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Old 10-10-2018, 03:27 PM
Leaper Leaper is offline
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Those who believe in climate change: how should people be raising/advising kids?

Iím asking this seriously, especially of the people who think weíre boned as far as climate goes. Donít have any kids or nieces or second or third cousins? Best friendís kid asks your opinion. Donít have any friends? Shut up and answer the question; donít fight the hypothetical, because itís not the point.
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:44 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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I plan to raise the little one without a strict argument one way or the other, because it's not my goal to brainwash young kids. I'm an engineer who will raise a scientist, economist, doctor, or engineer (hopefully). Therefore, any instruction will be along the line of critical thinking (regardless of source, and especially if I'm the source).

On the other hand, I don't think we're "boned," so maybe I'm not the best test subject. We have money and technology and a very good incentive to survive, so that covers the gamut of my daughter's hopeful career options.

If she shows an aptitude for liberal arts, art, or something non-productive like that, then I'll just teach her to join the throngs of non-rational people and scream about it on Reddit rather than doing anything about it.
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:48 PM
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I plan to raise the little one without a strict argument one way or the other, because it's not my goal to brainwash young kids. I'm an engineer who will raise a scientist, economist, doctor, or engineer (hopefully). Therefore, any instruction will be along the line of critical thinking (regardless of source, and especially if I'm the source).

On the other hand, I don't think we're "boned," so maybe I'm not the best test subject. We have money and technology and a very good incentive to survive, so that covers the gamut of my daughter's hopeful career options.

If she shows an aptitude for liberal arts, art, or something non-productive like that, then I'll just teach her to join the throngs of non-rational people and scream about it on Reddit rather than doing anything about it.
Do you think you're in the pit or something?
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Old 10-10-2018, 03:48 PM
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Waste and conspicuous consumption is immoral. Being frugal is its own reward. Big things such as transportation choices and efficient energy use and not remodeling your kitchen every two years is more important than recycling and avoiding plastic bags and straws.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:03 PM
Living Well Is Best Revenge Living Well Is Best Revenge is offline
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I plan to raise the little one without a strict argument one way or the other, because it's not my goal to brainwash young kids. I'm an engineer who will raise a scientist, economist, doctor, or engineer (hopefully). Therefore, any instruction will be along the line of critical thinking (regardless of source, and especially if I'm the source).

On the other hand, I don't think we're "boned," so maybe I'm not the best test subject. We have money and technology and a very good incentive to survive, so that covers the gamut of my daughter's hopeful career options.

If she shows an aptitude for liberal arts, art, or something non-productive like that, then I'll just teach her to join the throngs of non-rational people and scream about it on Reddit rather than doing anything about it.
Charming answer
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:08 PM
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My kids all know how to operate a firearm, they know how to do basic mechanic stuff, they know basic/intermediate concepts and practices for home electric, plumbing, and construction. This spring we're going to start experimenting with aquaponic gardening, and if that goes reasonably well, we'll look into raising fruit trees that way. Long term goal is to farm about an acre with garden veggies & fruit trees, and see if we can keep a bee hive alive and confined in the greenhouse (as a hedge against colony collapse).

These are all good things to know anyway for all kinds of reasons, even if climate change turns out to be a Chinese hoax. But if all the predictions are correct, one could do worse than to know how to feed, shelter, and protect oneself & tribe.

And just for fun...I have a liberal arts education. All about breadth of knowledge over narrow depth. I'll come looking for an engineer when it's time to manage the water at the aquaponic farm.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:42 PM
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To be adaptable and realize there is not anything in this world that can not disappear, break or be taken away, but that does not mean that life ends with it and to figure out how to thrive when it does and not grow dependent on it. But also depend on God, who loves him, and will make a way for him, and there is a reason for these things, and a reason he can learn to understand why.
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Old 10-10-2018, 04:52 PM
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I will advise my kids not to live next to the ocean, or in a low-lying area prone to floods. Other than that, climate change as we know it will not be the end of us. Warm climate zones are likely to expand or march northward from the equator (or southward), so challenges and opportunities will emerge. Drought will become/is common in some areas, so water conservation will be discussed, as well as conspicuous consumption. We've already shown them the benefits of a small, efficient car. Arm them with knowledge is all you can do, so they can make their own decisions. We do not want them in the corner curled-up and sucking their thumb, but we also want them to know we think climate change is real and people are causing it.
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Old 10-10-2018, 05:03 PM
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Iím asking this seriously, especially of the people who think weíre boned as far as climate goes. Donít have any kids or nieces or second or third cousins? Best friendís kid asks your opinion. Donít have any friends? Shut up and answer the question; donít fight the hypothetical, because itís not the point.
I do what I do with anything...I talk to them about it, especially if they bring it up. Which they do, since their grandpa tells them a load of horseshit, IMHO, and they ask me for my take. I don't harangue them or anything like that, be we discuss the issues to be best of my limited ability, including my take on why things don't get done faster, why we don't all just go to electric vehicles or solar/wind power and where things are headed, at least IMHO.

I don't think we are boned, but I think we are in for some rough times ahead. That said, I think that the real way to deal with this is through the market, and I think that's what's going to have the biggest actual impact. That and demographics. Sadly, these forces aren't going to let us off the hook with the least impact...but I think that, eventually, it's going to peak and start to go down, just like the population bubble.
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Old 10-10-2018, 09:35 PM
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I'll just tell the kid that the living will envy the dead, and he or she will know only wretchedness and suffering, and that the killer comet that finishes off humanity will be a blessing.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:27 AM
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Long term goal is to farm about an acre with garden veggies & fruit trees, and see if we can keep a bee hive alive and confined in the greenhouse (as a hedge against colony collapse).
Uhh,I hope that's a joke. You realise a honey bee colony needs to bring in something along the lines of 150lb of honey to survive a year, plus pollen, plus propolis; where are they going to get that from in your greenhouse? If they're foraging outside, which they'd have to do to stand the faintest chance, they'll be mixing with other bees and catching whatever off them anyway.

They're also notoriously tricky to keep as even an indoor display hive with good access to the outside, high temperatures really aren't good for them at all.

Colony collapse is only even an issue in the US (and it's probably caused by an insecticide/management/varroa complex interaction, not a simple disease as such), if you reach the point where Apis mellifera, which after all are a European species, actually somehow become extinct in the States, people are gonna just import more from one of the disease free countries, of which there are a few.

Incidentally, in the early 1900s, the UK honeybee population dropped 85% in a year or so due to a disease epidemic, it was back up in numbers within a decade once a resistant strain was found. They can rebound pretty impressively.

Regarding the OP, depends on the age of the kids. Scaring toddlers is a very different proposition to answering direct questions from an older kid. I'd try and help them find and recognise unbiased information, if hey were older and I could. Helping them learn to research is more useful than telling them stuff.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:46 AM
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Don't have children, and the future holds nothing but misery.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:57 AM
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Mine are young adults, but we still talk about stuff, life advice, etc.

I tell them it's unwise to invest long-term in a drought threatened area. I think one of the strongest effects of climate change will be the large scale relocation of water. We have built up a large infrastructure based on water being in certain places, in predictable amounts. I think systemic weather pattern changes will move water in ways that our infrastructure is not designed for, and eventually render some areas uninhabitable.

Specifically, I counsel strongly against buying a house in the southwest area of the US, and in southern California especially. When Mead finally goes dry, there isn't any easy way (that I can see) to provide water to these areas. As an oldster, I may not live to see it, but they will definitely see a large scale migration out of the southwest, with the accompanying financial disaster as previously overpriced homes become unsellable.

I also advise them to pay close attention to elevation if they decide to locate to any coastal areas or near rivers. I think the weather extremes are likely to cause flooding or storm surges in ways we're not prepared for.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:41 AM
MostlyClueless MostlyClueless is offline
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This whole "personal responsibility" argument is a smokescreen. It's massive companies that are fucking things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...climate-change

So teach your kids that unbridled capitalism is evil.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:59 AM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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Do you think you're in the pit or something?
I'm not sure whom I'm meant to have pitted, or otherwise insulted. My answer is perfectly rational.
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Old 10-11-2018, 08:51 AM
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My kids are young enough that talking is a challenge but generally the plan is to live in areas of lower population with high predicted rainfall. I'd like to move to the Cour D'alene area about the time the youngest goes off to college and I'll be encouraging them to get useful technical degrees that can find them employment away from the coasts or deserts.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
I plan to raise the little one without a strict argument one way or the other, because it's not my goal to brainwash young kids. I'm an engineer who will raise a scientist, economist, doctor, or engineer (hopefully). Therefore, any instruction will be along the line of critical thinking (regardless of source, and especially if I'm the source).

On the other hand, I don't think we're "boned," so maybe I'm not the best test subject. We have money and technology and a very good incentive to survive, so that covers the gamut of my daughter's hopeful career options.

If she shows an aptitude for liberal arts, art, or something non-productive like that, then I'll just teach her to join the throngs of non-rational people and scream about it on Reddit rather than doing anything about it.
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Do you think you're in the pit or something?
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I'm not sure whom I'm meant to have pitted, or otherwise insulted. My answer is perfectly rational.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that he is taking issue with the italicized part of your original comment.

However, I'm going to step in and stop this hijack. Take it to another thread or the Pit, but we will not debate the "productivity or value" of those who gravitate to the arts in this thread.

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 10-11-2018 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:41 AM
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Inigo Montoya Inigo Montoya is offline
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Uhh,I hope that's a joke.
Thanks for the heads up. I know shit about keeping bees happy and all the clues I can get are valuable. As I said, though, it's a bit in the future and I have time to get most of the details right before releasing the bees into paradise/hell (depending on how much I get right). Look for my IMHO thread, coming in 2023. I'm also curious about totally wild indigenous bee species which might be lower maintenance and not have quite the dietary requirements of a hive of Eurobees.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:44 AM
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I’m so glad I don’t have kids, the world they are going to inherit will be hellish.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:45 AM
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Waste and conspicuous consumption is immoral. Being frugal is its own reward. Big things such as transportation choices and efficient energy use and not remodeling your kitchen every two years is more important than recycling and avoiding plastic bags and straws.
I think your last sentence is probably the best one- I'm going to try and make my kids aware of how to tell what's not a good bang for your buck (straws, light bulbs) vs. what's actually meaningful (how you get to work/how efficient your car is, insulation).

And in general, being environmentally responsible is already a pillar of our parenting. Not in a "sustainably grown natural rubber bike tires" kind of way, but in a way that stresses not wasting things, and reducing/reusing/recycling when possible.

Last edited by bump; 10-11-2018 at 09:46 AM.
  #21  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:08 AM
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This whole "personal responsibility" argument is a smokescreen. It's massive companies that are fucking things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...climate-change

So teach your kids that unbridled capitalism is evil.
You can't expect companies to put environment before profit. Any company that does will be at a financial disadvantage. It's the government's responsibility to level the playing field and force all companies to adhere to a certain level of environmental protection. And it's the voters' responsibility to elect a government that does that.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:37 AM
naita naita is offline
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This whole "personal responsibility" argument is a smokescreen. It's massive companies that are fucking things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...climate-change

So teach your kids that unbridled capitalism is evil.
The wast majority of those are oil companies. Their only possible contribution to reduce emissions would be to cease existing, and the demand for oil and political will to continue extracting it would ensure someone else would take their place.

We could do the same for huge companies that aren't oil producers as well, such as Apple.

Which brings us full circle, sure, unbridled capitalism is evil, but unbridled capitalism is a choice mainly made in democratic nations, and it thrives only due to the consumers of those nations. So everyone does have a personal responsibility as a consumer and as a voter.

Sure, it might seem like CEOs and presidents have all the power, but theirs is a derived power that is just transferred to someone doing the same thing, unless people take personal responsibility for the actions the give them the power.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:53 AM
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Thanks for the heads up. I know shit about keeping bees happy and all the clues I can get are valuable. As I said, though, it's a bit in the future and I have time to get most of the details right before releasing the bees into paradise/hell (depending on how much I get right). Look for my IMHO thread, coming in 2023. I'm also curious about totally wild indigenous bee species which might be lower maintenance and not have quite the dietary requirements of a hive of Eurobees.
It's more the colony size of European honey bees than their nutritional requirements that's the problem, at the height of the season, they can have 60,000 bees in one hive. That's a lot of tiny mouths to feed. Of course, that's also a large part of why they're so valuable for field scale pollination.

Some commercial greenhouses use other bee species, with colony sizes in the hundreds, for crop pollination, but I'm not aware of any attempts to find a species suitable for domestic size greenhouses. I'd guess you'd want only 10-20 or so bees at a time if they're wholly restricted, but as small greenhouses generally don't have air con systems, most people wind up leaving the door open for ventilation anyway, so there's maybe not much point.

Encouraging native bee species is a good plan regardless, they're in decline too, but we know a lot less about why, or what role they play in ecosystem management.

[/bee hijack]
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Old 10-11-2018, 11:33 AM
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I'm not going to raise them too much differently. We live in West Virginia, projected to get warmer and wetter. Longer growing seasons, less snow, possible droughts in mid-summer, but nothing serious. We'll lose some species and gain others. Our worst effects are likely to be our ski resorts becoming unprofitable and a longer allergy season. I don't want to be flippant, but we're in better shape than most places.
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:34 PM
MostlyClueless MostlyClueless is offline
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sure, unbridled capitalism is evil, but unbridled capitalism is a choice mainly made in democratic nations, and it thrives only due to the consumers of those nations. So everyone does have a personal responsibility as a consumer and as a voter.

Sure, it might seem like CEOs and presidents have all the power, but theirs is a derived power that is just transferred to someone doing the same thing, unless people take personal responsibility for the actions the give them the power.
You're talking like bribes and lobbying don't exist. Any child knows that if all the media is in the hands of the government the country is fucked. Somehow, the media being in the hands of the rich and powerful seems to be no cause for alarm.

We're not living in a perfect democracy. Yelling "the people have brought this upon themselves!" is bull.
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Old 10-11-2018, 03:43 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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However, I'm going to step in and stop this hijack. Take it to another thread or the Pit, but we will not debate the "productivity or value" of those who gravitate to the arts in this thread.
Thank you. I had no intention of letting WOOKINPANUB hijack (I'm not sure he actually did hijack). To be clear, you might suggest "liberal arts" in addition to "the arts" as off limits, as I specifically mentioned that and you do seem to be taking exception to it for some reason.

Anyway, Leaper, what do you mean by "if we're boned"? For example, I said I don't believe we're "boned," but then looking at senoy's response, I get the idea that he thinks some people will be boned, but he won't due to the geographical location.

To me, boned means the world is destroyed, and senoy seems to think some not small part of the world will be boned in that sense, but he'll be safe in his region. To some people, boned might simply mean we have to divert energy and resources to work around any effects of ecological change.

This distinction is important to teach to the kids. Instead of "boned," I suggest we more carefully define our terms.

Things will die. People will be displaced. Maybe senoy's children will have to pay triple for bananas as a result. Beachfront property in Fresno will be worth a lot.

How does this affect the displaced? How does this affect the rest of us? The world is a large, complex place, and effects won't be localized to a hill in West Virgina.

(Thank you, senoy, I'm not picking on you, but you made a great example of the complexity of the topic.)

If you believe the world will end, then you will teach your children to scream at the tops of their voices to make some change now! If you don't believe the world will end, then you will teach your children to understand the causes, mitigations, effects, and help them understand the interconnectedness of all things, enabling them to deal effectively with their reality rather than be victims of it.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:05 PM
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You're talking like bribes and lobbying don't exist. Any child knows that if all the media is in the hands of the government the country is fucked. Somehow, the media being in the hands of the rich and powerful seems to be no cause for alarm.

We're not living in a perfect democracy. Yelling "the people have brought this upon themselves!" is bull.
I haven't said or even implied that the system is perfect. But in our "better than most" democracies people have influence on how government works, they have a choice in media to consume, and they choose to reelect the politicians that cater to the rich and suck the lobbyist teat, they choose to watch the most biased media, and they choose to continue wasteful behavior.

People in "better than most" democracies _have_ brought this upon themselves, by continuing to support the makers of big decisions who make things easier and cheaper, over the ones that would curb consumption and pollution.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:52 PM
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There are lots of things which can go wrong in life. There can be a major financial/economic mess as in 2007-2009 where you lose your job and can't find another another one for years. Anyone can suffer a major disability and can no longer work. You need many of the same type responses for these as for climate change: live frugally, save, learn how to fix things yourself, be adaptable...
  #29  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:20 PM
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I haven't said or even implied that the system is perfect. But in our "better than most" democracies people have influence on how government works, they have a choice in media to consume, and they choose to reelect the politicians that cater to the rich and suck the lobbyist teat, they choose to watch the most biased media, and they choose to continue wasteful behavior.

People in "better than most" democracies _have_ brought this upon themselves, by continuing to support the makers of big decisions who make things easier and cheaper, over the ones that would curb consumption and pollution.
It's WAY easier to blame capitalism or Big Evil Corporations(tm...arr), etc etc, blah blah Marx when you don't get that you are part of the aggregate market. It's an easy cop out. It's all THEIR fault, and if only they weren't so evil or if we had a good communist/socialist government with a command economy as Marx intended we wouldn't be in this mess, blah blah blah Lennon. Thing is, it doesn't really work that way, and while I think that the US government et al has done a lot to leverage Big Oil and Big Auto, it's just giving a nudge to something that was and is still happening naturally because of market forces. We will have a major change in the market, and corporations will jump on the bandwagon when those market forces change. We are seeing that happening right now, today...and faster than I, personally, thought would happen. It's why this gloom and doom stuff is so odd. We might see a paradigm shift in our (my, and I'm freaking old) lifetimes. It took whales becoming extremely rare for us to change directions last time, and trees become scarce in some parts for us to switch to coal, and it will take innovation and market forces before it happens this time. Sadly, we'll already be at the point where we will have significantly changed the climate by then. But we won't be 'boned' in any sense...it will just be more of what we saw this week in Florida happening more frequently than it did 100 years ago. More droughts, more floods. But that's stuff we can get by.
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  #30  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:22 PM
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I don't think anyone should have children now, no.

But I don't give advice to people about stuff like that, except, of course, on the internet.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:30 PM
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I don't think anyone should have children now, no.

But I don't give advice to people about stuff like that, except, of course, on the internet.
Ironically, this trend is already happening, and people are, indeed, having less children across the globe. In many countries they are below replacement level already, and many more are on the cusp, or only above it due to immigration (such as the US). I figure that, like our population, this issue is going to self correct at some point. As countries become more wealthy and the technology becomes more available and more capable, we are going to see a shift away from fossil fuels and towards much more green tech. Corporations aren't preventing the masses from buying solar panels or battery powered cars, the market is. But that gap is closing and fairly soon we might see a cross over, where as many or more electric cars are being bought than ICE vehicles, with eventually ICE cars being relegated to whale oil lamps.
And when we see self-driving AI that might be a whole 'nother shift, with the possibility that people won't even need or, more importantly want their own vehicle.

Now, if only we figure out fusion, or figure out how to get folks to not be terrified of fission....
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Last edited by XT; 10-11-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 10-11-2018, 05:55 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Iím asking this seriously, especially of the people who think weíre boned as far as climate goes. Donít have any kids or nieces or second or third cousins? Best friendís kid asks your opinion. Donít have any friends? Shut up and answer the question; donít fight the hypothetical, because itís not the point.
There is no such thing as not believing in climate change. People who say they don't are lying. So the question is nonsense.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:05 PM
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Don't have kids. And if you do, teach them to swim early. Maybe one generation will grow some gills.
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:11 PM
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It's WAY easier to blame capitalism or Big Evil Corporations(tm...arr), etc etc, blah blah Marx
Like I said; the massive damage done to the environment (You know, the subject of this thread) is by businesses, not by individuals.

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it will take innovation and market forces
None of the worldís top industries would be profitable if they paid for the natural capital they use. Now THAT is unbridled capitalism. Or, stuff like this: Goldman Sachs claiming that actually curing people is "not a sustainable business model".

But hey, keep on believing the free market will solve everything.
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  #35  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:15 PM
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Like I said; the massive damage done to the environment (You know, the subject of this thread) is by businesses, not by individuals.



None of the worldís top industries would be profitable if they paid for the natural capital they use. Now THAT is unbridled capitalism. Or, stuff like this: Goldman Sachs claiming that actually curing people is "not a sustainable business model".

But hey, keep on believing the free market will solve everything.
And those companies...are they doing that damage for their own health? Or perhaps for fun? Shits and giggles? But hey, keep thinking that it has nothing to do with you, that's it's all capitalism or Big Evil Corporation Incs. fault, oh, and that this is going to be solved by unicorn wishes and dragon tears...or is it dragon wishes and unicorn tears? I always get those mixed up...
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  #36  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:20 PM
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Well, this thread has been useless.
  #37  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:21 PM
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Ideally with the following.

Drive an electric car
Use solar panels and batteries for your home
Eat a vegetarian diet, or eat lab grown meat (animal meat is a major source of climate change, now watch me eat this pepperoni pizza)
Vote for whatever party takes climate change seriously
Divest yourself from companies that cause climate change
  #38  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:22 PM
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Raising them to have a much more veg-based diet
  #39  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:23 PM
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Neither my brother nor I follow the Party Line (capitalization deliberate) regarding climate change; we both believe it exists (duh - it always has) but how much of it is caused by human behavior is debatable. However, that does not mean that we are off the hook regarding the proper care of our planet and its resources; I don't have kids, but he does, and that's what he and his wife, who feels the same way, have taught them.

FWIW, our dad has always taught us (my sister too) not to Follow The Party Line about the JFK assassination either, so that may be where our critical thinking skills come from.
  #40  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:29 PM
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And those companies...are they doing that damage for their own health? Or perhaps for fun? Shits and giggles? But hey, keep thinking that it has nothing to do with you, that's it's all capitalism or Big Evil Corporation Incs. fault, oh, and that this is going to be solved by unicorn wishes and dragon tears...or is it dragon wishes and unicorn tears? I always get those mixed up...
Not for therr own health - but for their own wealth. Or the wealth of the execs. The bottom line looks a lot better when you dump costs on the public at large.
Why do you think the companies that dumped waste into rivers did it?
  #41  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:31 PM
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Neither my brother nor I follow the Party Line (capitalization deliberate) regarding climate change; we both believe it exists (duh - it always has) but how much of it is caused by human behavior is debatable. However, that does not mean that we are off the hook regarding the proper care of our planet and its resources; I don't have kids, but he does, and that's what he and his wife, who feels the same way, have taught them.

FWIW, our dad has always taught us (my sister too) not to Follow The Party Line about the JFK assassination either, so that may be where our critical thinking skills come from.
You are following the Part Line - the Republican and energy company Party Line. Try following the Science Line and help our children.

ETA: The current Republican party line that is. Not the line of Nixon and McCain, who actually gave a shit.

Last edited by Voyager; 10-11-2018 at 07:31 PM.
  #42  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:32 PM
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Not for therr own health - but for their own wealth. Or the wealth of the execs. The bottom line looks a lot better when you dump costs on the public at large.
Why do you think the companies that dumped waste into rivers did it?
Are you equating companies that dump waste to save a buck with companies that make the car that you, I and everyone else in this thread drive? Or with that computer you used to type this...and the power used to run it??

Is it for their own wealth? Fuck yeah it is. But you know why they get wealthy? Because we all use that shit. You, me and MostlyClueless, along with hundreds of millions of others. They aren't putting a gun to our collective heads to buy cars or burn those Christmas lights, we are telling them in the aggregate that this is what we want and they are fulfilling that.
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  #43  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:38 PM
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As for the question in the OP, both my kids are old enough and havbe good enough educations to understand the problem and try to minimize their energy usage, but not radically.
An interesting question is what happens when the problem becomes too obvious even for people like Trump to ignore. Will the deniers say "nobody told me. How was I to know?"
  #44  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:46 PM
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As for the question in the OP, both my kids are old enough and havbe good enough educations to understand the problem and try to minimize their energy usage, but not radically.
An interesting question is what happens when the problem becomes too obvious even for people like Trump to ignore. Will the deniers say "nobody told me. How was I to know?"
'Who knew the climate was so complicated??'...



I basically wouldn't count on denier types ever coming around. I don't expect left wing eco-loonies to ever come around to fission nuclear energy either. Basically, if they haven't figured it out yet, they never will. That's why I said, it's going to be market forces that have the most impact on this. My take is that, like other dead end thinking, eventually it will just go out of favor as the old folks who are really invested in it die off and new folks come in with clearer heads. Even today, you have folks who deny evolution, and that's been well over a hundred years at this point. But, it's a pretty marginalized group, IMHO. Climate deniers I think will be the same...plus, if I'm right, it will be moot, since we will already be doing stuff to decrease carbon emissions by buying greener stuff. Not because someone told us we should or because the government forces us to, but because it's better than the old stuff, and we wants it, yes precious, we wants it. We didn't switch off of horses and buggies because the government told us too, nor because horses became scarce, but because cars, eventually, were better for the majority and what we wanted to do.
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Last edited by XT; 10-11-2018 at 07:47 PM.
  #45  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:38 PM
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General note that to keep this thread to the topic at hand- how are you raising your kids under the presumption of a credible threat of climate change.

Some thread drift is normal, but a full on debate of climate change is better suited for a different thread.
  #46  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:03 PM
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I don't think anyone should have children now, no.

But I don't give advice to people about stuff like that, except, of course, on the internet.
Ironically, this trend is already happening, and people are, indeed, having less children across the globe. In many countries they are below replacement level already, and many more are on the cusp, or only above it due to immigration (such as the US). I figure that, like our population, this issue is going to self correct at some point. As countries become more wealthy and the technology becomes more available and more capable, we are going to see a shift away from fossil fuels and towards much more green tech. Corporations aren't preventing the masses from buying solar panels or battery powered cars, the market is. But that gap is closing and fairly soon we might see a cross over, where as many or more electric cars are being bought than ICE vehicles, with eventually ICE cars being relegated to whale oil lamps.
And when we see self-driving AI that might be a whole 'nother shift, with the possibility that people won't even need or, more importantly want their own vehicle.

Now, if only we figure out fusion, or figure out how to get folks to not be terrified of fission....
XT, that is such an optimistic view, but I doubt it is enough to even make a dent.
The problem is there are too many humans on this planet. Sure, that's been said before and we've always found a way out. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. When the expanding human population is having a dramatic effect on the planet's climate, I think it's safe to say, yeah, there are too many people.

Sure, we've (mostly) solved the problem of not enough food. And, of pestilence and disease. But, the solutions just encourage more people, and it's getting to the point where things that were considered ubiquitous a few generations ago (water, room to expand, wildlife) are now considered luxuries. If we solve these problems, it will just allow more people to fill in the gaps and further reduce the diversity of life on the planet. Reducing the diversity of life on the planet is not the direction we need to go.

To me, it seems obvious that if we keep our current course we'll be doomed within 100 years, we are already doomed, since our current course is expanding exponentially. That is, if we stopped all further growth, we'd be doomed in 100 years. We obviously aren't going to stop further growth, so the obvious outcome is some cataclysmic result that is not going to be fun for anyone. We really are at the point where we should be figuring out how to deal with a declining population, not trying to figure out if a declining human population is what is best for the planet.

If you really believed in climate change and understood the root causes, IMHO, you would not have children. If your understanding of the situation was only realized after you had reproduced, the only reasonable action would be to convince your offspring not to reproduce. While your offspring's lack of children is not likely to have a strong effect on the future, you may rest easier knowing that you're lowering the amount of suffering your progeny will experience (if only by reducing the number of your progeny).
  #47  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:03 PM
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You are following the Part Line - the Republican and energy company Party Line. Try following the Science Line and help our children.

ETA: The current Republican party line that is. Not the line of Nixon and McCain, who actually gave a shit.
The people you're thinking of deny that climate change exists, period. We do not.
  #48  
Old 10-12-2018, 01:29 AM
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Those who believe in climate change: how should people be raising/advising kids?
I have a 1-year-old son and my wife and I hope to adopt a daughter soon. When my children are old enough to understand the topic, I will talk with them about it. I will also encourage them to read from a variety of sources with different opinions about this topic, and about every topic. But an outline of my personal opinion that I will give them is as follows:

I. The climate of planet earth is warming, at a rate somewhere between .1 degree C and .2 degree C per decade.

II. The major driver of this is human emissions of carbon dioxide and other and other gasses. A remarkable number of intelligent people seem to think it's only carbon dioxide, while ignoring the role played by methane and other gasses. (Also, many of them just say "carbon" rather than carbon dioxide.) It may be the case that some natural trends also contribute to global warming as well.

III. Some people blame capitalism for global warming. They should be blaming communism instead. China emits far more carbon dioxide than any other country, and the amount they emit is rapidly growing while the amount emitted by the USA is rapidly declining.

IV. People who tell you that global warming will ruin your life, destroy civilization, or leave the remnants of humanity scraping out a meager existence in a barren wasteland are wrong. We have no way of knowing exactly how it will play out over the next 50 or 100 years. The facts show no clear support for claims that global warming leads to more droughts, hurricanes, or tornadoes.

V. The most important reason why we don't know the future is that we don't know about which new technologies will be invented.

VI. The future well-being of humanity and other species depends not only on how much the world heats up, but also on how we prepare and respond. It is much better to suffer a major hurricane in a wealthy country with strong building codes and good emergency response, then suffer a minor hurricane in a poor country with no building codes and no emergency response. Wealthy countries also have better environmental policies and more protected land. So if you want to make the world better for humans and animals, work to build prosperous, democratic, free market societies.

VII. Many suggestions for helping the environment don't actually help, or help very little. Recycling, for instance, accomplishes very little, even if your city isn't among those that just dump "recyclables" into landfills.

VIII. Much "green" engineering and public works projects are a waste of time and money. Solar roads, for example. Politicians spend money on showy, high-tech projects like this because they want to get media attention and appear pro-environment. If they actually cared, they would just build an ordinary road and put solar panels next to it. That would reduce emissions a lot more at a much lower price.

IX. Personal choices are generally undermined by government policy. For example, some say we should stop eating meat in order to reduce emissions. It is true that large herds of cows, pigs, etc... contribute greenhouse gases. But suppose we actually got a sizable number of people to stop eating meat for this reason. What would happen? Farmers would go to Congress and complain about falling prices. Congress would pass new subsidies in order to "protect jobs". The number of farm animals would stay the same, or possibly even increase.

X. So-called "environmentalists" often support bad policy that would increase emissions. To name just a few examples:
  • They oppose nuclear power, almost universally. France generates almost all its electricity by nuclear power. The USA could do so, if we hadn't stopped builing nuclear plants in the 70's. Our carbon dioxide emissions could be much lower.
  • Genetically modified foods. They're great, but many environmentalists oppose them for no good reason. GMOs allow us to grow more food on less land, using less water, less pesticide, and less fuel-burning machinery. If GMOs didn't exist, emissions would be much higher.
  • The ethanol mandate.
  • Fracking. By producing bountiful natural gas, which emits less carbon dioxide per unit energy than coal, it reduces emissions. Environmentalists hate it. Go figure.
  #49  
Old 10-12-2018, 01:49 AM
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VII. Many suggestions for helping the environment don't actually help, or help very little. Recycling, for instance, accomplishes very little, even if your city isn't among those that just dump "recyclables" into landfills.

VIII. Much "green" engineering and public works projects are a waste of time and money. Solar roads, for example. Politicians spend money on showy, high-tech projects like this because they want to get media attention and appear pro-environment. If they actually cared, they would just build an ordinary road and put solar panels next to it. That would reduce emissions a lot more at a much lower price.
A lot of "green" guides basically say "throw away the things you're using, and buy ours instead." Um, no, in most cases. If I do anything like that, it's because I used up the product and bought that one as a replacement.
  #50  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:21 AM
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Every day I think at least once that I’ve made a mistake in bringing a child into this world. He is doomed to deal with a potentially disastrous ecology, a tenuous economic situation, and a fractious society that shows signs of disintegration. I could do what everybody else I know is doing and simply ignore it knowing that I’ll likely be dead before the worst of it comes to fruition, but I can’t help but feel guilty about it. The worst part is that there’s nothing I can do about it. I am but one of 7 billion or so people, and who am I in that context? I can’t tell the other 5 billion people that they can’t live better lives because the lifestyle my child is being raised in has damaged things to such an extent that for them to live that way will wreck the planet beyond recognition.

And yet, I still have to work, which means driving. And I still have to pay the bills, heat my house, feed everyone, and somehow make all of that harmless while Jim Bob in Bumfuck rolls coal in his truck that gets 10 miles per gallon and votes for the dickbag that consistently vote to finish the destruction sooner rather than later.

If my son isn’t doomed my grandchildren will be. Of all the things I’ve done, that may end up being the most irresponsible. I love my son. How do I tell him that he’s screwed? How can he possibly understand how screwed he really is?

Some of you might read this and say I’m way off base, that I’m exaggerating the extent of the disaster that awaits us. Time will tell. I’d like to think that I am a rational, intelligent, thoughtful person. It would be easier if I were an idiot, because then I wouldn’t care.
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