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  #51  
Old 04-25-2019, 03:18 PM
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I'm a hard pass on Joe, and I agree that's a stupid line of attack. Nobody is going to decide that Obama's VP is a closet racist because he said some bad stuff forty years ago, nor should they. Biden's base of support is older moderates, and I'm guessing most of that demographic also hold more enlightened views on racial issues today than they did forty years ago, so they're unlikely to hold it against him.
  #52  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Biden pulls off duty tarp covering old campaign motorcycle.

"You hear that baby purring into third gear, your vote isnít the only thing Uncle Joeís gonna get."

Will be interesting now that he's finally in. Half of the pundits are saying his candidacy will pull all the energy and money from the middle candidates like Booker and Klobuchar. Others are saying he's gonna have a real hard time keeping up with everyone else as far as fundraising goes.

But as far as endorsements go, he leapfrogs the entire field in a matter of hours.
Here's one

What's his stance on medicare? Free at point of use? If not, why should anyone waste their time on him.

They tried 'Not Trump' In 2016, and they lost.
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  #53  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:29 PM
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nm

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  #54  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:30 PM
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You may have not read the first link. It lays out a pretty compelling case.
  #55  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:37 PM
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TBH I wish you hadn't linked to satire in the opening post, Happy. I mean, the article's funny, but people like aceplace57 might think this was a legit quote.
TBH I'm not going to cater my posts to accommodate aceplace.
  #56  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:39 PM
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Here's one

What's his stance on medicare? Free at point of use? If not, why should anyone waste their time on him.

They tried 'Not Trump' In 2016, and they lost.
You could also ask, why should anyone waste their time on Bernie, who proposes single-payer universal health care?

I mean, it's a great idea, but in the current American political landscape it makes him unelectable. That guy you mention above who beat Hillary? He proposed going in the opposite direction, and repealing Obamacare. And he won, despite having no actual ideas at all. Does that make "free health care at point of use" sound like a winning proposition in today's right-wing America?
  #57  
Old 04-25-2019, 04:55 PM
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Does that make "free health care at point of use" sound like a winning proposition in today's right-wing America?
Yeah, it does. A majority of people in the US want it.
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  #58  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:05 PM
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Now THIS really pisses me off.
  #59  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:26 PM
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Yeah, it does. A majority of people in the US want it.
A few observations about that, which I've seen before and which is obviously encouraging as far as it goes. But ...

1. This must be the famous "silent majority" who apparently don't bother voting.

2. The support for public UHC was even higher between 2000 and 2008. So this is not new. Yet Obama could only pass a highly watered-down version of it, notably without the public option.

3. The polling prior to 2000 isn't shown. But only six years prior, Hillary's health care initiative during the Clinton administration failed completely.

4. If Bernie (or anyone else supporting public UHC) becomes the nominee, you can expect both Republicans and the omnipotent health insurance lobby to come out swinging and attacking like they've never attacked before. It will make the "Harry and Louise" ad blitz that helped kill the Clinton reform initiative seem like an afternoon in daycare. There will be horror stories, scare tactics, dire warnings about death panels, anti-socialist tirades. They will destroy Bernie, totally and completely. They know how to do it. These people have been able to turn war heroes into putative criminals when it served their purposes.

I would, of course, love to be proven wrong about all of this. But I think it accurately reflects the current political landscape -- the one that elected Trump.
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Old 04-25-2019, 05:32 PM
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I'm glad we have a year to let things settle and learn more about the vast panoply of would-be nominees. Personal favorites are Swalwell (he's fucking awesome), Buttigieg, Booker, Biden, Warren, Harris... basically, anyone but Gillibrand.

In November 2020? I will vote for the Democratic nominee. Literally anyone. A balloon on a stick, SpongeBob Squarepants, Toonces the cat, even (holding my nose) Kristen Gilibrand.

Why am I sticking Biden up in my top four? He's made votes I most definitely do not approve of. But I think he's a smart, inquisitive, thoughtful, compassionate and (at least when I've seen him interviewed recently) sharp and well-informed person. Also, humble and funny, two things that are less important but much missed in our current narcissistic, venal, shitheaded president.
  #61  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:32 PM
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...forty years ago (as it says in the first words of the cite).

Nothing personal, RP, but wake me when they have something from this century.

Disclaimer: not in the tank for Joe.
You think his position has changed?
  #62  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:34 PM
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Joe Biden? Give me a fucking break. He should primary his fellow Republican, Donald Trump. The DNC will find a way to re-elect Trump. Maybe on the 2nd ballot, when SUPERDELEGATES appear thanks to that piece of shit tom perez.
  #63  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:35 PM
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...forty years ago (as it says in the first words of the cite).
Which was 20 years after Brown v. Board of Education.

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  #64  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:39 PM
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I'm glad we have a year to let things settle and learn more about the vast panoply of would-be nominees. Personal favorites are Swalwell (he's fucking awesome), Buttigieg, Booker, Biden, Warren, Harris... basically, anyone but Gillibrand.
I agree. Fuck Gillibrand. That said, if she wins the nomination, I will vote for her with a smile.
  #65  
Old 04-25-2019, 05:46 PM
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I agree. Fuck Gillibrand. That said, if she wins the nomination, I will vote for her with a smile.
What's wrong with Gillibrand? She's not my favorite, but far from my least favorite. Is it the Franken thing? If so, that actually made me like her more.
  #66  
Old 04-25-2019, 06:12 PM
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A few observations about that, which I've seen before and which is obviously encouraging as far as it goes. But ...

1. This must be the famous "silent majority" who apparently don't bother voting.

2. The support for public UHC was even higher between 2000 and 2008. So this is not new. Yet Obama could only pass a highly watered-down version of it, notably without the public option.

3. The polling prior to 2000 isn't shown. But only six years prior, Hillary's health care initiative during the Clinton administration failed completely.

4. If Bernie (or anyone else supporting public UHC) becomes the nominee, you can expect both Republicans and the omnipotent health insurance lobby to come out swinging and attacking like they've never attacked before. It will make the "Harry and Louise" ad blitz that helped kill the Clinton reform initiative seem like an afternoon in daycare. There will be horror stories, scare tactics, dire warnings about death panels, anti-socialist tirades. They will destroy Bernie, totally and completely. They know how to do it. These people have been able to turn war heroes into putative criminals when it served their purposes.
Republicans were all for single payer (see slide #2) till Obama got in. Then Mitch McConnell & Co. made it their singular mission to oppose all things Obama (literally). IIRC correctly there was a poll showing the same people opposed to "Obamacare" but supported the "Affordable Care Act". Conservatives are not the brightest bunch (some are but nowhere near enough...see my signature).

That's pretty much your answer right there. And McConnell has vowed to oppose democratic proposals after the 2020 election. So fun times.

That does not mean we shouldn't want a candidate who will try.
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  #67  
Old 04-25-2019, 06:20 PM
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Republicans were all for single payer (see slide #2) till Obama got in.
That's not what slide 2 says. The slide describes "percent who say they favor the federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for more Americans." Republicans were at 72% in Nov-06, 49% in Sep-08, and 40% in Jan-19.

Unless federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for more Americans = single payer, then I'd say your cite doesn't support your assertion.
  #68  
Old 04-25-2019, 06:36 PM
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That's not what slide 2 says. The slide describes "percent who say they favor the federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for more Americans." Republicans were at 72% in Nov-06, 49% in Sep-08, and 40% in Jan-19.

Unless federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for more Americans = single payer, then I'd say your cite doesn't support your assertion.
Fine. They wanted healthcare reform of some sort. Something republicans are decidedly not doing even though a majority of republicans want Medicare For All now.
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  #69  
Old 04-25-2019, 07:03 PM
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You think his position has changed?
Maybe.
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  #70  
Old 04-26-2019, 09:40 AM
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Look, I like Biden fine and I thought he was a good VP, but I'm just not feeling him now. He just isn't where the party is today on a whole host of issues, and his constant chumminess with the enemy (the Republicans) is too disqualifying; the Republicans stole a Supreme Court seat FFS, so I want a candidate who's ruthlessly efficient enough to defeat them everywhere and to then salt the earth over their political graves.

All that said, I firmly believe that Biden would've cleaned Trump's clock in 2016 - as would have Sanders BTW - so it's even more tragic that his son died and he (understandably) chose not to run. He was also likely dissuaded that year by the Democratic Party's incredibly stupid decision to preclear the field and coronate Hillary Clinton, but whatever.

He is the tentative frontrunner now that he's officially in I guess, but I don't know how long that will hold.
  #71  
Old 04-26-2019, 10:03 AM
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Republicans were all for single payer (see slide #2) till Obama got in. Then Mitch McConnell & Co. made it their singular mission to oppose all things Obama (literally). IIRC correctly there was a poll showing the same people opposed to "Obamacare" but supported the "Affordable Care Act". Conservatives are not the brightest bunch (some are but nowhere near enough...see my signature).

That's pretty much your answer right there. And McConnell has vowed to oppose democratic proposals after the 2020 election. So fun times.

That does not mean we shouldn't want a candidate who will try.
The problem, as with so many other issues, is that "moderates" and "independents" prevent are so much in the middle and afraid of the government taking any kind of bold action that there is no political consensus on this issue. A clear majority of people have been saying for some time "Fix healthcare" but when actual solutions are proposed it appears to be too much of a hassle. The average American views remaking healthcare the same way the average middle class homeowner views remodeling their kitchen and bathroom: costly, inconvenient, and ultimately unable to envision the long-term benefit. That's why Obamacare, for all of its faults, was probably the most practical step in the right direction. Expanding medicaid and creating health marketplaces was much easier for the average person to wrap their heads around than single payer medicare for all.

And that's what I predict will ultimately happen if Bernie Sanders ends up on the big stage. The fact is that big ideas quite often scare the shit out of people once they start imagining all of the near-term headaches that may happen, including the imaginary headaches drawn up by Republican propaganda. Yes, Republicans will be Republicans, and they will oppose healthcare reform, just as we know that Democrats will support it. But it's the ones in the middle who will have the last word, and I worry that the more "real" single payer becomes in the eyes of ordinary folk who, at least for now, are benefiting from economic growth and relative stability, the more I think Sanders' politics will be bone jarring.
  #72  
Old 04-26-2019, 10:12 AM
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Look, I like Biden fine and I thought he was a good VP, but I'm just not feeling him now. He just isn't where the party is today on a whole host of issues,
On top of that, he has run for president before back when being a moderate was "in" and he never got much traction. He has never had anything remotely close to a successful presidential run and he ran once in 1988 and again in 2008.

People who think Joe is going to clean the bases are looking mostly at the electoral math and not thinking in terms of the person. Like you, I like Joe -- seems like a good guy you can sit down and have beer and hot dogs with. But Joe the man hasn't been a very effective political campaigner on the biggest stage.

Joe Biden is very much like Hillary Clinton in that they both rehabbed their careers serving in the Obama administration. I predict that, as it was with Hillary, he's going to find out that people will forget very quickly that he was once Obama's wing man. It seems like they already have, and that doesn't portend good thing for his campaign.
  #73  
Old 04-26-2019, 11:30 AM
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You could also ask, why should anyone waste their time on Bernie, who proposes single-payer universal health care?

I mean, it's a great idea, but in the current American political landscape it makes him unelectable. That guy you mention above who beat Hillary? He proposed going in the opposite direction, and repealing Obamacare. And he won, despite having no actual ideas at all. Does that make "free health care at point of use" sound like a winning proposition in today's right-wing America?
But he did have ideas, just ideas that you, seemingly someone who doesn't do much research on this, didn't like, and he won. It was Hillary who didn't have any specific ideas which were original, and Hillary who just presumed she could walk into the presidency.

So yeah, your new best buddy Sanders platform of universal healthcare, is appealing to the majority of voters, even rightwing ones, which is why he is regularly polling as the number one candidate, your old buddies like Biden and Buttigieg and Beto have all been done before, in 2016, and failed miserably.

So get used to paying more taxes for healthcare.
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  #74  
Old 04-26-2019, 11:36 AM
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I still don't understand the appeal of Biden and how he jumps to 1# in mere hours. He is an old white man and a throwback to the 1980s-1990s instead of the 2020s. What is generating the fireworks exactly?
Let me put it this way: have YOU ever heard of Eric Swalwell? Or that Hickenlooper guy? Actually, not fair. Anyone who's heard THAT name will never forget it. So, how about Bill Ryan or Jennifer Constantine? They aren't running, as I just made them up, but for a moment, didn't you think they were real?

Biden is at the top because he's known. Certainly not because of anything he's done in the past, oh, decade or more.
  #75  
Old 04-26-2019, 12:08 PM
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Expanding medicaid and creating health marketplaces was much easier for the average person to wrap their heads around than single payer medicare for all.
What could be easier for the public to understand than Medicare for All? It's right in the name and we have no shortage of experience with it. Tell them to ask grandma how she likes her Medicare. Done and done.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-26-2019 at 12:09 PM.
  #76  
Old 04-26-2019, 12:52 PM
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... Biden is at the top because he's known. ...
A not insignificant nit to pick: because he's known and liked, especially by some demographics that are widely thought of as critical for electoral success at a presidential level.

He may fizzle. It wouldn't surprise given how he has fizzled when he's run before. But lots of people are also "known" and don't have the same approval ratings by those key groups.
  #77  
Old 04-26-2019, 01:10 PM
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But he did have ideas, just ideas that you, seemingly someone who doesn't do much research on this, didn't like, and he won. ...
Ideas. Trump. That's putting it charitably. He ran on building a mythical wall, totally and completely banning Muslims (his words) from entering the country, and repealing (and replacing) the Affordable Care Act. None of which, of course, have happened.
  #78  
Old 04-26-2019, 01:46 PM
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Just got this in an email from the Biden people:
Quote:
we have some AMAZING news -

Our campaign raised $6.3 million in its first 24 hours!! Thatís more than any other presidential campaign so far!!

And Happy, itís proof we are running a truly grassroots campaign:

97% of online donations were under $200
We received donations from all 50 states and US territories
The average online donation was $41
So thank you so much to all 96,926 people who chipped in on Day One. We couldnít have achieved this amazing milestone without you.
So about $200,000 more than Beto's first 24-hour draw.
  #79  
Old 04-26-2019, 03:04 PM
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I wonder what percent of his total donations came from online donors.
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Old 04-26-2019, 03:05 PM
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Ideas. Trump. That's putting it charitably. He ran on building a mythical wall, totally and completely banning Muslims (his words) from entering the country, and repealing (and replacing) the Affordable Care Act. None of which, of course, have happened.
I didn't say they were good ideas.
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Old 04-26-2019, 03:19 PM
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I wonder what percent of his total donations came from online donors.
I would assume a lot since in the first 24 hours you can only have so many $2k/plate fundraisers and aren't recieving many checks in the mail.
  #82  
Old 04-26-2019, 04:13 PM
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I still don't understand the appeal of Biden and how he jumps to 1# in mere hours. He is an old white man and a throwback to the 1980s-1990s instead of the 2020s. What is generating the fireworks exactly?
For one thing, I am an old white man and I don't care for people who use the term "old white man" as anything other than a demographic description. Just like "millenials," blacks," and "women" don't particularly like people who lump them all into a single group.

Second, the current President won the three states necessary for his improbable election by less than 200,000 votes. His Democratic opponent barely won three other states by an even smaller margin. And old white Joe Biden, as clueless as he seems about women and as prone to misspeaking as he is, still shows a lot more warmth and humanity than most human beings, let alone most Democratic candidates.

Contrast that to the current President, and that could be enough to win three states full of old white men while not losing the other three.

Last edited by Kent Clark; 04-26-2019 at 04:16 PM.
  #83  
Old 04-26-2019, 04:20 PM
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I wonder - What if someone went back to these boards in the early 2000s and posted about recent elections. That by 2016 and 2020, Democrats would be excited about candidates who voted in favor of the the Iraq war, and that saying you won't vote for a president who voted for the Iraq war would bring harsh condemnation and accusations that you're a vile person. Would they be taken seriously, or would they just be called a troll for stating something that's obviously nonsense? Because unless Biden gets knocked out early, that's what is going to happen.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:08 PM
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They might be taken seriously-ish until they let slip who the current you-know-who is. Then they'd be cornfielded like a bad-tripping schizophrenic moon landing denier.

Last edited by bobot; 04-26-2019 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:10 PM
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How we got here and why a retired politician is running for office at 76 years old.
I found this insight into Joe's decision very well researched and interesting.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfc...e-13794585.php
I remember when Biden retired and setup the Biden Foundation. It's run for a couple years and stopped operation after Joe entered the race.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...mediately.html

Btw, Joe's sister, Valerie Biden Owens has managed all of Joe's Senate and Presidential races. I'm interested to see if she manages this race too.
http://www.valeriebidenowens.com

Quote:
This account of how he arrived at his decision is based on interviews with more than a dozen aides, longtime friends, advisers and family members who have discussed his deliberation over the past three years. Some requested anonymity in order to speak candidly about their conversations and observations.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-26-2019 at 05:14 PM.
  #86  
Old 04-26-2019, 05:18 PM
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I guess the Penn Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement has to shut down too? It's part of Penn State University.
https://www.thedp.com/article/2017/0...penn-professor
https://global.upenn.edu/penn-biden-center

Joe had a full life planned after politics.

Honestly I'm not sure that I would have jumped back into politics. It's so ugly and mean spirited now.

Last edited by aceplace57; 04-26-2019 at 05:21 PM.
  #87  
Old 04-26-2019, 05:30 PM
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Just got this in an email from the Biden people:
Quote:
we have some AMAZING news -

Our campaign raised $6.3 million in its first 24 hours!! Thatís more than any other presidential campaign so far!!

And Happy, itís proof we are running a truly grassroots campaign:

97% of online donations were under $200
We received donations from all 50 states and US territories
The average online donation was $41
So thank you so much to all 96,926 people who chipped in on Day One. We couldnít have achieved this amazing milestone without you.
So about $200,000 more than Beto's first 24-hour draw.
"How to lie with statistics."

It's well-crafted. Probably few will stop to realize that all the stats about online donations do NOT mean that online donations form the largest part of the total take.
  #88  
Old 04-26-2019, 05:57 PM
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"How to lie with statistics.".
That's actually just crafting a message. Absolutely everyone who has an agenda does it, from parents talking to their kids to people running for president. It's messaging. Sure you're able to read between the lines, but assuming the numbers are correct, they didn't lie.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:01 PM
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What could be easier for the public to understand than Medicare for All? It's right in the name and we have no shortage of experience with it. Tell them to ask grandma how she likes her Medicare. Done and done.
Except that what Sanders is talking about is essentially abolishing private insurance, which is about as crazy as Ted Cruz sounded when he talked about abolishing the IRS. I mean nobody took Cruz seriously for that kind of Overton window crap, and I would hope we don't take Bernie seriously with this nonsense either. Where does St. Bernard think he's going to get the money to pay for this? More importantly, who pays?
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:15 PM
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Biden is attractive because he's the most appealing among all the Democratic candidates in the eyes of independent voters, who generally lean away from Bernie Sanders and AOC. Like Sherrod Brown, Biden could be competitive with Trump in a general election for that reason. But the reality is, the campaign has just begun and we have a long way to go between then and now, and he first has to convince his party that he can not only beat Trump but that he's an authentic progressive.

At this stage of the race, people are just trying to get recognized. Trump started in 2015 with only 5% of the GOP behind him. Obama trailed Hillary Clinton significantly and for most of 2007. But as both races showed, pretty soon the candidates are going to get a lot of airtime and they will be exposed. People will start tuning in and the candidates will no longer be just names and sound bytes, but they will become personalities. And people will become subconsciously either drawn to or repulsed by those personalities. I don't see how a guy who failed pretty badly in the era of cable TV gets it right 12 years later in the era of cable TV plus social media.

I don't think his opening speech yesterday was particularly bad, but what has been pretty damn bad is watching how he contorts and squirms his way through difficult questions, hedging about just how sorry he is or isn't when it comes to his handling of Anita Hill or his past violations of personal space. On a deeper level, I subconsciously look at Joe's expressions on TV and wonder just how badly he really wants to be there. I don't get that feeling with Bernie or many of the others. You can tell they want this, that they want the stage, and that they believe their time has come.
  #91  
Old 04-26-2019, 06:28 PM
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Just got this in an email from the Biden people:

So about $200,000 more than Beto's first 24-hour draw.
This will be interesting to dissect later, after more information is in. For now, there's this

Quote:
Bidenís campaign announced Friday that 97 percent of online donations were less than $200, with an average of $41. All up, Biden received funds from 96,962 donors, but the campaign did not specify how many gave small donations.

Although slightly outpaced by Biden, Sanders did have more donors, totaling 223,047 in the first 24 hours of his campaign, with an average donation of $27.
Bernie outpaced the number of donors by twice as many. Since the average amount under $200 wasn't double, there were more contributions of over $200. It will be interesting to see what that says about the longevity of the campaign and whether more donors or more dollars count more.

My guess is that in the past, the dollars counted more.
  #92  
Old 04-26-2019, 06:50 PM
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That's actually just crafting a message. Absolutely everyone who has an agenda does it, from parents talking to their kids to people running for president. It's messaging. Sure you're able to read between the lines, but assuming the numbers are correct, they didn't lie.
If someone deliberately sets out to make people think something is true that's actually quite far from the truth, you can call it whatever you like. I call it a lie. Why deny the obvious, child?
  #93  
Old 04-26-2019, 07:07 PM
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Oh Ace, never change.



You gotta admit though, that's one perk -- Onion Biden will return.
  #94  
Old 04-26-2019, 07:18 PM
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That's actually just crafting a message. Absolutely everyone who has an agenda does it, from parents talking to their kids to people running for president. It's messaging. Sure you're able to read between the lines, but assuming the numbers are correct, they didn't lie.
Yes. But that sort of thing---being deliberately misleading---is what gives politics a bad name. (And not everyone does it.)




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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
...I don't think his opening speech yesterday was particularly bad, but what has been pretty damn bad is watching how he contorts and squirms his way through difficult questions, hedging about just how sorry he is or isn't when it comes to his handling of Anita Hill or his past violations of personal space. ...
My thought about today's The View Biden performance was: this is going to be the Trump campaign's first anti-Biden ad.

It's not merely that Trump voters think "never apologize" is the best way to go through life (though most of them do); it's that Biden was so bad at dealing with the topic. Just attack-ad-ready.
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Old 04-26-2019, 07:20 PM
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If someone deliberately sets out to make people think something is true that's actually quite far from the truth, you can call it whatever you like. I call it a lie. Why deny the obvious, child?
Where's the lie in what the campaign said? Campaigns always spin and message to make themselves look stronger and better and more dominant. They spin poll numbers, they spin debate results, they spin their records, they spin their opponents' records, they spin jobs numbers, they spin trends, and they spin fundraising results. They spin toward their strengths and away from their weaknesses.

Sometimes they do lie, but I'm not seeing a lie here. Unless the numbers and stats they gave are incorrect.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 04-26-2019 at 07:21 PM.
  #96  
Old 04-27-2019, 12:42 AM
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Except that what Sanders is talking about is essentially abolishing private insurance, which is about as crazy as Ted Cruz sounded when he talked about abolishing the IRS. I mean nobody took Cruz seriously for that kind of Overton window crap, and I would hope we don't take Bernie seriously with this nonsense either. Where does St. Bernard think he's going to get the money to pay for this? More importantly, who pays?
Really? Ok.

What is lost in the discussion is people see a new tax and freak.

Thing is, they are already paying for healthcare. Paying a lot. And Medicare for All is not in addition to what they pay but in lieu of what they pay.

Why people do not get this simple point is beyond me. People seem to think an extra $1000 in taxes is worse than paying $2000 in insurance premiums each year.

There is a reason pretty much the entire western world has socialized medicine. Do you really think they are all morons and the US has it right? Despite abundant evidence that they have lower costs, better service and better health outcomes overall?

Not to mention that a study initiated by conservatives showed the US would save $2 trillion with a single payer plan than what we do now.

So yeah, I think we can afford it. What we cannot afford is the continuous skyrocketing of healthcare costs. Really...think about it...where does that end? Biden will happily ride us down that road of ever increasing healthcare costs. Without a doubt.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-27-2019 at 12:45 AM.
  #97  
Old 04-27-2019, 06:49 AM
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Really? Ok.

What is lost in the discussion is people see a new tax and freak.

Thing is, they are already paying for healthcare. Paying a lot. And Medicare for All is not in addition to what they pay but in lieu of what they pay.

Why people do not get this simple point is beyond me. People seem to think an extra $1000 in taxes is worse than paying $2000 in insurance premiums each year.

There is a reason pretty much the entire western world has socialized medicine. Do you really think they are all morons and the US has it right? Despite abundant evidence that they have lower costs, better service and better health outcomes overall?

Not to mention that a study initiated by conservatives showed the US would save $2 trillion with a single payer plan than what we do now.

So yeah, I think we can afford it. What we cannot afford is the continuous skyrocketing of healthcare costs. Really...think about it...where does that end? Biden will happily ride us down that road of ever increasing healthcare costs. Without a doubt.
I'm not necessarily saying that it can't be done or that it's a bad idea -- I like the idea of single payer myself, but that's not really what I'm getting at. My point is, this would be major, major change. Obama lost the Congress in 2010 because of healthcare reforms which were relatively mild but nevertheless scary to people. The changes would be much more drastic and probably much scarier for people.

"Elimination of my private insurance even though I like my employer-sponsored health plan?"

"Raising my taxes by how much again?"

Maybe offer a public option like Obamacare was originally intended to offer, but going full-on Medicare-for-all is going to frighten a lot of people we need to defeat Trump. You won't see that reflected in the polls now, but you'll see it the closer we get to the general election if Bernie Sanders or someone else promoting this kinda of legislation wins. It'll be a non-starter with independents, which means we'd lose.
  #98  
Old 04-27-2019, 07:20 AM
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Where's the lie in what the campaign said? Campaigns always spin and message to make themselves look stronger and better and more dominant. They spin poll numbers, they spin debate results, they spin their records, they spin their opponents' records, they spin jobs numbers, they spin trends, and they spin fundraising results. They spin toward their strengths and away from their weaknesses.

Sometimes they do lie, but I'm not seeing a lie here. Unless the numbers and stats they gave are incorrect.
Sure, technically they are not lying.

But I don't hold with some "campaign exception" to right and wrong. If their intent is to get me to believe X when X is a falsehood, then they're lying to me. I don't care if 'they' is my next-door neighbor, or someone down the hall at work, or someone working for a political campaign.
  #99  
Old 04-27-2019, 09:43 AM
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I'm not necessarily saying that it can't be done or that it's a bad idea -- I like the idea of single payer myself, but that's not really what I'm getting at. My point is, this would be major, major change. Obama lost the Congress in 2010 because of healthcare reforms which were relatively mild but nevertheless scary to people. The changes would be much more drastic and probably much scarier for people.

"Elimination of my private insurance even though I like my employer-sponsored health plan?"

"Raising my taxes by how much again?"

Maybe offer a public option like Obamacare was originally intended to offer, but going full-on Medicare-for-all is going to frighten a lot of people we need to defeat Trump. You won't see that reflected in the polls now, but you'll see it the closer we get to the general election if Bernie Sanders or someone else promoting this kinda of legislation wins. It'll be a non-starter with independents, which means we'd lose.
It's all in the messaging. When conservatives can sell "death panels," and liberals can't shut that down, is the problem. Death panels are absurd but people bought it.

I think the new crop of legislators is better at the messaging than previous ones. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has a knack for it. I think if someone tossed "death panels" at her she'd swat it down with ease. She's just one person and it is a monumental task but gotta start somewhere.

And that is really it...gotta start somewhere. If we go with your take on it then it will never happen because you will always say we need to win the next election and cannot deal with this now. If not now then when?
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 04-27-2019 at 09:44 AM.
  #100  
Old 04-27-2019, 10:30 AM
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It's probably me, but I don't really understand Biden's appeal. He seems very bland. I wouldn't be surprised to see him drop out by the 3rd or 4th primary/caucus.
For me, Biden's appeal is that he is the most likely candidate to ball up his fist and break Trump's nose during a debate. Then flash a smile. And I'm pretty sure nobody will try to stop him.

Biden with a knock-out in first round.
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