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  #551  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:38 PM
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Remember that your base and buildings have a lot of thermal mass, so it'll take a while to cool things down. I monitor the liquid temperature to be sure they're working: if the liquid comes out of the radiant section as the temperature of the surroundings, then it's working (that means the liquid absorbed the heat from the environment). It may only tick down a tenth of a degree at a time, but over several cycles it should do the trick. And once it's down to the target temperature, it'll take very little cooling power to keep it there.

The problem with heat isn't so much that there's a lot of it; it's that it builds up continuously and keeps going up unless you take active measures. You might go for hundreds of cycles before it's a problem, but you have to do something eventually.
  #552  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:37 PM
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Yeah, I think the problem I was having earlier was running the pipes through the tiles underneath my water caches. I ran the radiant pipes directly through the water and it is having more of an effect. I'm used a mixed system in this base. I'm piping it freezing oxygen (since I need to make oxygen anyway) and then using radiance for the water caches. It is working very well, and my main base is sitting at about 24-26 degrees. I screwed up with the pipes though and made them copper instead of gold. I need to rebuild them at some point but it is working at the moment so I'm leaving it be until there's nothing else more critical to fix.
  #553  
Old 09-07-2019, 03:00 AM
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Were they insulated tiles? They'll transfer very little heat. Regular tiles are ok, as long as you don't mind cooling the whole thing--but that might be wasteful compared to just cooling the contents.

Gold vs. copper shouldn't make much difference unless you're short of one. I've got two gold volcanoes, and thus a nigh-infinite supply of gold, albeit a very high temperature supply.

I'm still thinking through my next big project. The only issue is that I don't think I can do it without exploits. I want to build a regolith smelter.

There are some parts that I know how to do. I use a glass forge to output glass into the coolant loop of a metal refinery. Yes, the coolant will be liquid glass. From there, it will cycle through the refinery, and then a diamond pit in vacuum. The pit heats up to ~1400 C, which is when regolith melts. It maintains that temperature via cycling the metal refinery, which heats up a batch of glass each time it runs. I drop more regolith into the pit via a conveyor system.

The incoming regolith will be pre-heated via heat exchanger from the outgoing magma. Magma has much higher heat capacity than regolith, so it's easy to heat the incoming stuff with almost no input from the refinery.

The exploity stuff:
- I can't pump magma back out by normal means, since any pump immersed in it will melt. There's a way to position a pump such that it's outside the pumping volume, but still works. It's kinda silly, though.
- The outgoing magma needs to stay liquid in the pipe while it's heating up the incoming regolith. But that will break the pipe. Unless--and this is also silly--the pipe contains <1 kg of liquid. In that case, for some reason liquids can stay liquid even below their melting points. I can use a liquid valve to set a limit here.
- The whole thing needs to take place in a vacuum, but the automation devices require a power input, and this will overheat even thermium buildings eventually. It's possible to position a bit of liquid on the edge of the device to help wick away heat to something that can then carry it away. But again, this is exploity.

I don't mind setups that don't make sense, as long as it seems like the designers intended for it to be that way. But that doesn't feel like it's the case here.
  #554  
Old 09-07-2019, 07:30 AM
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Were they insulated tiles? They'll transfer very little heat. Regular tiles are ok, as long as you don't mind cooling the whole thing--but that might be wasteful compared to just cooling the contents.

Gold vs. copper shouldn't make much difference unless you're short of one. I've got two gold volcanoes, and thus a nigh-infinite supply of gold, albeit a very high temperature supply.

I'm still thinking through my next big project. The only issue is that I don't think I can do it without exploits. I want to build a regolith smelter.

There are some parts that I know how to do. I use a glass forge to output glass into the coolant loop of a metal refinery. Yes, the coolant will be liquid glass. From there, it will cycle through the refinery, and then a diamond pit in vacuum. The pit heats up to ~1400 C, which is when regolith melts. It maintains that temperature via cycling the metal refinery, which heats up a batch of glass each time it runs. I drop more regolith into the pit via a conveyor system.

The incoming regolith will be pre-heated via heat exchanger from the outgoing magma. Magma has much higher heat capacity than regolith, so it's easy to heat the incoming stuff with almost no input from the refinery.

The exploity stuff:
- I can't pump magma back out by normal means, since any pump immersed in it will melt. There's a way to position a pump such that it's outside the pumping volume, but still works. It's kinda silly, though.
- The outgoing magma needs to stay liquid in the pipe while it's heating up the incoming regolith. But that will break the pipe. Unless--and this is also silly--the pipe contains <1 kg of liquid. In that case, for some reason liquids can stay liquid even below their melting points. I can use a liquid valve to set a limit here.
- The whole thing needs to take place in a vacuum, but the automation devices require a power input, and this will overheat even thermium buildings eventually. It's possible to position a bit of liquid on the edge of the device to help wick away heat to something that can then carry it away. But again, this is exploity.

I don't mind setups that don't make sense, as long as it seems like the designers intended for it to be that way. But that doesn't feel like it's the case here.
For me that would be too gamey.

I don't recall now, but I think they were regular tiles. It would cool them but it took an exceptionally long time for very little effect. With the new setup, my entire base is very cool. At one point larges parts were getting blue, so I was worried I had gone too far! But it has kind of stablized in a nice yellowish-green (mainly green). I've built two steam turbines with success in this current run! I didn't flood my base with steam this time, so I think I have the transition to steam nailed down. My understanding of how to move energy is complete (?). My next challenge is glass and space exploration! Oh and not staying up until 3 AM playing ONI. That would be a good challenge too.

Have you tried different worlds yet? Have you tried the hardest world?
  #555  
Old 09-07-2019, 07:37 AM
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One of the main things I've done differently this game is I only make refined metals to order instead of making a stockpile. This greatly reduces heat produced.
  #556  
Old 09-07-2019, 09:31 AM
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The problem with heat isn't so much that there's a lot of it; it's that it builds up continuously and keeps going up unless you take active measures. You might go for hundreds of cycles before it's a problem, but you have to do something eventually.
Kind of like heat IRL. That's why the game needs things like weezeworts and thermos whatevermagigs to shit all over the laws of thermodynamics.


I've only now got the heat under control in my base. Finally figured out how to set up working aquatuner loops to bring my base, in particular the farms, down to reasonable temperatures.
  #557  
Old 09-07-2019, 03:13 PM
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I've only now got the heat under control in my base. Finally figured out how to set up working aquatuner loops to bring my base, in particular the farms, down to reasonable temperatures.
Neat! Are you using them in combination with steam turbines? Also, are you using super coolant? Aquatuners are almost energy-neutral using super coolant; that is to say, the energy you get from the steam turbine's waste heat just about matches what the aquatuner needs. So, basically free heat deletion, though you need space missions to gather the materials.

The game clearly needs some means of removing heat, since it's a tiny closed system. They haven't provided vacuum radiators, which would be the "real life" way of doing things. So I don't have any problems using wheezeworts and the like even though they're unrealistic.
  #558  
Old 09-07-2019, 03:24 PM
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Have you tried different worlds yet? Have you tried the hardest world?
I haven't! That sounds like a good idea.

I see that Oasisse and Aridio show a "slim" survival chance, which seems to be the minimum. Aridio says it has abundant resources and it's mostly temperature that's the problem. I feel like I've solved the heat problem, so maybe that's not so much a challenge for me now. I think I'll try Oasisse, then.

I guess I could crank up the other difficulty settings as well, but I think I'll leave them be for now. The care packages in particular I want to leave on. Not so much for the resources, but for the critters and seeds. I don't like finding that I can't farm/ranch something because I got unlucky and all the critters of some type died out.
  #559  
Old 09-07-2019, 05:04 PM
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I haven't! That sounds like a good idea.

I see that Oasisse and Aridio show a "slim" survival chance, which seems to be the minimum. Aridio says it has abundant resources and it's mostly temperature that's the problem. I feel like I've solved the heat problem, so maybe that's not so much a challenge for me now. I think I'll try Oasisse, then.

I guess I could crank up the other difficulty settings as well, but I think I'll leave them be for now. The care packages in particular I want to leave on. Not so much for the resources, but for the critters and seeds. I don't like finding that I can't farm/ranch something because I got unlucky and all the critters of some type died out.
Yeah, exactly. Somethings are world locked too. This gives you some possibility to get them.

I'm very interested to hear about your experience on Oasisse.

I'm still playing on Ocania. I think my next game will be the forest world (Verdenta I think?).
  #560  
Old 09-07-2019, 05:35 PM
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Even getting through the first 5 cycles on Oasisse has been a challenge! There is no algae in the starting biome, and you're trapped by hard-to-dig granite. There's no default oxygen production! I just finished enough research to build an electrolyzer, though, just in the nick of time--my dupes were out of breath all the time from sucking near-vacuum.

I leveled my dupes up, too, so now I can dig out of the biome. We'll see what other difficulties await!
  #561  
Old 09-07-2019, 07:26 PM
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25 cycles in and still doing ok, but it's sloooow going. I've got food (via mealwood and hexalent) and oxygen (via electrolysis), but energy is hard to come by.

For the time being, I'm sticking with the mousewheel and occasionally the wood burner. There are no coal deposits within easy reach, nor are there hatches I can farm. I've uncovered one geyser so far, which has hot (but clean) water, so that's convenient, but no natural gas or anything so far. And I'm constantly blocked by hard-to-dig stuff.

So it's definitely a challenge, though I'm making progress. I'd really like to get my energy production up, but don't yet see a way. Arbor trees worked well on my last base but I need a big polluted water source, and don't have one yet.
  #562  
Old 09-07-2019, 07:44 PM
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That's insane!

And I thought I had problems with one of my volcanoes running out of energy. Basically, all the magma has cooled down to 126 degrees. So I need to send some dupes in to clear it out.
  #563  
Old 09-07-2019, 10:18 PM
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All right; cycle 50.

My dupes are hurt. But I think they'll get better. I found a copper volcano, which is nice since it means I can avoid a metal refinery for the time being, but I have no atmo suits yet (they need copper themselves, not to mention a better oxygen supply and power). So my dupes have been braving the volcano naked and suffering for it.

They've also been trying to clear out the water geyser, which I'm going to need pretty soon (there are only tiny pockets of free water on the map, polluted included). It's hot and they're scalding themselves there as well.

So they're injured a lot, but on the upside I finally built a hydrogen generator to do something with the excess hydrogen that I've so far been letting rise to the top of my base. I still need to automate it properly so as not to waste the hydrogen, but I'll take what I can get for now.

Thankfully, base heating is not yet a problem and it looks like I'll have time to do something about it before it's an issue.

I see an oil reservoir nearby that I can tap into. Once I do that, energy shouldn't be a problem. But I need the atmo suits first.

Another problem is that there's no iron and very little gold amalgam so far. So all my buildings overheat at 75, which isn't much. But there is a little gold and if I'm careful there's probably enough for the critical parts, at least until I discover iron.
  #564  
Old 09-07-2019, 11:00 PM
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All right; cycle 50.

My dupes are hurt. But I think they'll get better. I found a copper volcano, which is nice since it means I can avoid a metal refinery for the time being, but I have no atmo suits yet (they need copper themselves, not to mention a better oxygen supply and power). So my dupes have been braving the volcano naked and suffering for it.

They've also been trying to clear out the water geyser, which I'm going to need pretty soon (there are only tiny pockets of free water on the map, polluted included). It's hot and they're scalding themselves there as well.

So they're injured a lot, but on the upside I finally built a hydrogen generator to do something with the excess hydrogen that I've so far been letting rise to the top of my base. I still need to automate it properly so as not to waste the hydrogen, but I'll take what I can get for now.

Thankfully, base heating is not yet a problem and it looks like I'll have time to do something about it before it's an issue.

I see an oil reservoir nearby that I can tap into. Once I do that, energy shouldn't be a problem. But I need the atmo suits first.

Another problem is that there's no iron and very little gold amalgam so far. So all my buildings overheat at 75, which isn't much. But there is a little gold and if I'm careful there's probably enough for the critical parts, at least until I discover iron.
It sounds like a pretty extreme challenge. Far beyond my current skills for sure.

For the first time, I have transit tubes and comfy beds! Both are so valuable. The beds giving a passive heal takes a lot of pressure off the hospital. And transit tubes means my dupes spend more time working and less time travelling. Although I still have the "long commutes warning". Sheesh, what do you need to do to get rid of that? This game needs teleporters. Maybe in a DLC.
  #565  
Old 09-08-2019, 12:48 AM
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For the first time, I have transit tubes and comfy beds! Both are so valuable. The beds giving a passive heal takes a lot of pressure off the hospital.
Huh! I didn't realize the comfy bed gave a health regen boost as well. Good to know!

I'm at cycle 75. This is the ONI I remember from the beginning ! For every problem I solve, more arise. It looks like heat is going to be a problem sooner rather than later.

Fortunately, I just ran across a leaky oil fissure, which should supply me with my energy needs. I need to build up the infrastructure for it, but that's looking promising at least.

I also just finished an atmo suit dock, which had a prerequisite of a self-contained electrolyzer system. I needed to do that anyway, but I'd have waited longer if it weren't that everything outside my main biome is hot as hell and unbreathable.

The heat is going to kill my crops if I don't do something soon, but I really need some iron (steel, actually) to build my standard cooling loop. I still haven't found any. Gotta look farther afield, apparently. I haven't found an ice biome at all, in fact.
  #566  
Old 09-08-2019, 02:32 AM
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Cycle 100! Not much changed since last time. I'm edging towards sustainability, but I still have to face the heat problem. I put it off for a bit by sealing off my base but it's still going to be a problem, and I still don't have an ice biome to tap.

I forgot how inefficient the petroleum generator was. The leaky oil fissure isn't quite enough to power my base. So, still using manual generators. I think I will have to tap into the oil reservoir after all (using an oil well). That should give me enough margin for my other plans.

I did at least run across some small iron deposits. It's not much, but I don't need a lot. Just enough for an aquatuner and a few other items. Then I can build a steam turbine/aquatuner loop and stave off the heat. At least my dupes are no longer always in the hospital burn ward since building the atmo suit dock.

I'm sticking with just 4 dupes for the time being. I was careful with the selection and made sure they had a broad set of skills. I chose the +1/+1/+1 combo for each one to maximize the morale boost.
  #567  
Old 09-08-2019, 06:27 AM
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Cycle 150.

Pulled off a huge coup--two hydrogen geysers right next to each other. This was a huge benefit and means I can actually get ahead of things, power-wise. I'm also close to finished with the pre-space research, so I'll have an extra dupe from now on. I had occasionally been putting my research dupe on other duties, but for the most part he was researching or analyzing geysers, so it'll be nice to have him do real work for a change.

Besides that, I have steel production going, but it's slow due to the lack of eggs from creatures. There are pockets of fossils, so I should be all right, but they really aren't making it easy.

Did I mention all the sand? Like 1/3 of the tiles are sand. It's annoying to cut through because it falls, and it's almost worthless. Bleh.

In any case, things are still going fairly smoothly. Once I have some steel produced, I'll finally be able to get some real cooling going.

Screenshot in case you're interested. Look at the sand!
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Old 09-08-2019, 07:43 AM
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Wow! Amazing progress for cycle 150. Even just surviving is remarkable. I finally have a stable steam economy going. I really thought volcanoes would be able to sustain more steam turbines than they can. But I've learnt otherwise. Also, now that I know I need to periodically clean up the rock produced from the volcano I've redesigned entry to make it easier (and so I won't lose precious precious steam).
  #569  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:17 PM
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Cycle 200!

As usual, ONI gives me what I needed most just when I don't need it any more .

Around cycle 160, my crops started dying due to heat. I thought I had a few more cycles to go, but apparently not. Fortunately, I had a bit of food stocked and was able to finish building my base cooler before running out. It's not as efficient as a supercoolant-based one, but it's not bad and it really doesn't have to work too hard.

Just as I completed it, the pod printer gifts me... a wheezewort! A precious wheezewort seed, which I plopped down in the middle of my farm. That got my crops going even before I had placed all the cooling pipes and such in my base.

That said, phosphorite is at a serious premium and I will run out in short order, so I needed the base cooler anyway. It also allows me to switch to bristle blossoms, which I had wanted to do anyway (my dupes are sick of eating those disgusting bugs after 200 cycles). Still, it has smoothed the transition.

I was also able to mostly finish my oil refinery. This isn't utterly crucial but I'd like some power reserve for when I embark on further projects. The hydrogen geysers are nice but because they run on cycles I want to be sure I have some reserve for when they aren't going.

So things are looking up for my dupes. I think they've made it through the difficult parts. Time to explore deeper and further up and see what else they can exploit in their hot and sandy home.
  #570  
Old 09-08-2019, 10:19 PM
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I really thought volcanoes would be able to sustain more steam turbines than they can.
I haven't tried this yet, but it's not totally shocking. The flip side of this is that steam turbines are great at getting rid of heat--so good, in fact, that your magma just doesn't last that long. But as part of a cooling system, that's exactly what you want.
  #571  
Old 09-09-2019, 05:53 PM
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That said, phosphorite is at a serious premium and I will run out in short order, so I needed the base cooler anyway. It also allows me to switch to bristle blossoms, which I had wanted to do anyway (my dupes are sick of eating those disgusting bugs after 200 cycles). Still, it has smoothed the transition.
Low on phosphorite? Are you not ranching glossy drekos for plastic? They poop the stuff.
  #572  
Old 09-09-2019, 06:11 PM
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Low on phosphorite? Are you not ranching glossy drekos for plastic? They poop the stuff.
I did on my other (1700 cycle) base, but on this one I haven't had time to set up a ranch yet. Also, I only just found a chlorine geyser, but being almost at the top of the map it's going to take time to tap. Since mined resources are so limited on this map, I need to be careful not to grow things that use something non-renewable. The chlorine/balm lily/drecko ranch is a good one but like I said, I needed chlorine first.

I'd like a pincha peppernut supply but I have no polluted water source other than what I can produce via power plants and carbon scrubbers. That might work out--I have a CO2 geyser that I can use as a renewable source of polluted water. But again I haven't had time to set it up. Not starving due to overheated crops has been more on my mind.
  #573  
Old 09-10-2019, 05:18 AM
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Cycle 300 on Oasisse.

Things are running very smoothly now, with ample stores of hydrogen, natural gas, petroleum, and oil. Water is still from a hot geyser, but my cooling system continues to work well, and so I've managed to convert my crops to bristle blossoms, which demand reasonably cool water.

My vent selection, while by no means terrible, isn't particularly broad. I haven't explored 100% yet, but it looks like I'm not getting a polluted water geyser. The hydrogen is nice, but I also have several polluted oxygen vents, which are basically useless.

So I'll have to make my own from CO2 vents and carbon skimmers, which is fine. Need to figure out the throughput on on that. Hopefully it's enough to supply at least a few pincha pepper plants.

I also have salt water and chlorine geysers, which will come in handy later on. For now, my dupes are just happy to not be eating meal lice all the time.
  #574  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:57 AM
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Cycle 300 on Oasisse.

Things are running very smoothly now, with ample stores of hydrogen, natural gas, petroleum, and oil. Water is still from a hot geyser, but my cooling system continues to work well, and so I've managed to convert my crops to bristle blossoms, which demand reasonably cool water.

My vent selection, while by no means terrible, isn't particularly broad. I haven't explored 100% yet, but it looks like I'm not getting a polluted water geyser. The hydrogen is nice, but I also have several polluted oxygen vents, which are basically useless.

So I'll have to make my own from CO2 vents and carbon skimmers, which is fine. Need to figure out the throughput on on that. Hopefully it's enough to supply at least a few pincha pepper plants.

I also have salt water and chlorine geysers, which will come in handy later on. For now, my dupes are just happy to not be eating meal lice all the time.
Won't polluted oxygen become oxygen with a simple deodorerizer which takes sand (of which you have plenty)?
  #575  
Old 09-10-2019, 03:50 PM
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I just realized all my excess seeds can be composted!!
  #576  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:39 PM
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Won't polluted oxygen become oxygen with a simple deodorerizer which takes sand (of which you have plenty)?
It does, but in the spirit of "things which would have been handy a long time ago", that would have been a fantastic thing on cycle 4 since O2 production was so difficult then. But now I have a nice self-contained (and mostly self-powered) electrolysis system, with plenty of water, so it just isn't worth much these days.

I could use it as an O2 source for liquification, and don't even have to purify it first--the liquification does that for you. But it's going to be a while before I start building liquid oxygen rockets. Lime is scarce, and if I'm going to ramp up steel production I'll probably need to build a high-efficiency egg shell farm. Probably either Pacu or Dreckos since they can be farmed with no resource input.

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I just realized all my excess seeds can be composted!!
It's too bad that muckroot can't. I basically have to dedicate a container to it since it can only be swept.
  #577  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:54 PM
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It's too bad that muckroot can't. I basically have to dedicate a container to it since it can only be swept.
I feed it to my hatches as a supplementary form of diet for them (they mainly eat whatever is most common on the map).
  #578  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:56 PM
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Oh and I like Shine Bugs for egg shells. Sure they eat a little bit of berries, but they also help grow the berries for no heat. I'm usually swimming in shine bug eggs (so I eat the extra). So even though they eat some berries they make up for it in omelettes.
  #579  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:27 PM
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Shine bugs sound like a good idea. Pretty low resources and high reproduction rate.

It looks like they need ~1 blossom plant per bug, which is a little more than I'd like--mainly because I'm trying to stick to things that can be 100% automated when possible. But they'll eat phosphorite, too, and I can set up a completely automated/zero input phosphorite farm. Will take a while since I have to pipe in the chlorine, but aside from that it should work well.

Even with just four dupes, they're standing around idle half the time. Lazy! So this will make a good project.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:50 PM
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Usually my guys are only idle if they're dying ;P Idle is like a pre-suffocation indicator.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:14 PM
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Well, there's that too . I once managed to kill two of them in a collapsing sand dome. In fact I got to them almost right away but they still couldn't dig out in time. As I've said, though, I've no problems reloading an old save when the dupes do something colossally stupid.
  #582  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:17 PM
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Hmmm.... I have a cool slush geyser right next to an iron volcano. I wonder I can throw the slush into the volcano to cool the iron enough to grab it without burning my dupes. I guess if I'm going to sacrifice the slush to a volcano I should check to see if it is a virgin or not...
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:43 AM
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Hmmm.... I have a cool slush geyser right next to an iron volcano. I wonder I can throw the slush into the volcano to cool the iron enough to grab it without burning my dupes. I guess if I'm going to sacrifice the slush to a volcano I should check to see if it is a virgin or not...
Pull the balance off right, and you can:
A) cool the iron
B) run a steam turbine
and
C) produce glass as a byproduct
all at the same time.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:59 AM
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I did on my other (1700 cycle) base, but on this one I haven't had time to set up a ranch yet. Also, I only just found a chlorine geyser, but being almost at the top of the map it's going to take time to tap. Since mined resources are so limited on this map, I need to be careful not to grow things that use something non-renewable. The chlorine/balm lily/drecko ranch is a good one but like I said, I needed chlorine first.

I'd like a pincha peppernut supply but I have no polluted water source other than what I can produce via power plants and carbon scrubbers. That might work out--I have a CO2 geyser that I can use as a renewable source of polluted water. But again I haven't had time to set it up. Not starving due to overheated crops has been more on my mind.
I'm not nearly as far along in the game as most here (I hate it when everyone's been playing a game in early access and then I don't get it until its official release by which time all the discussion has already been had,) but if your goal is to get phosphorite, you don't need to feed them balm lilies, which means you don't need a chlorine atmosphere. You can feed them mealwood plants, which makes them more likely to reproduce as glossy dreckos. Put a little hydrogen at the top of the room, and you get free plastic.

Anyone have a good tutorial on base cooling? I'm at the point where I need to start dealing with it, and most tutorials I've found are based on earlier versions of the game in which, I gather, there were a whole lot more exploity options for cooling. I've found two anti-entropy thermo nullifiers, but don't really understand how to use them. If I set up a cooling loop and run water past them in radiant pipes, won't the water eventually freeze in the pipes?

Last edited by Arcite; 09-11-2019 at 11:00 AM.
  #585  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:48 AM
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I'm not nearly as far along in the game as most here (I hate it when everyone's been playing a game in early access and then I don't get it until its official release by which time all the discussion has already been had,) but if your goal is to get phosphorite, you don't need to feed them balm lilies, which means you don't need a chlorine atmosphere. You can feed them mealwood plants, which makes them more likely to reproduce as glossy dreckos. Put a little hydrogen at the top of the room, and you get free plastic.

Anyone have a good tutorial on base cooling? I'm at the point where I need to start dealing with it, and most tutorials I've found are based on earlier versions of the game in which, I gather, there were a whole lot more exploity options for cooling. I've found two anti-entropy thermo nullifiers, but don't really understand how to use them. If I set up a cooling loop and run water past them in radiant pipes, won't the water eventually freeze in the pipes?
Yeah, don't use water, use gas pipes. I usually have one with hydrogen (that just loops forever) and another with oxygen which I pump into hot spots.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:59 AM
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Using water is fine, as long as you also use automation - a bypass valve that is activated when a pipe temp sensor drops to just above 0C + however much cooling is getting done by the AETN will work fine. You'd also want a water reservoir building along the loop somewhere for temperature balancing.

Or you could use a fluid with a lower freezing temp, such as ethanol or oil. You'd still need the bypass eventually, or you'd end up with too much cooling.
  #587  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:54 PM
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Pull the balance off right, and you can:
A) cool the iron
B) run a steam turbine
and
C) produce glass as a byproduct
all at the same time.
That's what I'm hoping for. To date, I've produce 3000 mg of glass. Yay? ;P
  #588  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:54 PM
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It is so strange to see my industrial area a nice shade of green to greenish yellow Normally it is a deep deep red to maybe an orange at best.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 09-11-2019 at 05:55 PM.
  #589  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:28 PM
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You can feed them mealwood plants, which makes them more likely to reproduce as glossy dreckos. Put a little hydrogen at the top of the room, and you get free plastic.
Ahh, but then I need dirt. And while I do have a lot of dirt, it's fundamentally a finite resource. Of course, I can use Pips to make dirt, but Pips need Arbor trees, which need polluted water (quite a bit of it). And I have no polluted water geyser. I do have some CO2 geysers, which I am now scrubbing to get polluted water, but I need to do the math on what that can support.

Overall, I do try to "role play" the game a bit and try to build systems that are fundamentally sustainable, even if the resource in question is reasonably abundant. I don't want to leave my dupes to die after I stop playing the game...

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Anyone have a good tutorial on base cooling? I'm at the point where I need to start dealing with it, and most tutorials I've found are based on earlier versions of the game in which, I gather, there were a whole lot more exploity options for cooling.
Build a little chamber around the nullifier and pipe in hydrogen. It won't freeze and has great heat capacity for a gas. I typically put a pump in the room, pipe it up to what needs cooling, and then going back to the chamber it splits between the nullifier itself (which needs hydrogen) and a high-pressure vent. Then, a separate low-pressure vent acts as a fill port and pipes in hydrogen from the source. This way, the fill port keeps the system topped off at a reasonable pressure, but it also doesn't run into weird overpressure bottlenecks, since the high-pressure vent can always discharge.

Generally, though, I use steam turbines. A turbine sits in an insulated box above another insulated box, each 5x3 units. The lower box contains a steel aquatuner sitting in a layer of petroleum, and then some water. The aquatuner cools water or supercoolant from a separate reservoir controlled by a thermostat. The coolant passes by the turbine on its way back to the reservoir to keep it cool, since it will overheat after a while otherwise. A separate thermostat disables the aquatuner if it gets above 230 C. The output from the turbine pours right back into the steam box to reheat. You can see a few examples in my screenshots in post #546.

It's an incredibly powerful self-contained cooling unit. With water, it can cool at 585 kDTU/s, compared to a nullifier at 80 kDTU/s or a wheezewort at 12 kDTU/s. With supercoolant, that goes up to 877 kDTU/s.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:53 PM
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Ahh, but then I need dirt. And while I do have a lot of dirt, it's fundamentally a finite resource. Of course, I can use Pips to make dirt, but Pips need Arbor trees, which need polluted water (quite a bit of it). And I have no polluted water geyser. I do have some CO2 geysers, which I am now scrubbing to get polluted water, but I need to do the math on what that can support.
Can't you also get dirt from sieving the polluted water from your industrial processes, and composting renewable organic material? Of course, I haven't done the math on whether that would provide enough dirt.

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Build a little chamber around the nullifier and pipe in hydrogen. It won't freeze and has great heat capacity for a gas. I typically put a pump in the room, pipe it up to what needs cooling, and then going back to the chamber it splits between the nullifier itself (which needs hydrogen) and a high-pressure vent. Then, a separate low-pressure vent acts as a fill port and pipes in hydrogen from the source. This way, the fill port keeps the system topped off at a reasonable pressure, but it also doesn't run into weird overpressure bottlenecks, since the high-pressure vent can always discharge.

Generally, though, I use steam turbines. A turbine sits in an insulated box above another insulated box, each 5x3 units. The lower box contains a steel aquatuner sitting in a layer of petroleum, and then some water. The aquatuner cools water or supercoolant from a separate reservoir controlled by a thermostat. The coolant passes by the turbine on its way back to the reservoir to keep it cool, since it will overheat after a while otherwise. A separate thermostat disables the aquatuner if it gets above 230 C. The output from the turbine pours right back into the steam box to reheat. You can see a few examples in my screenshots in post #546.

It's an incredibly powerful self-contained cooling unit. With water, it can cool at 585 kDTU/s, compared to a nullifier at 80 kDTU/s or a wheezewort at 12 kDTU/s. With supercoolant, that goes up to 877 kDTU/s.
Thanks. It's a little intimidating to think I need to be making enough power for that 1200 watt aquatuner to run continuously, in addition to all my other equipment, though. I guess I need to take the plunge and build more power plants. Fortunately, I have two natural gas geysers. But first I need to set up a system for dealing with the polluted water runoff.

Can anyone tell me exactly what the "glum" vs. "overcrowded" debuffs on your critters do? I found a post on another message board saying "overcrowded" slows their reproductive rate, while "glum" slows their metabolism (e.g., hatches will produce coal more slowly.) Is that it? The wiki doesn't say.
  #591  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:09 PM
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Can't you also get dirt from sieving the polluted water from your industrial processes, and composting renewable organic material? Of course, I haven't done the math on whether that would provide enough dirt.
My power generation is mostly hydrogen, so I don't get PW from that. I have a petroleum generator as a backup but it doesn't really ever kick in.

I don't have much food waste, so compost doesn't help much there, but my other base has a robust Pip/lumber/distiller/ethanol/compost cycle. Pips make dirt, and the distillers make polluted dirt that can be composted. It was very productive but I'm a ways off from that on the new map.

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Thanks. It's a little intimidating to think I need to be making enough power for that 1200 watt aquatuner to run continuously, in addition to all my other equipment, though.
It won't run continuously--because there's so much cooling power, it'll likely be at a low duty cycle. Plus, the turbine gets you much of that back.

In fact, with supercoolant it's almost breakeven. The turbine generates almost enough power to drive the aquatuner. Although the aquatuner is 1200 W and the turbine makes 850 W, the aquatuner produces so much heat that has to shut down some of the time (hence the 230 C limit). It runs about 2/3 of the time so the total average power is similar.

With water, it's less efficient. But still, you can get very effective base and crop cooling with maybe a couple hundred watts average power.

I haven't run the numbers but I think it may be more efficient than nullifiers, even though the nullifiers seem to be "free". Gas pumps are power hogs, and you just don't get that much cooling out of one setup. A water pipe has enormous cooling capacity compared to a hydrogen gas pipe.

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I guess I need to take the plunge and build more power plants. Fortunately, I have two natural gas geysers. But first I need to set up a system for dealing with the polluted water runoff.
Oh dang, get on that right away! Two gas geysers are great. At the least, get a start by piping the natural gas into a storage container.

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Can anyone tell me exactly what the "glum" vs. "overcrowded" debuffs on your critters do? I found a post on another message board saying "overcrowded" slows their reproductive rate, while "glum" slows their metabolism (e.g., hatches will produce coal more slowly.) Is that it? The wiki doesn't say.
That sounds right to me, but I'm not 100% sure either.
  #592  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:29 PM
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Well, this is a new problem. My crops are dying... because it is too cold in my base! My base is turning blue!!! LOL
  #593  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:33 PM
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Well, this is a new problem. My crops are dying... because it is too cold in my base! My base is turning blue!!! LOL
Time for some thermostats! Some thermo sensors and shutoff valves should do the trick.

My water cooling system does have a nice advantage in that as long as I keep the reservoir at a constant temperature (about 20 C), then I can pipe it anywhere and it will cool only that low and no lower. Or even heat, if necessary.
  #594  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:58 PM
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Time for some thermostats! Some thermo sensors and shutoff valves should do the trick.

My water cooling system does have a nice advantage in that as long as I keep the reservoir at a constant temperature (about 20 C), then I can pipe it anywhere and it will cool only that low and no lower. Or even heat, if necessary.
Thankfully heating things back up is much easier than cooling them down. I use valves in most of my setups so I just cut them down to minimal levels (30 g/s to keep the nullifier at status quo). Things should heat back up pretty quickly.
  #595  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:43 PM
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It won't run continuously--because there's so much cooling power, it'll likely be at a low duty cycle. Plus, the turbine gets you much of that back.
Where would you put the thermostat sensor to turn it off--in the pipe of coolant itself, or in the region of the base you're trying to cool down? I would think it would run for a long time at first while it got the temperature down, before it started cycling on and off.

I checked out the screenshots of your base. Very impressive. So in your steam turbine setups, you put the petroleum to be heated by the aquatuner, and the water to be boiled into steam, in the same chamber? I think the guy who made those guides to Surviving the Early/Mid Game that were cited earlier put crude oil below with the aquatuner, then above it a row of metal tiles, then the water/steam chamber above that. Any advantage to doing it one way vs. the other?

Also, it looks like in your screenshots, you've got some steam turbines where the chamber below doesn't have an aquatuner, just a liquid vent and a gas pump. What's going on there?
  #596  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:59 PM
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Where would you put the thermostat sensor to turn it off--in the pipe of coolant itself, or in the region of the base you're trying to cool down? I would think it would run for a long time at first while it got the temperature down, before it started cycling on and off.
I put it in the water reservoir--basically a buffer tank that stays at the target temperature. My previous base had a giant tank, like 24 tons or thereabouts, which indeed took a long time to cool down (though like I said, with supercoolant there's hardly any net power use). The tank doesn't have to be that big, though; a partially-filled 4x1 tank (say, 2000 kg) is sufficient to get started, as long as slightly larger temperature fluctuations are ok. You need room for a liquid pump, a hydro sensor, and a thermo sensor.

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I checked out the screenshots of your base. Very impressive. So in your steam turbine setups, you put the petroleum to be heated by the aquatuner, and the water to be boiled into steam, in the same chamber?
That's right. I went through a bunch of variations but this proved to be the simplest. The petroleum acts as a buffer and heat exchange agent for the aquatuner (the aquatuner can't get rid of heat fast enough with pure steam). And it's easy to fill up. I use the liquid vent that was already there as the turbine output, and then build a little filling pool outside the unit. I pump in about 1000 kg of petroleum, for 200 kg per tile inside, and then 200 kg of water (40 kg per tile). The water quickly turns to steam, and the petroleum just sits on the bottom spreading the heat around.

Oh yeah, and I also put a 5x2 array of tempshift plate in both the turbine room and the steam chamber, though I'm really not sure how necessary that is. I may try building one without that.

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Also, it looks like in your screenshots, you've got some steam turbines where the chamber below doesn't have an aquatuner, just a liquid vent and a gas pump. What's going on there?
Early variations. In these, I used metal tiles as heatspreaders and put the aquatuner beside it in a separate pool of petroleum. These work fine but are bigger and more complicated than they need to be. The combined version works great and is almost as small as it could be.

You may note that my steam chambers have a pump in them. I do this for an initial pumpdown to vacuum so that gas doesn't interfere with the steam. However, on one version I accidentally left some oxygen in there, and it seemed to disappear over time--so the pump may not be necessary. I should experiment more here as well. Always trying to optimize more!
  #597  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:20 AM
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I did a bit of experimentation in sandbox mode--and I've been overbuilding my cooling setups.

Two unnecessary bits: the tempshift plates and the petroleum bath. The tempshift plates spread the heat out a bit, but really there's not much point to them. As for the petroleum bath, "common knowledge" was that gases aren't sufficient cooling for aquatuners, but it turns out that high pressure steam is just fine. It has the same heat capacity as water and a decent thermal conductivity. The aquatuner stays just a degree or two hotter than the steam.

I did run into one curiosity. I tried making my steambox smaller, to 5x2 tiles. This meant the aquatuner was right under the turbine inputs. It worked fine, in the sense that the aquatuner ran at full speed. But somehow the steam never got very hot and the turbine never went full blast. At the same time, the aquatuner was going full blast, so it was constantly taking 900-1000 W, even though it should have been more like 100 W net.

Somehow, the geometry caused it to permanently delete heat, without even going generating power. I suppose this is good for cooling purposes, but it kinda sucked because it turned into such a power hog.

So, I think I'll stick with a 5x3 setup, even though it doesn't seem like it should be necessary.

One other finding--pumping down to vacuum is in fact a good idea. Sufficiently large traces of O2 do interfere with the turbine. So the gas pump is necessary; fortunately, it's also cheap.
  #598  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:53 PM
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Obvious advice of the day: Geysers will stop producing gas (e.g. hydrogen or natural gas) when the pressure gets too high (5 kg). I used to pump it back into the same room but through a high pressure value. This mainly worked; however, now I pump it into a series of gas reservoirs. This works so much better, and yes, completely obvious. :P
  #599  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:04 PM
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For the first time, I'm doing some serious building in the space biome. I've built up about 7 tonnes of steel. I'm trying to get observatory going. I've started setting up the upper tier of the colony so that atmo suits won't be required. Once we have oxygen, power, food, etc. I think I may move a crew up to the top so that they don't have so far to travel since that's where most of the work is happening anyway.
  #600  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:08 PM
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For the first time, I'm doing some serious building in the space biome. I've built up about 7 tonnes of steel.
Nice! That should be more than enough for a starter rocket and silo. You'll need a few thousand for the rocket (2000 for the basic steam engine is the big one), and then maybe 1500 for the silo roof (at least 2 bunker doors, plus some surrounding bits).

It sounds like you're going for a more "luxurious" space area than I usually go for--my dupes stay in their suits when they're up there. But I should really consider making it more comfortable up there.
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