Straight Dope Message Board

[Sunny Daze]

Poster Octopus has been getting in hot water lately with his hijinks in various threads. Like this gem from the thread on the Alabama special election:

Originally Posted by octopus

An accusation of an event from 40 years ago? C’mon now. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything. I’m of the opinion that since we have something called “courts” trials of people accused of crimes should usually occur there.

Plus we all know as the great political sage James Carville once said “Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you'll find.”

Followed by this:

Originally Posted by octopus

I’m not surprised that people on this forum are quick to jump on allegations and ignore due process if it suits their political goals. I think Moore has problematic positions on certain issues but that’s irrelevant with regards to convicting a person of a crime without a trial.

It’s also interesting that this story hasn’t come out before.

which led to a complete thread derailment, temporary closure, and multiple warnings.

His antics are spilling over into other threads, so I'm creating this little playground for everyone to discuss all things Cephalopod, without running aground and mucking up other places.

Welcome!

[Spice Weasel]

To continue the discussion from there:

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
That's not what the "shame on you" is about -- the "shame on you" is about the next bit.



If you want to sit alone on your sofa and question anything at all, including motive or timing or whatever else, I don't care. I don't care what's happening inside your head. But putting stuff out there into the world -- whether saying it in public, or typing on a public message board, or calling into a radio show... those are actions that can affect others. It's certainly not illegal (nor should it be) -- but legal things can still be wrong. And your posts questioning of timing or motive are contributing, in an eensy-teensy but real way, to this cultural/societal mistrust we have of victims (especially female victims) of rape, sexual assault, and sexual harassment. You're making it just a teeny-tiny bit more likely that the next victim who may have happened to hear questions like yours about some other victim will decide not to come forward, because they're already suffering from having endured a trauma/attack/harassment/etc., and they just can't open themselves up to more trauma of rhetorical attacks on them, publicly, just because they're telling their story.

That's wrong and shameful, and something you shouldn't do. It doesn't mean you have to say "I believe the women". You don't have to say anything. But if you choose to say something about it, and what you say is questioning the motives or timing or anything else that the accusers say (barring real evidence that they're lying), then you're putting shit out into the world on top of more shit that really hurts victims of sexual misconduct and women in general. Please don't do that any more. When/if you do, it's likely someone will call you out for it.

This is it exactly. If someone wants to reserve judgment on any particular accusation, particularly if their lack of action will have no impact whatsoever on the alleged victim, I'm fine with that. The problem I see, time and time again, is when this reservation of judgment emphasizes aspects of the victim's behavior that are completely in line with how real-life victims behave. Saying, ''Why did she wait so long to come forward?" is basically announcing through a bullhorn that you don't know anything about the psychology of sexual assault victims, or the incredibly harsh consequences they may face for coming forward (in my case, I lost my family and my reputation just for telling a counselor), but you're going to go ahead and judge her behavior anyway because that makes it easier for you to doubt.

I completely and fully acknowledge the complexity of this issue despite my obvious bias. I find the power of false accustations, however rare, horrifying beyond measure, in part because I can relate having been falsely accused of lying about my abuse, and the experiences appear to be very similar. I don't think it requires a court standard of evidence to make up your own mind about someone's guilt, but I do think there is nothing wrong with taking things on a case-by-case basis. The problem comes in when skeptics embrace completely mythological concepts about what rape or abuse victims are supposed to act like in dealing with their trauma. In the past week, we've had posters state that nobody could reasonably feel threatened by a grown man blocking the door and masturbating in front of them, that people speaking out against sexual assault should be afforded ''no big honor'' since they are ruining the lives of the people whose movies they like to watch, that victims not speaking out right away are a cause for suspicion (octopus), and we even had a poster months ago stating that women should never tell anyone besides ''a few trusted confidantes'' about their rape, ever, unless they'd proved it in a court of law, so as to protect their rapist's reputation. All of these statements smack of ignorance and a lack of empathy. That is damaging to everyone.

Ther perpetuation of those myths is the reason I and every woman after me have continued to suffer for the crimes of other people, and it is not okay.

[wolfpup]

Good idea. Come on, Spice Weasel, get over here!

Meanwhile I'll summarize my contribution: octopus likes to pretend that he's a blameless angelic guardian of all things fair and righteous, but he's actually a hypocritical lying douchebag.

ETA: We welcome Spice Weasel, who just got over here.

[Beckdawrek]

I don't have the 'chop's or paid enough dues on this forum to really belong in this thread. But...I know wrong- headedness when I see it. Octo-mouth needs some education on how victims of sexual harassment and sexual misconduct are treated. Most victims are subjected to disbelief and the 'what were you wearing' questions and 'why did you put yourself in that situation' looks. Or the ' it's not like you've never had sex before' tut-tut. Or, my favorite ' couldn't you just leave'. Unless you have been in the same place as these women you cannot and should not make blanket generalizations. You are not qualified to judge these women, ever, Octo.!

[JohnT]

The judge himself hasn't bothered to deny this has happened, relying on the "why did they wait 40 years?" defense.

https://twitter.com/MooreSenate/stat...71064406167552

I put this out here because the judge issued this statement 21 hours ago, and yet Octopus kept defending him against baseless allegations, etc. But they are not baseless - the accused isn't even denying the accusations!

[octopus]

Originally Posted by wolfpup

Good idea. Come on, Spice Weasel, get over here!

Meanwhile I'll summarize my contribution: octopus likes to pretend that he's a blameless angelic guardian of all things fair and righteous, but he's actually a hypocritical lying douchebag.

ETA: We welcome Spice Weasel, who just got over here.

You really are too dumb or dishonest to waste too much time with.

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

I don't have the 'chop's or paid enough dues on this forum to really belong in this thread. But...I know wrong- headedness when I see it. Octo-mouth needs some education on how victims of sexual harassment and sexual misconduct are treated. Most victims are subjected to disbelief and the 'what were you wearing' questions and 'why did you put yourself in that situation' looks. Or the ' it's not like you've never had sex before' tut-tut. Or, my favorite ' couldn't you just leave'. Unless you have been in the same place as these women you cannot and should not make blanket generalizations. You are not qualified to judge these women, ever, Octo.!

Octo-mouth? what is this 3rd grade? Beckatwerp? Whatever.

Anyways. I’ll judge who or what I wish when I wish. And iirc, you were doing some victim blaming in the thread on forced kissing so how about stop with the stone tossing?

[octopus]

Originally Posted by JohnT

The judge himself hasn't bothered to deny this has happened, relying on the "why did they wait 40 years?" defense.

https://twitter.com/MooreSenate/stat...71064406167552

I put this out here because the judge issued this statement 21 hours ago, and yet Octopus kept defending him against baseless allegations, etc. But they are not baseless - the accused isn't even denying the accusations!

Not once did I defend Moore. People on these forums really cannot read. I blame the schools. They’ve failed us all.

[Airbeck]

Well since we're all so illiterate you always have the option of leaving and finding another forum with an acceptable level of intelligence. Nobody is forcing you to communicate with all of us idiots.

[John Mace]

For me, it's not so much a question of whether I believe the women with charges against Roy Moore or not. Certainly no accusation should be just accepted at face value. It's a question of:

1. More than one person is making the claim. Yes, they are not all making the exact same claim, but they are in the same ballpark;

and (perhaps even more importantly):

2. This is The Washington Post, not The National Enquirer. That is not to say the WaPo is always right, but I think the default should be: A quality newspaper like that should be given credence unless you have good reason not to.

These are not unvetted women shouting on a street corner somewhere. I doubt any of this will go to trial, so it's going to be trial by public opinion. My take is anyone who doubts this should be evidence. Something other than: Well, they could be lying.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Airbeck

Well since we're all so illiterate you always have the option of leaving and finding another forum with an acceptable level of intelligence. Nobody is forcing you to communicate with all of us idiots.

Yeah. So long, suckers!

[octopus]

Originally Posted by John Mace

For me, it's not so much a question of whether I believe the women with charges against Roy Moore or not. Certainly no accusation should be just accepted at face value. It's a question of:

1. More than one person is making the claim. Yes, they are not all making the exact same claim, but they are in the same ballpark;

and (perhaps even more importantly):

2. This is The Washington Post, not The National Enquirer. That is not to say the WaPo is always right, but I think the default should be: A quality newspaper like that should be given credence unless you have good reason not to.

These are not unvetted women shouting on a street corner somewhere. I doubt any of this will go to trial, so it's going to be trial by public opinion. My take is anyone who doubts this should be evidence. Something other than: Well, they could be lying.

Now this is a reasonable post. I’m truly surprised.

[Beckdawrek]

Originally Posted by octopus

You really are too dumb or dishonest to waste too much time with.



Octo-mouth? what is this 3rd grade? Beckatwerp? Whatever.

Anyways. I’ll judge who or what I wish when I wish. And iirc, you were doing some victim blaming in the thread on forced kissing so how about stop with the stone tossing?

I never victim blamed anyone. In that thread I said what I would do, not, I repeat NOT
what anyone else could or should do. You're the 3rd grader, and no you cannot judge anybody you want, not in civil society. Who died and made you God?

[Beckdawrek]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Yeah. So long, suckers!

Does this mean you're leaving?

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

I never victim blamed anyone. In that thread I said what I would do, not, I repeat NOT
what anyone else could or should do. You're the 3rd grader, and no you cannot judge anybody you want, not in civil society. Who died and made you God?

Sure.

Do you not understand what judging is? You look at evidence, facts, etc. apply some reasoning then make a judgement. You should know that by now. So, yes, I can and will judge who or what I want. Just as everyone and everything that has a brain does.

[Beckdawrek]

Damn, I thought you were leaving! Before you judge anyone with your big brain, think about how you would feel if this was your Mom or Wife or Sister, or child! No woman should have to worry about being judged by strangers for disclosing what happened to them, much less family. It happens to EVERY person who speaks out about being sexually assaulted or abused. EVERY one!

[Covfefe]

I judge Spice Weasel's post to be AWESOME.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Are you going to run away from this thread too? Sad little cowardly man.

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

Damn, I thought you were leaving! Before you judge anyone with your big brain, think about how you would feel if this was your Mom or Wife or Sister, or child! No woman should have to worry about being judged by strangers for disclosing what happened to them, much less family. It happens to EVERY person who speaks out about being sexually assaulted or abused. EVERY one!

When did I ever say I was leaving?

If someone did something to my family hopefully we’d go to the police and have the person arrested and tried for his or her crime.

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Are you going to run away from this thread too? Sad little cowardly man.

I just posted, dummy. Though, this is not the thread full of people acting with civility that I imagined. If it fills with hysterical vitriol and nonsense it won’t be worth my time. If it is somewhat productive to engage then I do.

[Airbeck]

Originally Posted by octopus

When did I ever say I was leaving?

If someone did something to my family hopefully we’d go to the police and have the person arrested and tried for his or her crime.

But you would still vote for them for Senate?

[Spice Weasel]

Originally Posted by octopus

Good post but I take issue with lack of empathy. I can link some videos of mob justice if you want to see the damage allegations can do.

I think by now, with the threads we have participated in together, you know exactly how I feel about mob justice. I find it equal parts terrifying and horrifying. Deciding not to vote for someone because the allegations against them seem plausible is not mob justice.

Due process is well and fine for deciding whether someone should be convicted of a crime and punished. An individual making up his or her mind about the known facts and how to proceed is a separate one.

You have to understand where I'm coming from. The first man who molested me confessed to it (I was far too young to even comprehend), pled guilty, was convicted, and 27 years later I find out one of my Aunts is dating his nephew and my molester is just around her kids all the time. I had a childhood friend who was raped at knifepoint repeatedly by her teenaged brother. He also went to prison, but being of a religious family, she was pressured immediately to forgive and reconcile with him. I have a relative through marriage who participated in a gang rape, he was also convicted, but due to the wealth and influence of his family, he did not serve prison time. He isn't allowed to be near a school but he is welcomed with open arms at family events, I see him on a regular basis, he has his own business and a daughter and for all intents and purposes, a normal life. I am expected to kiss him on the cheek whenever we see each other (I don't.)

I don't suggest that people's crimes must always haunt them forever, but that fact that in my direct experience you can be legally convicted of rape or pedophilia and people will pretty much forget about it really dampens the impact of claims that mere accusations will forever ruin a person's life. ''Forget'' isn't exactly the right word, because it always comes with a host of disgusting justifications that attempt to blame the victim. Now, I've heard accounts of falsely accused people experiencing significant hardship so I'm sure it happens occasionally. That whole business 30 years ago about the Satanic Ritual Abuse witchhunt comes to mind. But I really doubt it's anywhere near as systemic an issue as sexual assault.

Now, those are just the actually convicted offenders. There is my adopted father who abused me for six years, and the accusation, if you can even call it that (it's a long story, but I was under the impression my session with the counselor was confidential, I had no intention at that point of telling anyone in my family anything) impacted his life in approximately zero ways. I was harassed, shamed, interrogated and blamed for everything that happened, he remained married to my mother for another six years, he ended up with another woman who had a daughter the same age as I was when I was abused, she started acting out, and nobody. gave. a damn.

Not a lot I can do, I had and continue to have no evidence of my abuse, because you don't often have physical evidence for that sort of crime. While I was being abused I wasn't calculating how this would run in a court of law. I barely comprehended the reality of what was happening and spent most of my childhood ignoring it to the extent that I could. I understand how victims often act on a visceral level because I lived it. I never said a word - not a word - in protest and I didn't move. I couldn't wrap my head around it and I still can't. When I think about it I'm not angry, I'm just confused. All these years later my brain is still struggling to process it. Why don't we speak up sooner? Why don't we fight back? Why don't we tell someone right away? Because most of us don't. There's no reason in it. It's more like a physiological process you can't control.

Anyhoo, I was skipping school my senior year (I had become a legally emancipated minor), sitting around in my pajamas contemplating hanging myself from the rafters when a young police officer maybe five years older than me knocked on my door, came inside, clearly uncomfortable, and began asking me all these personal questions he was clearly embarrassed to ask me. It was just the two of us. (I'd rank that up there as one of my more humiliating experiences, second only to having to recount all of this to my mother over the telephone because she refused to meet me in person.) I finally just said to the officer, ''Do I have to talk about this?" He said, ''Oh, no, you don't have to file a police report.'' I thanked him and sent him away.

Now it may be obvious to you but in my fugue state of depression, disbelief and trauma, I had no idea I was even filing a police report. The thought of dragging that stuff into court was the very last thing on my mind. I just wanted to die. The idea that if I had filed a police report and then later redacted it, I would be called, in the court of public opinion, a liar, someone who obviously made it up, is not something that is ever far from my mind when we talk about false accusations.

17 years later, where are we? Well, I don't know what the hell he's been up to, since we no longer have a relationship, but he did attend my grandfather's funeral and I did not so that I wouldn't have to see him. (Until my grandfather died, he was actually still a part of my family after the divorce.) As far as I can tell, he hasn't suffered the slightest for his actions. It's not him, it's me, with the therapy bills, and the sexual hangups, and I even had to deal with that shit when I tried to adopt a child, for fuck's sake, because my name was in the CPS system as a result of having been abused. It was eventually cleared but at a certain point you're like, ''Fucking really? This shit isn't over yet?"

At some point I moved from my personal experience to a broader advocacy platform, I studied things like public policy and social welfare at the graduate school level, and I learned about gender dynamics and began to understand that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. My job with a domestic violence and sexual assault organization is really more coincidence than anything else (I was looking for any grant writing job I could get), but it's become a vital part of my identity because I'm finally in a position where I can do something about it. I know it makes some people uncomfortable that I talk about it so openly, and that's good, stay with that discomfort, and then realize that there are thousands of women out there with nearly identical experiences and far worse, and many of us are done watching people look the other way, and equivocate, and propogate myths about us, without pushing back.

octopus, you do not strike me as a person that is particularly naive about the realities of such things, and I am speaking just as much to the hardcore apologists on this board to you as I am in this particular instance. If you want to know what a typical response is from a victim of sexual abuse, you don't have to guess, there are plenty of women you can ask.

[PigArcher]

The worst thing about octopus is that he named himself after an otherwise cool and interesting animal. Can we just talk about them instead?

[Sunny Daze]

Originally Posted by octopus

. You’re an odd creature.

It was hijacking the thread.

[bobot]

Originally Posted by wolfpup

.. octopus likes to pretend that he's a blameless angelic guardian of all things fair and righteous, but he's actually a hypocritical lying douchebag.

...

I was going to post my own thought in this thread, but I don't want to sound like I'm just copying what someone else said.

[Plumpudding]

Originally Posted by PigArcher

The worst thing about octopus is that he named himself after an otherwise cool and interesting animal. Can we just talk about them instead?

Agreed. They have such beautiful eyes.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/22/ff/77/2...9a52d9a72c.jpg

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by octopus

iiandyiiii, it’s unfortunate that we live in a world where people will lie for political or other purposes. However, that’s the world we inhabit. I agree with your sentiment and big picture goal but I disagree with your perception on what the best way to solve the problem is. I’m not sure what the best solution is. I’m pretty sure demonizing those who want evidence or are naturally skeptical is not it.

It's disappointing that you keep repeating the same things which don't conflict with my criticism in any way.

Again, I don't care, at all, not a single iota, if you "want evidence" or if you're "naturally skeptical". Seriously. That's fine with me. Want evidence all you want. Be skeptical all you want. I literally could not care less what is happening in your own mind.

But you're attacking women who did nothing more than come forward and tell their stories. That's what you did. You implied that they might be dishonest, and that they should have come forward sooner. That's your words, and those words are wrong. It's not being skeptical, or wanting evidence. It's attacking women who came forward and told their stories.

Do you see that? Do you see that you just made it harder for the next women to come forward, just a tiny bit, and easier for the next abuser to attack his victims who tell the truth?

Again, you don't have to say "I believe them". You don't have to believe them. You don't have to believe anything, or do anything. But if you choose to say something, and what you say implicitly attacks these women, then shame and more shame on you. This is not about skepticism or wanting evidence. It's about making it easier for abusers to abuse, and harder for victims to come forward and tell their stories. And that's what your words, and other words from folks who attack these women, explicitly or implicitly, do.

Please don't attack women, even implicitly, just for coming forward and telling their stories. Shame on you if you continue to do this, and double shame on you if you tell others that it's okay to do this. It's not okay, and it's never okay. Please don't contribute to this ugly part of our society and culture.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

It's disappointing that you keep repeating the same things which don't conflict with my criticism in any way.

Again, I don't care, at all, not a single iota, if you "want evidence" or if you're "naturally skeptical". Seriously. That's fine with me. Want evidence all you want. Be skeptical all you want. I literally could not care less what is happening in your own mind.

But you're attacking women who did nothing more than come forward and tell their stories. That's what you did. You implied that they might be dishonest, and that they should have come forward sooner. That's your words, and those words are wrong. It's not being skeptical, or wanting evidence. It's attacking women who came forward and told their stories.

Do you see that? Do you see that you just made it harder for the next women to come forward, just a tiny bit, and easier for the next abuser to attack his victims who tell the truth?

Again, you don't have to say "I believe them". You don't have to believe them. You don't have to believe anything, or do anything. But if you choose to say something, and what you say implicitly attacks these women, then shame and more shame on you. This is not about skepticism or wanting evidence. It's about making it easier for abusers to abuse, and harder for victims to come forward and tell their stories. And that's what your words, and other words from folks who attack these women, explicitly or implicitly, do.

Please don't attack women, even implicitly, just for coming forward and telling their stories. Shame on you if you continue to do this, and double shame on you if you tell others that it's okay to do this. It's not okay, and it's never okay. Please don't contribute to this ugly part of our society and culture.

Perhaps you could offer examples of ways to voice "wanting evidence" or being skeptical of their stories that would not be attacking the women? Surely if octopus is sincere, he'd have no problem following your examples, right?

[wolfpup]

Originally Posted by octopus

You really are too dumb or dishonest to waste too much time with.

Don't overlook the possibility that anyone who disagrees with you might be both!

I have no problem with conservatives. At all. At least, in the traditional, global sense of the word. I do have a problem with those who still cling unconditionally to the coattails of a self-serving and socially destructive Republican Party. People like you. A few snippets of track record that I could be bothered to look up:

The totally degenerate asshole Roy Moore is innocent!

An accusation of an event from 40 years ago? C’mon now. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.

Anyone who doesn't agree is part of a lynch mob!

People can say what they wish iiandyiiii. Are you saying I shouldn’t advocate people be tried and convicted in a court of law instead of by a partisan mob?

The incredibly "unfair" media that outs Moore and Trump did everything in their power to protect Bill Clinton!

The media will do everything in their power including hypocritical outrage to help their darling win. Where was this outrage when Clinton was actually grabbing pussy in Arkansas and the White House?

... which assertion Jonathan Chance -- who was in the media at the time -- set you straight on:

That's absolute nonsense. I was a part of the feeding frenzy during the whole Monica thing. We pounded Clinton so hard it was one of those never-before never-again sort of things. Clinton got more bad press during that time than Nixon ever did during Watergate for heaven's sake.

Roy Moore and Ted Kennedy ... meh, more or less the same!
Disingenuous comparisons your speciality: a presidential candidate and some random twit -- meh, more or less the same!
Bigotry is OK as long as it's practiced at the border
Responsibility for Russian hacking? Obama, of course!
Bernie Sanders is a pervert -- and so is anyone who supports him -- because of something he wrote about the psychology of sexual fantasies ... as interpreted by a Murdoch tabloid.
Bernie Sanders is "a sickness in America".

The last two about Sanders are especially telling. He's actually no more than a mainstream liberal by the standards of first-world democracies, but by your standard, he's a "sickness" because he advocates universal health care for all citizens and a more equitable wealth distribution similar to that of European and Commonwealth democracies. From where I stand, you're a typical Republican and dishonesty is a central part of the strategy to further your self-serving objectives. The Roy Moore incident is just a typical example.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Perhaps you could offer examples of ways to voice "wanting evidence" or being skeptical of their stories that would not be attacking the women? Surely if octopus is sincere, he'd have no problem following your examples, right?

He doesn't need to voice it at all. If he feels the need, I'm not going to attack him or anyone for saying something to the effect of "I'm reserving judgment right now", which doesn't attack anyone.

BTW, Moore was asked today if he remembers dating anyone as young as his accusers at the time. His answer: "Not generally, no."

Seriously. He said "not generally".

Still skeptical, anyone?

[Spice Weasel]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Perhaps you could offer examples of ways to voice "wanting evidence" or being skeptical of their stories that would not be attacking the women? Surely if octopus is sincere, he'd have no problem following your examples, right?

"Hmm. My jury's out. I'll refrain from judgment until more facts come into play."

And honestly, he should be able to say that without being attacked. People can argue back, but the statement in itself is neither offensive nor harmful. At best, it's prudent. In this particular case it strikes me as rather naive, nonetheless, there's nothing wrong with it.

When your defense involves criticizing specific alleged victim behavior that is typical of victims, without consideration for basic trauma psychology, then you contribute harm. When your defense involves deciding what behavior women would or wouldn't find threatening, or how "real victims" might behave, then you contribute harm. When your defense involves saying anything like "it's not like he's a rapist, these women are ruining his life over stupid shit" then you are probably beyond hope and of course you contribute harm.

*"real victims" has to go and that applies across the board for any gender or experience. People under stress routinely behave in ways that don't make sense to an outside observer. Adrenaline does weird things. Any time you evaluate any kind of scenario involving potential trauma it's important to keep this in mind.

[Beckdawrek]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Yeah. So long, suckers!

Here.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by octopus

I just posted, dummy. Though, this is not the thread full of people acting with civility that I imagined. If it fills with hysterical vitriol and nonsense it won’t be worth my time. If it is somewhat productive to engage then I do.

"Civility?" You do know what forum you're in, right?

[begbert2]

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

Here.

Did you notice who posted that? Unless you're suggesting that Vinyl Turnip is octopus's sock...

[Euphonious Polemic]

Just wanted to say Spice Weasel that I really appreciate your posts - both the important content that is well articulated, and your tone which is mature, respectful and quite frankly, amazing.

You're a good person.

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

"Civility?" You do know what forum you're in, right?

I liked how his monocle dropped out when he said that....

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by octopus

I just posted, dummy. Though, this is not the thread full of people acting with civility that I imagined. If it fills with hysterical vitriol and nonsense it won’t be worth my time. If it is somewhat productive to engage then I do.

You expect civility? In the Pit? You really are a special kind of moron, aren't you?

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Airbeck

But you would still vote for them for Senate?

Good question is it an (R) or a (D)?

In all seriousness, a large part of why I didn't vote for Donald Trump was his commentary about pussy grabbing. The other large part was I thought his potential downside outweighed his potential upside.

Originally Posted by Spice Weasel

I think by now, with the threads we have participated in together, you know exactly how I feel about mob justice. I find it equal parts terrifying and horrifying. Deciding not to vote for someone because the allegations against them seem plausible is not mob justice.

Due process is well and fine for deciding whether someone should be convicted of a crime and punished. An individual making up his or her mind about the known facts and how to proceed is a separate one.

You have to understand where I'm coming from. The first man who molested me confessed to it (I was far too young to even comprehend), pled guilty, was convicted, and 27 years later I find out one of my Aunts is dating his nephew and my molester is just around her kids all the time. I had a childhood friend who was raped at knifepoint repeatedly by her teenaged brother. He also went to prison, but being of a religious family, she was pressured immediately to forgive and reconcile with him. I have a relative through marriage who participated in a gang rape, he was also convicted, but due to the wealth and influence of his family, he did not serve prison time. He isn't allowed to be near a school but he is welcomed with open arms at family events, I see him on a regular basis, he has his own business and a daughter and for all intents and purposes, a normal life. I am expected to kiss him on the cheek whenever we see each other (I don't.)

I don't suggest that people's crimes must always haunt them forever, but that fact that in my direct experience you can be legally convicted of rape or pedophilia and people will pretty much forget about it really dampens the impact of claims that mere accusations will forever ruin a person's life. ''Forget'' isn't exactly the right word, because it always comes with a host of disgusting justifications that attempt to blame the victim. Now, I've heard accounts of falsely accused people experiencing significant hardship so I'm sure it happens occasionally. That whole business 30 years ago about the Satanic Ritual Abuse witchhunt comes to mind. But I really doubt it's anywhere near as systemic an issue as sexual assault.

Now, those are just the actually convicted offenders. There is my adopted father who abused me for six years, and the accusation, if you can even call it that (it's a long story, but I was under the impression my session with the counselor was confidential, I had no intention at that point of telling anyone in my family anything) impacted his life in approximately zero ways. I was harassed, shamed, interrogated and blamed for everything that happened, he remained married to my mother for another six years, he ended up with another woman who had a daughter the same age as I was when I was abused, she started acting out, and nobody. gave. a damn.

Not a lot I can do, I had and continue to have no evidence of my abuse, because you don't often have physical evidence for that sort of crime. While I was being abused I wasn't calculating how this would run in a court of law. I barely comprehended the reality of what was happening and spent most of my childhood ignoring it to the extent that I could. I understand how victims often act on a visceral level because I lived it. I never said a word - not a word - in protest and I didn't move. I couldn't wrap my head around it and I still can't. When I think about it I'm not angry, I'm just confused. All these years later my brain is still struggling to process it. Why don't we speak up sooner? Why don't we fight back? Why don't we tell someone right away? Because most of us don't. There's no reason in it. It's more like a physiological process you can't control.

Anyhoo, I was skipping school my senior year (I had become a legally emancipated minor), sitting around in my pajamas contemplating hanging myself from the rafters when a young police officer maybe five years older than me knocked on my door, came inside, clearly uncomfortable, and began asking me all these personal questions he was clearly embarrassed to ask me. It was just the two of us. (I'd rank that up there as one of my more humiliating experiences, second only to having to recount all of this to my mother over the telephone because she refused to meet me in person.) I finally just said to the officer, ''Do I have to talk about this?" He said, ''Oh, no, you don't have to file a police report.'' I thanked him and sent him away.

Now it may be obvious to you but in my fugue state of depression, disbelief and trauma, I had no idea I was even filing a police report. The thought of dragging that stuff into court was the very last thing on my mind. I just wanted to die. The idea that if I had filed a police report and then later redacted it, I would be called, in the court of public opinion, a liar, someone who obviously made it up, is not something that is ever far from my mind when we talk about false accusations.

17 years later, where are we? Well, I don't know what the hell he's been up to, since we no longer have a relationship, but he did attend my grandfather's funeral and I did not so that I wouldn't have to see him. (Until my grandfather died, he was actually still a part of my family after the divorce.) As far as I can tell, he hasn't suffered the slightest for his actions. It's not him, it's me, with the therapy bills, and the sexual hangups, and I even had to deal with that shit when I tried to adopt a child, for fuck's sake, because my name was in the CPS system as a result of having been abused. It was eventually cleared but at a certain point you're like, ''Fucking really? This shit isn't over yet?"

At some point I moved from my personal experience to a broader advocacy platform, I studied things like public policy and social welfare at the graduate school level, and I learned about gender dynamics and began to understand that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. My job with a domestic violence and sexual assault organization is really more coincidence than anything else (I was looking for any grant writing job I could get), but it's become a vital part of my identity because I'm finally in a position where I can do something about it. I know it makes some people uncomfortable that I talk about it so openly, and that's good, stay with that discomfort, and then realize that there are thousands of women out there with nearly identical experiences and far worse, and many of us are done watching people look the other way, and equivocate, and propogate myths about us, without pushing back.

octopus, you do not strike me as a person that is particularly naive about the realities of such things, and I am speaking just as much to the hardcore apologists on this board to you as I am in this particular instance. If you want to know what a typical response is from a victim of sexual abuse, you don't have to guess, there are plenty of women you can ask.

That's an excellent post and deserves a better response than I can write at the moment.

Originally Posted by Plumpudding

Agreed. They have such beautiful eyes.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/22/ff/77/2...9a52d9a72c.jpg

That is a beautiful eye. If I were king of the world octopus would be on my do not eat list.

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

It's disappointing that you keep repeating the same things which don't conflict with my criticism in any way.

Again, I don't care, at all, not a single iota, if you "want evidence" or if you're "naturally skeptical". Seriously. That's fine with me. Want evidence all you want. Be skeptical all you want. I literally could not care less what is happening in your own mind.

But you're attacking women who did nothing more than come forward and tell their stories. That's what you did. You implied that they might be dishonest, and that they should have come forward sooner. That's your words, and those words are wrong. It's not being skeptical, or wanting evidence. It's attacking women who came forward and told their stories.

Do you see that? Do you see that you just made it harder for the next women to come forward, just a tiny bit, and easier for the next abuser to attack his victims who tell the truth?

Again, you don't have to say "I believe them". You don't have to believe them. You don't have to believe anything, or do anything. But if you choose to say something, and what you say implicitly attacks these women, then shame and more shame on you. This is not about skepticism or wanting evidence. It's about making it easier for abusers to abuse, and harder for victims to come forward and tell their stories. And that's what your words, and other words from folks who attack these women, explicitly or implicitly, do.

Please don't attack women, even implicitly, just for coming forward and telling their stories. Shame on you if you continue to do this, and double shame on you if you tell others that it's okay to do this. It's not okay, and it's never okay. Please don't contribute to this ugly part of our society and culture.

I don't live in a binary reality. You can question motive and reasoning for a variety of reasons and it's perfectly legitimate. If she went to trial the questioning would be far more hostile. I'm not even being hostile. I'm legitimately curious as to why she waited 40 years. Perhaps, this is a sign of large male privilege that people talk about.

Originally Posted by wolfpup

Don't overlook the possibility that anyone who disagrees with you might be both!

I have no problem with conservatives. At all. At least, in the traditional, global sense of the word. I do have a problem with those who still cling unconditionally to the coattails of a self-serving and socially destructive Republican Party. People like you. A few snippets of track record that I could be bothered to look up:

The totally degenerate asshole Roy Moore is innocent!

An accusation of an event from 40 years ago? C’mon now. Anyone can accuse anyone of anything.

Anyone who doesn't agree is part of a lynch mob!

People can say what they wish iiandyiiii. Are you saying I shouldn’t advocate people be tried and convicted in a court of law instead of by a partisan mob?

The incredibly "unfair" media that outs Moore and Trump did everything in their power to protect Bill Clinton!

The media will do everything in their power including hypocritical outrage to help their darling win. Where was this outrage when Clinton was actually grabbing pussy in Arkansas and the White House?

... which assertion Jonathan Chance -- who was in the media at the time -- set you straight on:

That's absolute nonsense. I was a part of the feeding frenzy during the whole Monica thing. We pounded Clinton so hard it was one of those never-before never-again sort of things. Clinton got more bad press during that time than Nixon ever did during Watergate for heaven's sake.

Roy Moore and Ted Kennedy ... meh, more or less the same!
Disingenuous comparisons your speciality: a presidential candidate and some random twit -- meh, more or less the same!
Bigotry is OK as long as it's practiced at the border
Responsibility for Russian hacking? Obama, of course!
Bernie Sanders is a pervert -- and so is anyone who supports him -- because of something he wrote about the psychology of sexual fantasies ... as interpreted by a Murdoch tabloid.
Bernie Sanders is "a sickness in America".

The last two about Sanders are especially telling. He's actually no more than a mainstream liberal by the standards of first-world democracies, but by your standard, he's a "sickness" because he advocates universal health care for all citizens and a more equitable wealth distribution similar to that of European and Commonwealth democracies. From where I stand, you're a typical Republican and dishonesty is a central part of the strategy to further your self-serving objectives. The Roy Moore incident is just a typical example.

Political arguing does get partisan. But where am I advocating any form of sanction or punishment. I'm saying if the left wants to be outraged by a particular behavior from a candidate from the right then they should be just as outraged by that same behavior from the left.

What's this calling me bigoted because of a desire to enforce border law? That's just straight up wrong.

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

Here.

I'm typing this extra slow. Vinyl Turnip does not equal octopus.

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

"Civility?" You do know what forum you're in, right?

Originally Posted by cochrane

You expect civility? In the Pit? You really are a special kind of moron, aren't you?

I don't expect civility in the Pit. I expect myself not to waste too much time on Pit Deplorables.

[Spice Weasel]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Just wanted to say Spice Weasel that I really appreciate your posts - both the important content that is well articulated, and your tone which is mature, respectful and quite frankly, amazing.

You're a good person.

Thank you. It is exhausting.

I should probably add that I'm in no way implying my response is going to be the same as any other person's. Based on my overall grounding in trauma psychology and particularly what I've learned working at the shelter, I can generalize about how most people respond, but how any individual responds to any given incident will vary dramatically.

There was a recent article where a woman interviewed the man who sexually assaulted her so many years before. She was a teenager at the time, and he started feeling her up while she was laying in bed. As he recalled, once the shock of what he was doing wore off, she responded something to the effect of, ''If you touch me again I'll break your fucking arm.''

She then immediately told everyone - and they were supportive. He was pressured into taking some consent training by his friends and spent the rest of his life feeling bad about it.

I cannot fathom any of that, but it's no less real of an experience. It seems almost superhuman to me to not only recognize that you're being done wrong in the moment, but to trust your own judgment about it and fight back. In fact, I not only had difficulty saying no to my abuse, I had difficulty saying no to anything at all, even with people I was attracted to, to the point that I broke up with my junior high boyfriend because it was easier for me to break up with him than to verbalize that I didn't want his hand on my knee. The only man in my life who even seemed to notice my discomfort was my husband. He always knows, he always stops, and he never makes me feel like it's my fault. There are so many reasons I worship the ground he walks on, but that would be a big one.

I recognize that ''assault survivors behave all sorts of legitimate ways'' really throws a wrench into the works when you're trying to decide what you think about an accusation, but I can't change that, only point it out. It's a complex issue. I am very much a context-based person and I can't offer a one-sized fits all solution. I can only appeal for honest reflection before you say something that might hurt someone.

[splatterpunk]

Originally Posted by octopus

Octo-mouth? what is this 3rd grade? Beckatwerp? Whatever.

FFS, look who's talking. You use the term potty mouth unironically. What are you, six?

[bobot]

Originally Posted by Beckdawrek

Here.

I could be wrong, but I believe he operative word is "suckers".

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by splatterpunk

FFS, look who's talking. You use the term potty mouth unironically. What are you, six?

And in the Pit, too. The guy posts in the Pit and complains that people are rude and use bad language.

[Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

The guy posts in the Pit and complains that people are rude and use bad language.

Terrkrahoma did the same thing. More than one sock, perchance?

[E-DUB]

I'm from Detroit. Octopi get thrown onto the ice before hockey games.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by octopus

I don't live in a binary reality. You can question motive and reasoning for a variety of reasons and it's perfectly legitimate. If she went to trial the questioning would be far more hostile. I'm not even being hostile. I'm legitimately curious as to why she waited 40 years. Perhaps, this is a sign of large male privilege that people talk about.

Dude. You just read a long and thoughtful post from a survivor of abuse about the hell that can come in the aftermath, for days and months and years and decades. And you still think it's okay to publicly question their motives and honesty, without the slightest shred of evidence of dishonesty?

Because that's what you did. Someone did that to pretty much every survivor of abuse who has ever had the courage to come forward, and some of them just hid it away after that for the rest of their lives because of responses like yours.

Moore and other accused abusers don't need your help. If someone is lying about them (and recall that Moore, today, when asked if he dated girls as young as his accusers, said "not generally, no"), they are in the best position to discover and expose it. All you're doing (when you have no evidence of dishonesty) is potentially adding to the pain and horror of victims, again and again, just for coming forward and telling their story. Why would you want to do that? Why would you want to risk hurting victims, again, at such a vulnerable time as risking coming forward and accusing a public and powerful figure?

[Ulfreida]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Yeah. So long, suckers!

for the win.

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by octopus

I don't expect civility in the Pit. I expect myself not to waste too much time on Pit Deplorables.

You're fucking long-winded, too.

[Spice Weasel]

I'm not inside the victim’s head but the most plausible reason I can think of is that she had every reason to think she wouldn't be believed until this point. Assuming she even could name what happened at the time, and didn't blame herself, as a fourteen year old likely would blame herself, perhaps she recognized that there was little justice for her and tried to forget and move on. Maybe she got pressure from her family to keep it quiet. Maybe her family found out and told her she was a slut and it was her fault. Maybe she was only afraid that would happen because she was so ashamed. Or maybe it was just too painful to think about. All of those reasons for a victim staying silent are relatively common.

We're in a strange probably fleeting moment of the media where people are pretending to, or maybe actually really giving a shit about powerful men abusing their power. Lots of people have felt empowered to speak and have come forward. Maybe one of these stories resonated with the victim, or made her see her experience for what it was, and given the current climate she decided to come forward along with all the other women and men. That seems most likely to me.

iiiandyiiii I appreciate your support but given that I just told octopus to ask if he didn't understand a behavior, it's not really fair to beat up on him for asking. There's a difference between reinforcing rape mythology and just trying to understand.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by cochrane

You're fucking long-winded, too.

Uh oh, watch that potty mouth!

[John Mace]

Keep in mind that she met him voluntarily. He pursued her, but she agree to meet up with him surreptitiously (if I'm reading the stories correctly). So, yeah, she probably thought she might be in BIG TROUBLE, sneaking around to meet up with some 30 year old guy. It does't surprise me at all that she kept her mouth shut about it.

Hey Dad, I just thought I'd let you know that I met up with my "boyfriend" yesterday and that he might be one of the men in your 4-some on the golf course this weekend. You're cool with that, right?

[Spice Weasel]

I'll add that trauma psychology expert Judith Herman in her groundbreaking research-based work Trauma and Recovery identified a critical part of healing from any trauma as "speaking the unspeakable." That's what I see all of these victims as doing. When we talk about breaking the silence, we're not only talking about a public act. We're talking about combatting the muteness inside of us, and the blindness, we are shining light on the stuff that scares the shit out of us until it is too familiar to be scary. I am 34 years old, I have been in therapy for freaking ever, I have rehashed this narrative for years and I have never been able to really look at the actual abuse under that shining light until this year. I still don't understand it. How can you have the cognitive capacity to define something enough to describe and advocate against it, and yet still have a part of your brain that doesn't understand? Cognitive dissonance was my default state as a teen and it's like I'm still stuck there. I'm still stuck there asking "what is this?" And why? And how? A lifetime of studying trauma psychology and it doesn't matter, I am just struck dumb.

I'm getting emotional now.