Old 04-25-2019, 04:52 PM
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You can start with the 98 members of Congressional Progressive Caucus

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The CPC advocates "universal access to affordable, high quality healthcare" (universal healthcare or single-payer healthcare), fair trade agreements, living wage laws, the right of all workers to organize into labor unions and engage in collective bargaining, the abolition of the USA PATRIOT Act, the legalization of same-sex marriage, U.S. participation in international treaties such as the climate change related Kyoto Accords, responsible reductions in profligate military expenditure, strict campaign finance reform laws, a crackdown on corporate welfare and influence, an increase in income tax rates on upper-middle and upper class households, tax cuts for the poor and an increase in welfare spending by the federal government
and also look at the Democratic Socialist of America which has been very active at the state and local level.

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The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) is the largest socialist organization in the United States. We believe that working people should run both the economy and society democratically to meet human needs, not to make profits for a few. We are a political and activist organization, not a party; through campus and community-based chapters, DSA members use a variety of tactics, from legislative to direct action, to fight for reforms that empower working people.
Neither of these groups could be considered ultra left, HurricaneDitka's and aceplace57's pearl clutching notwithstanding.

mc

Last edited by mikecurtis; 04-25-2019 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:04 PM
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In Canada, they are called Liberals.

I am floored to learn I live in a far-left state under the profligate government of the Prime Minister and his socialist tax collectors!
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:04 PM
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I'm not sure the people who use this phrase have a precise definition in mind. Indeed, precision of thought doesn't seem to be a strong point with most of them. Here's what I've gleaned:

The people who get labeled thusly seem to be those who are concerned with racial justice or gender issues, particularly those who have the temerity to actually be minorities or women. Anyone under fifty is considered an ultra-leftist until proven otherwise. Anyone who believes that racially based police brutality exists in this country is definitely an ultra-leftist. The existence of transgender people is a myth spread by ultra-leftists in order to raise your taxes. Anyone proposing policies that might benefit the working and middle classes, such as increased access to education or health care. Do you question whether oil companies have the best interests of the nation at heart? If so, you are probably part of the lunatic fringe far left!!

Perhaps it could be summed up by saying that an ultra-leftist is any Democrat who says anything that would make Archie Bunker uncomfortable.

Last edited by Thing Fish; 04-25-2019 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:13 PM
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And of course it goes without saying that anyone who has ever, at any time in the past, supported any gun control legislation whatsoever is straight from the ninth circle of ultra-left hell.

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Old 04-25-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
From the "Biden's In" thread:




Clearly both of you gentlemen find the "far left" or "ultra left" to be unacceptably far left.

But you think they've gotten big enough to have "taken over" or to potentially "force Biden to shift from the center." So this isn't just AOC, Ilhan Omar, and one or two others we're talking about.

So who are these people, and what shared policy positions or other shared tendencies make this "far/ultra left" so unacceptable to you folks?
I don't know that there's one set of "shared policy positions" that I'd say describes the "far left". They've got varied interests and don't always agree. But I can give you some examples:

1) The people advocating for reparations for blacks are, IMHO, part of the far left wing of the Democratic Party. It's also a position supported by 26% of Americans, which makes it a pretty sizable portion of the Democratic Party (I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that many of the reparations-advocates are Republicans)

2) Likewise, "Abolish ICE" seems like a far left proposal to me, and yet, it is supported by about a quarter of the population.

3) The people advocating for a ban on civilian handgun ownership are part of the far-Left IMHO. Again, it's a position supported by 28% of the population.

Those obviously aren't all the exact same people. Some of the "abolish ICE" crowd might think handguns are OK, someone who wants to ban handguns might think reparations are nuts, etc. but in general I don't have any difficulty ascribing all three positions a "far left" location on our political spectrum.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 04-25-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
, , , in general I don't have any difficulty ascribing all three positions a "far left" location on our political spectrum.
(emphasis added).

I am glad you qualified it as an American idiosyncrasy because for most of the liberal democracies that the US ostensibly supports, most such positions are close to, if not at, the centre.

Do you care that the US is no longer seen as the Leader of the Free World? Sure, I know it's just an old trope but it's been around a long time for a reason. Individual freedom as embodied in the aspirations of the US Constitution is something that requires global leadership. Yet you seem to see these hopes as nothing more than a far-left shibboleth.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 04-25-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:34 PM
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Seriously, Ditka's answer actually makes sense. The far left, by definition, are the people who are to the left of almost everyone else, who hold positions that only a small minority agree with. Of course, by that definition it's impossible for the "far left" to be taking over the Democratic Party, since if they are numerous enough to do so, they can't be a small minority.

So, I guess it's used as a pejorative for people who hold views that used to be fringe positions, but are growing popular enough to be mainstream.
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Old 04-25-2019, 06:41 PM
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I don't know that there's one set of "shared policy positions" that I'd say describes the "far left". They've got varied interests and don't always agree. But I can give you some examples:

1) The people advocating for reparations for blacks are, IMHO, part of the far left wing of the Democratic Party. It's also a position supported by 26% of Americans, which makes it a pretty sizable portion of the Democratic Party (I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that many of the reparations-advocates are Republicans)

2) Likewise, "Abolish ICE" seems like a far left proposal to me, and yet, it is supported by about a quarter of the population.

3) The people advocating for a ban on civilian handgun ownership are part of the far-Left IMHO. Again, it's a position supported by 28% of the population.

Those obviously aren't all the exact same people. Some of the "abolish ICE" crowd might think handguns are OK, someone who wants to ban handguns might think reparations are nuts, etc. but in general I don't have any difficulty ascribing all three positions a "far left" location on our political spectrum.
I consider myself to be left of center, but not far left. I was actually going to guess that this would be the answer given by someone on the right. It’s more a matter which policy positions the far left politicians focus on rather than holding wildly divergent views compared to someone who is moderately left of center.
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:06 AM
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The green new deal calls for the state commandeering resources on a scale never before seen - and we aren’t in recession!

Instead of a fascist-lite ACA, Democrats call for nationalization of health insurance.

A leading presidential candidate and the most popular congresswoman support the policy proposals of MMT. Basically, there should be no worry of paying for any proposal, just print money. They still like taxes for punitive purposes though.

Culturally, positions that Barack Obama (and every major primary opponent of his) held have become the positions of “reactionary right wingers”.

Yes, to deny a move leftward in the Democratic party is a wishful denial.

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Old 04-26-2019, 09:16 AM
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Also “white” male presidential candidates have been forced to debase themselves in regards to a theory of “white privilege” that would be a Maoists dream.
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Old 04-26-2019, 09:56 AM
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The far left is just as radical and dangerous as the far right. Imho

The country needs to be governed by centrists. People that are willing to compromise on some issues and work with the other party.

That worked for most of the 20th century. There were certainly strong differences of opinion between the partys. Some issues never got resolved. But, a lot of bipartisan legislation did pass.

It's hard to define the far left. Certainly a Socialist agenda and the Green movement are part of it.

A liberal doesn't have to be that far to the left.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-26-2019 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:08 AM
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Only in the U.S. is a more efficient, more effective national health care system considered a "far left" concept.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:29 AM
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The far left is just as radical and dangerous as the far right. Imho

The country needs to be governed by centrists. People that are willing to compromise on some issues and work with the other party.
This tells us that you draw a line, but it doesn't tell us where that line is drawn. Name some prominent Centrists that you would be willing to support politically.
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka
1) The people advocating for reparations for blacks are, IMHO, part of the far left wing of the Democratic Party. It's also a position supported by 26% of Americans, which makes it a pretty sizable portion of the Democratic Party (I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that many of the reparations-advocates are Republicans)

2) Likewise, "Abolish ICE" seems like a far left proposal to me, and yet, it is supported by about a quarter of the population.
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I am glad you qualified it as an American idiosyncrasy because for most of the liberal democracies that the US ostensibly supports, most such positions are close to, if not at, the centre.
Out of curiosity, which liberal democracies have made reparations, as in cash payments to the descendants of slaves, for the African slave trade?
Also, which liberal democracies, outside of some minnows that don’t have airports, don’t have agencies that enforce border controls?
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:08 AM
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Kirsten Gillibrand, Kamala Harris are two that I like. They aren't traditional Democrats but are closer than Elizabeth Warren.

I'm still studying Cory Booker.

There aren't any Centrists anymore. Both parties expect absolute loyalty. Reaching across the aisle gets people in trouble.

All three have shifted further left since joining the Presidential election. That's true of all the Democrats.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-26-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:16 AM
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Retired Senator Joe Lieberman is trying to mobilize the center. I can only hope his organization No Labels can make a difference.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa.../amp/470908002
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:27 AM
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Far left, or ultra-left is anything that is to the political left of ME

So, for example, if I believe that minimum wages should be abolished, healthcare is a commodity best served by a free market, and that being gay is a choice that is designed to weaken and destroy our society....

Then it logically follows that the far left, radical cray-cray segment are those people who believe in a minimum wage policy, any government involvement in health care, and any gay rights whatsoever. They are far left radical insane people.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:34 AM
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The fact that far left people exist and are not Republicans automatically makes them Democrats. The fact that they are Democrats automatically makes all Democrats just like them because every group is defined and indistinguishable from its worst elements. (See: Muslims, immigrants, etc.)

Republican "logic" 101.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:39 AM
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My WAG:

Moderate/centrist Democrats want to keep things pretty much as they are, or as they were under previous Democratic administrations.

"Far left" Democrats want substantial change to the way things are.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:55 AM
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Only in the U.S. is a more efficient, more effective national health care system considered a "far left" concept.
The US is the only place where nationalization of entire industries is considered far left? What an odd endorsement of the US.
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Old 04-26-2019, 11:57 AM
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A progressive is someone with the unfortunate habit of being right too soon.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:03 PM
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1) The people advocating for reparations for blacks are, IMHO, part of the far left wing of the Democratic Party. It's also a position supported by 26% of Americans, which makes it a pretty sizable portion of the Democratic Party (I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that many of the reparations-advocates are Republicans)
Well David Brooks is (he wrote an op-ed about it recently), so there is at least one!
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:04 PM
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A progressive is someone with the unfortunate habit of being right too soon.
Yes, any day now eugenics will have its moment. True pioneers.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:08 PM
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Well David Brooks is (he wrote an op-ed about it recently), so there is at least one!
I think he was only a Republican when they wanted to kill more brown people.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:33 PM
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Rather than what makes a person (or party) "far left", the real issue is that the term is a dog whistle. Sorta like 'commies' were back in the day. As a dog whistle, its use in any rational discussion is therefore bound to destabilize and lead to irrationality (excepting, of course, rational meta-discussions about dog whistles and the like).

Characterizing or labeling someone as far-left should invoke its own form of Godwin's Law.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:54 PM
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The US is the only place where nationalization of entire industries is considered far left? What an odd endorsement of the US.
We've covered this before. A national health care system doesn't have to nationalize the health care industry. In most places where it has been implemented, it doesn't.
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Old 04-26-2019, 12:58 PM
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We've covered this before. A national health care system doesn't have to nationalize the health care industry. In most places where it has been implemented, it doesn't.
“Medicare for all” is the nationalization of the health insurance industry. Dispute?

Yes the far leftists want to nationalize health insurance. If the nationalization of industries is no longer far left, what is?
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:19 PM
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“Medicare for all” is the nationalization of the health insurance industry. Dispute?

Yes the far leftists want to nationalize health insurance. If the nationalization of industries is no longer far left, what is?
Nationalizing industries for political reasons, for the sake of government ownership, that's what. Most industries operate best under regulated private ownership. But not all.

Health care coverage is such an appallingly bad fit as the basis for private business that it's amazing that it works at all. It totally doesn't fit the insurance model and virtually all the incentives are wrong for the imperatives of health care. Instituting health care coverage as an essential public service isn't "leftist" (let alone "far left), it's just the most practical and by far most efficient way of doing it. That's not ideology, it's rationality and basic economics. In countries where it's been adopted it's supported by liberal and conservative governments alike.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:23 PM
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Seriously, Ditka's answer actually makes sense. The far left, by definition, are the people who are to the left of almost everyone else, who hold positions that only a small minority agree with. Of course, by that definition it's impossible for the "far left" to be taking over the Democratic Party, since if they are numerous enough to do so, they can't be a small minority.

So, I guess it's used as a pejorative for people who hold views that used to be fringe positions, but are growing popular enough to be mainstream.
If I may also glom onto Ditka's post, I agree that it does make sense. As far as it goes. Yes, a far-left position can be determined based on how many people support it. When it comes to categorizing an individual, however, it's not so easy. What if I am for full reparations and literally getting rid of all airplanes (reference to phony green new deal AOC attack ) but also am anti-abortion and rabidly pro death penalty. How do you characterize me now? What are the exact criteria that decides if one is liberal, or conservative, or is at any other part to the political spectrum. It's easy to label like this, but in the end, if that criteria isn't specifically defined, what good is it?
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:27 PM
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Definition of "Far Left": Anyone running against a Republican, and all those that support said candidate.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:41 PM
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Seriously, Ditka's answer actually makes sense. The far left, by definition, are the people who are to the left of almost everyone else, who hold positions that only a small minority agree with. Of course, by that definition it's impossible for the "far left" to be taking over the Democratic Party, since if they are numerous enough to do so, they can't be a small minority.
Not really. The loudest and most active part of the Dems at the moment is the lunatic fringe, like AOC and others of her ilk. They do not realize how toxic their radical views are to potential swing voters. Their presence on the ballot, and any success they may have in the primary season, will drag the more reasonable candidates to the left....and probably ensure the Donald's re-election.

So there you have it....sell out to the radical left, or cope with the fucking Nazi in Chief for another 4 years.

Me? I think I'm going to found a death cult religion that prays for a giant asteroid to wipe us out. Our sacred hymn shall be Queen's "We Will Rock You".
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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I think he was only a Republican when they wanted to kill more brown people.
He only recently became a Republican?

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Old 04-26-2019, 01:51 PM
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1) The people advocating for reparations for blacks are, IMHO, part of the far left wing of the Democratic Party. It's also a position supported by 26% of Americans, which makes it a pretty sizable portion of the Democratic Party (I don't think there's much of an argument to be made that many of the reparations-advocates are Republicans)

2) Likewise, "Abolish ICE" seems like a far left proposal to me, and yet, it is supported by about a quarter of the population.

3) The people advocating for a ban on civilian handgun ownership are part of the far-Left IMHO. Again, it's a position supported by 28% of the population.
If the position is not a fringe position how is it the "far"-whatever?

It seems to me the "far" wing of a party is the fringe but with some support (less than 15% I'd say...maybe 10%) and the "ultra" wing of a party are the real nutters...the 1% on the lunatic fringe (e.g. ban all meat sales and mandate a vegetarian diet for the country kinda thing).
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:52 PM
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Not really. The loudest and most active part of the Dems at the moment is the lunatic fringe, like AOC and others of her ilk. They do not realize how toxic their radical views are to potential swing voters. Their presence on the ballot, and any success they may have in the primary season, will drag the more reasonable candidates to the left....and probably ensure the Donald's re-election.
You may be right, but I don't blame AOC. In normal, sane political discourse a more extreme individual like AOC will be seen to raise worthwhile and productive discussions. If they make their case well enough, they may even help shift the middle of the road. The problem isn't AOC, the problem is how Republican hysteria grossly misrepresents and vilifies people like her. That's what makes it toxic. Just like Obama himself became toxic to many, on the basis that he was a Kenyan-born Muslim trying to socialize America by introducing a health care plan that would kill your grandmother.
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Old 04-26-2019, 01:56 PM
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“Medicare for all” is the nationalization of the health insurance industry. Dispute?

Yes the far leftists want to nationalize health insurance. If the nationalization of industries is no longer far left, what is?
Of course it's disputable. A nationalized system can take solely a regulatory role without taking actual ownership of the means of production. This shouldn't have to be explained again, particularly with a glaring example to our immediate north.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:03 PM
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AOC isn't being misrepresented - she's a nutcase, and it shows.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:17 PM
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He only recently became a Republican?
No he got out when the leader criticized the Iraq debacle.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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Nationalizing industries for political reasons, for the sake of government ownership, that's what. Most industries operate best under regulated private ownership. But not all.

Health care coverage is such an appallingly bad fit as the basis for private business that it's amazing that it works at all. It totally doesn't fit the insurance model and virtually all the incentives are wrong for the imperatives of health care. Instituting health care coverage as an essential public service isn't "leftist" (let alone "far left), it's just the most practical and by far most efficient way of doing it. That's not ideology, it's rationality and basic economics. In countries where it's been adopted it's supported by liberal and conservative governments alike.
Pleas copped.

Nationalization of industries is a far left phenomenon. Yes the fascist right is liable to the same errors, but in this case I don’t think it is the far right fascists pushing for nationalization.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:22 PM
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AOC isn't being misrepresented - she's a nutcase, and it shows.
I get that her politics aren't your cup of tea, but in what way is she a "nutcase"?
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Not really. The loudest and most active part of the Dems at the moment is the lunatic fringe, like AOC and others of her ilk
Do you realize that in most western democracies AOCs positions would be considered an almost centrist position (maybe a bit left of center...certainly not the lunatic fringe)?

I submit is it you who is in the lunatic fringe. Republicans have been moving right since the 70's. The proof is in the nutjob we have for president now and that the republican party seems to think he's just fine.

When conservatives decide that 97% of scientists must be in cahoots to make up global warming you need to reconsider just who the lunatics really are. From that perspective waaaaaayyyy over there on the right pretty much anything even remotely near centrist politics seems like the loony left.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-26-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:29 PM
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Do you realize that in most western democracies AOCs positions would be considered an almost centrist position (maybe a bit left of center...certainly not the lunatic fringe)?
You do realize I don't give a flaming fuck?

Quote:

I submit is it you who is in the lunatic fringe. Republicans have been moving right since the 70's. The proof is in the nutjob we have for president now and that the republican party seems to think he's just fine.
I'm not a Republican. Haven't been since Bush the Younger invaded Iraq for no good reason. Maybe you should pay more attention?

Quote:
When conservatives decide that 97% of scientists must be in cahoots to make up global warming you need to reconsider just who the lunatics really are.
Shave that stupid fucking broad brush down to a more manageable level and we can talk. Maybe.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:30 PM
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You do realize I don't give a flaming fuck?
Then why did you post about it?
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:33 PM
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Then why did you post about it?
I posted nothing about other western democracies, because I do not give a flaming fuck about them for purposes of this discussion.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Shave that stupid fucking broad brush down to a more manageable level and we can talk. Maybe.
Republicans are basing policy on denying global warming.

Quote:
When North Carolina got bad news about what its coast could look like thanks to climate change, it chose to ignore it.

In 2012, the state now in the path of Hurricane Florence reacted to a prediction by its Coastal Resources Commission that sea levels could rise by 39in over the next century by passing a law that banned policies based on such forecasts.

SOURCE: North Carolina didn't like science on sea levels … so passed a law against it
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
From the "Biden's In" thread:




Clearly both of you gentlemen find the "far left" or "ultra left" to be unacceptably far left.

But you think they've gotten big enough to have "taken over" or to potentially "force Biden to shift from the center." So this isn't just AOC, Ilhan Omar, and one or two others we're talking about.

So who are these people, and what shared policy positions or other shared tendencies make this "far/ultra left" so unacceptable to you folks?
Well, there are layers of question here. If you are asking who is left wing in the Democrats, that is fairly easy...they would be the Progressives and Social democratic and democratic socialist wings. Whether they are 'unacceptable' or not, is, of course, a matter of political viewpoint. But those groups are certainly left wing when measured against the left/right/center of the US, which, frankly, is the only yardstick we should be using. I know that liberals/progressives on this board love to look at other countries and compare and contrast us to the citizens of those other countries, but where they stand is basically meaningless wrt our political system and process. I seriously wish folks would stop making these comparisons as if they are meaningful, when they aren't. I mean, several foreign 'dopers posted in this thread...well, do you measure you political system against the US? Is that a meaningful gauge of, well, anything? How about other countries...do you measure your system against Japan? China? Russia? Is it meaningful to do so?? No, of course not. The only folks who matter are your own voting citizens and where THEY stand on the issues.

Anyway, in the US, the progressives and socialist wing of the Dems are left wing in comparison to the US center. Liberals are left of center or, maybe center left these days. Simple as that.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
I posted nothing about other western democracies, because I do not give a flaming fuck about them for purposes of this discussion.
Well, you are calling AOC part of the lunatic fringe. If she is then you must think most western democracies are part of the lunatic fringe too. And I showed you the republican party has been moving consistently to the right. A party that thinks Donald Trump is the best person to be president of the United States.

This shows that the probability is the one who is mentally unhinged here is you and not AOC and the rest of the world.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-26-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Republicans are basing policy on denying global warming.
What part of "I am not a Republican" are you having difficulty understanding?

Also, while the Set of Conservatives and the Set of Republicans overlap, they are not identical. I've posted exactly how I voted in the last POTUS election several times. Go look it up, and stop lumping me in with the strawmen you want to fight.

Criticizing AOC et al is not the same as offering to defend the GOP or any particular GOP policy. Stop posting about GOP policy to me. I don't give a flaming fuck about that, either. Won't be voting for them.
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Well, you are calling AOC part of the lunatic fringe. If she is then you must think most western democracies are part of the lunatic fringe too.
How about you stop wildly attributing ideas you think I must hold to me? I do not "must think' any goddamn thing.
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