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  #51  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:32 PM
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Where are you getting your definition of "game" and what games currently meet your rigid specifications?
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Originally Posted by muldoonthief View Post
Or college, or high school? Team sports have coaches, who also coach during a game. It's been that way for a very long time.
No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They're all cheating all the time.

The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period.

And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 01-15-2020 at 03:35 PM.
  #52  
Old 01-15-2020, 03:46 PM
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No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They're all cheating all the time.
Acsenray, you may want to at least consider the possibility that games are creations of people, and the rules by which they are played are, not to put too fine a point on it, whatever works.

Given that essentially all team sports have in-game coaching, and everyone except you is okay with it, and it seems to work fine, perhaps you should revisit what the word "cheating" means.
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  #53  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:12 PM
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While we’re at it let’s get rid of uniforms too, so we can fully enjoy the display of athletic bodies as they did in the original Olympic Games. Competing while clothed or wearing other protective equipment is cheating.

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/image..._14.130.12.jpg
  #54  
Old 01-15-2020, 05:36 PM
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While we’re at it let’s get rid of uniforms too, so we can fully enjoy the display of athletic bodies as they did in the original Olympic Games. Competing while clothed or wearing other protective equipment is cheating.

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/image..._14.130.12.jpg
The presence or not of uniforms is irrelevant to my views on the fundamental definition of a game and players. Go ahead and play nude if you like. I wouldn't consider that unsportsmanlike.
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Old 01-15-2020, 05:52 PM
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No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They're all cheating all the time.

The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period.

And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends.
Also, lets get rid of the forward pass in football. And dribbling in basketball.
  #56  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:07 PM
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Also, lets get rid of the forward pass in football. And dribbling in basketball.
Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else.
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  #57  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:46 PM
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Well, yeah. The way I see it, it's a game, so any help to the players is kibbitzing. You aren't allowed to receive instructions from coaches when you're playing chess or Jeopardy, so you shouldn't have access to the advice/instruction coaches when you're playing baseball, basketball, or football. It should be considered unsportsmanlike.
Or, you know, the coaches are part of the team. They all get championship rings if they win, not just the big boys on the field.
  #58  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:50 PM
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Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else.
Your views are eccentric and you should expect to be derided when expressing them.
  #59  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:10 PM
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No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They're all cheating all the time.
In your opinion, when did the modern era start and when did things closely match your ideal level of purity?
  #60  
Old 01-15-2020, 07:33 PM
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Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else.
No room for a "Team of Theseus"?
  #61  
Old 01-15-2020, 09:36 PM
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Acsenray, I don't know what you're talking about here, but the rest of the folks in this thread seem to be talking about sports. If you want to talk about some other sort of activity that works completely differently than every other sports activity in history, feel free to make your own thread about it.
  #62  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:28 AM
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I have some sympathy with what Acsenray is trying to say. I am also rather depressed about how players these days seem incapable of making decisions on the field for themselves. Sure, have the coaches and managers work with the players during the week to produce a game plan etc - but when the players step on the field, that should be it. There's a mental side to any tactical sport during play - why don't the players have to manage that? Take tennis - there the players are not allowed to receive in-game coaching, yet they go through all sorts of tortuous subterfuge to hide the fact that they are attempting to anyway.
The players on the field should be responsible for every decision made by their team in the course of the game. The current image of a coach prowling the sidelines continually barking instructions to players whilst being fed information from an army of assistant coaches is not particularly appealing.

I also agree about substitutions - pick your team, run what ya brung. Injury subs are fine (yes, it's not perfect and they will be abused - but it's still better than unlimited tactical substitutions). Players should be able to do all the skills required - sure, they will have their specialities, but they should have more than just that.

I'm not saying the current situation is cheating - this is not against the rules. But it is against the spirit how I think sport should be played.

Last edited by Wallaby; 01-16-2020 at 04:28 AM.
  #63  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:32 AM
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The thread had gotten a bit sidetracked but my $0.02:

Ultimately, games/sports are played for personal enjoyment and for the enjoyment of spectators. You can try to design some kind of purity standard to be considered a "real" sport or for a sport to be "properly" played, but, like a lot of purity standards, that misses the forest for the trees. As both players and fans, we currently don't mind coaches (or substitutions or whatever). And rather than some nebulous purity standard serving some non-existent ideal, it's the players and fans who should be served.

Actually, this whole importance ascribed to the proper play to approach games is also a bit of a modern fad. Games and their rules changed all the time in the past. I'm sure there were some people who didn't like it, but that never stopped any of those games from changing when a sufficient number of people agreed to all play the same way.

If you personally think games should be played a certain way, go nuts and insist on your own house rules when you are on your own home turf. But don't expect others to go along with it. This is how games have always been played/changed since time immemorial. It is, in one sense, the purest and most ancient way to play games.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 01-16-2020 at 07:32 AM.
  #64  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:40 AM
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I don't think MLB went down hard enough on the Astros. Every single player on the team who took part should get a one-year suspension. The manager should get a lifetime ban as should the GM. If Houston has to put major league uniforms on its AAA players for a year, so be it. Let them suck.
Munch makes a good point here:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=321

All of this only came to light because a player said something. If this had led to a bunch of players getting penalized or even banned from baseball, no other player would ever come forward. The guys you rat out might be your teammates one day.
  #65  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:42 AM
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I have to agree, and suspect it's because they just couldn't firmly sort out which players were more responsible than others.

AJ Hinch is probably done; I don't think he will ever manage in the big leagues again, even after his suspension. Managers are a dime a dozen these days. Luhnow will get another job. Taubman, who was suspended for a different reason, will never work in MLB again in any capacity.
I am disappointed that the owners didn't get hit harder.

The value of a championship to the owners is a lot more than 5 million dollars.

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 01-16-2020 at 07:44 AM.
  #66  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:47 AM
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More importantly, how does MLB prevent this in the future? I think each team puts a person in the press box, well away from the dugout. When he sees a play he thinks should be challenged, he hits a button that turns on a light in the dugout. No other form of communication should be allowed. You just can't have the replay screens in close proximity to the dugout or clubhouse.
This penalty is going to have a deterrent effect.

Electronic communication with team specific encryption, give the pitcher one of those secret service ear pieces.
  #67  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:52 AM
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Sounds like a whole load of nothing.

One team is trying to send secret signals, the other is trying to find out what they are. It is a public space and I couldn't care less. Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can't be intercepted if it bothers you so much.
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  #68  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:58 AM
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I don't know enough about the mechanics of the sport to understand the level of advantage knowing the pitch gives the batter. Is it a question of knowing when not to swing or does the batter have a measurable advantage if they know if the next pitch is a fastball or changeup?
There is a lot of rock paper scissor to pitching/hitting. If you tell batters what pitch is coming, it's not quite like telling you that the other guy is going to throw scissor but it's might be like telling you that the other dug is not going to throw rock.
  #69  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:11 AM
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Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can't be intercepted if it bothers you so much.
The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems.

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I don't know how people used to like this game before they developed the quantum entanglement brainwave implants. The catcher used to stick his fingers down to indicate the pitch instead of discussing strategy telepathically with the pitcher and manager. Ridiculous!
  #70  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:12 AM
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Sounds like a whole load of nothing.

One team is trying to send secret signals, the other is trying to find out what they are. It is a public space and I couldn't care less. Find a way to pass messages or agree tactics that can't be intercepted if it bothers you so much.
Currently it’s against the rules to send signals electronically. It’s also against the rules for the opponent to use electronic means to intercept and/or relay those signals. Using non-electronic methods of doing either is allowed. If you excuse electronic surveillance to steal signals but not the other way around then you’re giving one side an unfair disadvantage. I think that’s what went over your head here.

To repeat: sending secret signals and intercepting them is allowed. The use of electronics to assist that isn’t, on either side. The Astros used cameras to spy and gained an advantage against the rules and again the other side wasn’t allowed to use.

Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”?

Last edited by Atamasama; 01-16-2020 at 08:13 AM.
  #71  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:15 AM
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The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems.
And yet both baseball and football do include that as part of the sport. An important part that can mean the difference between winning and losing.
  #72  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:20 AM
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Rally basic question-- how does the catcher determine what pitch will work best and why can't the pitcher figure that out on his own?

Brian
The catcher has to know what pitch is coming otherwise you get a lot of passed balls and a lot of stolen bases. The communication goes from catcher to pitcher because a signal from the pitcher can be read by the batter and the pitcher might as well be yelling the signals to the catcher, and that sorta defeats the purpose.

Catchers can also relay signals from the manager and coach.

My catching coach believes its because:
Pitchers= the dumb
Catchers= the smart

This is not necessarily true but a catcher will frequently know the batters better than the pitcher, especially a relief pitcher.
  #73  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:36 AM
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One could argue that given the fact that this scandal involves potentially games in two different World Series (let's not just assume that Cora didn't take his tactics with him when he went to Boston), this could be the biggest MLB scandal since the 1919 Black Sox debacle.

Alex Cora, Joe Jackson and Pete Rose welcome you to eternal baseball hell.
I have argued that Pete Rose deserves to be inducted while he still breathes but I can see why opinions might differ.

I cannot understand the resistance to vacating the eternal ban on Joe Jackson. There is so much evidence that he was innocent that no court would ever convict. It's been almost a century.
  #74  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:42 AM
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Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”?
I think Novelty Bubble got it from the beginning but didn't really care.

From a baseball fan's perspective, it matters a great deal.

From the perspective of somebody who doesn't follow the sport, especially anybody from a culture that doesn't play baseball, this seems like the typical sports thing - life and death important to somebody who follows it but vaguely silly and unimportant to everybody else.

I'll admit, the whole thing (the cheating and the reactions to it) does seem vaguely ridiculous if I step back. I probably react the same way when I see engaged soccer fans get heated over dives or whatever. But that's what makes sports fun, and the reaction is very human - we get passionate about things that really don't matter in the grand scheme.
  #75  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:44 AM
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That would violate a basic rule in Major League Baseball: No electronic equipment allowed
Meh, they can make an exception. The ball field is covered with cameras from every angle, instant replay technology has been around for a long time. We are about to implement robo-umpiring. Players are using ipads to figure out how to handle their next at bat. We just don't want technology enhancing the player's natural ability.
  #76  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:48 AM
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Or college, or high school? Team sports have coaches, who also coach during a game. It's been that way for a very long time.
Or little league team for that matter. I distinctly remember yelling at the batter to run and stop looking at the ball on pretty much every hit.
  #77  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:53 AM
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No, no one does it this way, which is the source of my discontent and my general disdain for modern team sports generally. They're all cheating all the time.

The cheating (in my eyes) extends to substitutions. Substitutions should be allowed only in the case of injury, so no designated hitter, no relief pitchers, no pinch hitters, no pinch runners. Nine players, period.

And no platooning of offense, defense, and special teams in football. Eleven players start the game; the same eleven players stay on the field until it ends.
I'm sure there are people out there that think that we should allow 9 designated hitters in baseball.
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Old 01-16-2020, 08:56 AM
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Keep them or not. My views are not based upon notions of tradition or ancient practice, but rather my belief about the fundamental nature of a game. A game is played by its players and no one else.
Yeah but it looks like you want to limit the players too. You want football teams to run the same guys on offense and defense.
  #79  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:44 AM
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The game is supposed to be about hitting a ball and running, not developing uncrackable information transmission systems.
So hit the ball and run and stop whining.
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  #80  
Old 01-16-2020, 09:51 AM
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Currently it’s against the rules to send signals electronically. It’s also against the rules for the opponent to use electronic means to intercept and/or relay those signals. Using non-electronic methods of doing either is allowed. If you excuse electronic surveillance to steal signals but not the other way around then you’re giving one side an unfair disadvantage. I think that’s what went over your head here.

To repeat: sending secret signals and intercepting them is allowed. The use of electronics to assist that isn’t, on either side. The Astros used cameras to spy and gained an advantage against the rules and again the other side wasn’t allowed to use.

Do you now get why this is more than a “whole load of nothing”?
No, I understand that what they did is technically against the rules but I'm not able to consider it a big deal.

There was an analogous situation in the UK where a football team was sanctioned for spying on their opponents preparations for an upcoming game. I thought the reaction in that case was over the top as well. For some context, that fine is three times the size handed out to Bulgaria as a result of their racist abuse at a recent England game. Glad that football has it's priorities in order.
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  #81  
Old 01-16-2020, 01:37 PM
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No, I understand that what they did is technically against the rules but I'm not able to consider it a big deal.
It's not "technically" against the rules. It's in direct violation of a rule that was implemented specifically to prevent the thing they were doing.

The people in charge of baseball, and anyone who knows anything about baseball, knew that it was technically possible to view catchers signs from a center field camera and relay that information to the batter before the pitch. You don't need to be some sort of baseball savant or code breaking genius to figure out 1 finger is a fastball, 2 is a curve and 3 is a changeup. Nor do you need to be particularly sophisticated to figure out how to signal to the batter, the Astros were banging on a garbage can, for chrissake.

The man in charge of MLB, Rob Manfred, said to the teams, rather than force teams to make complex, constantly changing pitching signs part of the game, we will make it against the rules to do this nonsense. All you have to do to stay in the good is to NOT use cameras and monitors to decode pitching signs during the game. The Astros decided "Fuck you, Commissioner Manfred, I'm doing it anyway".

That's what makes it a big deal.
  #82  
Old 01-16-2020, 01:42 PM
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The man in charge of MLB, Rob Manfred, said to the teams, rather than force teams to make complex, constantly changing pitching signs part of the game, we will make it against the rules to do this nonsense. All you have to do to stay in the good is to NOT use cameras and monitors to decode pitching signs during the game. The Astros decided "Fuck you, Commissioner Manfred, I'm doing it anyway".

That's what makes it a big deal.
Let's kick them out of the AL West. The Mariners haven't been in the playoffs in a generation.
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Old 01-16-2020, 02:33 PM
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It's not "technically" against the rules. It's in direct violation of a rule that was implemented specifically to prevent the thing they were doing.
Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn't seem like the punishment fits the "crime" in this case.
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  #84  
Old 01-16-2020, 02:52 PM
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Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn't seem like the punishment fits the "crime" in this case.
It's a really big deal, like it or not, because it calls into question the results of championship games. The Astros won the 2017 World Series by the thinnest of margins. Did cheating help them? Perhaps it did, we can't know, but a professional sports league has to clamp down on perceptions thatthe championships are tainted.

MLB LOOKS BAD as a result of this. Looking good is kind of the whole point of an entertainment business.
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:01 PM
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Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn't seem like the punishment fits the "crime" in this case.
They broke a rule that was created/clarified that very year to stop the exact activity they were engaged in.

If it didn't impact the game, it's remarkably foolish to break such a specific rule to get no advantage over your opponent. If it did impact the game, it's a pretty big deal to gain an advantage in a way that was specifically ruled against by the commissioner of the league.
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:05 PM
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Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, Certainly doesn't seem like the punishment fits the "crime" in this case.
Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won't be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan.
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Old 01-16-2020, 03:08 PM
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Your views are eccentric and you should expect to be derided when expressing them.
If you put this on a t-shirt, I'll buy it.
  #88  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:19 PM
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It's a really big deal, like it or not,
I just can't summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright?
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:21 PM
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Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won't be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan.
And the lamentation of their women?

At least someone is retaining a sense of proportion.
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Old 01-16-2020, 04:39 PM
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I just can't summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright? 88
In most situations, it is impossible to steal the signs without some kind of camera assistance, since the sign stealer is at least 300 feet away from the signaler.

The exception is the somewhat uncommon situation (? maybe 10 percent of the at bats ?) where the batting team has a runner at second base. In those cases the catcher and pitcher switch to a more complex code.

Last edited by zimaane; 01-16-2020 at 04:40 PM.
  #91  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:02 PM
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Looks like Altuve was bugged up against Chapman in last year's play-offs.
  #92  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:48 PM
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Looks like Altuve was bugged up against Chapman in last year's play-offs.
To add - aw gee, Jose's so shy with the chest-bearing! (tee-hee-hee-hee!)

I think this could be really large, scary shit now.

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  #93  
Old 01-16-2020, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by zimaane View Post
In most situations, it is impossible to steal the signs without some kind of camera assistance, since the sign stealer is at least 300 feet away from the signaler.

The exception is the somewhat uncommon situation (? maybe 10 percent of the at bats ?) where the batting team has a runner at second base. In those cases the catcher and pitcher switch to a more complex code.
About 17%, in 2019. With a runner on second, batters had BA/OBP/SLG of .252/.336/.430 and with no runner on second they hit .252/.318/.435. So if teams are stealing signs with guys on second base, they’re mostly not doing a particularly good job.

Teams with a runner on second hit fewer home runs per plate appearance (.032 vs. .037) but hit sacrifice bunts or flies more than twice as often (.018 vs .007).
  #94  
Old 01-16-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Guest-starring: Id! View Post
Looks like Altuve was bugged up against Chapman in last year's play-offs.
My ten year old Yankee fan kid just saw this and now went from baseball fanatic to never wanting to watch again. "What's the point, if everyone is cheating? The whole season was a waste."
  #95  
Old 01-16-2020, 10:52 PM
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Yeah but it looks like you want to limit the players too. You want football teams to run the same guys on offense and defense.
Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes.
No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he's a slow, lumbering log who couldn't catch a bus.
Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they're the rules, they're the rules. It's just not how I like to see a game played.

(Correct - I don't like the DH, in case you're wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.)
  #96  
Old 01-17-2020, 02:15 PM
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Speaking as a life long Dodgers fan, I won't be satisfied until Minute Maid Park is torn down so that no two stones lay together, the ground salted so nothing grows, the players, owners and crew put to the sword and their families sold into bondage in Canaan.
Or at least until we make them change the stadium name back to Enron Field.
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Last edited by Moonchild; 01-17-2020 at 02:18 PM.
  #97  
Old 01-17-2020, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wallaby View Post
Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes.
No one lets the big HR hitters take time off duing the innings when his team are in the field, despite the fact he's a slow, lumbering log who couldn't catch a bus.
Would you like to see a baseball team made up of 9 heavy hitters who bat, and 9 whizz kids in the field? Look - if they're the rules, they're the rules. It's just not how I like to see a game played.

(Correct - I don't like the DH, in case you're wondering. Pitchers have 2 arms - they can swing a bat. And they did without any serious issues for nearly 100 years in pro ball.)
If you want to watch badly-performing athletes, just watch the minor leagues. Or the XFL in a little bit.
  #98  
Old 01-17-2020, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I just can't summon up any outrage over it. Stealing and relaying signs is not illegal but certain methods of doing so are? pretty thin gruel to me. If it were such a game-changer why not just ban the practice outright?
Well, it's legal to run the bases but not ride a bicycle. It's legal to use a glove but not a 20-foot-long pole with a net on it. It's legal to pitch the ball really hard but not use the spitball. Certain methods are always illegal, in all sports.

The reason it's legal to steal signs with your eyeballs is that it makes perfect sense to have players on the field be allowed to use their eyes and ears to ascertain what the opposing players intend to do. If the third base coach yells "Bunt! Bunt!" you wouldn't ask the opposing players to pretend they didn't hear that; well, if they give a sign the opposition knows means "bunt," why should they pretend they didn't see that?

Allowing the use of mechanical devices off the field of play removes that from the hands of the players and coaches and from their physical limitations.
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  #99  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Wallaby View Post
Yep - that would be good. Have all-rounders play the game rather than specialists. I want to watch players play all aspects of the game - not just one particular skill. Learn to tackle, rush AND block. Learn to catch AND defend passes.
You do realize that was how it was once played. If people had wanted to see it that way, the NFL wouldn't have changed the rule.

The results today would be lousy football, especially since no one has any experience being a two-way player.
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  #100  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RealityChuck View Post
You do realize that was how it was once played. If people had wanted to see it that way, the NFL wouldn't have changed the rule.

The results today would be lousy football, especially since no one has any experience being a two-way player.
Along with the fact that players are far bigger and faster, resulting in a much more punishing game. I doubt it's possible for players (at their current size) to have the stamina needed.
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