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  #2501  
Old 05-06-2015, 03:56 PM
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Nope, total freak because that's what I decided. Non, je ne regrette rien.
  #2502  
Old 05-06-2015, 04:04 PM
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For such a committed agnostic who refuses to express any beliefs or opinions about anything, you sure are pretty darned emotional about what you don't know about.
I'm a happy guy -- even your continual lying doesn't puncture my happiness. And I express plenty of beliefs and opinions... another lie, I guess.
  #2503  
Old 05-06-2015, 04:32 PM
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Well, maybe, but you're not sure! By the way, seen your cat lately? Has anyone?
  #2504  
Old 05-06-2015, 05:20 PM
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And I express plenty of beliefs and opinions... another lie, I guess.
What is your belief and opinion about whether the Baltimore six are guilty?
  #2505  
Old 05-06-2015, 06:41 PM
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Come to think of it, why are switchblades illegal anyway?
Beats me; it isn't like you're any less wounded/dead if the other guy is using a sharp steak knife. My w.a.g. is that once upon a time switchblades were the knife equivalent of the scary black rifle.
  #2506  
Old 05-06-2015, 07:59 PM
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What is your belief and opinion about whether the Baltimore six are guilty?
I think there was enough evidence to indict them, but not all the evidence has been presented, so I'm not sure if there is enough to convict. And there are multiple charges -- some are probably more likely than others.

I'm not ready to conclude that they are guilty or not guilty -- and no one (aside from perhaps the prosecutor) should, because there's not enough evidence released to make any conclusion. That's what a trial is for, and I think there is sufficient evidence for a trial.
  #2507  
Old 05-06-2015, 08:50 PM
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I think there was enough evidence to indict them, but not all the evidence has been presented, so I'm not sure if there is enough to convict. And there are multiple charges -- some are probably more likely than others.

I'm not ready to conclude that they are guilty or not guilty -- and no one (aside from perhaps the prosecutor) should, because there's not enough evidence released to make any conclusion. That's what a trial is for, and I think there is sufficient evidence for a trial.
...So, guilty or not guilty?
  #2508  
Old 05-06-2015, 08:52 PM
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As I said already, the "excuse for the takedown" was Gray's unprovoked flight from the police.
How many of his neighbors need to be shot down before you'd accept his flight as provoked?
  #2509  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:12 PM
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How many of his neighbors need to be shot down before you'd accept his flight as provoked?
Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen ever responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot.
  #2510  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:50 PM
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Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen ever responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot.
Because he has read recent reports of police officers gunning down innocent citizens.
  #2511  
Old 05-06-2015, 09:57 PM
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Because he has read recent reports of police officers gunning down innocent citizens.
Seems to me that that would be a reason to not run - these supposed trigger-happy cops are more likely to notice someone who runs than someone who doesn't, aren't they?

I mean, unless Mr. Gray was of the belief that he could outrun a bullet.

Last edited by Smapti; 05-06-2015 at 09:57 PM.
  #2512  
Old 05-06-2015, 10:16 PM
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Would you be willing to testify for the prosecution, Smapti?
  #2513  
Old 05-06-2015, 10:17 PM
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Smapti's plan for more efficient law enforcement? :

Have teams of cops run wildly into arbitrary groups of citizens. Shoot anyone who runs. Bring lots of bullets.
  #2514  
Old 05-06-2015, 11:12 PM
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Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen ever responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot.
And the evidence offered for the existence of that eye contact is entirely the testimony of an officer involved? Well, that certainly settles that!
  #2515  
Old 05-06-2015, 11:24 PM
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Smapti's plan for more efficient law enforcement? :

Have teams of cops run wildly into arbitrary groups of citizens. Shoot anyone who runs. Bring lots of bullets.
Then presumably charge them with vandalism for defacing public property (viz. lots of bullets) with their internal organs.
  #2516  
Old 05-06-2015, 11:33 PM
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And the evidence offered for the existence of that eye contact is entirely the testimony of an officer involved? Well, that certainly settles that!
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...ry.html#page=1
When Freddie Gray briefly locked eyes with police at 8:39 a.m. on a corner of an impoverished West Baltimore neighborhood two weeks ago, they seemed to recognize each other immediately. As three officers approached on bicycles along West North Avenue, the 25-year-old Gray was on the east corner of North Mount Street chatting with a friend, according to Shawn Washington, who frequents the block.

"Ay, yo, here comes Time Out," a young man on the opposite corner yelled, using a neighborhood term for police.

Gray swore, taking off on foot as the officers began hot-stepping on their pedals to catch up. One officer jumped off his bike to chase Gray on foot, police said.
There were witnesses to him running from the police, you know.
  #2517  
Old 05-07-2015, 12:24 AM
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Last Friday, there was a march through parts of downtown Seattle, which was a combination Haymarket-May-Day type thing and a response to recently publicized police violence.

The Seattle Police were there, of course, in the black shirts, along with every television news crew available, providing live coverage almost as if they were hoping for something to happen.

The march was followed by a large phalanx of bicycle officers, and there were officers with large heavy shillelaghs standing guard over Urban Outfitters, Subway and their various other corporate masters.

The march progressed calmishly for well over an hour, blocking Friday evening traffic through some parts of the city. Then there was a ruckus, tear gas, pepper spray, chaos, the TV people got what they wanted.

Ranks of black-shirts in their armor, face shields and long wooden sticks spanned the street, herding the marchers in a circle as three or four officers dogpiled the nasty dude who had attacked the bicycle officer.

At this point, the images seem to show more police than citizens, not because the civilians were scattering as much as just the entire Seattle Police force had showed up for the party. This looked a lot like another militaristic display to remind everyone that Washington really is a Police State.

The mayor and the police chief, of course, praised the actions of the officers who maintained order well and quelled the riot. City Council member Bruce Harrel, however, saw it a little differently,
... one arrest in particular, which was captured by Air4 overhead, raises all kinds of use-of-force questions for Seattle police. The video shows a police officer riding his bike up to a protester. The officer then leaps off the bike and tackles the man.

"
Why did that occur? Because that seemed, from the video I've seen, to be the first act of violence," Harrell said.... Harrell asked the police department's top brass if the first arrest actually caused things to get out of control."It seems like that created the melee."

Captain Chris Fowler told Harrell the officers tackled and arrested the protester because he attacked an officer moments earlier.

... Police officials say they're still counting how many of the flash-bangs were used during the riot, but several protesters attended Wednesday's meeting to show off injuries they say they sustained from the devices.

Others claimed officers attacked them without provocation. "The police started the riots," one protester said.
In reality, it looked a lot like the police themselves had indeed shown up for a party, and, having gone to all the trouble to dress up, they were damn sure going to have one. Which is kind of ironic, as a component of the demonstration involved expressing displeasure at the increasing amount of constabulary excesses. Though, quite frankly, I am not convinced that there has been an increase – there are just so many more cameras around that we are merely learning now about the greater extent of what was already there all along.

I keep wanting to say to those officers, "You're not helping, you're the problem."
  #2518  
Old 05-07-2015, 12:46 AM
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Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen ever responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot.
Due to a extensive history of illegal arrests, beatings and searches by the likes of the Baltimore PD.

Cite: warning PDF

With the illegal Practices and well documented violence you would be stupid to stick around until they manufacture probable cause if you happen to be a minority and/or poor.

How stupid do you have to be to stick around with the hope that the officer is one of the "good ones". Who still won't stand up for you if/when they see another officer violating your rights or causing you harm for little to no reason.

Last edited by rat avatar; 05-07-2015 at 12:49 AM.
  #2519  
Old 05-07-2015, 12:59 AM
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....When Freddie Gray briefly locked eyes with police at 8:39 a.m. on a corner of an impoverished West Baltimore neighborhood two weeks ago, they seemed to recognize each other immediately....
I asked you for some substantiation of an essentially subjective experience, that is, eye contact. You return with a citation that changes nothing at all as if it were some telling point. So, rather than a police officer saying there was eye contact, its the Baltimore Sun saying it. OK, and so what? Was it a reporter with special eye contact training and expertise?

They "seemed to recognize each other immediately..." WTF? According to who? "Seemed"? Are you kidding, here?

Quote:
....There were witnesses to him running from the police, you know....
Yeah? Did I say that there weren't? What's your point?

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  #2520  
Old 05-07-2015, 01:00 AM
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Bwuh ? What's the point of using flashbangs in riot control ? All they do is incapacitate you for a handful of seconds. Which is more than enough in hostage or breach-and-clear situations, but won't get a crowd to disperse.
Seems more of a "fuck you" thing to do, honestly.

I gotta say though, I'm amused by the end of the article you quoted :
Quote:
Police say 16 officers were injured during the riot. The injuries range from a broken finger to hearing loss, according to police.
Hearing loss you say ? What could possibly have caused this ?!
  #2521  
Old 05-07-2015, 05:27 AM
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So, if you're white and own a ranch, you get to point guns at federal agents and all is hunky dory; if you're black and don't have a pot to piss in, having a pocket knife clipped to your pants is grounds for death.
  #2522  
Old 05-07-2015, 06:30 AM
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...So, guilty or not guilty?
How could I know that now? If I had to guess, guilty on some charges and not guilty on some. But I'm not certain. Why would anyone be certain? Why would certainty be a good thing?
  #2523  
Old 05-07-2015, 06:32 AM
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Seems to me that that would be a reason to not run - these supposed trigger-happy cops are more likely to notice someone who runs than someone who doesn't, aren't they?

I mean, unless Mr. Gray was of the belief that he could outrun a bullet.
Fear does not always lead to the most rational behavior. But it's very reasonable and rational for some black people to fear the police, based on their experiences. It was reasonable and rational for most black people through most of American history to see police as a dangerous, cruel, and unpredictable enemy, and it's still reasonable and rational for some black people to see them that way, even if many or most police officers individually aren't dangerous, cruel, or unpredictable.

Through most of American history, all government and all authority were the enemies of black people. It's only in recent decades that we've started to reverse this, but it's an ongoing process that isn't yet complete.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-07-2015 at 06:33 AM.
  #2524  
Old 05-07-2015, 06:56 AM
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I asked you for some substantiation of an essentially subjective experience, that is, eye contact.
Eye contact is legally irrelevant. Flight from police is the justification for the initial detaining.
  #2525  
Old 05-07-2015, 07:25 AM
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Please, explain to me why an honest, law-abiding citizen ever responds to making eye contact with a policeman by turning and fleeing on foot.
It amuses me when people who didn't grow up in a police state say dumb-ass things like this.

No, wait, the other thing- saddens, yes, that's it.
  #2526  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:13 AM
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At this point, the images seem to show more police than citizens, not because the civilians were scattering as much as just the entire Seattle Police force had showed up for the party. This looked a lot like another militaristic display to remind everyone that Washington really is a Police State.
Or maybe it has a little something to do with the history of "peaceful" protestors in Washington looting and smashing car windows like they did to me last year.
  #2527  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:15 AM
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With the illegal Practices and well documented violence you would be stupid to stick around until they manufacture probable cause if you happen to be a minority and/or poor.

How stupid do you have to be to stick around with the hope that the officer is one of the "good ones".
So Gray decided to run instead. How'd that work out for him? If he'd stayed, would he have been double-killed or something?
  #2528  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:28 AM
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So Gray decided to run instead. How'd that work out for him? If he'd stayed, would he have been double-killed or something?
At least when he choose to run, he had a chance to survive.
  #2529  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:31 AM
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At least when he choose to run, he had a chance to survive.
So what you're saying is that if Freddie Gray had not run, the cops would definitely have killed him?
  #2530  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:39 AM
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So Gray decided to run instead. How'd that work out for him? If he'd stayed, would he have been double-killed or something?
I'm trying to understand the relevance of this. Justification for the cop? "When he ran, I knew he was stupid, so I shot him."

Perhaps instead of Civics (which they won't need since voting and civil rights are intended for Whites) Blacks should take a class in Submission to Police. There's much to cover, e.g.
  • Smart Blacks don't wear baggy clothes or large pockets. Make it obvious to your betters that you don't have a gun.
  • Keep a set of handcuffs with you. When approached by LEO, cuff yourself so the cop knows he's not in danger.
  #2531  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:42 AM
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Gray was killed in the van, not while running, so I don't know what running has to do with it. Even if the police had legitimate reason to detain Gray (and this is in question), there's no justification for restraining/positioning/driving in such a way as to break his spine.
  #2532  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:43 AM
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I'm trying to understand the relevance of this. Justification for the cop? "When he ran, I knew he was stupid, so I shot him."
He ran upon making eye contact with the police. This was suspicious, because people generally don't run from the police unless they're doing or have recently done something illegal, so they pursued him. When they pursued him, they found that he indeed was doing something illegal, i.e. carrying an illegal knife, so they arrested him.
  #2533  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:45 AM
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He ran upon making eye contact with the police. This was suspicious, because people generally don't run from the police unless they're doing or have recently done something illegal, so they pursued him. When they pursued him, they found that he indeed was doing something illegal, i.e. carrying an illegal knife, so they arrested him.
This is the story the cops tell (and the knife has not been established to have been "illegal"), but I don't know how anyone can be ready to assume it's the truth.

Except, of course, that Smapti is constitutionally incapable of seeing cops as possibly mistaken or lying.
  #2534  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:49 AM
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Except, of course, that Smapti is constitutionally incapable of seeing cops as possibly mistaken or lying.
The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
  #2535  
Old 05-07-2015, 09:16 AM
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The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
Maybe by you, but that doesn't mean everyone will (or everyone should).
  #2536  
Old 05-07-2015, 09:32 AM
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The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
Wow, that's stupid even by your standards. The invisible intangible unicorn on your shoulder (the existence of which you can cite no evidence against) agrees with me.
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  #2537  
Old 05-07-2015, 09:35 AM
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The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
That seems pretty Pollyannish. My college roommate once said there were three types of cops: 1) the professionals (and hopefully most are these), 2) the assholes (who get off on bullying people and abusing their power), and 3) the losers (who become cops to get power and respect they never would have otherwise).

It seems Smapti denies the existence of the 2nd and 3rd types.
  #2538  
Old 05-07-2015, 09:50 AM
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That seems pretty Pollyannish. My college roommate once said there were three types of cops: 1) the professionals (and hopefully most are these), 2) the assholes (who get off on bullying people and abusing their power), and 3) the losers (who become cops to get power and respect they never would have otherwise).

It seems Smapti denies the existence of the 2nd and 3rd types.
I heard it a bit differently from a retired-cop-friend-of-a-friend -- he said 60% of cops just want to do their jobs and go home safe (the 'professionals', I suppose), 20% want to be SUPERCOP (they want to be super-hero crime-fighters and have very good, though ambitious, intentions), and 20% are bullies who get off on pushing people around.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 05-07-2015 at 09:52 AM.
  #2539  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:00 AM
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The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
The same could be said of the President, or members of Congress. Do you view their comments with the same deference?
  #2540  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:03 AM
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I heard it a bit differently from a retired-cop-friend-of-a-friend -- he said 60% of cops just want to do their jobs and go home safe (the 'professionals', I suppose), 20% want to be SUPERCOP (they want to be super-hero crime-fighters and have very good, though ambitious, intentions), and 20% are bullies who get off on pushing people around.
Maybe we need a Venn diagram, then.
  #2541  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:18 AM
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The police are sworn servants of the public. Their word is to be preferred by default in the absence of evidence against it.
Your world is a perfect syllogism, isn't it? These are the people who we define as trustworthy, therefore we should always trust them, and damn the evidence to the contrary.

If police had not, in hundreds of ways and over thousands of incidents, shown themselves to be prone to lying, violence, and the violation of citizens' rights, you might have a point.

The problem is that a staggering amount of evidence demonstrates quite clearly that, even though we should be able to trust the word of the police, we often can't, because they seem, as a group, to be no more honest and trustworthy and reliable than the criminals that they are supposed to protect us from.

My stepfather is a retired police officer. My mother spent the last 12 years of her working life as a civilian worker in a number of large police stations. We had cops around our place a lot, and they all seemed like great people who took their jobs seriously. But despite my belief that being a police officer is an admirable and important job, and despite my predisposition, based on my own personal experience, to trust and respect the job, i no longer have confidence that a randomly-selected police officer is more trustworthy or believable in a he-said-she-said situation than any other random stranger.

I didn't come to this belief because i'm a cop-hater. I came to it because a mounting pile of evidence suggests that too many cops are bullies and assholes and liars who take the job precisely because it allows them to get away with being bullies and assholes and liars.

One of my best students at the university where i teach told me the other day that, when she graduates, she's applying to join the San Diego Police Department. I told her that was great, and i really meant it, because i think that the SDPD will benefit from the addition of a thoughtful, intelligent, socially-aware person who really wants to do some good in the world.

What we need is police forces who actively look for this sort of person, rather than take any power-hungry bully who wants to strap on a badge and gun. And we also need our police hierarchies to make clear to the good cops that it is acceptable—nay, that it is essential—for them to help root out the bad ones.
  #2542  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:19 AM
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Or maybe it has a little something to do with the history of "peaceful" protestors in Washington looting and smashing car windows like they did to me last year.
Were there any police in the area at the time? Because it sure seems like mayhem attends them. It is kind of like the uncertainty principle, we cannot be sure that "looting and violence" would occur in absence of the black-shirts.
  #2543  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:52 AM
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The same could be said of the President, or members of Congress. Do you view their comments with the same deference?
Police are appointed, not elected.
  #2544  
Old 05-07-2015, 10:54 AM
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Were there any police in the area at the time? Because it sure seems like mayhem attends them. It is kind of like the uncertainty principle, we cannot be sure that "looting and violence" would occur in absence of the black-shirts.
The main body of the police were monitoring the larger protests about a mile away from where the "peaceful" protestors decided to smash my windows in.

I guess I should be glad my windows were smashed and I had to pay to replace them because it raises awareness of something.
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Old 05-07-2015, 11:00 AM
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The main body of the police were monitoring the larger protests about a mile away from where the "peaceful" protestors decided to smash my windows in.

I guess I should be glad my windows were smashed and I had to pay to replace them because it raises awareness of something.
Sure it wasn't a neighbor? I get the feeling that if I were in that position, it may have been an opportunity I couldn't ignore.
  #2546  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
One of my best students at the university where i teach told me the other day that, when she graduates, she's applying to join the San Diego Police Department. I told her that was great, and i really meant it, because i think that the SDPD will benefit from the addition of a thoughtful, intelligent, socially-aware person who really wants to do some good in the world.
He may be out of luck if they use this criterion:

Quote:
A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city....
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Last edited by Steve MB; 05-07-2015 at 11:12 AM.
  #2547  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
He may be out of luck if they use this criterion:
Quote:
A man whose bid to become a police officer was rejected after he scored too high on an intelligence test has lost an appeal in his federal lawsuit against the city....
They could hire Smapti, then.
  #2548  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
He may be out of luck if they use this criterion:
But it's true that most law enforcement agencies aren't particularly interested in anyone with an above-average IQ (because it is also true that police work is no different than a majority of jobs after they become rote: dull.) Rather unfortunately, the earlier-mentioned 40% (20% who want to be "super cops" and 20% malcontents (for lack of other words) are those insistent on making it a pulse-pounding or otherwise entertaining endeavor. (Kinda like court and motor vehicle clerks, only ... different.)
  #2549  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
He may be out of luck if they use this criterion:
Wow. No words.
  #2550  
Old 05-07-2015, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
Or maybe it has a little something to do with the history of "peaceful" protestors in Washington looting and smashing car windows like they did to me last year.
Did they know you?
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