View Poll Results: Trump: Do you believe he misspoke, or is he backpedaling?
Trump misspoke and meant to say "Why wouldn't it be Russia?" 3 1.02%
He's backpedaling 280 94.92%
Other 12 4.07%
Voters: 295. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
I think it's very obvious he's backpedaling. I think he knows there's meddling, but I don't think he wants to accuse Putin to his face, with accompanying footage. I also don't think he expected Republicans to criticize him so hard.
There are accounts that he learned of the negative reaction on AF1 on his way back. He thought it went well and I think was quite surprised at the criticism, particularly from his pet toadie Hannity. He was like a toddler who pooped on the floor and points to it proudly and is surprised when he gets a spanking.
  #52  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:57 AM
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I also don't think he expected Republicans to criticize him so hard.
Mainly just the ones who aren't running for re-election, and have the liberty to speak the truth. The rest are keeping their heads down, waiting to be told he's become a serious liability and has to go, but not saying it themselves.

As for Trump, truth and lying are meaningless words to him. He genuinely does not know or care as long as he thinks he's "winning".
  #53  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:00 AM
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I will never buy the assertion that Trump doesn't know when he's lying.
  #54  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:01 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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It's beyond obvious that he was backpedaling, and I don't think this is a serious question.

That said, I don't think the initial statement was as depicted by many posters here either. You have to consider the following:
  • Trump tends to be very non-confrontational when in the presence of actual people even when he might be trashing them out of their presence. (E.g. he tends to say nice things about relations with Europe when in the physical presence of European leaders.)
  • Trump views the entire Russia spying issue almost entirely in the context of being a challenge to the legitimacy of his historic landslide victory, and is thus emotionally hostile to acknowledging it as a serious issue.
  • Trump is an idiot who does not understand the implications of things he says and how they will be perceived by more intelligent people (and by extension, by the public at large).
IMO it's a mistake to look any further than the above. He was asked about the issue with Putin standing right there, and he blurted out something that seemed to his semi-coherent mind to make some sort of sense, would not embarrass Putin, and was in line with his feelings.

It's been reported that Trump was initially very pleased with his performance and had a huge epiphany when he found out how it went over. This was not some sort of big strategic move here.
  #55  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:03 AM
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After almost two years, hasn't it become painfully obvious who and what this man is?
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  #56  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
It's beyond obvious that he was backpedaling, and I don't think this is a serious question.

That said, I don't think the initial statement was as depicted by many posters here either. You have to consider the following:
  • Trump tends to be very non-confrontational when in the presence of actual people even when he might be trashing them out of their presence. (E.g. he tends to say nice things about relations with Europe when in the physical presence of European leaders.)
  • Trump views the entire Russia spying issue almost entirely in the context of being a challenge to the legitimacy of his historic landslide victory, and is thus emotionally hostile to acknowledging it as a serious issue.
  • Trump is an idiot who does not understand the implications of things he says and how they will be perceived by more intelligent people (and by extension, by the public at large).
IMO it's a mistake to look any further than the above. He was asked about the issue with Putin standing right there, and he blurted out something that seemed to his semi-coherent mind to make some sort of sense, would not embarrass Putin, and was in line with his feelings.

It's been reported that Trump was initially very pleased with his performance and had a huge epiphany when he found out how it went over. This was not some sort of big strategic move here.
There's another major factor: Trump has gotten used to having his supporters believe anything he says and takes it for granted.
  #57  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Trump is an idiot who does not understand the implications of things he says and how they will be perceived by more intelligent people...
Turns out he's pretty sure "many people at the higher ends of intelligence" loved his press conference performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtura
I don't think he wants to accuse Putin to his face...
He won't even accuse Putin from thousands of miles away! Sitting in the White House yesterday, he read his script saying that he totally believes his intelligence teams' assertions that Russia/Putin did it, and then felt compelled to add "or it could have been other people."
  #58  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:24 AM
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It was neither.

It was a desperate figleaf for the Republicans in Congress. And it wasn't his idea. His babysitters made him do it after changing his diapers.
  #59  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:36 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Machine Elf View Post
Many people at the higher ends of intelligence believe he's the greatest president since Benjamin Franklin. IOW, just standard Trump jive.
  #60  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:42 AM
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There's another major factor: Trump has gotten used to having his supporters believe anything he says and takes it for granted.
Another major factor: Trump is a coward and would rather trash America than say something negative about Putin while he's four feet away.

Supposedly, Trump gave Rosenstein the green light to announce the Russian indictments before the meeting (Rosenstein offered to wait until Monday) because Trump thought it would strengthen his hand. Holy shit, Trump got rolled so hard in that meeting that it boggles the mind to think what a "weak hand" would have looked like. We'd probably be annexed by now. I guess he did get that great offer from Putin to help investigate the twelve indicted Russians -- on the condition that Russia could also investigate any suspicious Americans.

Last edited by Jophiel; 07-18-2018 at 10:44 AM.
  #61  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:42 AM
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It was neither.

It was a desperate figleaf for the Republicans in Congress. And it wasn't his idea. His babysitters made him do it after changing his diapers.
This. They probably didn't tell him he did something wrong, though-that way leads to unemployment. They likely told him that if he reverses what he said it'll shut people up.
  #62  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:01 AM
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He did what he always seems to do...ignore his advisers and just say what pops into his head without regard to consequences, which are for lesser men. He probably is surprised at the backlash, since it's all part of what he's been saying all along wrt the CT and deep state horseshit. He most likely was expecting the liberals to bash him and his own side to lionize him for telling it like it is. Now that this isn't going to plan he's got some lame ass 'I misspoke' bullshit going, but I watched the clip where he walked this all back and you could tell he didn't believe a word of it and this was simply to appease the folks on his side he angered.
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  #63  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:09 AM
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Interviewers should sit down with people like Newt Gingrich, watch the tape from the walkback and then point blank ask them if they think it was believable. I'd love to see their answers/reactions.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-18-2018 at 11:09 AM.
  #64  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:21 AM
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I'd like to ask the one person who clicked Trump misspoke and meant to say "Why wouldn't it be Russia?" whether he watched the actual statement on TV or 'Net?

The words were not uttered out of context by a robotic voice. Anyone who watched and heard the statement and still think it was a slip-of-tongue is .,.. well, what's the joke? Tell the bartender to give me one of whatever he's been drinking too much of.
  #65  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:49 AM
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That person misclicked.
  #66  
Old 07-18-2018, 11:52 AM
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Or maybe they were just fucking with everyone. I can't recall the last time the board was so unified in agreement on a single topic.
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  #67  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:05 PM
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This is not to give him a pass. It's not "Oh, it's okay because he doesn't know what he is saying", it's "He doesn't know what he is saying, so pretty much disregard anything he says. It's all just crap"
And yet you posted one of his tweets in the pit earlier today... And seem to support him being president. The mind boggles.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 07-18-2018 at 12:07 PM.
  #68  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
  • Trump tends to be very non-confrontational when in the presence of actual people even when he might be trashing them out of their presence. (E.g. he tends to say nice things about relations with Europe when in the physical presence of European leaders.)
Tell that to Angela Merkel, Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush,...

I'm sure Trump is very happy that some people think he's polite and statesmanlike, but that don't make it so.
  #69  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:22 PM
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I don't know how anyone can listen to what he was saying at the 'summit', hearing his tone and inflection, and possibly think that he absolutely didn't mean to say "would".
  #70  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
It's beyond obvious that he was backpedaling, and I don't think this is a serious question.

That said, I don't think the initial statement was as depicted by many posters here either. You have to consider the following:
[LIST][*]Trump tends to be very non-confrontational when in the presence of actual people even when he might be trashing them out of their presence. (E.g. he tends to say nice things about relations with Europe when in the physical presence of European leaders.)
Except that that isn't true. That statement is either deluded as all fucking hell or is just straight up spreading propaganda, IMHO.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-18-2018 at 12:29 PM.
  #71  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:30 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
Tell that to Angela Merkel, Hillary Clinton, Jeb Bush,...
Bush and Clinton have no connection to this, in that he was debating them at the time. But Merkel is one of the European leaders I was thinking of. From Business Insider
Quote:
President Donald Trump on Wednesday claimed to have a "very, very good" with German Chancellor Angela Merkel just hours after causing an uproar at the NATO summit in Brussels when he said Germany was "controlled" by Russia.

"We had a great meeting discussing military expenditure," Trump said in front of TV cameras. "We're talking about trade. We have a very, very good relationship with the chancellor. We have a tremendous relationship with Germany."

Directly addressing Merkel, who was sitting next to him, Trump added, "You've had tremendous success, and I congratulate you."
I've seen media commentary about this tendency somewhere or other, but didn't find it in a brief search just now.

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  #72  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:20 PM
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After almost two years, hasn't it become painfully obvious who and what this man is?
I was reading Spy Magazine in the late 80s. It's been painfully obvious what the deal is for at least 30 years.
  #73  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:21 PM
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Voted "backpedaling."
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  #74  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:32 PM
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That person misclicked.
The ballot was confusing!
  #75  
Old 07-18-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
And yet you posted one of his tweets in the pit earlier today... And seem to support him being president. The mind boggles.
I laughed at one of his tweets. And I don't support him as President. I didn't vote for him. I just enjoy laughing at the inanities that come out of his talk hole.

I thought you had me on ignore anyway?
  #76  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:39 PM
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I went with "other", because he's not backpedaling, not really.

The way I see it: he's an idiot, and he thought he did a great job in Helsinki and everything was just fine as usual (in his mind). Then he got back to the US, and a bunch of Republican senators and other grown-ups immediately sat little Donnie down and told him he just screwed the pooch big-time, and he was going to have to go in front of the cameras and say these exact words to try to patch things up, and they would hustle him out afterwards with no questions.

So, he's not backpedaling, this is totally begrudging on his part. He barely even managed that statement, he wanted to go off-script so badly. He did screw up the statement in part anyway. "Yeah, maybe Russia, could be other people too."

I don't get how there are people, like my own father, who are blind to the fact that he absolutely cannot speak ill of Russia, and there is something beyond suspicious about that.
  #77  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:51 PM
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Backpedaling and lying, though lying through a script.
If Trump's nose grew an inch for every lie, we could get to the ISS by climbing it to orbit.
  #78  
Old 07-18-2018, 02:52 PM
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The replay of Trump's answer clearly pronounced 'would' on purpose ... no doubt about it, but being a room with Putin for two hours or more can do that one's mind from an evil ruler of his people known to kill his adversaries.

What would you do call Putin a liar to his face?

They say Trump got very mad on Air Force One on the way home ... I suspect he saw and heard his mistake and corrected it a day later.

I bet he really feels bad being called the worse president in modern history.

I still like him ... better than Hillary that's for sure
  #79  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:14 PM
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I am with whoever commented that Trump never knows what he will say until he hears himself say it. I really wonder whether he is seriously suffering senile dementia. Backpedaling of course, but that might be the least of it.
  #80  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:33 PM
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What would you do call Putin a liar to his face?
There's this whole discipline of statecraft called "diplomacy" meant to deal with exactly that kind of thing. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what diplomacy calls for when a foreign leader blatantly lies to you, but I'm sure there's a bit of middle ground between "calling putin a liar" and "saying there's no reason to take your own intelligence sources seriously".

Quote:
They say Trump got very mad on Air Force One on the way home ... I suspect he saw and heard his mistake and corrected it a day later.
You mean after he reasserted his main point in his Hannity interview? Or when he went back to rejecting the conclusions of his intelligence today? Are you the guy who voted "misspoke"?! Did you notice how your fellow conservatives in the thread don't think this is a serious question, because it's so obvious that this is backpedaling? Did you actually read his statements? "Would" makes no goddamn sense in context. "Wouldn't" does.

Quote:
I bet he really feels bad being called the worse president in modern history.
Well, at the end of the day, he's still rich beyond my wildest dreams. He could retire right now, buy an island, and spend all day paying prostitutes to piss on him. But I guess those of us who merely have to contend with making rent wouldn't know anything about how awful it is to be the worst leader of the free world in a long time.

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I still like him ... better than Hillary that's for sure
Yeah, it really would have sucked to have a president who knows the first fucking thing about statescraft at a time like this, huh?
  #81  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:38 PM
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Bush and Clinton have no connection to this, in that he was debating them at the time.
What has that got to do with it? There's no rule saying you can't be polite to people while you're debating them. Until Trump, it was expected that you would.

Quote:
But Merkel is one of the European leaders I was thinking of. From Business Insider

(quote deleted)

I've seen media commentary about this tendency somewhere or other, but didn't find it in a brief search just now.
I was remembering this incident with Merkel at the G7 summit:
Quote:
Mr Trump reportedly agreed to sign the agreement, before another tense exchange took place between him and Ms Merkel.

“Trump was sitting there with his arms crossed clearly not liking the fact that he felt like they were ganging up on him. He eventually agreed to sign it,” Mr Bremmer told CBS This Morning on Wednesday.

“He stood up, he put his hand in his pocket and he took two Starburst candies out, threw them on the table and said: ‘here, Angela, don’t say I never give you anything.’”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8409201.html
  #82  
Old 07-18-2018, 03:49 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Here's another example:
Quote:
Standing just a few feet away from the Chinese president, Trump declared that the two nations “must immediately address the unfair trade practices” that drive the trade deficit, along with barriers to market access, forced technology transfers and intellectual property theft.

“But I don’t blame China,” Trump said to audible gasps from some of the business leaders and journalists from both countries in The Great Hall of the People. “After all, who can blame a country for being able to take advantage of another country for the benefit of its citizens?” he asked, to cheers from some of the Chinese contingent. “I give China great credit.”

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said later that Trump’s comment had been “a little bit tongue-in-cheek” but that it nonetheless carried “a lot of truth.”

Either way, it was a far cry from Trump’s inflammatory campaign rhetoric on China. Night after night at rallies across the country, he portrayed himself as a hard-nosed negotiator who would hold other countries accountable for disadvantaging American workers.

“We can’t continue to allow China to rape our country and that’s what they’re doing,” he said in Indiana in May 2016. “It’s the greatest theft in the history of the world.”
  #83  
Old 07-18-2018, 04:09 PM
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As of now only one person voted "misspoke." That person obviously didn't see Trump's original remarks, or doesn't understand English, or is Donald Trump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet
I'll be honest, I'm not sure what diplomacy calls for when a foreign leader blatantly lies to you, but I'm sure there's a bit of middle ground between "calling putin a liar" and "saying there's no reason to take your own intelligence sources seriously".
The thing is that a real President would never have asked Putin the question in the first place. He would have demanded Putin stop, and hinted at retaliation if Putin failed to stop. The Russian cyberattacks are matters of fact and the plainness of that fact should simply be the official American position.

"Diplomacy" does not mean "sucking dick." Sometimes you have to be blunt. When Kennedy met Khruschev in Vienna, that was not on the surface any different from Trump meeting Putin. Two leaders of rival nations met to talk. The different is that Kennedy was there to represent the USA. When Khruschev refused to be reasonable about Berlin, Kennedy said "Then, Mr. Chairman, there will be war." You have to be tough sometimes.

Kennedy did not threaten war because he wanted war. He threatened it because if he did not, the Soviets would have assumed the West didn't have the nads, and would have taken what they wanted until there WAS war. Trump's grovelling to Putin will now embolden the Russians. The US midterm elections will be attacked ferociously. Hacking and cyberattacks will flourish. Social media will be flooded with Russian disinformation. Other Western countries will be attacked in the same way.
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  #84  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:43 PM
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There's this whole discipline of statecraft called "diplomacy" meant to deal with exactly that kind of thing. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what diplomacy calls for when a foreign leader blatantly lies to you, but I'm sure there's a bit of middle ground between "calling putin a liar" and "saying there's no reason to take your own intelligence sources seriously"
God, yes. But Trump has gutted the diplomatic corps both intentionally and through attrition as skilled career professionals leave the State Department because they see the writing on the wall.

Trump wants to pretend that he's a real tough guy, but Trump's version of being tough is to stiff a drywall contractor and then threaten to sue with his army of lawyers if the guy complains. That and calling people names on Twitter. Putin's not impressed by that. To Putin, Trump is just another soft, aging, obsequious oligarch with a trophy wife and Putin already has tons of those guys under his thumb. Trump was outclassed by a mile from the start and it's professional malpractice that his staff even let him go through with the meeting.

Last edited by Jophiel; 07-18-2018 at 06:43 PM.
  #85  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:05 PM
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We're up to two votes for "misspoke". Would either of those voters like to reveal themselves?
  #86  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:07 PM
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I am watching Anderson Cooper. The chyron is "We'll leave the gaslight on for you, part 7". I have no problem at all believing that Russia has some seriously bad kompromat on him.
  #87  
Old 07-18-2018, 08:31 PM
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He is backpedaling. This misspoke stuff is nonsense. Still he is doing an extraordinary job as President. If an establishment approved President of any party said the same words, NPR and CNN, etc would have seen his words for what they were: ho hum formalities. Instead, they need to pounce on him for something, anything: god forbid the sheeple stop being useful idiots an start thinking about the issues with some semblence of logic and reason.
  #88  
Old 07-18-2018, 09:03 PM
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If there was a reverse Tour de France, he would have won it.
I wised I'd posted this, so hard!
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:50 PM
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I'm not really sure I can call it backpedalling, either, because that implies he changed what he said. Instead, he just rephrased the statement in other terms. He is definitely lying about having misspoke, though.
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Old 07-19-2018, 10:31 AM
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Trump often toggles back and forth, on the trade question, between 'but it's not X [foreign country]'s fault, it's the fault of weak and stupid previous American leaders' but then shortly after saying things which do seem to blame the foreign countries/leaders. He's used both rhetorical tacks when speaking to adoring crowds, tweeting, and in press conferences at home or abroad. Although it doesn't seem he's used the second tack much in proximity to Xi, only sometimes in proximity to allied leaders.

It doesn't really apply either way with Putin since there's such a limited trading relationship. Which is another possible way to understand Trump's attitude toward Putin and Russia besides
-'kompromat' (I don't buy it based on evidence so far)
-willing Agent Orange (same)
-Trump's vanity about the 2016 election, can't separate in his mind (for long) the fact of Russian meddling v the claim he only won *because* of Russian meddling. (definitely a big part of it)
-general affinity for 'strong men' (another part of it)

The other difference is trade. IMO Trump has no real policy views besides 'what will bring adulation to Trump' on most issues. But trade is one of the exceptions. I think he really believes trade agreements heretofore have worked against US interests, and has been saying that for decades, where his views on most other things have been all over the place (eg. in favor of nationalized health care at one point, or at least allowed his ghost writers to say he was, etc). Trump makes and has always made simplistic arguments in favor of his position on trade, and I don't personally much buy the trade-skeptic view as a practical policy at this point* even from people who make better arguments. The point is that Trump's view of 'foes' based on trade is long standing. He mutes personal criticism of Xi more than say Merkel or Trudeau because of his affinity for 'strong', and views those refined Western leaders as 'weak'. But with Putin and Russia there is no real basis for conflict based on trade, because there's so little trade (especially with US sanctions Trump might not like but hasn't been able to change).

Anyway obviously Trump back pedaled on the 'would'/'wouldn't' thing. Maybe I didn't read the thread carefully enough to see, but I wonder the explanation of the couple of votes saying Trump actually meant at the time to say 'I don't a reason why it wouldn't be Russia'. Those people must have misspoken in their answer to the question.

*I think it has a little more validity on a hindsight basis, but lots of 'toothpaste already out of the tube' aspects to it. Maybe so swiftly embracing China as part of the world trading community was a mistake, but it's done. I don't see much prospect now of reversing the damage to various US industries, communities etc with protectionism as opposed to not having opened as much to China in the first place. And it's strategically foolish to make trade a multi-front 'war' against allies at the same time.

Last edited by Corry El; 07-19-2018 at 10:33 AM.
  #91  
Old 07-19-2018, 11:01 AM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
As I write, 67 votes have been cast. One has been for "Trump misspoke". I'd like to hear from that person.
The number for Trump backpedaling has multiplied by 3.5... but the number for Trump misspeaking has gone up by 100%!!!!! Obviously, 100 is much bigger than 3.5, so clearly the Red Wave against Fake News is rising!!! #MAGA
  #92  
Old 07-19-2018, 11:46 AM
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susan susan is offline
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Other. The art of the deal is to tell people whatever will get your deal done. "Lying," not "backpedaling."
  #93  
Old 07-19-2018, 02:30 PM
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Add that he seemed to be adding a personal comment about it when he spoke, people usually don't mess up such personal comments in this way. Also sayign why wouldn't it be Russia really does not make that much sense in that context.
Apparently, the Republicans who are satisfied with his "clarification" haven't really thought through what that means. (Big surprise there.) If he indeed meant to say "I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be [Russia who interfered], then he believes that they must have had pretty good reasons for doing so that no one else would. It's a fact that Putin hates Hillary and Putin said during the meeting that he wanted Trump to win. So Trump is admitting that Russia and only Russia had reasons to interfere and that they did so to help him get elected.
  #94  
Old 07-19-2018, 05:54 PM
Airman Doors, USAF Airman Doors, USAF is online now
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I honestly believe that he said what he initially said thinking that he wouldn’t get any significant backlash from it. He learned early on how easy it was to undermine his opponents and he’s been laying the groundwork for his statements for a long time, so he never expected the reaction he got. He’s been undermining the FBI and intelligence agencies from day one, this was the logical endpoint for him.

Imagine his surprise when the reactions he got were not anything close to what he expected them to be. The formula had always worked before. Now he’s trapped into walking it back, and he doesn’t know how to do that because he never has before, so he keeps trying to work the angle by throwing in some caveats so he can later declare that the formula still works.

The same among us see it for what it is from the start. He only needs to fool the insane.
  #95  
Old 07-19-2018, 10:57 PM
Cumberdale Cumberdale is offline
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He didn't misspeak because he has said basically the same thing many times since his election.
  #96  
Old 07-21-2018, 08:49 AM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
After almost two years, hasn't it become painfully obvious who and what this man is?
For some people, no.

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Originally Posted by Mr Quatro View Post
I still like him ... better than Hillary that's for sure
QED
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