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  #101  
Old 11-13-2014, 12:01 PM
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Has anyone listened to the Buzzfeed parodies?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchiri...lously-on-poin
  #102  
Old 11-13-2014, 01:21 PM
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Jay came off a lot better in this episode than I expected. I was in high school back when all this happened, and I was friends with a couple of guys a lot like Jay was described. It was kind of weird listening to the descriptions, I kind of felt like I knew him.

I was pretty convinced Adnan was guilty before, more so now.
  #103  
Old 11-13-2014, 01:51 PM
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Has anyone listened to the Buzzfeed parodies?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/kristinchiri...lously-on-poin
Yeah, pretty funny. I like the Mailchimp ads.
  #104  
Old 11-13-2014, 02:55 PM
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Jay came off a lot better in this episode than I expected. I was in high school back when all this happened, and I was friends with a couple of guys a lot like Jay was described. It was kind of weird listening to the descriptions, I kind of felt like I knew him.

I was pretty convinced Adnan was guilty before, more so now.
Before this episode, I figured that had I been on the jury, I would have voted to convict Adnan. I still feel the same way after this episode.

But...

Either Adnan or Jay is lying. And I keep thinking "shouldn't you think that the guy that everyone describes as a liar is the one who's actually lying?"
  #105  
Old 11-13-2014, 03:31 PM
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Either Adnan or Jay is lying. And I keep thinking "shouldn't you think that the guy that everyone describes as a liar is the one who's actually lying?"
Sure, but the two possibilities are not mutually exclusive. I suspect they were both lying to some extent. The fact is though that you don't really need to completely believe Jay to find Adnan guilty. There are so many strange "coincidences" to make Adnan's involvement likely, and enough circumstantial evidence to implicate Adnan absent Jay. Jay is just the guy who connects the dots in order to craft a narrative for the prosecution.

It's also important to note that we were (until this most recent episode) comparing the charm, charisma, likability and credibility of a 34 year old present day Adnan to those of a 19 year old Jay on tape being cross examined by detectives. The conclusions that can and should be drawn based on their stories is complicated by the above in ways most people haven't acknowledged. We were listening to a GROWN MAN with nothing to lose with 15 years to dwell on this, and comparing his account, demeanor, and polish to that a person barely old enough to be considered an adult.
  #106  
Old 11-13-2014, 10:07 PM
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I have to say that I was surprised that my opinion of Jay changed after this episode. Yes, I still think he was more involved than he is letting on, but I guess what I am talking about his my opinion of his nature. To me, this made him much more likeable. I feel like I knew (and liked) guys like that in high school. I can appreciate his friends saying that yeah, sure, he was a liar (it came across, to me, more like a B.S.er) but he wouldn't lie about murdering someone. Previously, I was not seeing how a jury could see him as credible, but I get it more now.

And I definitely see how Adnan's lawyer's treatment of Jay on the stand would make a jury have sympathy for Jay. So far in this story, I am seeing her as THE WORST, and she didn't even murder anyone.

It cracked me up when the lady who was on the jury was describing Jay as, you know, the guy you call when you need A GUY, and making it sound like a positive thing.

One thing that I didn't quite get is why SK seems unconvinced that Jay could be concerned that Adnan threatened Stephanie. Why would a seemingly tough kid like Jay see dippy stoner Adnan as a threat? Well, if we are to believe Jay's story, he has seen with his own eyes that Adnan killed someone -- at that point, I think it's reasonable to believe he might harm someone else. So that doesn't mystify me at all. (Especially if we believe the friends' statements that Jay acted tougher than he really was.)

I am still of course extremely curious about the inconsistencies in Jay's statements and testimony. Right now I feel like there is a big chunk of the story missing.
  #107  
Old 11-15-2014, 08:41 AM
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I feel like SK was completely self indulgent in this episode when it came to her commentary on Jay. Nothing of any worth was revealed and all she did was do a human interest story on him. No facts. No discovery.

I realize she has to fill the time slot with something and it didn't help her at all that Jay refused a recorded or even detailed interview. But her "feelings"and impressions of Jay, and those of her assistant, 15 years after the fact are completely irrelevant. As were the stories shared by Jay's friends, 15 years down the road. Utterly worthless to the facts of the case and whether or not Adnan or Jay or both is/are the killer(s). And of course you would lie about murder. If there is anything you would ever lie about, it would be about having commited murder.

Now, what the ex-cop detective said was much more insightful, i.e. cops want to build a case and they are not inclined to work very hard to tear down their only material witness if it will lead to something inconclusive. Cops want closure. They want to solutions neatly wrapped up with a bow, if they can get them.
  #108  
Old 11-15-2014, 06:49 PM
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Got myself caught up. I heard about the podcast only last week, so had 7 eps to catch up, which became 8 by this Thursday. I read through this thread while listening (up to where the next ep began, of course).

So, IMO, I dunno who did it. I do know the case against Adnan seems shaky to me - I somewhat felt vindicated by the Innocence Project team feeling the way they did after all the discussion here about "I can't understand why anyone would think Adnan didn't do it" (paraphrased, obviously). There is definitely stuff that looks bad for Adnan (the cell phone pinging at the park, the call to his friend that Jay didn't know when Adnan was supposed to be at track practice), but I don't think it goes to beyond a reasonable doubt. (granted it has been numerous years since I took Criminal Law)

Oh, and I'll echo the there are bound to be lapses in memories from stoners - esp if they were smoking up a lot on that day itself. So Adnan or Jay not remembering things or getting things wrong doesn't seem super 'off' to me.

Excited I can take part in the conversation now (and not like a month after the show when is usually when I catch up to things ).
  #109  
Old 11-15-2014, 09:03 PM
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But her "feelings"and impressions of Jay, and those of her assistant, 15 years after the fact are completely irrelevant. As were the stories shared by Jay's friends, 15 years down the road.
I disagree. It's an important counterbalance to what we have heard from Adnan, 15 years down the road. It's hard to fairly compare the two of them when our impression of Adnan is based on present day conversations while our impression of Jay is based on taped interrogations/confessions 15 years ago. I think a lot of what makes people believe Adnan is innocent is his supposedly charming calm present day demeanor relative to Jay's shifty inconsistency 15 years ago. Up until now, we heard a teenager without the ability to respond arguing against a grown man with 15 years of hindsight and contemplation. Giving Jay the chance to answer some of those critiques, and a chance for SK to judge his demeanor, was important.

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Now, what the ex-cop detective said was much more insightful, i.e. cops want to build a case and they are not inclined to work very hard to tear down their only material witness if it will lead to something inconclusive. Cops want closure. They want to solutions neatly wrapped up with a bow, if they can get them.
I think you are overstating their motivations a bit, and understanding the reality of the situation. Yes, there is something a bot unseemly about the concept of "bad evidence", but it is largely a reflection of how hard it is to piece together past events or crimes involving uncooperative people absent really compelling direct evidence.

When you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, the weight of the evidence is primarily based on the narrative you can uncover or entirely create to explain it's relevance. Not testing or not probing too deeply into things that don't fit a reasonable narrative is less likely to impede justice in the long run if your narrative is sound.

Similarly, witness testimony is also problematic because memory is malleable. Yes, they could have pressed Jay and others on their inconsistencies, but if even honest people tell conflicting stories. The heart of the matter is presenting a cogent and cohesive story to a jury that implicates the guilty party. That more than anything is what ensures justice.

Last edited by brickbacon; 11-15-2014 at 09:06 PM.
  #110  
Old 11-16-2014, 07:51 AM
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I disagree. It's an important counterbalance to what we have heard from Adnan, 15 years down the road. It's hard to fairly compare the two of them when our impression of Adnan is based on present day conversations while our impression of Jay is based on taped interrogations/confessions 15 years ago. I think a lot of what makes people believe Adnan is innocent is his supposedly charming calm present day demeanor relative to Jay's shifty inconsistency 15 years ago. Up until now, we heard a teenager without the ability to respond arguing against a grown man with 15 years of hindsight and contemplation. Giving Jay the chance to answer some of those critiques, and a chance for SK to judge his demeanor, was important.
I'm not charmed or impressed by Adnan's current day arguments any more than I am by Jay's. He's had plenty of time (nothing but time!) to iron out the wrinkles in his story and rationalize away whatever inconsistencies present themselves in his account of events. I honestly don't know which of the two is more/less guilty of the murder, if at all.



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I think you are overstating their motivations a bit, and understanding the reality of the situation. Yes, there is something a bot unseemly about the concept of "bad evidence", but it is largely a reflection of how hard it is to piece together past events or crimes involving uncooperative people absent really compelling direct evidence.

When you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, the weight of the evidence is primarily based on the narrative you can uncover or entirely create to explain it's relevance. Not testing or not probing too deeply into things that don't fit a reasonable narrative is less likely to impede justice in the long run if your narrative is sound.

Similarly, witness testimony is also problematic because memory is malleable. Yes, they could have pressed Jay and others on their inconsistencies, but if even honest people tell conflicting stories. The heart of the matter is presenting a cogent and cohesive story to a jury that implicates the guilty party. That more than anything is what ensures justice.
Here's the thing that bothers me though, and you expressed it well - a good cohesive story is more important than the contradicting evidence. Both the legal team from the Innocence Project and the ex-cop/private investigator agree that the evidence to convict Adnan is weak. Additionally, the cops eagerly made a deal with Jay because he handed Adnan to them on a silver platter. They failed to DNA test some of the evidence and they failed to search Jay's apartment to try to trace the fibers found on the scene. And unless I've missed a key part of the story, the prosecution did not successfully link Adnan to the phone for those critical 4 hours after school. Yes, the phone travelled but how do we know Adnan travelled along with it?
  #111  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:28 AM
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Re: the call to Adnans friend

Since no-one has any explanation for it (Adnan has no explanation, because he wouldn't, would he? Jay doesn't give any real account of it, and the police claim it represents a completely different call that provably happened weeks later at the video store). So...doesn't that actually obligate us to assume it's irrelevant? Like, it could be a butt-dial, and a collegue of the friend picked it up and left it because they thought it was a scam? It could just be a random event like that.

Last edited by Septima; 11-16-2014 at 09:29 AM.
  #112  
Old 11-16-2014, 10:31 AM
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I'm not charmed or impressed by Adnan's current day arguments any more than I am by Jay's.
But do you think the majority of listeners feel the same way?

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Here's the thing that bothers me though, and you expressed it well - a good cohesive story is more important than the contradicting evidence.
Yes, but the important point is that contradicting evidence often leads you AWAY from the truth.

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Both the legal team from the Innocence Project and the ex-cop/private investigator agree that the evidence to convict Adnan is weak.
I don't think the detective said the case was weak. IIRC, he was unsure as to whether the narrative was sound. The Innocence Project opinion is fairly important, but remember we are talking largely about law students who primarily see a subset of cases. Some of this has to be treated in the same vein as the barber who recommends a haircut. Not to minimize their opinion too much, but there are plenty of people on the other side.

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Additionally, the cops eagerly made a deal with Jay because he handed Adnan to them on a silver platter. They failed to DNA test some of the evidence and they failed to search Jay's apartment to try to trace the fibers found on the scene.
What would that really tell us though? All of that is circumstantial evidence, and we have no circumstance that puts Hae with Jay at the crucial time that make any sense. We also have no known motive for Jay to kill Hae, and no way for Jay to move the car, etc. without help. Hae was killed in a narrow time frame in a very personal way. We know these two things if nothing else. It doesn't make much sense for a stranger or for Jay to commit the crime in that way during that time.


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And unless I've missed a key part of the story, the prosecution did not successfully link Adnan to the phone for those critical 4 hours after school. Yes, the phone travelled but how do we know Adnan travelled along with it?
The prosecution didn't argue Adnan was with the phone the entire time. He was killing Hae.

Last edited by brickbacon; 11-16-2014 at 10:32 AM.
  #113  
Old 11-16-2014, 11:02 AM
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Re: the call to Adnans friend

Since no-one has any explanation for it (Adnan has no explanation, because he wouldn't, would he? Jay doesn't give any real account of it, and the police claim it represents a completely different call that provably happened weeks later at the video store). So...doesn't that actually obligate us to assume it's irrelevant? Like, it could be a butt-dial, and a collegue of the friend picked it up and left it because they thought it was a scam? It could just be a random event like that.
Maybe, maybe not. Nisha herself maybe misremembering the details of the call doesn't mean she didn't speak to one or both of them. Butt dials usually don't last 2+ minutes and neither do conversations with strangers.
  #114  
Old 11-16-2014, 11:40 AM
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I think you are overstating their motivations a bit, and understanding the reality of the situation. Yes, there is something a bot unseemly about the concept of "bad evidence", but it is largely a reflection of how hard it is to piece together past events or crimes involving uncooperative people absent really compelling direct evidence.

When you are dealing with circumstantial evidence, the weight of the evidence is primarily based on the narrative you can uncover or entirely create to explain it's relevance. Not testing or not probing too deeply into things that don't fit a reasonable narrative is less likely to impede justice in the long run if your narrative is sound.

Similarly, witness testimony is also problematic because memory is malleable. Yes, they could have pressed Jay and others on their inconsistencies, but if even honest people tell conflicting stories. The heart of the matter is presenting a cogent and cohesive story to a jury that implicates the guilty party. That more than anything is what ensures justice.
But this is exactly why the Baltimore police are no longer allowed to keep the recording turned off until the interviewee "gets his story straight." Human memories are very malleable, and it is routine for authorities in these situations to intentionally or not start suggesting memories to witnesses.

One of the most prominent examples is from the McMartin preschool "satanic ritual abuse" case from the 1980s. It is believed that the testimony from the preschool children was entirely constructed through non-recorded interviews.
  #115  
Old 11-16-2014, 11:41 AM
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But she doesn't remember that call either - she remembers a completely different call, that couldn't have happened for weeks, when Jay got a job at a video store.

Given that no-one has any explanation for it, isn't more likely that it's just a random event?

I mean, I've butt-dialed people who butt-anwered the call, leaving me with a ghost-conversation in my call-log. It's not common, but certainly not unheard-of.
  #116  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:43 PM
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I was really surprised at this thread. I thought he was innocent from the first episode, and everything subsequent has just made me more certain.
  #117  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:58 PM
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But do you think the majority of listeners feel the same way?
The majority seem to believe Adnan is guilty. I'm not convinced by the majority opinion.



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Yes, but the important point is that contradicting evidence often leads you AWAY from the truth.
Is that some sort of codified rule of jurisprudence? I'm all for "best practices" to a certain point. But if evidence suggest I follow a road less traveled to see where it leads, why not explore it. If only to then be able to document that it lead nowhere.



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I don't think the detective said the case was weak. IIRC, he was unsure as to whether the narrative was sound. The Innocence Project opinion is fairly important, but remember we are talking largely about law students who primarily see a subset of cases. Some of this has to be treated in the same vein as the barber who recommends a haircut. Not to minimize their opinion too much, but there are plenty of people on the other side.
Which is no different than the police pursuing their ends for a "good narrative". I know everyone is driven by their own motives or training to some degree. I think this story, if nothing else, exposes that unfortunate reality quite clearly.



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What would that really tell us though? All of that is circumstantial evidence, and we have no circumstance that puts Hae with Jay at the crucial time that make any sense. We also have no known motive for Jay to kill Hae, and no way for Jay to move the car, etc. without help. Hae was killed in a narrow time frame in a very personal way. We know these two things if nothing else. It doesn't make much sense for a stranger or for Jay to commit the crime in that way during that time.
I think Jay has motive. Stephanie was the one indisputable great thing in Jay's life, according to his friend's accounts. We know that Hae threatened to expose to Stephanie that Jay was cheating on her. That might lead Jay to anger and to wanting to shut her up in a very personal way. Isn't manual strangulation the ultimate shut-the-fuck-up?



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The prosecution didn't argue Adnan was with the phone the entire time. He was killing Hae.
Or Jay was. While Adnan was off by himself smoking pot before track pratice. The moving of the car and burrying of the body could have been done later with Adnan's help or possibly Jen's.
  #118  
Old 11-16-2014, 01:23 PM
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But she doesn't remember that call either - she remembers a completely different call, that couldn't have happened for weeks, when Jay got a job at a video store.

Given that no-one has any explanation for it, isn't more likely that it's just a random event?

I mean, I've butt-dialed people who butt-anwered the call, leaving me with a ghost-conversation in my call-log. It's not common, but certainly not unheard-of.
I believe it wasn't a cell phone, because they said that there wasn't an answering machine connected to the phone, which isn't the way you'd generally refer to a voicemail system.
  #119  
Old 11-16-2014, 01:53 PM
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Ah, sorry. Adnan had a cell-phone. Nisha didn't. But still, that makes my first theory more likely: someone else picked up the phone and decided to screw with whoever butt-dialed them by leaving the phone off the hook, costing the annoying butt-dialer money. I've done that too.
  #120  
Old 11-16-2014, 04:17 PM
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I think that most probably Adnan is innocent. Partly because of the numerous inconsistencies in Jay's accounts, but mostly because I don't find the guilty Adnan character plausible.

I think it's unlikely that a non violent person suddenly commits such a violent murder, I don't think there was a good motive for him, and most importantly I don't think that people who commit this type of crimes are rational and clever enough to keep talking for 30+ hours about the subject without making any mistakes.

Let's take where he talks about how the murder wouldn't be possible in the timeframe permitted. He sounds really confident about this, and surprised / disappointed when it turns out that it actually was. And it was him who brought up this specific point. But if he committed the murder, he would of course have known that it was possible.

So assuming he is committed the murder in that way, he is playing some complex, intelligent game bringing up things he knows won't actually help his case.

I think that this sort of calculating, intelligent psychopath murderer mostly exist in fiction and we shouldn't expect to encounter one in real life. Also, if he really is this insightful, I would think he could think of a smarter way to murder the girl than in broad daylight at a Best Buy.

But the problem is about figuring out an alternative story that is less implausible. Mainly the problem is in both explaining the murder itself, and that Jay would wrongfully accuse Adnan. In the podcast she briefly mentions thinking about alternative scenarios, and I hope she goes into this in a future episode.

Here are some scenarios I can conjure, but frankly they all seem unlikely to me:


1. Jay murdered Hae. Motive unknown. Perhaps a heated argument over some teenage love stuff, perhaps he was paid to. He starts by trying to claim innocence, but then shifts to trying to frame Anand, with the assistance of the investigators.

Problems: Motive for Jay. Plus this also requires Jay to be a highly skilled sociopath.


2. Some unrelated person murdered Hae. The police like Adnan as a suspect, perhaps with Jay as accomplice. During the unrecorded hours with Jay, they pressure him into testifying against Adnan, in return of letting some drug charges go and/or letting him get off the hook for the murder. Perhaps Jay at one point decided that it was easier for him to lie about it, and once he did he had to stick to it. The murderer could be Roy Sharonnie Davis, who killed another girl under similar circumstances, or Mr. S, which would explain how he found the body.

Problems: How did Jay know where the car was, and details about where the body was buried.


3. Some other person murdered Hae either together with Jay, or by assistance from Jay later. Perhaps many of the same things that Jay claimed happened actually happened (including the trip to the far away park that was later dropped from the story), just with this person instead of Adnan. Jay accuses Adnan for the same reasons described in (2).

Problems: Who is the murderer then? Did they plan to frame Adnan from the beginning? Otherwise the coincidences seem significant.
  #121  
Old 11-16-2014, 09:17 PM
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But this is exactly why the Baltimore police are no longer allowed to keep the recording turned off until the interviewee "gets his story straight." Human memories are very malleable, and it is routine for authorities in these situations to intentionally or not start suggesting memories to witnesses.
Don't you think though that if that were their aim here, they would have reconciled Jay's story off the record?

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The majority seem to believe Adnan is guilty. I'm not convinced by the majority opinion.
What are you basing this on?

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Is that some sort of codified rule of jurisprudence? I'm all for "best practices" to a certain point. But if evidence suggest I follow a road less traveled to see where it leads, why not explore it. If only to then be able to document that it lead nowhere.
Because those loose ends often invite more baseless speculation that can be interpreted as reasonable doubt. Just like we have in this case. There are people speculating any tangentially related person is responsible based on no evidence.

Just think about almost any exhaustively investigated case, and you have conspiracy theories abound. Whether it's Obama's birth certificate, The JFK assassination, 9/11, the moon landing, etc. The 9/11 truthers often insist the buildings were blown up despite us having video evidence of planes hitting the buildings. More evidence often doesn't give more clarity. Chasing down every lead almost always leads to dead ends which some will claim are not really dead ends. Yes, there needs to be some due diligence, but more evidence is not always better.

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Which is no different than the police pursuing their ends for a "good narrative". I know everyone is driven by their own motives or training to some degree. I think this story, if nothing else, exposes that unfortunate reality quite clearly.
Yes, but the police are "fact checked" by the DA, and ultimately by a jury. The innocence project doesn't have to answer for their mistakes.

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I think Jay has motive. Stephanie was the one indisputable great thing in Jay's life, according to his friend's accounts. We know that Hae threatened to expose to Stephanie that Jay was cheating on her.
We don't KNOW that. There is no evidence that Jay cheated on Stephanie or that Hae knew and threatened to expose him. That is baseless speculation. Even if that were true, Hae would probably tell Stephanie directly rather than confronting Jay. Additionally, Hae would have no reason to meet Jay after school.

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Or Jay was. While Adnan was off by himself smoking pot before track pratice. The moving of the car and burrying of the body could have been done later with Adnan's help or possibly Jen's.
So you think Adnan helped move the car, but wouldn't rat Jay out? What sense does that make? Or you presume, WITH ZERO EVIDENCE, that Jenn is lying about a murder now too?
  #122  
Old 11-17-2014, 06:56 AM
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Don't you think though that if that were their aim here, they would have reconciled Jay's story off the record?





the wording of your question is confusing, but if you are asking what I think you're asking, then, yes, I believe that one of the specific purposes of an unrecorded "pre-interview" is to make sure that the interviewee says what the cops want him to say, including any memories they want to plant or manipulate, or help him construct an entirely false story.

However, the early recorded Jay interviews when his story was changing were at a time when Adnan was not a target of their investigation, and, indeed, Jay had made himself a suspect.

They just hadn't gotten to the point of "setting up" their best interview yet.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 11-17-2014 at 06:59 AM.
  #123  
Old 11-17-2014, 09:40 AM
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Let's take where he talks about how the murder wouldn't be possible in the timeframe permitted. He sounds really confident about this, and surprised / disappointed when it turns out that it actually was. And it was him who brought up this specific point. But if he committed the murder, he would of course have known that it was possible.
He may well be guilty of the murder and still have been genuinely surprised by this. At this point, if anything has been made clear to us, it is that the timeline has some problems. I still think Adnan most likely did it, but I also don't believe that he actually did it at Best Buy in those 21 minutes. So, yeah, he may actually have believed it to have been impossible to pull off in the way Jay and the prosecution were saying, because he knows how the murder actually went down. I don't think we've heard anything close to the real story of the details of the day.

Interestingly, the latest episode gave us yet another early version of Jay's narrative, where the murder was supposed to have happened in the library parking lot, not at Best Buy. I'm not sure if that's a realistic scenario, as I imagine that there would have been a lot of people around the library and the school during that time. In some ways it would make more sense, though. For one thing, the meeting with Asia would no longer be an alibi.

Last edited by Don't Panic; 11-17-2014 at 09:43 AM.
  #124  
Old 11-17-2014, 10:09 AM
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He may well be guilty of the murder and still have been genuinely surprised by this. At this point, if anything has been made clear to us, it is that the timeline has some problems. I still think Adnan most likely did it, but I also don't believe that he actually did it at Best Buy in those 21 minutes. So, yeah, he may actually have believed it to have been impossible to pull off in the way Jay and the prosecution were saying, because he knows how the murder actually went down. I don't think we've heard anything close to the real story of the details of the day.
That's true. But that still makes it very weak to me, a timeline that's then wrong, no real motive, unlikely culprit etc etc.

But as I said, I don't have any other good explanation either.
  #125  
Old 11-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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He may well be guilty of the murder and still have been genuinely surprised by this. At this point, if anything has been made clear to us, it is that the timeline has some problems. I still think Adnan most likely did it, but I also don't believe that he actually did it at Best Buy in those 21 minutes. So, yeah, he may actually have believed it to have been impossible to pull off in the way Jay and the prosecution were saying, because he knows how the murder actually went down. I don't think we've heard anything close to the real story of the details of the day.

Interestingly, the latest episode gave us yet another early version of Jay's narrative, where the murder was supposed to have happened in the library parking lot, not at Best Buy. I'm not sure if that's a realistic scenario, as I imagine that there would have been a lot of people around the library and the school during that time. In some ways it would make more sense, though. For one thing, the meeting with Asia would no longer be an alibi.
Indeed. Though then one wonders why the pushing of the "Best Buy" murder narrative? Obviously they were around the Best Buy, as that is what Adnan's cell phone was pinging off of (and of course, when Jay talks about their long and winding drive to the State Park, Adnan's cell phone was still pinging off the cell phone tower close to Best Buy... part of the big inconsistency in Jay's story). If the murder is done at the library, even with everyone there, or even if not there, Jay sees it at the place he was at... why go to Best Buy? I mean it isn't like they sell shovels there.
  #126  
Old 11-17-2014, 02:43 PM
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Jay's motive


I think many people are overlooking how close Adnan was to Stephanie - Jay's girlfriend. To me this is motive, there is also motive with the fact that Hae might have been going to tell Stephanie about Jay's cheating.

What really seems nuts to me is that on the testimony of one person who changed his story and NO physical evidence, a person is convicted. That is scary.
  #127  
Old 11-17-2014, 07:30 PM
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If the murder is done at the library, even with everyone there, or even if not there, Jay sees it at the place he was at... why go to Best Buy? I mean it isn't like they sell shovels there.
I don't know. Maybe they don't need a particular reason to go there. It could be that they were just were driving around, probably panicked since one or both of them just killed a girl, and happened to end up at Best Buy. Or they went there to move the body.

Possible scenario: Adnan and Jay both kill Hae together, at the library. It's easier for two guys to hold down and strangle someone, quickly and quietly, than for one guy alone. Somehow they're not noticed. Adnan, panicked but hiding it, walks around, bumps into Asia. Jay waits in the car. They decide that they need to move the body, which is in the back seat and probably covered by a jacket or similar, to the trunk. They're worried about being seen, so they drive to Best Buy, which is more secluded. Jay is in Adnan's car, Adnad is in Hae's car with her body in it. They move the body in the secluded part of the parking lot. Now there's no need to fit in the "come get me" call on the timeline, and the Asia alibi is no longer an alibi. It also explains why Jay is concerned about cameras at Best Buy at first, since he was there with Adnan moving the body. He still doesn't want to mention the library parking lot, obviously, since it's the actual murder scene and he doesn't want anyone who might have seen him there to have a light bulb moment. So he sticks with Best Buy in his story, to keep himself out of it as much as possible.

I guess you could come up with a slightly modified version that doesn't include Jay at the scene of the murder, if you want. I'm still fine with Adnan doing it by himself.

Someone on Reddit speculated that the reason why Adnan's lawyer didn't want him to testify, and why she didn't bring up the Asia letters, is that Adnan had actually confessed to her that the he was guilty, and that it happened at the library. She didn't put him on the stand because she didn't want to ask him to lie, and she didn't bring up Asia, because her letters place him at the actual murder scene. I don't know how much sense that makes, though.

Problem with the murder happening at the library: I've seen those Woodlawn guided tour videos on YouTube. That library parking lot so totally does not look like a place where you could just commit a murder and not being seen by about a thousand witnesses, especially right after school lets out. So this scenario is probably just complete bollocks.
  #128  
Old 11-18-2014, 01:31 PM
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Interestingly, the latest episode gave us yet another early version of Jay's narrative, where the murder was supposed to have happened in the library parking lot, not at Best Buy. I'm not sure if that's a realistic scenario, as I imagine that there would have been a lot of people around the library and the school during that time. In some ways it would make more sense, though. For one thing, the meeting with Asia would no longer be an alibi.
If this is true, the one possible scenario is that Adnan did it, at the library, and he told his lawyer the truth about it.

That would explain both why the lawyer didn't contact Asia (because her "alibi" actually put him at the scene of the crime) and why Adnan didn't take the stand in his defense (because an ethical lawyer would not put her client on the stand if she believed he was going to lie).

A perfect lawyer would probably have gone back to Asia after the police constructed a narrative where the murder took place at Best Buy, but it's a totally human mistake to mentally file her testimony as "not helpful" because it puts her client at the site of the murder and then not revisit that conclusion even when it becomes helpful to disprove the incorrect narrative from the police.
  #129  
Old 11-18-2014, 01:57 PM
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I remember Sarah Koenig's comment from the very first episode, when she's talking about the Asia alibi: "Library equals innocent. It's so maddeningly simple." Um, yeah, maybe not so much.

Sometimes when listening to the podcast, I've though that Koenig has come across as weirdly naive and trusting of Adnan. However, now I'm thinking that it could all be an act, a persona she puts on. Because, of course, there are two Sarah Koenigs in that clip: There's the reporter with a crush on Adnan who thinks it's all "maddeningly simple", and then there's the creator of the podcast who edits all this together, who has been working on the story for months, and who knows damned well that it's anything but.
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Old 11-18-2014, 02:08 PM
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They decide that they need to move the body, which is in the back seat and probably covered by a jacket or similar, to the trunk. They're worried about being seen, so they drive to Best Buy, which is more secluded. Jay is in Adnan's car, Adnad is in Hae's car with her body in it.
Best Buy may be MORE secluded that the library, but it definitely isn't a very secluded place in general, even in the corner parking lot area. There are probably a million more places that are more secluded. Heck, the state park drive makes more sense if they wanted to transfer the body to the trunk.
  #131  
Old 11-18-2014, 02:26 PM
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Of course, the library as murder scene version could just be a red herring. By my count, there are more red herrings on this podcast so far than at a herring sale at the Crab Crib.
  #132  
Old 11-18-2014, 11:19 PM
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the wording of your question is confusing, but if you are asking what I think you're asking, then, yes, I believe that one of the specific purposes of an unrecorded "pre-interview" is to make sure that the interviewee says what the cops want him to say, including any memories they want to plant or manipulate, or help him construct an entirely false story.
My question was, if the cops intended to massage Jay's story, why would they get him on the record telling conflicting stories? Even if they slowly reached that point, why would they document his earlier different stories?

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However, the early recorded Jay interviews when his story was changing were at a time when Adnan was not a target of their investigation, and, indeed, Jay had made himself a suspect.
This is incorrect. Adnan was always the target as far as the police questioning Jay. The only reason they contacted him and Jenn was because they were called from Adnan's phone.

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They just hadn't gotten to the point of "setting up" their best interview yet.
But why keep all the "rough drafts" if they knowingly are setting up a better interview.

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I think many people are overlooking how close Adnan was to Stephanie - Jay's girlfriend. To me this is motive, there is also motive with the fact that Hae might have been going to tell Stephanie about Jay's cheating.
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE JAY WAS CHEATING ON STEPHANIE. And even if he was there is not evidence Hae knew, that she was gonna tell Stephanie, or that Jay knew she was gonna tell on him.

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What really seems nuts to me is that on the testimony of one person who changed his story and NO physical evidence, a person is convicted. That is scary.
How so? How many rape, assault, and robbery cases are based on the victim's word? If I walked up to you on the street and punched you in the face, would you think your own testimony was insufficient to convict me?
  #133  
Old 11-19-2014, 04:49 AM
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There's another thing I've been thinking about: I may have been listening to the podcast so many times that I'm starting to see patterns in clouds, but there's something about the things Adnan says. The specificity of what he's denying. I don't think I've heard him say, plain and simple, "I didn't kill her". He says "I had no reason to kill her." He says Jay's story isn't true. He says that it would be impossible to commit the crime in the way the prosecution claims. "Look at what they're saying. They're saying it's not a crime of passion. Not that me and Hae got in a fight, and boom, this happened. They're saying I plotted and planned." "You don't know me, Koenig. I want to shoot myself when I hear someone say that 'you're a nice guy'. I'd rather have someone say, Adnan, you're a crazy bastard, and you should stay in there for the rest of your life, but I looked at your case, and something's not right. Something's a bit off."

It's almost like someone trying to get off on a technicality. Like he's saying: "I'm not guilty of the murder I was convicted of", rather than "I'm not guilty of murder". More like "it didn't happen like that", instead of "it didn't happen at all".

It's almost like truth is leaking out in places. I don't know, though. I'm probably just imagining things.
  #134  
Old 11-19-2014, 06:40 AM
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The specificity of what he's denying. I don't think I've heard him say, plain and simple, "I didn't kill her". He says "I had no reason to kill her."
I agree, but the thing about this point is that it is small excerpts from a very extended conversation, where the journalist is picking what she plays. It's highly plausible that he has said it many times, but she hasn't included those parts.

Also there was one time where he talked about that he wished that people could look inside his head somehow to see that he was innocent.

Have you tried playing werewolf or The Resistance, or a game like that? I think those games are were similar in nature to what's going on here. And one thing that in my experience is that in those games you can't judge people's werewolf-ness by their repeatedly stating that they are villagers. In my experience, sometimes werewolves do this, sometimes they don't, and sometimes villagers do that, sometimes they don't. It's just not a good tell in that game. (Of course the stakes in the serial podcast are slightly higher. )
  #135  
Old 11-19-2014, 09:25 AM
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My question was, if the cops intended to massage Jay's story, why would they get him on the record telling conflicting stories? Even if they slowly reached that point, why would they document his earlier different stories?

This is incorrect. Adnan was always the target as far as the police questioning Jay. The only reason they contacted him and Jenn was because they were called from Adnan's phone.

But why keep all the "rough drafts" if they knowingly are setting up a better interview.
Early witness interviews aren't necessarily the same sort of animal as the later interviews that are used to construct final evidence. They're not necessarily treated like "rough drafts."

And just because misbehavior isn't accomplished with perfect precision doesn't mean that it isn't misbehavior.

There are things such as chains of evidence. It's not always possible to make evidence disappear easily after it has been created, especially if someone else already knows about it.

And it is always possible that the cops have enough experience to know that a few faltering recordings aren't necessarily enough to sink the final set-up.

None of this has anything to do with whether that's actually what happened in this case. It's just clear to me that the unrecorded interviews were unrecorded because the cops were helping Jay get his final story straight. Whether that final story was falsely constructed is a different issue, but the suspicion that this missing time creates is a reason that we shouldn't allow it.
  #136  
Old 11-19-2014, 11:02 AM
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One tiny detail question I would really like to know the answer to is about Nisha's phone. We've heard that her phone (land line) didn't have an answering machine or voice mail, but did it have call waiting? If someone in her house picked up call waiting, and it was a butt dial, they would have flipped back to the other call and the open call could have gone on for ... I don't know, a while? I remember it was possible to get stuck on call waiting for a considerable time.

This whole story has been an exercise in remembering back to the early cell phone era, too. NOW my cell phone has a smart feature that will disconnect after some amount of time of not detecting any voices on the call, but I'm pretty sure my cell phone in 1999 wouldn't have done that.
  #137  
Old 11-19-2014, 11:56 AM
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I was talking about this yesterday with a coworker (who I hooked on Serial), and he brought up again the fact that Adnan didn't take the stand. While we were discussing that, I thought, "Wouldn't Adnan have been interviewed by the police at some point, the same way Jay was? Where are those tapes?"

It's possible that he was arrested, and exercised his right to remain silent, but I feel like there should be something from him from 15 years ago.
  #138  
Old 11-19-2014, 12:54 PM
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I don't think I've heard him say, plain and simple, "I didn't kill her". He says "I had no reason to kill her." He says Jay's story isn't true. He says that it would be impossible to commit the crime in the way the prosecution claims.
I think you are imagining those things, or (more likely) being subtly misled by the producers of Serial, who of course want to emphasize mystery and doubt because that makes their story compelling. The quotes you've mentioned are all in response to specific lines of inquiry in the episode. He says "I had no reason to kill her" when the podcast is talking about motive. He says "it couldn't be done in the time provided" in the episode about the timeline, and so on.

Here's Sarah Koenig in episode 1
Quote:
When he first heard Jay's story of the crime, Adnan didn't say, well, it didn't happen like that, or, I didn't mean for it to happen like that. He said, it didn't happen. None of this is true at all. He says he had nothing to do with Hae's murder, and he doesn't know who did.
Now, that's not a direct quote from Adnan, but it's not at all equivocal.

What would it even mean if Adnan were somehow choosing his words so carefully that he never actually makes a specific claim against being the murderer? He's somehow a vicious cold-blooded killer and sociopath, but he has such an aversion to making direct misstatements that all he'll do is mislead you rather than tell an outright direct lie? That doesn't really make any kind of sense.

Last edited by iamthewalrus(:3=; 11-19-2014 at 12:55 PM.
  #139  
Old 11-19-2014, 01:17 PM
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I was talking about this yesterday with a coworker (who I hooked on Serial), and he brought up again the fact that Adnan didn't take the stand. While we were discussing that, I thought, "Wouldn't Adnan have been interviewed by the police at some point, the same way Jay was? Where are those tapes?"

It's possible that he was arrested, and exercised his right to remain silent, but I feel like there should be something from him from 15 years ago.

They did refer to police reports but he might never have consented to recorded interviews.
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  #140  
Old 11-19-2014, 05:12 PM
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So the latest update on the Asia alibi is that she might have the wrong day. Or at least she's not remembering the weather correctly.

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We looked up the weather for Wednesday, Jan. 13 and Thursday, Jan. 14, 1999. The Baltimore area certainly got hit by a big ice storm beginning in the early morning of Jan. 14. The storm left the area without power for a few days and closed Baltimore County schools on both Jan. 14 and Jan. 15.

[...]

But no snow.

So it seems unlikely Asia would have been stuck at her boyfriend’s house on the evening of Jan. 13, because the ice storm didn’t start until 4:30 on the morning of Jan. 14.

[...]

Considering that in just one week there were three school days cancelled due to weather, it seems possible Asia conflated these two weather events. But if her memory of talking to Adnan in the library is specifically tied to snow, then it’s unlikely that the day she is remembering is Jan. 13.
  #141  
Old 11-19-2014, 05:30 PM
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So the latest update on the Asia alibi is that she might have the wrong day. Or at least she's not remembering the weather correctly.
I'm trying to recall, how long was the gap between the time he was arrested, and the time she wrote the letter to him? It's not clear to me that she didn't build up the weather part of the story long after the fact.
  #142  
Old 11-19-2014, 05:32 PM
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It's not clear to me that she didn't build up the weather part of the story long after the fact.
Yeah, that's probably true. I guess I'm just part fascinated and part banging my head against my keyboard over how no one can get their goddamned stories straight.
  #143  
Old 11-19-2014, 05:37 PM
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Yeah, that's probably true. I guess I'm just part fascinated and part banging my head against my keyboard over how no one can get their goddamned stories straight.
Well…to me the most compelling part of the story, which others have mentioned, is that clearly somebody here is lying, which seems to rule out some third party that we haven't considered. I'm leaning still toward Adnan as the guilty party, but if I ever end up charged with a serious crime, please remind me to testify regardless since the jury will apparently be unable to follow the judge's instructions to ignore my non-appearance.
  #144  
Old 11-19-2014, 07:02 PM
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Yeah, to me, it's become a case of a man convicted on very thin evidence. If he did it or not is almost irrelevant to me now.
  #145  
Old 11-19-2014, 11:21 PM
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I guess I'm just part fascinated and part banging my head against my keyboard over how no one can get their goddamned stories straight.
Wasn't that the point of the first part of Ep1. Its not easy to remember everything from a day that happened in the past. Of course their stories have holes in them.
  #146  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:06 AM
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Wasn't that the point of the first part of Ep1. Its not easy to remember everything from a day that happened in the past. Of course their stories have holes in them.
I remember listening to part of a trial once (OJ, maybe?) where the attorney was questioning a witness as to the timing of some event. They were taking things in order of occurrence and assigning estimated times to everything. "OK, so you left your house and got in your car. That took, what, one minute? And then you drove to the store. How long did that take?" And it frustrated the hell out of me.

Our memories of specific events are fuzzy enough as it is. How well do we estimate and remember time? How often do we look at our watches or clocks and remember the time on them? There is so much slop in the numbers involved that hanging a conclusion on a reconstructed timeline like this seems like wishful thinking at best.

Now, I can see a place for reconstructing some specific set of events to determine plausibility, like Koenig and her assistant did with the timeline here. It doesn't prove anything, but it could potentially disprove something, or at least lend a little weight to a particular story. But drawing conclusions from estimated times to do poorly-remembered things seems like an exercise in futility.
  #147  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:08 AM
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Oh, and if I had been on that jury, I might have shot myself in the head after listening to Adnan's attorney for more than five minutes. Did her voice remind anyone else of Nancy Grace?

I thought choice of attorney alone may have doomed his case.
  #148  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:21 AM
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I think you are imagining those things, or (more likely) being subtly misled by the producers of Serial, who of course want to emphasize mystery and doubt because that makes their story compelling.
Well, now episode 9 gave us Adnan saying explicitly that he had nothing to do with the murder. So, yeah, so much for my pattern in clouds. Throwing that out, then.

Also, probably no pay phone at all at Best Buy? And Hae seen at school after the time when was supposed to be dead?

Seems like the deeper you dig, the less you know. Is there anything at all left of Jay's narrative that makes sense now, except maybe the part about the burial in Leakin Park that evening?

The nuttiest theory I've seen on Reddit today: The location where Hae's car was found, off Edmonson avenue, is right next to Leakin Park. If the cops had really been looking all over for the car, they couldn't have been looking very hard. So maybe they already knew where it was when Jay was brought in, and they fed that information to Jay. Crazy? Maybe. Serious police corruption? Yes. But detective Ritz, at least, was apparently involved with some serious misconduct in a different case, so maybe we shouldn't put that past the Baltimore police.

At this point my gut feeling is not to believe a single word of Jay's story. None of it. At all.

Another thing: Why, oh why, was Adnan not allowed to take the stand? He's charismatic, charming, believable and ready to insist on his innocence. If nothing else, he would have blown the picture of the "Muslim with a dark side" right out the window, since he was so obviously just a regular weed-smoking high school kid.

Furthermore: No signs of violent or sociopathic behavior in prison for the fifteen years that he's been there. So that leaves the hypothetical murder as the only such episode in his entire life, with no tendencies like that before or after.

It just doesn't make sense.
  #149  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:26 AM
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This is not a case where a victim is identifying an assailant. This is a case where a co conspirator has a constantly changing story, so I very much get worried that his testimony is really the only proof used to send someone to jail. Additionally, there are literally hundreds (probably more I don't feel like looking it up) of cases where people are convicted on the basis of a victim ID and those people later turn out innocent as a result of DNA testing. So overall, the case against Adnan is very weak and full of reasonable doubt.
  #150  
Old 11-20-2014, 08:50 AM
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Adnan not taking the stand has never bothered me, personally. Maybe I've watched too many legal dramas, or read too many legal blogs, but I have assumed all along that Adnan's attorney:
  1. Thought that the prosecution's case was flimsy enough that she could pick it apart and create sufficient doubt for an acquittal, and,
  2. Determined that there was significant risk in allowing the prosecution the opportunity to cross-examine him.
By the second point I don't mean to imply that she knew he did it, or that he even was complicit in the murder. Just that she may have decided that his stories were sufficiently vague and conflicting (like everyone else's) that the prosecution might be able to make more from his testimony than they could from his silence.

I suspect we'll get an episode or two in the future focused on Adnan's lawyer; maybe they'll clarify some of this. I seem to remember some hints in earlier episodes that suggest she might not have been the best choice to defend his case.
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