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Old 05-05-2019, 03:44 PM
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Game of Thrones 8.04 "The Last of the Starks" 5/5/2019 [Show discussion]


This is for show discussion with the show as its own entity. No book talk. Using book knowledge to guess about the ending of the show is the perfect thing to discuss in this show/book thread, not this one.

Open spoilers about the show once it begins airing on the east coast/streaming in a few hours. If you have an actual spoiler (taken from leaks from cast interviews or gossip magazines or whatever) that would be an appropriate use for a spoiler box. A few of us would prefer that if you want to talk about plot points revealed in "next week on..." promos you warn people that you'll be discussing that first. Thank you.

Previous thread (with links to previous seasons found in the first OP of the season):

8.01 "Winterfell"
8.02 "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms"
8.03 "The Long Night"

Show/book open spoilers discussion thread
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:57 PM
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I'll guess that they'll either compress space and time to move the army in the North almost directly to King's Landing or that the Golden Company has sailed north to the Crossroads and there'll be a major battle there. If not the Crossroads, then the Bite, and the battle will be at the Twins.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:14 PM
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I can also see Arya attacking the Mountain in a straight-up fight, a more serious version of her bout with Brienne. Since she "can't" win--dispatching him is likely the Hound's job--then the Hound will either intervene or avenge poor, dead, mangled Arya (who is, I think, the only living person the Hound cares anything about).
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:19 PM
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I can also see Arya attacking the Mountain in a straight-up fight, a more serious version of her bout with Brienne. Since she "can't" win--dispatching him is likely the Hound's job--then the Hound will either intervene or avenge poor, dead, mangled Arya (who is, I think, the only living person the Hound cares anything about).
Even though it would make the most sense for Arya to use her magic assassin powers to sneak into the red keep and take out Cersei i seriously doubt the show is going to let her take out the other main villain. Even though it would be so so easy for her to do so.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:25 PM
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I suspect it would not be that easy for Arya, even with her Faceless Man training. Perhaps Qyburn will notice her? Perhap The Mountain can sense her?
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:36 PM
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Whatever the disappointment with last week, at this point I feel glad that we have some time to run with the Night King out of the way; and if that's the last we hear of Bran flake I won't be disappointed. All the supernatural stuff is inconsistent and poorly written, quite honestly I think the show would be much stronger without anything supernatural at all, the fun of the dragon show and Arya impersonating people notwithstanding. Complex characters, politics, betrayal, grudges - that's what the show is about. When the NK glimpsed in the background was a motivation for complex politics, that was interesting. The reality of the actual fight, not so much.

Last edited by Riemann; 05-05-2019 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:52 PM
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I'm just hoping most of this episode takes place during the daytime.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:03 PM
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After what they did on the last episode where any sense of realism in this world was thrown out the door for plot purposes the only thing left to figure out is what plot do the writers want to follow?
A showdown between Danny and Cersei? Then everyone else is cannon fodder. The dragons should be quickly dispatched after knowing well that Cersei has the big balista things. The starks besides Jon have no interest in fighting Cersei at this point so they stay behind.

We will eventually get the fight between the Mountain and hos brother. Ser Davos probably will be die in some ship battle, isnt it what he was good at I dont remember anymore!
Theon sister is just a side kick to help destroy Eurion ships and maybe die in battle along the way.

Who am I forgetting? Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion and Bronn.... still have this side plot to resolve... honestly it can go either way, with Bronn trying to kill them or not... dont know.

And then we get to the final battle... Danny against Cersei... hard to say which way they want to finish the series....
And for me this is the issue, up until now imo they have not shown Cersei as being that smart nor Eurion for that matter, but of course it will all change now.

Thats what I am thinking will happen...

Last edited by HammerJoe; 05-05-2019 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:41 PM
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The starks besides Jon have no interest in fighting Cersei at this point so they stay behind.
Are you kidding? After what Joffrey put Sansa through? And Arya knows who is responsible for her father's death. Cersei is on her death list.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:57 PM
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Are you kidding? After what Joffrey put Sansa through? And Arya knows who is responsible for her father's death. Cersei is on her death list.
Plus Jon bent the knee to Daenerys, and Starks are nothing if not stupidly loyal. Unless Jon's new knowledge somehow erases an oath he swore, he'll fight with the Mother of Dragons.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:06 PM
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Watching it now.

Man, they organize those bodies not only into piles, but little stacks of squares. That took effort!
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:46 PM
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Game of bones.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:57 PM
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Jesus Christ, circle BEHIND the ships and light them up!
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:23 PM
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Loved the episode except for one thing. The Iron Fleet is deus ex leveling the playing field. Has nobody ever heard of scouting or anything?

So do we think Dany will burn the city and then Jon will kill her, saving the realm from the Mad Queen? Jon as a ruler wouldn't be any better. He'd be a far weaker king that Robert was. More interested in governing well, but even dumber and easier to manipulate.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:23 PM
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Jesus Christ, circle BEHIND the ships and light them up!
Why did she not do this?????
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:25 PM
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Could we drag out Missandei's death any longer? The moment I saw them all up on that platform, I thought, "Yeah, so she'll get pushed off....".

They dragged out the editing of that final moment before her head got chopped off to the point of almost being comedic.

Note: I liked the episode quite a bit, actually. Really solid and I like the in-between ones.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:25 PM
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Well that was quite good. The scheming by Tyrion and Varys reminded me of past seasons. I get Dany not wanting to share the throne with Jon, but why not see if they could float the idea to her (after letting Jon know that they know, of course)?

Those trebuchets were badass against Rheagal. Wow.

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Old 05-05-2019, 09:26 PM
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Jesus Christ, circle BEHIND the ships and light them up!
She ran the gauntlet only to....turn around? Light them up!!!!! Dracaris! Dracaris!!! Just Dracaris them already!
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:28 PM
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Why did she not do this?????


Seriously, just come in low and from behind so the ballistae are blinded by their own sails and masts.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:28 PM
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At the end of that, even I wanted Dany to BURN THEM ALL! Sooooo. . . is this going to end with two queens being murdered? I'm thinking Jaime doing Cersei and Tyrion doing Dany.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:29 PM
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If dragons were that easy to take down the Targaryens would have ruled jack and shit, and jack is out of town.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:30 PM
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Why did she not do this?????
Euron waited till her ships dropped anchor.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:30 PM
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Loved the episode except for one thing. The Iron Fleet is deus ex leveling the playing field. Has nobody ever heard of scouting or anything?

So do we think Dany will burn the city and then Jon will kill her, saving the realm from the Mad Queen? Jon as a ruler wouldn't be any better. He'd be a far weaker king that Robert was. More interested in governing well, but even dumber and easier to manipulate.
No one has ever scouted anything in this show.

Also, while Jon wouldn't be that good himself - he'd at least listen to Tyrion and Varys.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:31 PM
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She ran the gauntlet only to....turn around? Light them up!!!!! Dracaris! Dracaris!!! Just Dracaris them already!
They were on swivels, so I don't think she could've done that easily; and if it looked as though she were doing that, they could turn the ships into an outward-facing ring, possibly in time to save their sorry asses.

That said, Daenerys isn't, as near as I can tell, brilliant at spur-of-the-moment tactical decisions. Her badass moments tend to be planned out in advance.

With the death of the second of her three babies, she was raging and panicking simultaneously. It wasn't a great move, but both parts of it--both the initial charge-straight-at-the-dragonslaying-ballista, and the later fly-away-without-trying-to-flank -- were totally in character.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:31 PM
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Im torn about this episode... as I predicted the realism in that world is thrown out the window...

<spoiler>So two shots and the dragon is dead? Thats it? Those damn arrows are pretty powerful to shred to pieces the boats... And then the next scene Eurion is in KL telling the news....</spoiler>
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:32 PM
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They spent eight seasons trying to get Dany on the Iron Throne and now they're having second thoughts? I know Ghost is in Canada but couldn't Jon at least rub his ears goodbye? And I hope Brienne is pregnant.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:32 PM
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Gendry got shot down harder than Rhaegal.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:32 PM
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No one has ever scouted anything in this show.

Also, while Jon wouldn't be that good himself - he'd at least listen to Tyrion and Varys.
Hell no he wouldn't.

Dany gave him extremely good advice. Keep that shit to yourself. What'd that idiot go do the first opportunity?
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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The question now is how are they going to break into the castle?
In the middle of the night? Can the dragon attack in the dark and get away with it?
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:33 PM
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Loved the episode except for one thing. The Iron Fleet is deus ex leveling the playing field. Has nobody ever heard of scouting or anything?
To be fair, one super-good way to scout things out is FROM THE BACK OF AN ENORMOUS DRAGON FLYING OVER THE BATTLEFIELD. I figured that's what she was doing, and that was my biggest problem with the whole thing: how did she miss the ships? It would've been better if she'd seen them below and dismissed them, but I don't even think the camera showed them until after the shots.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:34 PM
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I think I'm a bit disappointed, but I'm not sure what else they could have done to instill a sense of doubt and drama. By all rights, Dany and her dragons should be nigh unbeatable. But that doesn't make for great storytelling, so they had to make it seem like she might lose. Which she might, of course, but I'd bet good money that it won't be at the hands of Cersei or Euron, if at all.

I don't know. I love the series, but at this point I think I'm just looking forward to it being over.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:35 PM
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The question now is how are they going to break into the castle?
In the middle of the night? Can the dragon attack in the dark and get away with it?
Perhaps Bronn knows of a side entrance? And others, including Varys, have spent a lot of time there. Someone knows a secret passage.

Last edited by Dewey Finn; 05-05-2019 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:35 PM
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They spent eight seasons trying to get Dany on the Iron Throne and now they're having second thoughts? I know Ghost is in Canada but couldn't Jon at least rub his ears goodbye? And I hope Brienne is pregnant.
Tyrion's only spent like 3 years trying. Varys had never met her so I can see why he'd have second thoughts now that he has, although you do wonder why he'd plot to put her there in the first place if he didn't know anything about her.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:36 PM
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Loved the episode except for one thing. The Iron Fleet is deus ex leveling the playing field. Has nobody ever heard of scouting or anything?.
That was my thought. There's no way if she did any scouting beforehand from any elevation she could have missed a fleet that big.

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Jesus Christ, circle BEHIND the ships and light them up!
I'm not sure, but those trebuchets look like they might be able to swivel around fast enough to protect the rear.

The dragons have had problems with trebuchets before so it's not like she shouldn't have been prepared for them. If she had done some scouting, she could have come in fast and low at night and blasted them out of the water.

I guess Sam, Gilly, and Tormund rather surprisingly survive the season since they would seem to be out of action from now on.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:36 PM
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They did spend eight seasons on Jamie's character arc just to throw it all out the window at the end.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:39 PM
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My suspension of disbelief only goes so far. Dragons? Sure. Dire wolves? Why not? Ice zombies? The more the merrier. But the total lack of tactical thinking, of skipping things a third-grader would think of just takes me completely out of it.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:39 PM
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They did spend eight seasons on Jamie's character arc just to throw it all out the window at the end.
A fitting punishment for his character arc.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:40 PM
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So was the castle empty and nobody lived in that island? The boats were hiding just besides the castle so no one would have sent a raven to warn them??
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:41 PM
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Fantastic episode....

...you know what I thought was gonna happen? When we switched back to the capitol after Rhaegaer died (FUCK YOU GOT. Animals always get me harder than people)...I thought we were gonna get about 2 mins of Cersei talking before, Drogan rained fire down upon the entire Red Keep. THAT would have been awesome.

Fuck you Varys and fuck this hand-wringing. Cersei has played you all for two seasons now, and youre still playing nice. BURN THEM ALL. Jon didnt want to be Lord Commander. Didnt want to be King of the North. Doesn't want to be King of the bloody seven kingdoms. Were down to one dragon and shit all for an army. BURN THEM ALL.

Somebody lock Varys up cause I cant take seeing the 'good guys' get played anymore while their forces get smaller and smaller.

....and yes, Dany should have come back at night and burned that entire fleet.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:46 PM
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Dany gave him extremely good advice. Keep that shit to yourself. What'd that idiot go do the first opportunity?
You can't tell him not to tell his freaking family. And demanding he not do it is just begging for him to do it anyways. You could head it off by suggesting a marriage with her being the one who does the primary ruling (because Jon doesn't want to do it anyways and anyone who has spent 5 seconds with him knows that).
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:47 PM
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Is there anyone in America who wasn't shouting for her to fly behind them and swoop down while the trebuchets were firing in the other direction?

I'm on the side of those who think the writers want Cersei to win.

Here's my big prediction for next episode: the battle scenes will be stupid, Dany will be stupid, Tyrion will be stupid, Jaime will be stupid, and time will still have come to a halt.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:47 PM
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You can't tell him not to tell his freaking family. And demanding he not do it is just begging for him to do it anyways. You could head it off by suggesting a marriage with her being the one who does the primary ruling (because Jon doesn't want to do it anyways and anyone who has spent 5 seconds with him knows that).
You sure as hell can tell him that, Dany was 100% right in that conversation. The only way for it not to become an issue was if he kept his mouth shut. There was absolutely no reason anyone needed to know.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:47 PM
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You can't tell him not to tell his freaking family. And demanding he not do it is just begging for him to do it anyways. You could head it off by suggesting a marriage with her being the one who does the primary ruling (because Jon doesn't want to do it anyways and anyone who has spent 5 seconds with him knows that).
Sure you can. Ned Stark kept that secret for 17 years.

Someone needs to sit Jon down and remind him of how he always fucks it up when he does something because "he has to."
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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Tyrion's only spent like 3 years trying. Varys had never met her so I can see why he'd have second thoughts now that he has, although you do wonder why he'd plot to put her there in the first place if he didn't know anything about her.
Varys actually met her in Mereen only shortly after Tyrion did. He was going to Mereen to support her with Tyrion in tow when Jorah kidnapped Tyrion.

Varys originally plotted to have her assassinated on Robert's orders. It's never been at all clear what convinced that she was the best hope for Westeros before meeting her.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:48 PM
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How could she not see the boats while flying that high anyway??
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:51 PM
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Why did she not do this?????
Agreed.

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Could we drag out Missandei's death any longer? The moment I saw them all up on that platform, I thought, "Yeah, so she'll get pushed off....".

They dragged out the editing of that final moment before her head got chopped off to the point of almost being comedic.

Note: I liked the episode quite a bit, actually. Really solid and I like the in-between ones.
I kept expecting Missandei to just jump and kill herself; it didn't look like she was chained to the platform.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:51 PM
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Varys actually met her in Mereen only shortly after Tyrion did. He was going to Mereen to support her with Tyrion in tow when Jorah kidnapped Tyrion.

Varys originally plotted to have her assassinated on Robert's orders. It's never been at all clear what convinced that she was the best hope for Westeros before meeting her.
No, Varys sent the orders, but he didn't plot to have her killed. He knew it would be bungled and Dany would be alert after the attempt was made.

Varys and Illyrio meet under the Red Keep and plotted bringing Targaryens back to power from the beginning.

https://youtu.be/YUjPBtlhBls?t=50
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:53 PM
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How could she not see the boats while flying that high anyway??
Maybe she didn't notice the ballistae [edited]. Would've appreciated a shot showing the boats as teeny below her, worth ignoring; would've made the whole thing seem fairer.
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I kept expecting Missandei to just jump and kill herself; it didn't look like she was chained to the platform.
I was expecting this, too, but I was expecting it because I thought she'd want to ward off slaughter of King's Landing, and if she took that step herself, it'd lessen the fury of her allies.

But her last word was "Dracaris." She wanted that fucking city to burn. Letting herself be decapitated, instead of leaping to her death, was the best way to get her wish.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-05-2019 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:53 PM
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Those are scorpions/ballista, not trebuchets.

Last edited by Snarky_Kong; 05-05-2019 at 09:54 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:54 PM
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Pretty sure the iron fleet came from around a rock, I guess they were hiding. Which is also super dumb, but that was the idea i got from that scene.
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