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  #651  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:16 AM
Gary Kumquat Gary Kumquat is online now
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
I was more focused and appalled by the attack on my kid.
I agree, it's not cool to bring anyone's kids into a discussion like that, but to be honest I use my kids as the baseline for what behaviour/language I find acceptable. Call my daughter an idiot because you disagree with her politics...well I won't like it, but I'd at least listen to your point so I can rebut it (or maybe agree with it). Call her a slut because of her politics...well that's just wholly unacceptable.
  #652  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:22 AM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
Hamlet:

Thanks for understanding.
You're welcome. After 10+ years on this board, I'm used to hoping for debate and getting nothing of substance, "misunderstandings", and the rewriting of the history of threads by others. Maybe not from you personally, though.

But if you ever find yourself with a few spare minutes, maybe think about your views of anti-discrimination (both racial and sexual orientation) laws and your view of the cost/benefit analysis of their enactment.

And then if you find yourself with a few minutes nearby your phone or computer and you're not busy defending silly slurs from years ago or hiding behind quips, maybe re-read our posts in this thread. Then, maybe, just maybe, get some spine and let me know what you honestly think about anti-discrimination laws.

Last edited by Hamlet; 10-09-2018 at 11:25 AM.
  #653  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:26 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Man the most successful conservative comedian is Dennis Miller. This is a bit like if the most successful conservative politician was a state senator in Montana. I think the problem is that you just aren't very funny, and much of your humor relies on the person telling the joke and the person hearing the joke being really shitty people, so people take you seriously instead.
As I said, not talking about the media. I am talking about people.

A conservative humor show is a dangerous proposition. The left uses offendability as a weapon to shut down opposing viewpoints. Showing Republican conservative tendencies in Hollywood is career suicide.
  #654  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:34 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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Hamlet:

I don’t want to debate discrimination laws with you.

I really didn’t want to debate a six year old thread with iandyiii, but he was nice and pleasant and made it interesting and challenging.

You are not doing any of those things, so it’s not an attractive proposition.

Throwing a fit and taunting and trying to bully me into it like a spoiled 5 year old is not going to work.

Later,
  #655  
Old 10-09-2018, 11:45 AM
Gary Kumquat Gary Kumquat is online now
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The left uses offendability as a weapon to shut down opposing viewpoints.
I'm guessing you didn't see any of the Gamergate controversies if you think it's only the left who try to shut down opposing viewpoints.
  #656  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:06 PM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
Hamlet:

I don’t want to debate discrimination laws with you.

I really didn’t want to debate a six year old thread with iandyiii, but he was nice and pleasant and made it interesting and challenging.

You are not doing any of those things, so it’s not an attractive proposition.

Throwing a fit and taunting and trying to bully me into it like a spoiled 5 year old is not going to work.

Later,
I get it, it's not a discussion you want to have. Hell, I got it awhile ago, when, even after I wrangled in the discussion and laid out a couple simple questions for you and you didn't respond. I knew then you didn't want to actually debate about anti-discrimination laws, instead you want to hide behind a combination of supposedly witty comments, false accusations, and hurt feelings. I completely and utterly understand this isn't a discussion you want to have.

I also know the real reason why you don't want to. Not this pouty "you're too mean to me" tripe that is straight out of the "liberals are too mean to conservatives, that's why they lose elections" book.

But keep selling it. I'm sure someone will buy it.
  #657  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:08 PM
Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise is offline
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Is bigotry stemming from ignorance better or worse than bigotry stemming from careful thought?

Hmm, I think this thread may be answering this question for me.


But this, for me, is the most burning question in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
What the ever-loving fuck are you even talking about?
  #658  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:12 PM
Stanislaus Stanislaus is online now
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My background is both conservative and one where insults are pretty much background noise.
I'll say! Look how that whole "brazen slut" post started:

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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
I have lost all hope for you people.
This place really has turned into the left-wing moron society.
If anyone takes offence at that, it's their fault for not understanding Scylla's background. Not his. Why, where he comes from, this is basically flirting. If it sounds to you like belligerent contempt you probably won't be able to appreciate the ironic, witty subtlety of his argument here, and you'd likely overlook the masterful use of language entirely:

Quote:
As 2012 rolls along Obama, like any good Democrat, knows he needs to court one of his biggest bases, stupid, easily manipulated women.

So what he does make up this issue that "Hey, Catholic universities should have to offer birth control" which he knows is unconstitutional, but it's the gesture that counts, and if they can't do it, then insurance companies can, right?

Then he gets this brazen slut to chum the waters for stupid Republican by suggesting we should pay for her birth control (when you pay for my beer I'll consider it.)

Now that a couple of people said this was a bad idea and Rush called the brazen slut, a "slut," Obama can call her up and offer her his sympathies and show he cares about women's rights , and thereby secure the vote of stupid and easily manipulated women.
The tragedy is that by this point you're probably so riled up by your unflexible approach to the associations of Scylla's language that you'll likely mistake this perfectly constructed and really well-intentioned metaphor as ugly contempt for women who disagree with Scylla:
Quote:
I don't who the dumbest morons are

Is it the stupid easily manipulated women for whom this is targeted, who seem to enjoy the passive aggressive manipulation and are drawn to it the way a hooker is drawn to the abusive charisma of her pimp?
Now, of course its likely (practically a certainty) that some of the women who did think this issue was a big deal (and were thus easily manipulate dolts akin to abused and exploited sex workers, yadda yadda) were posting in that very thread. I think it's worth pointing out now that it's unlikely in the extreme that this idea had ever occured to Scylla, still less the obvious implication that he was thus directly insulting posters in what many would consider to fairly gross terms. As we discover below, Scylla has very strong opinions about the propriety of using derogatory sexual terms to refer to specific women. (Some might say he sees the cultural and repressive associations of this language as hard and built in.)

Let's all take a moment now to think of Scylla, and the wounding shock he felt when people made some totally unjustified and dogmatic assumptions about what he really meant when he posted the above, and concluded - so falsely! - that he was being deliberately offensive in some way.

Luckily of course, he comes from a background where insults are just noise, so the frankly unjustified response was all water off a duck's back.

But no!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
Iandyiii:

Perhaps I was asked. I did not notice. I was more focused and appalled by the attack on my kid. I think suggesting that I ignored good faith attempts at understanding is false, and I hope that is not the implication. The environment was hostile and not conducive to understanding. Nobody there was doing anything to stop the people that were attacking me and my family in an over the top fashion. This is fine. It’s not there job. I was there willingly, and it was my own mess, but if they were not interested criticizing that, I can’t give a fuck about their criticism of me.
"The environment was hostile, and not conducive to understanding." Never were truer or sadder words written. Quite how the environment came to be hostile, and just how the positive atmosphere of good-faith exploration of opposing ideas that Scylla had worked so diligently to create and nurture had so speedily evaporated, are mysteries we shall never truly plumb.

In other words,

1) If you're going to come into a thread like Billy Big-balls and play the "I'm just forthright, plain-spoken; I use my words my way and if you're upset that's your problem, not mine" card and then turn around and play the "You're all being terribly mean so I can't possibly be expected to face up to your criticism" card when the atmosphere inexplicably turns sour.

2) "I was just being ironic"? No, you were being crudely offensive about women to own the libs, and it worked better than you thought. At least own it.
  #659  
Old 10-09-2018, 12:12 PM
Modesty Blaise Modesty Blaise is offline
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
As I said, not talking about the media. I am talking about people.

A conservative humor show is a dangerous proposition. The left uses offendability as a weapon to shut down opposing viewpoints. Showing Republican conservative tendencies in Hollywood is career suicide.
Conservatives don’t do comedy cuz liberals will be mean to them?

That’s some wild snowflakery right there.
  #660  
Old 10-09-2018, 05:33 PM
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Should municipalities, states, and the federal government enact legislation that protects from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Why or why not.

Should they have done the same for discrimination on the basis of race? Why or why not?

What, if anything, are the relevant differences between the two.
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
If i’m Tedious stop wasting your time and mine. I don’t want to take your bigotry test.

What if this pleasant and considerate poster asked you to answer those questions, ok?
Cool?
  #661  
Old 10-09-2018, 05:34 PM
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Sadly, the world will never experience the Scylla Punchdown Comedy Hour.1












1Mostly unfair jab IMHO, but hopefully amusing.
  #662  
Old 10-09-2018, 06:05 PM
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Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
As I said, not talking about the media. I am talking about people.

A conservative humor show is a dangerous proposition. The left uses offendability as a weapon to shut down opposing viewpoints. Showing Republican conservative tendencies in Hollywood is career suicide.
Counterpoint: http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-awful-...vative-comedy/
So now we have a target and we can decide on an angle. It might be funny to try to figure out why Republicans would choose Roy Moore as their leader. Maybe conservatives vote for child predators because it's the only way their sons will ever get laid? No, it's a bit dark, and we'd have to first establish how religious contrarians who hate women and sexuality as a policy aren't good at seduction. It's clunky. Let's try some wit instead of insults. How about "When you're a sex criminal and a campaigning senator, do you go door-to-door twice, or do you inform your neighbors of both during the same trip?" We're getting there, but we may be forgetting to account for the pushback from political opponents who will argue "Not ALL of us want to be led by child predators!" And it's true. Roy Moore, leering panty sniffer, wasn't representative of all Republicans. He was merely fully endorsed by the their National Committee and their leader, the actual president of the United States. You know what? Let's take a peek at how conservative cartoonist Ben Garrison handled a Roy Moore joke.

That nonsensical shit is what happens when your politics force you to take the side of a ... hold on, this can't be right ... child predator. Did you see how much fun we were having when we were writing jokes from the good side of history? We were going all different directions, being mean and silly an- oh! We could do a sketch wherein Roy Moore gets a job at a colonial doll store and can't concentrate because of all the sexy child toys! Sorry, I thought there was something there. The point is, when you are required to defend the indefensible, you spend all your time on myopic little arguments instead of hilarity. A conservative version of Roy Moore getting a job at a colonial doll store wouldn't be fun. It would be him selling dresses and accessories while his lawyer explains how it never occurred to his client to have intercourse with all the precious white dolls. To which Roy would add, "And before anybody calls me a racist, this guy's a Jew!" That's a fun reference to the time Roy Moore's wife proved he wasn't antisemitic by declaring that one of their attorneys ... WAS A JEW. Then, in a fun twist, no he wasn't. If you haven't figured it out by now, Roy Moore gives any comedian more material than they can handle. So let's take another look at how conservative cartoonist Ben Garrison handled it.

Hopefully you're starting to see why conservative comedy is hard, if not impossible. Like every time you're mocking things from the dumb side, Ben Garrison's comedy options were limited to calling everyone a liar, arguing how evil things are fine, or meekly insulting the other guys. None of those are very funny, and the best-case scenario is that they distract your audience from the premise of your own joke.
Also, political correctness? Really? Have you watched any standup recently? If you're actually funny, the list of things you "can't get away with" pretty much begins with "federal crimes", and given Louis CK's comeback, even that's probably not enough to keep a good comic down, as much as we might wish it was. Don't believe me? Go watch some fucking standup! Jimmy Carr, Frankie Boyle, Louis CK, George Carlin, Bill Hicks, Carlos Mencia, Jeff Dunham, Seth Meyers, Samantha Bee... If your jokes are actually funny and connect with the audience, even if that audience is fuckin' stupid (lookin' at you, literally anyone who didn't change the channel on Mind of Mencia without being incredibly high at the time) you can get away with some pretty sick shit. Or just use a framing device - it could be as basic as "the joke is actually that the character I am portraying on stage is a completely irredeemable bastard" - i.e. Jimmy Carr's entire schtick, or most Family Guy characters.

The problem is, most right-wing comics just aren't very funny. As said - Dennis Miller is the best you have to offer, and it only goes downhill from there. So when they crack "jokes" that are basically a nonsense slurry of words and shitty bigoted bullshit, people don't give them pass on the latter because the former ain't funny.
  #663  
Old 10-09-2018, 07:54 PM
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coffeecat coffeecat is online now
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iiandyiiii—I think the TLDR summary of your post to me is, "Coffeecat, what the fuck are you talking about?" Unfortunately, I don't grok your confusion, so I don't know what to do but rephrase what I said the first time and hope that I'm lucky enough to be clearer the second time around.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Disagree with the first sentence, but I'm baffled by the rest of this paragraph... no idea what this is responding to (especially the "brainwashed" stuff about sex).
I understood you to say that straight white men oppress women by making them follow restrictive sexual mores. I'm saying that, as a straight white male, it is not to my advantage to make women follow restrictive sexual mores. Women seem to prefer their restrictive sexual mores. If I'm wrong, I encourage them to be individuals and go their own way, but I respect them too much to pressure them on what seems to be a touchy subject.
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This too. No idea what this is attempting to refute. It doesn't appear to conflict with my points, aside from the first sentence, perhaps, but I'm not exactly sure what even that one means.
I understood you to say that straight white men oppress women by making them do unimportant jobs like housework and childcare. I say no, housework and childcare are vital; they're foolishly regarded as unimportant because they're traditionally women's work.
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I think this actually illustrates one of the ways in which the patriarchal hierarchical system of gender roles harms men. Men also have relatively narrow roles in traditional society, and this is also bad.
I understood you to say that "slut" has no masculine equivalent. I say yes, it does. I agree with the above quote; it's my point.
Quote:
Okay, we disagree on whether "slut" is a misogynistic slur -- I think it's a slur because, for one thing, it often is used against women for reasons other than their promiscuity (and even if it was only about promiscuity, I would still think it would be a slur -- there's nothing intrinsically wrong about promiscuity, and there's no countarpart for promiscuous men, and promiscuity has been an excuse to oppress women but not men, etc.). Tons of women have been called "sluts" for the way they dress, or their body shape, or even just their political or philosophical views about life and gender roles.
A word can be used against women without being a slur. I gave examples of such words in my previous post.
Quote:
Not sure what the rest of these paragraphs are trying to argue... they don't seem to address much, if anything, of what I've posted.
They don't directly address your post. They're other thoughts of mine on the subject, namely—

"Slut" is a slur against promiscuous women and, as you say, such women have nothing to be ashamed of, but if we're consistent in banning dumb sexual insults, we'll scarcely have any insults left. I don't think most inhabitants of the pit want that, although maybe they should.

Finally, I tried to say that because major bigotry has done so much horrible damage, we overreact to even a possible hint of trivial bigotry, get ridiculously judgemental, and overlook bigger problems. Let's keep our perspective and remember "good enough" is a thing.

HTH.
  #664  
Old 10-10-2018, 02:26 AM
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No wonder with all this potty-mouthed slut talk I misread that "e" for an "o" in the thread title.
  #665  
Old 10-10-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
iiandyiiii—I think the TLDR summary of your post to me is, "Coffeecat, what the fuck are you talking about?" Unfortunately, I don't grok your confusion, so I don't know what to do but rephrase what I said the first time and hope that I'm lucky enough to be clearer the second time around.

I understood you to say that straight white men oppress women by making them follow restrictive sexual mores. I'm saying that, as a straight white male, it is not to my advantage to make women follow restrictive sexual mores. Women seem to prefer their restrictive sexual mores. If I'm wrong, I encourage them to be individuals and go their own way, but I respect them too much to pressure them on what seems to be a touchy subject.
That's not what I'm saying -- I'm talking about systems and institutions. Our society, which has changed over time (and mostly for the better), still has somewhat traditional and oppressive gender roles, and generally more so for women. Expecially regarding sex. In my experience from talking to women, they would generally before to be free to make whatever choices they would like with consenting adults without highly unbalanced societal condemnation.

Quote:
I understood you to say that straight white men oppress women by making them do unimportant jobs like housework and childcare. I say no, housework and childcare are vital; they're foolishly regarded as unimportant because they're traditionally women's work.
Again, this is about society, culture, and institutions, not "straight white men", but I don't understand what the point of this distinction is (and I never called any jobs "unimportant").

Quote:
I understood you to say that "slut" has no masculine equivalent. I say yes, it does. I agree with the above quote; it's my point.
There is no equivalent that's about sexual shaming. Men are not shamed for promiscuity, in general. In many ways, we're praised if we're promiscuous.

Quote:
A word can be used against women without being a slur. I gave examples of such words in my previous post.
This doesn't refute my point. Okay, you think slur is a word that "can be used against women without being a slur". I think it's a slur. Contradicting me is not an argument.
  #666  
Old 10-10-2018, 10:16 PM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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More for Ianndyii and Coffecat to think about on the subject of somen

Men outnumber women in prison in this country
By more than 10 to 1 (and though the statistics are difficult to produce, a sizable percentage of those women who are in jail, are there as accessories or accomplices to men they got mixed up with.)

The worst,truly dangerous, backbreaking, horrible, maiming and life threatening jobs like roughnecking in Alaska, are almost completely done by men. It’s the men who historically fight and most likely die in wars. Men tend to die 8 years earlier than women. Men tend to get shafted in divorces in this country.

None of this is to say that men have it tougher than women. To say that one has it tougher than the other is stupid, because men and women are different. They both suffer horribly. As Jim Morrison puts it “no one here gets out alive.” The challenges are different.

Up until very recently in history, the human life you were mostly likely to experience was one of almost constant suffering. It had nothing to do with your gender. Life was just very very hard.

There is no doubt that the suffering perpetrated on women by men both historically and into today is vastly greater as to render the converse infinitesimal. None of this should be interpreted as to excuse or ignore this. My point is that men do pay a price for their greater aggressiveness, disagreableness, and physical strength. Testosterone comes with its downsides.

As society evolves, and technology evolves, the historic male advantages of strength, aggressiveness and disagreeableness have far less utility, and can actually become disadvantages. Female qualities of greater conscientiousness, and social acumen are much more highly valued. Women are taking over traditional male roles in medicine, and receiving more advanced degrees.

As the world improves and becomes more and more civilized it is becoming a women’s world, one where women have the natural advantage.

While the above is settled biology, and psychology, my own personal observation is that women are immensely tougher than men, both mentally and physically. The Air Force did studies that show that women can handle more G force than men. I run marathons and ultra marathons. In ultra-running magazine, I read that the overall finish rate for one 100 miler was 60%. Women are only 15% of the starting field, but there finish rate was over 90%. This disparity is common. Women often win these races outright. Anne Trayson dominated both Leadville and the Western States for nearly a decade. If you run ultramarathons like I do, and you are a male, like I am, you will suffer a humbling phenomenon. As you stagger, crying and incoherent in the latter miles, you will get passed over and other by women, trotting by, looking fresh, singly, or chatting, and laughing amiably in pairs as if they were out for a light jog (this may actually be the only time where violent thoughts against women are justified (I kid.). This is such a common and humbling phenomenon in the ultra running community, that we have given it a name. It’s called getting “chicked.” As in, “I was doing well until the last right miles when I ran out of gas and got “chicked.”

In my home, and I suspect many others, I am not the boss. I am put in charge of things, and I am certainly granted authority, and sometimes it seems like I am in charge. But I am not. Throughout my married life, I have found that most of my direction was really not chosen by myself, and I don’t mean I received guidance or help. I mean I was told what to do by the women in my life. I am happy with this arrangement. I suspect that this is pretty common.

Nowadays, I do it mostly out of habit “training” may be the better word. As a young man I became a victim of The Great Ejaculation Control Conspiracy (while all males are aware of this, it was Neal Stephenson who first described it.)

The GECC is simply that while a male can execute a manual override, all of the good ejaculations are controlled by women, and if you want to have them, you are going to have to keep the women in your life happy and do what they say. Women speak to each other and work together, and if a male sufficiently displeases the matriarchy he may find himself shunned and deprived I quality ejaculations. While this last part is meant to be amusing the fact is that there is a lot of truth to it. A quality ejaculation facilitated by a women is something a young male heterosexual desperately values, and such a man must choose between forgoing such a thing, attempting to take it by force (and risking the consequences,) or of submitting to the GECC, in order to receive lawful and female approved ejaculations.

Again, none of this is to suggest that there is any excuse for violence against women, and there is certainly a lot of truth in the historic injustices of male dominated society, but this not a complete and accurate picture.

Women are not and have never been without their weapons. Without their Men with a shred of wisdom know this. “Hell hath no fury...”

To suggest otherwise is both demeaning to women, and to give too much credit to men. Again societal improvements tend to benefit women more than men. If there is to be a modern war of the sexes, men are going to lose. I have daughters. I am ok this. But I do worry for my brother who has boys. They may very well be at a disadvantage by the time they grow up, if they aren’t already. Women apparently already outnumber men in colleges and graduate schools across the country. It seems like [b]iandyiii[/] is inferring that as men we should feel guilty concerning women, or sorry for them. I don’t. I think I think better of them than that.

So, I don’t think I am unjustified in saying that when I read through Iandyii and his posts discussing the patriarchy and the subjugation of women, that he is living in the past, and just a piece of it. He dorsn’t Have the whole picture. The present is different, and the future belongs to women.

(That was really fun to write)

Last edited by Scylla; 10-10-2018 at 10:20 PM.
  #667  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:43 AM
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The Librarian The Librarian is offline
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@Scylla: MRA talking points? Really? We’re really scraping the bottom here.
__________________
Oook!
  #668  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:35 AM
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Budget Player Cadet Budget Player Cadet is online now
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Originally Posted by Scylla View Post
In my home, and I suspect many others, I am not the boss. I am put in charge of things, and I am certainly granted authority, and sometimes it seems like I am in charge. But I am not. Throughout my married life, I have found that most of my direction was really not chosen by myself, and I don’t mean I received guidance or help. I mean I was told what to do by the women in my life. I am happy with this arrangement. I suspect that this is pretty common.
This seems like a "you" problem. If you feel like you lack control in your home life and you're not happy with it, you should talk to your spouse. A lot of it has to do with learned helplessness - i.e. men often don't make those decisions because you don't want to, and it's easier to leave that work up to the women, even if it means they make more of the decisions - in fact, because it means they make more of the decisions. In most cases, this is not the disadvantage for men you paint it as.

Quote:
As a young man I became a victim of The Great Ejaculation Control Conspiracy (while all males are aware of this, it was Neal Stephenson who first described it.)

The GECC is simply that while a male can execute a manual override, all of the good ejaculations are controlled by women, and if you want to have them, you are going to have to keep the women in your life happy and do what they say. Women speak to each other and work together, and if a male sufficiently displeases the matriarchy he may find himself shunned and deprived I quality ejaculations. While this last part is meant to be amusing the fact is that there is a lot of truth to it. A quality ejaculation facilitated by a women is something a young male heterosexual desperately values, and such a man must choose between forgoing such a thing, attempting to take it by force (and risking the consequences,) or of submitting to the GECC, in order to receive lawful and female approved ejaculations.
Man you almost went a whole post without posting something insane and offensive. Almost. What the fuck even is this entitled whiny bullshit? "WAAAH IF I WANT TO HAVE SEX I HAVE TO NOT BE A DOUCHEBAG! WAAAAAAH!!" Hey buddy, fun fact: women have the exact same problem. Except that they not only have to find someone willing to have sex with them, but that someone has to not be a selfish douchebag and often has to be willing to do more than just fuck them - which is harder than it sounds. And during that whole rigmarole, they have to constantly be looking over their shoulder in case the nice man who asked them out to dinner is going to try to "manually bypass" the "GECC" by raping them. And I somehow doubt that Neal Stephenson is quite as much a tool as you make him sound like. And so paranoid. "Women speak to each other". "Displeases the matriarchy". Unless you live in Podunk, Nowhere, I guarantee you can find women who don't know each other. Jesus fucking christ, this is the "better" conservative. God save us all.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 10-11-2018 at 03:39 AM.
  #669  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:36 AM
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MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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"quality ejaculations"? That's some needy, whiny, entitled male bullshit right there. (ETA: I see BPC had that same idea, almost verbatim. Synchronicity!)

Question : Does American sex ed not teach that blue balls are a myth?

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-11-2018 at 03:37 AM.
  #670  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:37 AM
Stanislaus Stanislaus is online now
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
And I somehow doubt that Neal Stephenson is quite as much a tool as you make him sound like.
In the book, the GECC is the brainchild of a young man who is a brilliant mathematician but completely inept at all kinds of social relationships. Constructing the GECC is his way of explaining to himself the obvious fact that he's going to have start paying attention to how other people feel if he wants to get on in life. The theory that women are using men's sexual desire to civilise them is immediately and deliberately undercut by the character's reflection that he's in the middle of World War Fucking Two and Hitler doesn't seem to be under very much control at the moment.

The GECC is an obvious piece of juvenilia designed to give us an insight into how this imperfect character views the world. It's not a manifesto, nor is it anything grown ups should be expected to take seriously.
  #671  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:37 AM
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Men outnumber women in prison in this country
By more than 10 to 1 (and though the statistics are difficult to produce, a sizable percentage of those women who are in jail, are there as accessories or accomplices to men they got mixed up with.)

The worst,truly dangerous, backbreaking, horrible, maiming and life threatening jobs like roughnecking in Alaska, are almost completely done by men. It’s the men who historically fight and most likely die in wars. Men tend to die 8 years earlier than women. Men tend to get shafted in divorces in this country.

None of this is to say that men have it tougher than women. To say that one has it tougher than the other is stupid, because men and women are different. They both suffer horribly. As Jim Morrison puts it “no one here gets out alive.” The challenges are different.

Up until very recently in history, the human life you were mostly likely to experience was one of almost constant suffering. It had nothing to do with your gender. Life was just very very hard.

There is no doubt that the suffering perpetrated on women by men both historically and into today is vastly greater as to render the converse infinitesimal. None of this should be interpreted as to excuse or ignore this. My point is that men do pay a price for their greater aggressiveness, disagreableness, and physical strength. Testosterone comes with its downsides.

As society evolves, and technology evolves, the historic male advantages of strength, aggressiveness and disagreeableness have far less utility, and can actually become disadvantages. Female qualities of greater conscientiousness, and social acumen are much more highly valued. Women are taking over traditional male roles in medicine, and receiving more advanced degrees.

As the world improves and becomes more and more civilized it is becoming a women’s world, one where women have the natural advantage.

While the above is settled biology, and psychology, my own personal observation is that women are immensely tougher than men, both mentally and physically. The Air Force did studies that show that women can handle more G force than men. I run marathons and ultra marathons. In ultra-running magazine, I read that the overall finish rate for one 100 miler was 60%. Women are only 15% of the starting field, but there finish rate was over 90%. This disparity is common. Women often win these races outright. Anne Trayson dominated both Leadville and the Western States for nearly a decade. If you run ultramarathons like I do, and you are a male, like I am, you will suffer a humbling phenomenon. As you stagger, crying and incoherent in the latter miles, you will get passed over and other by women, trotting by, looking fresh, singly, or chatting, and laughing amiably in pairs as if they were out for a light jog (this may actually be the only time where violent thoughts against women are justified (I kid.). This is such a common and humbling phenomenon in the ultra running community, that we have given it a name. It’s called getting “chicked.” As in, “I was doing well until the last right miles when I ran out of gas and got “chicked.”

In my home, and I suspect many others, I am not the boss. I am put in charge of things, and I am certainly granted authority, and sometimes it seems like I am in charge. But I am not. Throughout my married life, I have found that most of my direction was really not chosen by myself, and I don’t mean I received guidance or help. I mean I was told what to do by the women in my life. I am happy with this arrangement. I suspect that this is pretty common.

Nowadays, I do it mostly out of habit “training” may be the better word. As a young man I became a victim of The Great Ejaculation Control Conspiracy (while all males are aware of this, it was Neal Stephenson who first described it.)

The GECC is simply that while a male can execute a manual override, all of the good ejaculations are controlled by women, and if you want to have them, you are going to have to keep the women in your life happy and do what they say. Women speak to each other and work together, and if a male sufficiently displeases the matriarchy he may find himself shunned and deprived I quality ejaculations. While this last part is meant to be amusing the fact is that there is a lot of truth to it. A quality ejaculation facilitated by a women is something a young male heterosexual desperately values, and such a man must choose between forgoing such a thing, attempting to take it by force (and risking the consequences,) or of submitting to the GECC, in order to receive lawful and female approved ejaculations.

Again, none of this is to suggest that there is any excuse for violence against women, and there is certainly a lot of truth in the historic injustices of male dominated society, but this not a complete and accurate picture.

Women are not and have never been without their weapons. Without their Men with a shred of wisdom know this. “Hell hath no fury...”

To suggest otherwise is both demeaning to women, and to give too much credit to men. Again societal improvements tend to benefit women more than men. If there is to be a modern war of the sexes, men are going to lose. I have daughters. I am ok this. But I do worry for my brother who has boys. They may very well be at a disadvantage by the time they grow up, if they aren’t already. Women apparently already outnumber men in colleges and graduate schools across the country. It seems like [b]iandyiii[/] is inferring that as men we should feel guilty concerning women, or sorry for them. I don’t. I think I think better of them than that.

So, I don’t think I am unjustified in saying that when I read through Iandyii and his posts discussing the patriarchy and the subjugation of women, that he is living in the past, and just a piece of it. He dorsn’t Have the whole picture. The present is different, and the future belongs to women.

(That was really fun to write)
This doesn't appear to actually conflict with any of my actual words.
  #672  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanislaus View Post
In the book, the GECC is the brainchild of a young man who is a brilliant mathematician but completely inept at all kinds of social relationships. Constructing the GECC is his way of explaining to himself the obvious fact that he's going to have start paying attention to how other people feel if he wants to get on in life. The theory that women are using men's sexual desire to civilise them is immediately and deliberately undercut by the character's reflection that he's in the middle of World War Fucking Two and Hitler doesn't seem to be under very much control at the moment.

The GECC is an obvious piece of juvenilia designed to give us an insight into how this imperfect character views the world. It's not a manifesto, nor is it anything grown ups should be expected to take seriously.
Yeah that sounds more realistic.
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  #673  
Old 10-11-2018, 05:53 AM
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Question : Does American sex ed not teach that blue balls are a myth?
It barely teaches anything, to the extent it exists at all. And many places it just teaches "sex is evil".
  #674  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:46 AM
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It barely teaches anything, to the extent it exists at all. And many places it just teaches "sex is evil".

Don't many jurisdictions allow parents to "opt out" their kids from sex education classes?
  #675  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:58 AM
Scylla Scylla is offline
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This doesn't appear to actually conflict with any of my actual words.
Actually, it does.

You have argued that there is a history of cultural and physical oppression against women, and this has insinuated itself into our language and behavior, in such a way as to reinforce this lesser status that demeans women.

I am pointing out this is a woefully inadequate summation of both historical and present circumstances, that men have their own challenges, and women have their advantages, and this has also been so. As society has improved, the scales may be tipping and women gaining the advantage.

Further, that women, as a group, or singly need defending as a marginalized part of society would have much merit 100 years ago. It is woefully out of date and backwards today. Such an attitude is actually demeaning to women and contributes to the very attitudes that you despise. They don’t need your help.

Fluke knew exactly what she was doing. She planned it out, and executed her public action deliberately.

I disagree with her. To go after her and her stance in the strongest possible way, is a sign that I consider her an equal. If I were to hold back and not attack her the way I would a man, would suggest that she is an inferior. I considered her and her arguments formidable. Women today are formidable. In the war of ideas, and in the forum of message board, I have no gender based advantage over her.

It’s pretty much a direct refutation of what you have been arguing.
  #676  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:00 AM
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Yeah that sounds more realistic.
There’s this thing called “a grain of salt.” Take one and read it again.
  #677  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:19 AM
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There’s this thing called “a grain of salt.” Take one and read it again.
So best case scenario you cited someone who's shitty in his fantasy writing, well done.

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I disagree with her. To go after her and her stance in the strongest possible way, is a sign that I consider her an equal. If I were to hold back and not attack her the way I would a man, would suggest that she is an inferior. I considered her and her arguments formidable. Women today are formidable. In the war of ideas, and in the forum of message board, I have no gender based advantage over her.
"Hey, I have to call you a nigger. If I don't, it means I don't consider you an equal because I'm holding back and not attacking you."

Bit of a shit argument, mate. You don't need to use slurs like that to push back against ideas you don't like. In fact, doing so just makes you look like a shit person. A slur isn't an argument. It's just an ad hominem.
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  #678  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:26 AM
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Actually, it does.

You have argued that there is a history of cultural and physical oppression against women, and this has insinuated itself into our language and behavior, in such a way as to reinforce this lesser status that demeans women.
This is a pretty good summation of what I've argued. There's more to it, of course, but this isn't bad at all.

Quote:
I am pointing out this is a woefully inadequate summation of both historical and present circumstances, that men have their own challenges, and women have their advantages, and this has also been so. As society has improved, the scales may be tipping and women gaining the advantage.
So here's where we differ -- I think things have changed and are continuing to change, but the scales are still woefully out of balance, in general, mostly to the detriment of women (there are also ways in which men, especially minority and low income men, are disproportionately harmed by this system).

Quote:
Further, that women, as a group, or singly need defending as a marginalized part of society would have much merit 100 years ago. It is woefully out of date and backwards today. Such an attitude is actually demeaning to women and contributes to the very attitudes that you despise. They don’t need your help.
Accurately recounting history and the present circumstances (as I understand them) doesn't deman anyone or contribute to any negative attitudes. Further, it helps everyone. Society will be in a better place for everyone, aside from perhaps the very rich and powerful, if we had a gender-equal (and race-equal and every other type of equality) and fair society.

Quote:
Fluke knew exactly what she was doing. She planned it out, and executed her public action deliberately.

I disagree with her. To go after her and her stance in the strongest possible way, is a sign that I consider her an equal. If I were to hold back and not attack her the way I would a man, would suggest that she is an inferior. I considered her and her arguments formidable. Women today are formidable. In the war of ideas, and in the forum of message board, I have no gender based advantage over her.

It’s pretty much a direct refutation of what you have been arguing.
None of this justifies using a hateful and demeaning slur. I seriously doubt you would have called a man making exactly the same argument a "brazen slut". Further, I seriously doubt you would have called a black person making the same argument a n***** (if you would, then I've seriously misjudged you). But you are willing to use a hateful and demeaning slur against women. Which, IMO, says that you either don't understand that "slut" and similar words are hateful and demaning slurs against women, or you have a deep-seated personal problem with women who speak out. I'm hopeful that it's the former, and my main hope in this discussion was to persuade you that these words are, in fact, hateful and demeaning slurs against women.
  #679  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:40 AM
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“Hateful and demeaning” is the meaning that you have installed into my insult. Words come with context, and have multiple meanings and associations. I wouldn’t use “nigger,” or cunt as insults because, because they don’t have a meaning or context that I feel or endorse.

You are insisting on a rigid and narrow interpretation of language that is unrealistic and ill defined.
  #680  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:54 AM
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“Hateful and demeaning” is the meaning that you have installed into my insult. Words come with context, and have multiple meanings and associations. I wouldn’t use “nigger,” or cunt as insults because, because they don’t have a meaning or context that I feel or endorse.

You are insisting on a rigid and narrow interpretation of language that is unrealistic and ill defined.
There are people (I grew up with many of them) who would say the same thing about n***** or other racial slurs as you do about "slut" -- insist that their usage is not hateful and demeaning to all. I think they're wrong, as you are about your usage. In effect, for a small number of words, the user's intent is utterly swamped by the cultural and societal context and wide understanding of the meaning of the word.

And I think you agree with me to some degree -- you seem to in the above paragraph about n***** and c***. You just don't agree with me about "slut". If so, that's where the difference lies -- you don't think that words goes into the same category as the others, while I think they are all hateful and demeaning slurs.
  #681  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:09 AM
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The latter two words have a rather narrow context for interpretation coming from me. I’m not a fan of either.

There is however, a wide spectrum of sluts😛
  #682  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:16 AM
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The latter two words have a rather narrow context for interpretation coming from me. I’m not a fan of either.

There is however, a wide spectrum of sluts😛
Yeah, you’re a sexist piece of shit.
  #683  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:19 AM
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The latter two words have a rather narrow context for interpretation coming from me. I’m not a fan of either.

There is however, a wide spectrum of sluts😛
So we've drilled down to the bottom of our disagreement. I'd just say imagine how you'd feel if someone used n***** to describe an outspoken black person who said something they disagreed with politically, and I think you'll understand how I feel about your description of Sandra Fluke.
  #684  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:25 AM
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The latter two words have a rather narrow context for interpretation coming from me. I’m not a fan of either.

There is however, a wide spectrum of sluts😛
Right, which is why you took it so lightly when the word was applied to your daughters.
  #685  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:28 AM
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Nope. I’d still go with context.

I believe that exact same thing is happening to Kanye West, from other black people.

Black people use the word with each other casually. If they keep doing so, it will spill over into general usage, and become common, like what has happened with Queer (though that was never a nuclear bomb)

Language and context are in constant flux. Insisting on installing your meaning or only a single context is a mistake if communication is your goal.

To be fair “Brazen Slut” was the wrong word choice and your interpretation was fair and probably the preferred one based on my context and tone. Had I been otherwise toned down more, said “Brazen Hussy” we would probably not be having this discussion.
  #686  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:48 AM
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Nope. I’d still go with context.

I believe that exact same thing is happening to Kanye West, from other black people.

Black people use the word with each other casually. If they keep doing so, it will spill over into general usage, and become common, like what has happened with Queer (though that was never a nuclear bomb)

Language and context are in constant flux. Insisting on installing your meaning or only a single context is a mistake if communication is your goal.

To be fair “Brazen Slut” was the wrong word choice and your interpretation was fair and probably the preferred one based on my context and tone. Had I been otherwise toned down more, said “Brazen Hussy” we would probably not be having this discussion.
Okay. As this discussion winds down, I'll suggest kindly that perhaps you've internalized, to some degree, some of the patriarchal and misogynistic attitudes of broader society. Which isn't anything to be ashamed of necessarily, IMO, as long as one recognizes this possibility and tries to improve one's self. Most people are strongly influenced by the attitudes of the society and culture in which they reside.
  #687  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:13 AM
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I lost track of this thread and just clicked to read the last few posts to see where we were.

I've never heard of Ms. Fluke and don't care enough to click, but ...
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... “Brazen slut” describes just the amount of actual disapproval to show that I am not on her side, but the archaism shows that it is not a full strength use of “slut,” and in fact is referential that we are talking about a sexual thing....

Language is a wonderful and beautiful thing. I am known on this board for being slightly internet famous for my humorous anecdotes. I was being humorous and witty and making an argument simultaneously.

I thought it was ironic and clever and smart....
I am also a fan of clever use of language. But the primary function of language is communication. I doubt that the particular connotations of "brazen slut" you hint at will be generally understood.

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Y’all might not be aware of it, but to Republicans, conservatives and the apolitical, talking to the left is like visiting the planet of humorless literalism.
Is this more "clever" hyperbole?

If you're Scylla I think I'd rather read posts by Charybdis.
  #688  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:24 AM
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That is certainly true. I might suggest that if you are roughed up enough over some random asshole on the internet saying “slut” six years ago, than it is possible that you may be overly focused on this issue.

If one is very interested and concerned about an issue, one tends to see and interpret everything in terms of that issue.

For me, I address my advantage in life by making sure that I am directly involved both financially and by commitment of time in two worthy causes at a given time.

I have worked with, volunteered and served on the board of an organization that helped extract women from physically abusive relationships (this organization sadly went under.). I still volunteer providing financial resources to divorcees who are suffering under the burden of having to handle issues that their husbands may not have allowed them to.

That’s two that i’ve done, directly benefitting disadvantaged women.

I have no idea, what you do in real life, but my personal attitude is somewhat disparaging of PC culture, or of correcting speech as a mechanism for social change, which I sometimes see as empty “virtue signaling.”

To be clear, I don’t think this is what you are doing, and the quality of your debate dismisses this possibility. You are rare, though.

You have indeed given me food for thought, and if I was to distill down everything you said into a nugget, it would be simply that good manners are good manners.
  #689  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:32 AM
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That is certainly true. I might suggest that if you are roughed up enough over some random asshole on the internet saying “slut” six years ago, than it is possible that you may be overly focused on this issue.

If one is very interested and concerned about an issue, one tends to see and interpret everything in terms of that issue.

For me, I address my advantage in life by making sure that I am directly involved both financially and by commitment of time in two worthy causes at a given time.

I have worked with, volunteered and served on the board of an organization that helped extract women from physically abusive relationships (this organization sadly went under.). I still volunteer providing financial resources to divorcees who are suffering under the burden of having to handle issues that their husbands may not have allowed them to.

That’s two that i’ve done, directly benefitting disadvantaged women.

I have no idea, what you do in real life, but my personal attitude is somewhat disparaging of PC culture, or of correcting speech as a mechanism for social change, which I sometimes see as empty “virtue signaling.”

To be clear, I don’t think this is what you are doing, and the quality of your debate dismisses this possibility. You are rare, though.

You have indeed given me food for thought, and if I was to distill down everything you said into a nugget, it would be simply that good manners are good manners.
Thanks for engaging. For what it's worth, I'll say that many, maybe even most, good and decent people also have some bigotries and biases that they're unaware of, and I wouldn't exempt myself (I'll just say that I'm trying to find these flaws within myself in order to correct them). And actions, of course, like volunteering for worthy causes, are more important than flippant words on an internet message board. But it can still be a good thing to talk about the latter.
  #690  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:37 AM
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Yes, and your example in this regard and your courtesy and condidersation, is to me the strongest indicator of both the strength and merit of your convictions.

They are worthy of emulation.
  #691  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:47 AM
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Thank you for the kind words, and I appreciate your courtesy and consideration as well.
  #692  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:53 AM
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Women today are formidable. In the war of ideas, and in the forum of message board, I have no gender based advantage over her.
You either have not been reading the threads where women talk about their experience here on the Dope, or you haven't been listening.
  #693  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:22 AM
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Yeah, you’re a sexist piece of shit.
Six years from now, iandyiii is going to show up and make you pay for that.
  #694  
Old 10-11-2018, 12:21 PM
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Conservatives don’t do comedy cuz liberals will be mean to them?

That’s some wild snowflakery right there.
Heh heh. Only they are allowed to be mean spirited spiteful lying selfish assholes. It's in the rule book (which they made up).
  #695  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:01 PM
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Six years from now, iandyiii is going to show up and make you pay for that.
Not only are you trash, you delight in being trash. You take joy in repeating 'sluts' because it gives you power in a life that probably doesn't have much. Fear, rage and self-loathing are at the heart of conservatism; fear that you don't matter, rage at the fact that people that don't look like you want their seat at the table and self-loathing because deep down you know you're weak. Meanwhile humanity is just waiting for people like you to get out of the way.e

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  #696  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:17 PM
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Not only are you trash, you delight in being trash. You take joy in repeating 'sluts' because it gives you power in a life that probably doesn't have much. Fear, rage and self-loathing are at the heart of conservatism; fear that you don't matter, rage at the fact that people that don't look like you want their seat at the table and self-loathing because deep down you know you're weak. Meanwhile humanity is just waiting for people like you to get out of the way.e

SLUTS!!! Great big Sweaty piles of Sluts! Sluts coated in cream cheese icing. Sluts!!!

Mwahahaha! Feel my power grow, and bow down before me. The more I say it the stronger I get!!!!!
  #697  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:39 PM
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iandyii

So here’s a question, earlier in the thread Simone suggested that I was a victim of the shouting majority or some such.

I believe I objected to that comparison because I thought it referenced you, and I thought we were having an interesting discussion.

I note (I’m not suggesting you do anything, or I need the help,). That your defensive instincts seem selective, at least in this thread.

I think there is a lot of what you might characterize as idiocy or hatred directed at me, in this thread.

Is it that I deserve it (maybe I do)?

Is it that you think I’m doing fine and no defense necessary?

Is it that I am part of a privileged oppressive class and deserve a taste of my own medicine?

Is it that i’m A man?

I think some of the attacks here have been dehumanizing by your standard, but it doesn’t look like you’ve chosen to address them.

It’s hard to take criticism seriously when it seems to be applied so selectively.

So far I have collected “bigot, worse than bigot, mysoginist, coward, trash”

So, if you are looking to call out bad behavior, you don’t need to go back 6 years.
  #698  
Old 10-11-2018, 01:59 PM
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Or is it that he's having a conversation with you and trying hard to ignore the noise?

(I'm picturing Hoover asking Boon to tell those assholes to shut up. "Hey, shut up, you assholes!")

Does it take away from twoeyesandyfoureyes' points if he does not play Whack-a-Mole with people being less kind than he? Because this is in the Pit, and I think the noise is to be expected.
  #699  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:07 PM
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Or is it that he's having a conversation with you and trying hard to ignore the noise?

(I'm picturing Hoover asking Boon to tell those assholes to shut up. "Hey, shut up, you assholes!")

Does it take away from twoeyesandyfoureyes' points if he does not play Whack-a-Mole with people being less kind than he? Because this is in the Pit, and I think the noise is to be expected.

That could be it. At the same time I did discourage a much milder mischaracterization directed directed at him, it wasn’t difficult.
  #700  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:09 PM
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Is that like a duck call?
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