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  #201  
Old 11-24-2014, 05:12 PM
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Oh, and I want to second the posters who've pointed out how annoying Adnan's lawyer sounds. That's just bonkers. They've played about 30 seconds of her talking in court and it makes me want to chuck my iPod into a lake. I can't imagine being on the jury and having to sit through, what, six weeks of that?

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Until a few years ago, there was a payphone in a grocery store parking lot near my mom's house that was similarly situated. That actually makes me think it's more likely that a payphone was there because it's an area where it might not be readily noticed, and that's why people are saying there wasn't a phone there. I have a hard time believing that none of the people involved in this trial discovered the non-existence of the phone, if in fact it didn't exist. Which is not to say that I think the timeline is convincing. I just don't find that a particularly implausible place to have had a payphone.
Maybe. It's mostly subjective, but I just can't picture where you'd put a pay phone there. Maybe by the entrance, but then people would probably remember that. Combine that gut feeling with the facts that we know there was no phone there 2 years later, no one can find evidence it actually existed, and Jay's story seems to be wrong about several other details, and I think it's probably imaginary.

Or maybe it's not, but I think if the phone was fake that's the kind of thing cops/lawyers might discover, instead of would discover. Overall, I feel like saying there's 1 chance in 3 that the phone was actually there.
  #202  
Old 11-24-2014, 09:46 PM
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I used to keep phone books and lots of maps in my trunk before the Internet and GPS.
Why your trunk and not the glovebox? Also, why would Adnan's prints be on the map, and why would the page for Leakin Park, an area he likely knows, be missing.

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And in every case there are records of old interviews that the defense will use to try to impeach the final testimony. Yeah, it happens, but most of the time, a jury will convict anyway, so the cops don't worry too much about that.
Please cite your qualifications to make such a claim?
  #203  
Old 11-25-2014, 01:07 AM
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Why your trunk and not the glovebox?


Glove compartments are small and are needed for many other items. Trunks are large. I don't need every map all the time. Before I set off, if I need a nap, I get it from the trunk.

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Please cite your qualifications to make such a claim?

A degree in law. Admission to the bar in two states. Nearly 20 years of an occupation that requires reading court documents.
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  #204  
Old 11-25-2014, 02:09 PM
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Why wouldn't Adnan's palm print be on the map book? He had been her boyfriend, his prints should be all over her car. How the fuck that this single piece of physical evidence tying him to the crime could be enough is mind-boggling.
  #205  
Old 11-26-2014, 11:08 AM
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A degree in law. Admission to the bar in two states. Nearly 20 years of an occupation that requires reading court documents.
Your admittedly impressive credentials and anecdotal experience do not allow you to make a such an absolute statement with confidence.

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Why wouldn't Adnan's palm print be on the map book? He had been her boyfriend, his prints should be all over her car. How the fuck that this single piece of physical evidence tying him to the crime could be enough is mind-boggling.
The vast majority of murder cases have no physical evidence. IIRC, one study pegged it at 13.5% of cases have physical evidence.
  #206  
Old 11-27-2014, 03:57 PM
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If anyone is experiencing Serial withdrawal this week, you might want to check out an episode of This American Life called Confessions. It's so relevant to Serial that it might as well be part of the show. If features Jim Tranum, the detective from episode 8 of Serial, and the story of how, early in his career, he unwittingly orchestrated a false confession from a suspect.
  #207  
Old 11-28-2014, 09:33 PM
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Why your trunk and not the glovebox? Also, why would Adnan's prints be on the map, and why would the page for Leakin Park, an area he likely knows, be missing.
They said in an early episode that the page that had Leakin Park also included other parts of the area where the kids would have been going in their normal lives. I remember doing that, ripping out the page in the city atlas that I used the most so that it was handy. As an adult, I would keep it in the glovebox, but when I was in high school, it would get thrown in the back seat and then I would have to cram six girls into my Skylark after some school activity so all the crap in the backseat would get scooped up and thrown in the truck. That's one of the things that strikes me about a lot of this circumstantial evidence ... it's all random because that's how teenagers go through life.
  #208  
Old 11-29-2014, 01:00 AM
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Can I back up for a second to talk about something more general?

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20. Adnan, and AFAIK, only Adnan has motive, means, and opportunity to kill Hae.
We've been brought up by television to believe that "means, motive, and opportunity" (MMO) is the be-all and end-all of criminal jurisprudence -- it's probably not a coincidence that brickbacon chose to put it at the end of his list. However, it's actually a pretty useless concept to everyone except prosecutors hoping to snow a jury.

Suppose you want to prove that I bought an apple last week. Did I have the means to buy it? Yes, they're like 2.49/lb, I can afford that. Motive? Sure, I like apples, I suppose there's motive there. Opportunity? Uh-huh, they sell them at the corner store a block away from my apartment. I guess I had the means, motive, and opportunity to buy an apple.

And, hey, suppose further that I can't account for my whereabouts at the time we think the apple was purchased, that someone remembers that I wasn't hungry when I met them that night (suggesting I'd already eaten), that someone else remembers me saying I wanted to get a vegetable peeler one time, that I looked up "grocery" on Google Maps two days before the purchase, that after the purchase someone recalls me saying I liked oranges and not apples (so now my story is shifting like I'm trying to hide something), that I'm not suffering from a Vitamin C deficiency, etc., etc.

Jeez, it's looking pretty bad for me, with all these coincidences piling up. Very damning. The only problem is: I didn't buy any freakin' apples, and none of that stuff does anything to show otherwise. Real evidence would be: security-cam footage of the purchase, a personal check for the correct amount made out on the day in question, a receipt from the store with my fingerprint on it, apple seeds in my garbage, or, yes, an eyewitness. If, instead of stuff like that, we've got means, motive, and opportunity (and the junk from the preceding paragraph), we've actually got nothing. We should try to keep perspective about what certain facts truly demonstrate.


Note: Ok, I don't want to overstate it, MMO can be useful to police at the start of an investigation when they're trying to find suspects to focus on.

Note #2: Most of the above is paraphrased from ideas in Bill James's (very fun) Popular Crime book. (Yes, that Bill James.)

Last edited by VarlosZ; 11-29-2014 at 01:04 AM.
  #209  
Old 11-29-2014, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by VarlosZ View Post
Note: Ok, I don't want to overstate it, MMO can be useful to police at the start of an investigation when they're trying to find suspects to focus on.
Right. IOW, if there isn't a means, motive or opportunity, then you can eliminate someone as a suspect.
  #210  
Old 11-29-2014, 11:42 PM
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They said in an early episode that the page that had Leakin Park also included other parts of the area where the kids would have been going in their normal lives.
True, but how often do you consult a map for an area you live near? I am not alleging there isn't an innocuous explanation, but rather that it is one more thing in a long list of things that in somewhat suspicious.

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I remember doing that, ripping out the page in the city atlas that I used the most so that it was handy.
I don't believe the missing page was recovered though.

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Originally Posted by VarlosZ View Post
We've been brought up by television to believe that "means, motive, and opportunity" (MMO) is the be-all and end-all of criminal jurisprudence -- it's probably not a coincidence that brickbacon chose to put it at the end of his list. However, it's actually a pretty useless concept to everyone except prosecutors hoping to snow a jury.
I disagree. As guizot stated, it is a pretty good means of eliminating people as suspects. Yes, it is not the end all be all, but it is very useful. The issue with your apple example is that SOMEONE actually did buy the apple, so if I know it was only either person A or B, and person B is completely broke (lacks means), hates apples (lacks motive), or is working any time the one places that sells apples in his area is open (lacks opportunity), I can be pretty sure it was it was person A who bought the apple. Yes, it's not going to be completely determinative in a case with multiple suspects who all have those things, but in case where that isn't the case, it's a great shorthand.
  #211  
Old 11-30-2014, 08:47 PM
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True, but how often do you consult a map for an area you live near? I am not alleging there isn't an innocuous explanation, but rather that it is one more thing in a long list of things that in somewhat suspicious.
Remembering back to when I was a new teenage driver, fairly often, especially if it was not my immediate neighborhood, but maybe, for example, the next school district over and we were cruising around trying to find a party. And this predates the time when you could put an address into your phone.

I guess overall, I don't find most of the things in the list suspicious at all. Obviously, some of them, like the fact that Jay knew where the car was, are extremely important. But many of them, they read to me like "and another suspicious thing, the SKY WAS BLUE."
  #212  
Old 11-30-2014, 09:19 PM
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Your admittedly impressive credentials and anecdotal experience do not allow you to make a such an absolute statement with confidence.

Actually, yes, it does. It's absolutely routine. What kind of evidence do you expect? Researchers don't publish studies showing that people put their shoes on after their socks.

And you have not only my word for it, you also have Sarah Koenig's word for it. She said something pretty close to what I did.

Why do you think the Baltimore police are no longer allowed to stop recording in situations like this?
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  #213  
Old 12-01-2014, 03:13 PM
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So this is interesting:

http://popwatch.ew.com/2014/12/01/se...st-adnan-syed/

There appears to be a hearing scheduled for January for post-conviction relief. Apparently, Syed's new attorney is claiming his trial attorney provided ineffective defense when she failed to question an alibi witness, Asia, and that she failed to approached the prosecution with a plea deal and didn't present a plea deal as an option to Syed (if so on the later, WTF?!).
  #214  
Old 12-01-2014, 03:45 PM
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Here's a very detailed discussion of every call and how it fits into the various narratives that makes the case that Jay was the murderer.

Honestly, this story seems much more compelling than the one offered by either the prosecution or by Jay. It fits a timeline that makes sense and pretty much the only piece of cell phone evidence that doesn't fit into the narrative is the early call to Nisha, which also doesn't fit into any other narrative.

Also, I hadn't realized until I read this, but the 2:36 call, the one that the prosecution claims is the "I'm at Best Buy, come pick me up" call, is only 5 seconds long. That's very short even for a call with just that info.

I'm leaning toward "Jay did it, Jenn helped him cover it up" much more after reading the above. It has a lot going for it:

1. Jay and Jenn's timeline/alibi doesn't really work at all because he calls her house several times during the period they both claim they were together at her house.
2. Jay is the one who disposes of the shovels after wiping them clean of prints.
3. Jay is clearly lying about so many things.
  #215  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:06 AM
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Episode 10 is up!




Holy crap! The Prosecutor basically hired the defense attorney for Jay?! WTF?!

And I'm very glad that SK starts off the episode by discussing the potential casual racism that may have existed (under the guise of "culture" rather than "religion"). Maybe it means more to me being a second generation immigrant who is ethnically Pakistani myself. The woman who spoke about it being because he's Muslim sounds like something like my dad would exactly say. And some of the jurors comments just chilled me to the bone. It's an interesting idea to explore this week, after the grand jury decisions of Michael Brown and Eric Garner.

There was interesting discussion about Adnan's lawyer as well. It was interesting to note that she was seemingly starting get really, really sick around the time of the second trial. It was very interesting to know that the lawyer was fantastic in the first trial, and seemingly much more so than the second one when it appeared she was going downhill. Asking for high levels of money in cash is really strange. I also think it was interesting that SK addressed the ineffective assistance of counsel news that came out this week - it really makes it obvious that she is putting this together week to week.
  #216  
Old 12-04-2014, 04:56 PM
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Having to listen to Gutierrez's voice again makes me even more exasperated that Adnan was never put on the stand and allowed to speak on his own behalf.

Imagine a version of this podcast where you never hear Adnan's voice, and instead of Sarah Koenig, you get Christina Gutierrez as narrator. What do you think your impression of Adnan would be?
  #217  
Old 12-04-2014, 05:46 PM
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Episode 4, "Inconsistencies". The police notice from Adnan's cell records that Jen was called six times on the day of the murder. They go to talk to her on January 26th. At first she tells them nothing, then the next day, the 27th, she goes back to them, armed with a lawyer. According to SK, she was afraid that she might be charged, and Jay had told her to tell the cops what she knew and send them his way.

Jen's story to the police is that Jay told her about the murder the very day that it happened, on the 13th, when Adnan dropped off Jay that night. In this version of Jay's story, he had refused to take part in the burial, which he would later admit to, and the murder happened at Best Buy.

Jen then says that she later gave Jay a ride to where he and Adnan dumped the shovels, so that Jay could wipe prints off them and get rid of them. She also knows, from Jay, that Hae was strangled. I don't think that would have been common knowledge at that point.

Note that this is before the police speak to Jay. He is first questioned on the 28th.

So, yeah. Maybe, if I'm drunk enough, I can go along with a theory where some unknown third party did it, Jay is completely uninvolved, and he makes up his story wholesale with info from the police. But with Jen's testimony taken into account, that seems like fairy tale territory. It Jay isn't involved, I can't see why Jen tells them what she does on the 27th and points the cops to Jay.

I also have a hard time imagining a realistic scenario where Jay is involved, but not Adnan. It's both of them or neither, I think.

On the other hand: Jen could still be lying about something, in some way. She was clearly willing to shut up about her knowledge of the crime until the cops showed up, presumably the protect Jay. She's not a model citizen. So, there's still a lot of room for speculation, I guess.
Thanks for this summary. I have to admit I cant really work my unknown person into this anymore. It was strained already. So then I guess they were both involved.
  #218  
Old 12-04-2014, 06:11 PM
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Thanks for this summary. I have to admit I cant really work my unknown person into this anymore. It was strained already. So then I guess they were both involved.
At this point, I no longer think it's a possibility that Jay wasn't involved. However, I think I'm back to entertaining the idea that Jay did it on his own, no Adnan required.

I also think Jen is covering some things up. Something I've seen mentioned a couple of places is that both Jen and Jay and insist that Jay left her place at around 3:40 on the day of the murder, despite the call records showing that calls were placed to her house from the cell phone before that. It looks like Jay might have asked her at some point, "Hey, how about you give me an alibi for the time up until 3:40", not knowing that the phone records would contradict it. And once she had testified to that, they were sort of stuck with that story.
  #219  
Old 12-04-2014, 06:48 PM
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Here's a very detailed discussion of every call and how it fits into the various narratives that makes the case that Jay was the murderer.
That blog is pretty interesting. This post argues pretty convincingly that the detectives may have been helping to direct and shape Jay's story, even if that weren't doing it intentionally.

Actually, scratch the "may have been". We know that Jay is lying and changing his story a lot of the time, and it only makes sense that he's taking his cues from the detectives for what to lie about and when, to give them answers they like. Then the question becomes to what extent the detectives are aware of this, and whether they're even helping him along on purpose.
  #220  
Old 12-04-2014, 06:51 PM
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At this point, I no longer think it's a possibility that Jay wasn't involved. However, I think I'm back to entertaining the idea that Jay did it on his own, no Adnan required.
But that would imply that he had the idea to try and frame Adnan before the cops even talked to him, right? It doesnt seem likely to me that he had this idea, and amazingly managed to pull it off too. Plus Adnan could just as easily have had a solid alibi at that point, or at least have a clear memory of what happened that day.

Last edited by mr. jp; 12-04-2014 at 06:51 PM.
  #221  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:12 PM
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But that would imply that he had the idea to try and frame Adnan before the cops even talked to him, right? It doesnt seem likely to me that he had this idea, and amazingly managed to pull it off too. Plus Adnan could just as easily have had a solid alibi at that point, or at least have a clear memory of what happened that day.
Yeah, it would make Jay just about the luckiest murderer ever, to pull it off. But it's not impossible.

As for framing Adnan, maybe the detectives mentioned something about looking into Adnan when first talking to Jen, and that's where the idea came from. She could have realized that Adnan was the prime suspect.

Although, again, we have the other obvious problems:

Jay's motive? No idea. I still don't buy the "stepping out" stuff, it just seems far fetched and completely unsupported. Besides, this is high school. If Hae knew about Jay cheating on Stephanie, a lot of people would know. Jay would have to shoot up the entire school, not just strangle one person.

How would Jay get to Hae between her leaving school and the time she was supposed to pick up her cousin? No idea. Would she have stopped if Jay flagged her car down? Doesn't seem likely. Maybe, though.
  #222  
Old 12-04-2014, 07:57 PM
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I'm a latecomer to Serial, but am now mostly caught up with the podcast and this thread. (I haven't listened to Episode 10 yet, and so skipped the recent posts about it.)

Listening to Episodes 8 and 9 today, it occurred to me that if this were a fictional mystery then my guess as to whodunnit would be...Stephanie!

Since this is a real life mystery and not fiction I'm not seriously suggesting Stephanie as an alternate suspect. Nothing in the podcast so far indicates that she would have any reason to want to harm Hae. I don't know if she even had any opportunity to kill Hae on January 13. Since it was her birthday, her friends were presumably paying extra attention to her and probably would have noticed if she'd disappeared for a few hours or even just seemed upset. But in a work of fiction I think it would be significant that Stephanie is such a central figure in this story.

Stephanie was dating Jay, a close friend of Adnan's, and it seems like their relationships with her was the main reason why Jay and Adnan became casual friends in the first place. (Stephanie also presumably knew Hae pretty well since they were both in the magnet program, although I don't think they were described as being friends.) The stated reason for Adnan calling Jay the day of Hae's disappearance and then lending him his phone and car was because Adnan wanted to make sure Jay had bought Stephanie a birthday present. It seems far more plausible to me that Jay would be willing to help his girlfriend dispose of a body than his girlfriend's friend, and Jay's shifting story and concern about security cameras at Best Buy makes more sense if he's trying to protect someone. Jay actually said that protecting Stephanie was important to him, although he said he was afraid for her safety because Adnan had threatened her.

Stephanie also seems like one of the few people who both Jay and Adnan would want to protect from the police, so if Adnan had any suspicions about Stephanie being the killer he might have kept them to himself. Heck, since I'm just speculating then perhaps Adnan was even an accessory after the fact like Jay but is still unwilling to point the finger at Stephanie.

It also seems odd to me that Jay didn't try to call Stephanie from Adnan's cellphone on January 13. Not that odd, since Jay was a stoner who hadn't even bought Stephanie a birthday present until prompted by Adnan, but at least slightly odd considering that Jay made a number of calls to friends on Adnan's phone. According to the call log Stephanie did have a cellphone (Adnan had called her twice on it the day before), so Jay could have reached her or at least left a "Happy Birthday!" voicemail at any time. But if Jay and Stephanie were together after school or if any of the unidentified incoming calls were from her, that would explain why he didn't call her.
  #223  
Old 12-04-2014, 09:34 PM
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That was a truly crazy episode. After hearing that, I think if Adnan can't get some sort of retrial based on crappy representation, then I don't think anything will get him out of jail.
  #224  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:03 PM
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Jay's motive? No idea. I still don't buy the "stepping out" stuff, it just seems far fetched and completely unsupported. Besides, this is high school.
Just an aside, I remember thinking how odd it was that Guttierez would think Jay would be familiar with the expression "stepping out." Even when I was in high school, that would have been very outdated, and while I could have figured it out from context, it would hardly have been something I heard often and it might have thrown me if someone said it to me in a stressful situation, like being cross-examined during a murder trial.

That was one of the first things that made me think she was incredibly off-kilter ...and today's episode really made me believe that she wasn't competently defending her clients -- and I feel for her, because I bet it was in large part related to her illness and she might not have been aware. (Still extremely annoying to listen to, though.)
  #225  
Old 12-04-2014, 10:40 PM
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Listening to Episodes 8 and 9 today, it occurred to me that if this were a fictional mystery then my guess as to whodunnit would be...Stephanie!
Yeah, sure, why not? At this stage, pretty much nothing seems too crazy to consider.

It feels a bit sometimes like this case is reality trespassing on fiction. However, it's not your traditional whodunnit, it's a postmodern mystery. The more you investigate, the less anything adds up. Everybody is lying, nobody can remember a damned thing, and every theory you come up with gets blown out the window in the next chapter. After a while, you don't even know who you are or where you live anymore.

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That was one of the first things that made me think she was incredibly off-kilter ...and today's episode really made me believe that she wasn't competently defending her clients -- and I feel for her, because I bet it was in large part related to her illness and she might not have been aware. (Still extremely annoying to listen to, though.)
A while back, I was getting enamored with the idea that Adnan had confessed to Gutierrez, the murder scene was near the library, and this was the reason for not putting Adnan on the stand or following up on the Asia letters.

That just sounds like so much garbage now, especially after this episode. It seems that Gutierrez didn't follow up on the Asia alibi because at this point in her career, there was a lot of things she didn't do for a lot of her clients. She also didn't throw the case on purpose, and there weren't any hidden agendas. It's just that because of her illness, she wasn't exactly firing on all cylinders anymore. She was screwing things up. Many things, in many of her cases. It is sad, and very bad luck for Adnan.

It's funny how Adnan still only has good things to say about her. But then again, he never has a bad word to say about anyone. Not Hae, not Jay, not anyone. It's almost getting a bit unnerving. The guy is almost too nice. I'm not sure if I want to take him home to watch movies and eat ice cream, or take two careful steps back from him, because he's so likeable that's it's just a little bit creepy.

Then again, maybe he just is that nice, and always sees the good in people. I guess if he wasn't convicted of murder, I'd simply want to hug him and squeeze him and name him George.

Last edited by Don't Panic; 12-04-2014 at 10:41 PM.
  #226  
Old 12-04-2014, 11:40 PM
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After Ep 10, I'm starting to believe that Jay is the 'sociopath' and Anand is innocent. I'm looking back to things that sounded damning when I heard them earlier, but now seem consistent with what an honestly innocent man would do and say. AND THAT IS WHAT KOENIG TOLD ME WOULD HAPPEN AND I NEVER SAW IT COMING!
  #227  
Old 12-05-2014, 06:05 AM
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After Ep 10, I'm starting to believe that Jay is the 'sociopath' and Anand is innocent. I'm looking back to things that sounded damning when I heard them earlier, but now seem consistent with what an honestly innocent man would do and say. AND THAT IS WHAT KOENIG TOLD ME WOULD HAPPEN AND I NEVER SAW IT COMING!

Adnan, not Anand.
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  #228  
Old 12-05-2014, 10:38 AM
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Having to listen to Gutierrez's voice again...
Man, it really is grating. Her "sing-songy" speech pattern and the overall timbre of her voice would drive me nuts if I had to listen to it for extended periods.
  #229  
Old 12-05-2014, 11:03 AM
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Man, it really is grating. Her "sing-songy" speech pattern and the overall timbre of her voice would drive me nuts if I had to listen to it for extended periods.
i DON'T know WHY it would BOTHER YOU, WHY SHOULD it BOTHER YOU?????????
  #230  
Old 12-05-2014, 12:34 PM
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i DON'T know WHY it would BOTHER YOU, WHY SHOULD it BOTHER YOU?????????
Yeah, it bothered you, didn't it.
  #231  
Old 12-05-2014, 01:37 PM
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I thought it was interesting that Sarah Koenig said she had reported on the lawyer's troubles many years prior. She just kind of slipped that in there without comment.
  #232  
Old 12-05-2014, 05:48 PM
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I thought it was interesting that Sarah Koenig said she had reported on the lawyer's troubles many years prior. She just kind of slipped that in there without comment.
It has been mentioned before, all the way back in the beginning of episode 1. It's the reason why Koenig is doing this story in the first place. Rabia contacted her because of her earlier reporting on Gutierrez.

Last edited by Don't Panic; 12-05-2014 at 05:50 PM.
  #233  
Old 12-05-2014, 07:58 PM
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I guess I forgot that.
  #234  
Old 12-06-2014, 12:47 AM
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I'm caught up on Episode 10 now, and I was really surprised (and then surprised by my own surprise) when it was mentioned that Hae wasn't necessarily killed on the same day that she disappeared. I'd accepted January 13 as the date of her death because that was the date that people kept talking about, and had kind of assumed without thinking about it carefully that this must have been confirmed by the medical examiner. I wonder how many people on the jury thought the same thing?

Had I given this any consideration I would have realized that it's unlikely an examination of the body could have confirmed this. I don't know much about such things except what I've read in mystery novels, but while there are a number of ways to estimate time and date of death based on forensic evidence I don't think there's anything that would be accurate to the day after a person has already been dead for several weeks.

If Hae wasn't killed on January 13 -- and while we have no evidence that she wasn't, we really only have Jay's word for it that she was -- then that doesn't necessarily mean Adnan is innocent. Unless Adnan has a solid alibi for those days then maybe he abducted Hae after school, hid her away somewhere, and killed her later. That would be a lot more complicated that the prosecution's version of events, but it might have been possible.

But IIRC, the reason the police never considered Hae's boyfriend Don a serious suspect was because (unlike Adnan) he did have a solid alibi for January 13. He was at work. I'm guessing he wasn't at work for the next day or two because of the January 14 ice storm, though. Could Hae have been with Don at that time, either because she voluntarily snuck off to his place on January 13 or because he abducted her? That seems like the sort of thing the police should have checked up on. Perhaps they did, but if so I don't think it's been mentioned on the podcast.

Last edited by Lamia; 12-06-2014 at 12:48 AM.
  #235  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:42 PM
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But IIRC, the reason the police never considered Hae's boyfriend Don a serious suspect was because (unlike Adnan) he did have a solid alibi for January 13. He was at work. I'm guessing he wasn't at work for the next day or two because of the January 14 ice storm, though. Could Hae have been with Don at that time, either because she voluntarily snuck off to his place on January 13 or because he abducted her? That seems like the sort of thing the police should have checked up on. Perhaps they did, but if so I don't think it's been mentioned on the podcast.
I know we're getting close to the end of the series, and time is getting tight, but I still feel like we might get at least a segment of one of the remaining episodes called "Okay, so who is this Don guy?" because it feels like there has been SO little information about him.
  #236  
Old 12-06-2014, 09:54 PM
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I know we're getting close to the end of the series, and time is getting tight, but I still feel like we might get at least a segment of one of the remaining episodes called "Okay, so who is this Don guy?" because it feels like there has been SO little information about him.
That would be nice, although I'm assuming he refused to talk to Serial since we haven't heard from him. There's presumably not much about him in the police record or court documents since he wasn't a suspect or a witness.

Even ignoring the possibility of Don as an alternate killer, it would be nice to hear about Hae from her boyfriend at the time. I understand why her family wouldn't want to get involved with this podcast, but we haven't heard a whole lot about Hae as an individual rather than a murder victim.
  #237  
Old 12-06-2014, 11:42 PM
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i DON'T know WHY it would BOTHER YOU, WHY SHOULD it BOTHER YOU?????????
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Yeah, it bothered you, didn't it.
That was reeeeeally hard to listen to. I can imagine a juror or two or twelve wanting her to just shut up.
  #238  
Old 12-07-2014, 12:25 AM
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Hi, I started this thread back in September, it didn't go anywhere, and I assumed there was no interest. How wrong I was.

I have been following the series, but admittedly not always paying the closest attention, and so feel a bit swamped by all the contradictory accounts, timelines and circumstantial evidence that the series has presented. But that's not surprising, and I'm also not shocked that there's a lot of disagreement among the commenters (no, I didn't read every post) as well as shifting opinions as the story unspools.

Question: Do you think the series has been fair in the way it presents information? Is focusing on one particular aspect each week (Jay's story, the defense at Adnan's trial, piecing together the timeline, etc.) is a good way to proceed or an artificial construct that may make for more interesting listening but doesn't necessarily serve our greater understanding of a case where all facts are not equal and all points of view don't deserve equal time? How would you have done it differently?

(That's actually three questions.)
  #239  
Old 12-07-2014, 02:15 AM
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How would you have done it differently?
I wish there were more jokes. The guys on Reddit have been riding the Mail Chimp ad and the Crab Crib line to death and back. I think it would be healthy for them to have some more variation in their meme diet.
  #240  
Old 12-07-2014, 12:41 PM
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Hi, I started this thread back in September, it didn't go anywhere, and I assumed there was no interest. How wrong I was.
You SAY you started the thread in September, but I have evidence that you actually started it in October!

Sorry, I don't mean that to be snarky, I just thought it was funny given the nature of Serial that you'd make a mistake about the date.

Quote:
Question: Do you think the series has been fair in the way it presents information? Is focusing on one particular aspect each week (Jay's story, the defense at Adnan's trial, piecing together the timeline, etc.) is a good way to proceed or an artificial construct that may make for more interesting listening but doesn't necessarily serve our greater understanding of a case where all facts are not equal and all points of view don't deserve equal time? How would you have done it differently?
Well, any way of presenting the information is going to involve some artificial construct. Chronological order would be difficult since we don't know exactly what happened when -- and there'd be no mystery if we did. Serial could have been modeled more on the way information is presented in court, with the case against Adnan presented in the first half of the series (or first half of each episode, I guess) and the case for him presented in the second half...but that's a totally artificial construct too and would have required or at least encouraged Koenig to ignore evidence that didn't strongly point to Adnan's guilt or innocence.

A more trial-like format wouldn't have left much room to address the problems with Adnan's actual trial, either. I think Serial had been fair about acknowledging that there are two big questions here, and that they might have different answers: whether Adnan is actually guilty of Hae's murder and whether he should have been convicted of this murder. At this point it seems clear that there were some major problems with Gutierrez's defense of Adnan, but that's not proof that he's innocent. It's just evidence that he might have been found "not guilty" if he'd had a better lawyer.
  #241  
Old 12-07-2014, 08:12 PM
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Actually, yes, it does. It's absolutely routine. What kind of evidence do you expect? Researchers don't publish studies showing that people put their shoes on after their socks.
If there is no research on the matter, then you can't makes can't make those claims with any confidence. Your anecdotal evidence holds little sway.

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And you have not only my word for it, you also have Sarah Koenig's word for it. She said something pretty close to what I did.
Why would her anecdotal testimony be more meaningful?

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Why do you think the Baltimore police are no longer allowed to stop recording in situations like this?
Cops in general must record the entire interrogation from beginning to end without stop. The issue was not stopping recordings to smooth testimony, but rather doing it beforehand intentionally or unintentionally.

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That just sounds like so much garbage now, especially after this episode. It seems that Gutierrez didn't follow up on the Asia alibi because at this point in her career, there was a lot of things she didn't do for a lot of her clients.
Maybe, but Asia is a terrible and unreliable witness. Perhaps she didn't think it was worth pursuing.

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Then again, maybe he just is that nice, and always sees the good in people. I guess if he wasn't convicted of murder, I'd simply want to hug him and squeeze him and name him George.
A few people who know his disagree.

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Well, any way of presenting the information is going to involve some artificial construct.
Yes, but I think the main issue is that we hear from Adnan but not his detractors, and that we are judging a present day Adnan against the tapes of kids 15 years ago. It's not really a fair comparison.
  #242  
Old 12-07-2014, 10:40 PM
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If there is no research on the matter, then you can't makes can't make those claims with any confidence.
That's a fundamentally stupid position to take. Of course I can make those claims with confidence, based on what I've seen with my own eyes and what I know from colleagues in my profession.

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Your anecdotal evidence holds little sway.
You might choose to disbelieve me, but that is irrelevant to whether I can have confidence in my own knowledge.

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Why would her anecdotal testimony be more meaningful?
Do you never give any degree of credence to any claim of fact by anyone that is not supported by clinical research?
  #243  
Old 12-08-2014, 08:58 AM
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I still can't believe that Adnan doesn't know more than he is saying.

It just seems impossible to me. I can believe he didn't physically do the 'thing' (as Koenig is fond of say ), but that he is completely clueless about everything? That he doesn't know why Jay would set him up?

We know Jay has details that tie him to the murder 100% (he was involved in some way) and we know he spent a significant amount of time with Adnan on the night she disappeared.

So for Adnan's story to be true, then stoner Jay must be some pretty cold criminal to have set up Adnan in advance like this (and forget even thinking about a reason for that)...


One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can't be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don't take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can't remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead.
  #244  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:00 AM
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I still can't believe that Adnan doesn't know more than he is saying.

It just seems impossible to me. I can believe he didn't physically do the 'thing' (as Koenig is fond of say ), but that he is completely clueless about everything? That he doesn't know why Jay would set him up?

We know Jay has details that tie him to the murder 100% (he was involved in some way) and we know he spent a significant amount of time with Adnan on the night she disappeared.

So for Adnan's story to be true, then stoner Jay must be some pretty cold criminal to have set up Adnan in advance like this (and forget even thinking about a reason for that)...


One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can't be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don't take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can't remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead.
I agree that It feels like Adnan knows more than he's saying, but I think the reason he wouldn't say what that is, is because it would implicate him.

As for Sarah Koenig, she's definitely reached the point where she's a little smitten with the whole story, and has lost the sense of journalistic impartiality, if she ever had it. Then again, This American Life has always walked a line of claiming to be journalism, but a form of journalism that invokes fictional narrative techniques...which to me isn't necessarily journalism to begin with.

Finally, I agree that some of her arguments are a little biased toward Adnan. One example is the false dichotomy that for him to be lying to Sarah, he must be a sociopath. The reality is he might just be a kid who did something really dumb, but who is also a polished liar, especially after that many years in prison. That doesn't require sociopathy, that requires believing your own bullshit.
  #245  
Old 12-08-2014, 10:52 AM
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I don't really get the whole "it's vanishingly unlikely that he's a sociopath" argument, either. Sociopathy/Antisocial Personality Disorder isn't really all that rare, is it? That one woman she interviewed said she just couldn't be that lucky, and presumably she knows more about it than I do, but Wiki says the incidence in prison populations is 47%, so it doesn't seem too unlikely to me.

What does seem clear is that his lawyer really dropped the ball. None the less, I still think he did it.
  #246  
Old 12-08-2014, 01:00 PM
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One thing that annoys me a bit about Koenig is that she starts off reminding us how these kids can't be expected to remember what they were doing on these crucial dates, so don't take that as meaning anything. So whenever Adnan can't remember something or misremembers something, it is innocent and because of that. But when anyone else gets any details wrong or misremembers something, it must be because they are trying to mislead.
I haven't picked up on that at all. Can you give an example of who, according to Koenig, is trying to mislead?
  #247  
Old 12-08-2014, 01:03 PM
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As for Sarah Koenig, she's definitely reached the point where she's a little smitten with the whole story, and has lost the sense of journalistic impartiality, if she ever had it. Then again, This American Life has always walked a line of claiming to be journalism, but a form of journalism that invokes fictional narrative techniques...which to me isn't necessarily journalism to begin with.
I agree, though I don't necessarily fault her for it. As you say, this is more "story telling" than journalism.

One thing I really hope to see in one way or another after the final episode is Koenig stepping out of the narrator POV mode and reflecting on the whole concept of Serial and her role in the story. Preferably we'd see her interviewed by someone not involved in the production of the show. I know she's done some interviews, but I've been avoiding most online discussion of the show (SDMB excepted) for fear of encountering spoilers.
  #248  
Old 12-08-2014, 01:27 PM
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I haven't picked up on that at all. Can you give an example of who, according to Koenig, is trying to mislead?
Jen and Jay.
  #249  
Old 12-08-2014, 01:39 PM
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Jen and Jay.
Well in Jay's case, he's on record at telling contradictory stories so I'm fine with her pointing that out. I don't recall her saying that Jen is trying to mislead anybody - though just in listening to her it clearly sounded to me like somebody who was trying to keep made-up story straight.
  #250  
Old 12-08-2014, 02:19 PM
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I agree, though I don't necessarily fault her for it. As you say, this is more "story telling" than journalism.
Though to be honest, I wonder if the entire exercise (partially) may be a meta-narrative on journalism. If there anything really apart from story telling in trying to 'report' something.
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