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  #151  
Old 06-15-2019, 03:40 PM
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I believe He would treat them as they treated the least of His children. If they fed them when they were hungry, gave them drink when they thirsted, and visited them when they were imprisoned. And when they were surprised by that, he would say something to them that is none of my business. If I am walking on this earth when He returns, I will not be thinking about the state of anyone's soul but be joyful that He will forgive me for falling short of perfection, and treat me as I have treated His children as well.

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  #152  
Old 06-15-2019, 04:11 PM
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Maybe.
...
Paul here calls out a woman for being a great deacon, and several other women for being apostles, and who work hard for the Lord.
Do you have a citation for a deacon preaching in the church? The deacons were originally the hands of the church, not the speakers. Stephen is identified as one who preached to the unconverted, but there is no reference to him speaking to the collected Christians. I am open to correction on that point, but I am pretty sure that none of the women identified by Paul were preaching to other Christians.

Now, the passages you identified may have been a later insertion. I am not going to go looking it up, tonight. However, long before that suggestion was made, it had seemed that Paul was basing his remarks, (all of his remarks regarding women), on the Jewish practices in the synagogue and society at that time and that his remarks were current cultural practice and not orders from God.
  #153  
Old 06-15-2019, 06:01 PM
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Do you have a citation for a deacon preaching in the church? The deacons were originally the hands of the church, not the speakers. Stephen is identified as one who preached to the unconverted, but there is no reference to him speaking to the collected Christians. I am open to correction on that point, but I am pretty sure that none of the women identified by Paul were preaching to other Christians.

Now, the passages you identified may have been a later insertion. I am not going to go looking it up, tonight. However, long before that suggestion was made, it had seemed that Paul was basing his remarks, (all of his remarks regarding women), on the Jewish practices in the synagogue and society at that time and that his remarks were current cultural practice and not orders from God.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/theol...eacons-history
What, then, did these women deacons do? Not surprisingly, they played different roles in different times and places. This is true of all of the orders in the church. Church structure has changed throughout history to meet to the needs of the time...The roles that all these women held in common seem to have been the reading of the Gospel, preaching and teaching. Some played liturgical roles, particularly in the East. These roles paralleled the roles played by male deacons and that is why, of course, the women were called deacons at all. One was not likely to call them deacons unless they did what deacons do.

Apart from this, however, women deacons played different roles in the many different societies and time periods in which they existed. Some women deacons were married and had children; some were married, but had chaste marriages to male deacons; some were never married and were more like nuns today.



https://www.futurechurch.org/sites/d...%20Deacons.pdf
The evolution of womenís ministerial leadership in early Christianity is a complex phenomenon. It is well documented that even though our earliest writings (Romans 16) give evidence that women served in apostolic ministerial roles
alongside their brothers, over the next three centuries their public ministry was
increasingly circumscribed. .... Not surprisingly, there is also evidence that they exercised significant political, liturgical and administrative leadership within the earliest Christian communities, including presiding at Eucharist in their homes, at least during the late first
and early second centuries.1 In some places, including Rome, enrolled widows
were accepted as a part of the clergy, though male church leaders soon sought
to control their ministry in both the east and the west.
In the early third century, Hippolytus of Romeís treatise The Apostolic Tradition,
forbade the ordination of widows. This is the first known proscription of womenís
ordination and it almost certainly means widows were being ordained, or why the
need for a rule? ....4
On the other hand, a late fourth or early fifth century church order, the Testamentum Domini (from eastern churches in Syria, Asia Minor or Egypt) not only permits widows to be ordained, but identifies them as part of the Church hierarchy.
While it distinguishes between deaconesses, widows and female presbyters, the
greatest responsibility and honor belong to the widows. Clearly, there was significant diversity in the early church about womenís leadership roles. That said,
in late antiquity it is important to distinguish between sacramental ministry and
female ordination, liturgical ministry and membership in the clergy as these are
not one and the same. For example, while the Testamentum Domini attests that
women were ordained and belonged to the clergy, scholars do not believe they
exercised sacramental ministry in the sense of presiding at Eucharist or baptizing, ..
.
  #154  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:47 AM
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I would love for there to be enough documentary evidence to simply accept women in all roles of ministry including sacramental and administrative. To date, I have seen only implied references to limited locations. And, I suspect, even in places where it occurred, it probably disappeared because of societal factors (driving the opinions of male authorities).
Jesus did not choose any women among the twelve.
In all of Paul's references to women, they are providing physical support.
In the letters to Timothy and Titus and the catholic letters of John, there are no references to women sharing in administrative or sacramental roles.
The references in the Didache (a first century document) refer to men and not to people or women.

Until we get clearer indications that women participated in all roles, my response to the question posed by Annie-Xmas is that Paul's statements were driven by the cultural milieu in which he was raised and lived and were not direct orders from God.
Just as world economics has steered Christianity and Judaism away from the original prohibitions regarding the lending of money, societal changes, today, may steer us away from rules imposed regarding the roles of women in the church, regardless whether some factions were more open 1900 years ago..
  #155  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:06 PM
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Suppose you, a Christian, read the Koran. As a non-believer, would you have the right to ask questions and have opinions about what you were reading? Would you have the right to ask what would Mohammed think or do about a particular subject? Would your non-belief disqualify any such questions?
I have known Muslims and have asked them questions yes. However I dont tell them that I know what Mohammed would do or approve of because I am an outsider.
  #156  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:14 PM
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I have known Muslims and have asked them questions yes. However I dont tell them that I know what Mohammed would do or approve of because I am an outsider.
The only thing I get from your response is that you can't tell the difference between an outsider asking a question and an outsider giving an answer.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 06-17-2019 at 02:15 PM.
  #157  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:16 PM
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I would love for there to be enough documentary evidence to simply accept women in all roles of ministry including sacramental and administrative. To date, I have seen only implied references to limited locations. And, I suspect, even in places where it occurred, it probably disappeared because of societal factors (driving the opinions of male authorities).
Jesus did not choose any women among the twelve.
In all of Paul's references to women, they are providing physical support.
In the letters to Timothy and Titus and the catholic letters of John, there are no references to women sharing in administrative or sacramental roles.
The references in the Didache (a first century document) refer to men and not to people or women.

Until we get clearer indications that women participated in all roles, my response to the question posed by Annie-Xmas is that Paul's statements were driven by the cultural milieu in which he was raised and lived and were not direct orders from God.
Just as world economics has steered Christianity and Judaism away from the original prohibitions regarding the lending of money, societal changes, today, may steer us away from rules imposed regarding the roles of women in the church, regardless whether some factions were more open 1900 years ago..
I am not sure about all of that but consider Jesus DID include women in his ministry for example, the Samaritan woman at the well. Its interesting that his conversation with her was the longest ever recorded in the bible to one person. He talked to her, proved his authority, and used her to bring others to him.

There was also the example of the widow and her 3 mites where Jesus showed that her example showed a greater level of sacrifice and devotion than the rich men were doing.

Jesus also made note of different womens devotion such as the Martha who anointed his head with oil and spent time at his feet learning from him rather than her sisters insistence on working in the kitchen.

After Jesus's resurrection the first people Jesus appeared to were 2 women.

So women were there and Jesus noted there service all along.
  #158  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:20 PM
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No; then it is up to you to accept that not everyone is a Christian.

Bear in mind that there are people who are equally as certain as you are about what God wants, but who are certain that God does not want them to be Christians. Many of them are certain that God doesn't want you to be a Christian either.

And that is leaving out all the people who are certain that they can't very well accept the guidance of something that doesn't exist.
Sure, I can accept that everyone can choose their own paths to follow. Jesus also talked to people in general such as telling soldiers to be content with their wages and for the tax collectors to only collect the fair amount.

PS. You dont know God doesnt exist. You cannot disprove it anymore than I can prove it.
  #159  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:24 PM
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So, if Jesus were to return, what do you think he would do or say in regard to gay people?
I dont know. Do you?

Now I would ask that what if after becoming a Christian ANY person who feels convicted that something they were doing is a sin, should they be allowed to change if they feel God is telling them to?
  #160  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:28 PM
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I dont know. Do you?
I asked you what you think he would do or say. You don't know what you think?
  #161  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:30 PM
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He's a die hard atheist. Hard core.
So I doubt anything I can say would change his mind just like noted atheist Christopher Hitchens whom I heard once say while nobody could prove to him there was a God, he also could not prove there wasnt one either. He also came up with Hitchen's razor.

He died in 2011 so I guess he found his answer.
  #162  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:35 PM
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So I doubt anything I can say would change his mind just like noted atheist Christopher Hitchens whom I heard once say while nobody could prove to him there was a God, he also could not prove there wasnt one either. He also came up with Hitchen's razor.

He died in 2011 so I guess he found his answer.
Answering a direct question instead of insisting that only Christians have the right to ask questions about Christ or replying to questions not asked might have an influence.
  #163  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:47 PM
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And that is leaving out all the people who are certain that they can't very well accept the guidance of something that doesn't exist.
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PS. You dont know God doesnt exist. You cannot disprove it anymore than I can prove it.
Aside from any questions of defining God and of arguments for and against the existence of any God meeting a specific definition: I didn't say anything about proof. I was talking about certainty. Humans are perfectly capable of being certain about things they don't have any proof for. There are people who are just as certain that God doesn't exist as anyone else is certain that God exists; just as there are people who are equally certain that God wants everybody to follow some specific branch of Christianity as others are certain that God wants people to follow another branch of Christianity, or to follow Islam, or to follow something else entirely.
  #164  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:55 PM
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I am not sure about all of that but consider Jesus DID include women in his ministry for example, the Samaritan woman at the well. Its interesting that his conversation with her was the longest ever recorded in the bible to one person. He talked to her, proved his authority, and used her to bring others to him.

There was also the example of the widow and her 3 mites where Jesus showed that her example showed a greater level of sacrifice and devotion than the rich men were doing.

Jesus also made note of different womens devotion such as the Martha who anointed his head with oil and spent time at his feet learning from him rather than her sisters insistence on working in the kitchen.

After Jesus's resurrection the first people Jesus appeared to were 2 women.

So women were there and Jesus noted there service all along.
There is, or should be, no question that Jewish and Christian women of the first century provided service. The issue which I was addressing was whether women were permitted to preach and the evidence for or against such a claim.
My position is that I do not believe we have sufficient evidence for women preaching in the Christian community and that, as Christianity was a Jewish heresy, it most likely did not provide that opportunity. I have no problem with women engaging in all occupations, today, and I do not believe that my position is unassailable--provided further evidence s provided.
  #165  
Old 06-17-2019, 04:08 PM
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So I doubt anything I can say would change his mind just like noted atheist Christopher Hitchens whom I heard once say while nobody could prove to him there was a God, he also could not prove there wasnt one either. He also came up with Hitchen's razor.

He died in 2011 so I guess he found his answer.
if there is no god he did not find his answer, only if there is one did he find an answer
  #166  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:08 PM
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Answering a direct question instead of insisting that only Christians have the right to ask questions about Christ or replying to questions not asked might have an influence.
Or perhaps he only answers questions which he feels are sincere.
  #167  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:10 PM
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Or perhaps he only answers questions which he feels are sincere.
There is that excuse too, I suppose.
  #168  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:11 PM
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There is, or should be, no question that Jewish and Christian women of the first century provided service. The issue which I was addressing was whether women were permitted to preach and the evidence for or against such a claim.
My position is that I do not believe we have sufficient evidence for women preaching in the Christian community and that, as Christianity was a Jewish heresy, it most likely did not provide that opportunity. I have no problem with women engaging in all occupations, today, and I do not believe that my position is unassailable--provided further evidence s provided.
I think my two cites make it clear that women did in fact provide service. True, Originally Christianity was a Jewish heresy, but Paul changed all that when he reached out to the gentiles, and didnt require circumcision, dietary laws, and what not.
  #169  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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There is that excuse too, I suppose.
Well, in my opinion, your questions are not sincere. I feel you seek to get him to make a answer which you would mock.
  #170  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:30 PM
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Well, in my opinion, your questions are not sincere. I feel you seek to get him to make a answer which you would mock.
What is so convenient about comments like this is that as long an actual response to a question is withheld I have no possible way to prove you wrong. Your accusation is out there for all to see, and the actual answer to the question asked never has to be answered.
  #171  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:56 AM
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What is so convenient about comments like this is that as long an actual response to a question is withheld I have no possible way to prove you wrong.
Interesting that your objection to when you are Just Asking Questions is that your purpose is to prove him wrong. Maybe that's different from a question that isn't sincere, but it's close.

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality, and the only references known to any sexual sin was that He condemned it - adultery specifically, sexual immorality which is more generic but possibly included fornication, divorce (although one quote is absolute and others are more equivocal). The subject of homosexuality never came up, either because Jesus or the Gospel writers took it for granted, or because the subject was more or less unthinkable. It's like abortion - it just wasn't a thing.

It is sort of reminiscent of arguments about whether the First Amendment applies to the Internet and TV, or the Second only to flintlock muskets. Except you can't amend Scripture, and there is no Supreme Court to decide.

Regards,
Shodan
  #172  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:27 AM
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Except you can't amend Scripture, and there is no Supreme Court to decide.
Religions amend scripture through the use of interpretation-every single one of them.
  #173  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:37 AM
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Interesting that your objection to when you are Just Asking Questions is that your purpose is to prove him wrong.
Would you mind rewording this, because it makes it sound like I said that my purpose is to prove him wrong-I never said this. I never implied this. It wasn't my intention at all to prove him or anyone else wrong when I asked this question.
  #174  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:33 AM
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Well, I can try. What you objected to was that you had no possible way to prove him wrong.

I assume "I" meant you and "prove him wrong" meant prove him wrong.

Regards,
Shodan
  #175  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:40 AM
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Well, in my opinion, your questions are not sincere. I feel you seek to get him to make a answer which you would mock.
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What is so convenient about comments like this is that as long an actual response to a question is withheld I have no possible way to prove you wrong. Your accusation is out there for all to see, and the actual answer to the question asked never has to be answered.
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Well, I can try. What you objected to was that you had no possible way to prove him wrong.

I assume "I" meant you and "prove him wrong" meant prove him wrong.

Regards,
Shodan
I am (obviously) not Czarcasm. But that reads quite clearly to me not as a desire to prove the person wrong who the genuine question was originally asked of, but as a desire to prove wrong DrDeth's accusation of insincerity in asking it.
  #176  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:54 AM
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I am (obviously) not Czarcasm. But that reads quite clearly to me not as a desire to prove the person wrong who the genuine question was originally asked of, but as a desire to prove wrong DrDeth's accusation of insincerity in asking it.
Exactly.
  #177  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:09 PM
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I am (obviously) not Czarcasm. But that reads quite clearly to me not as a desire to prove the person wrong who the genuine question was originally asked of, but as a desire to prove wrong DrDeth's accusation of insincerity in asking it.
I am basing my objections and opinions on Czarcasm's long history here of "Just Asking Question" whose purpose IMHO is to mock Christians and Christianity. He is a die hard atheist, he wont deny that.
  #178  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:20 PM
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I am basing my objections and opinions on Czarcasm's long history here of "Just Asking Question" whose purpose IMHO is to mock Christians and Christianity. He is a die hard atheist, he wont deny that.
I think you are basing your response on the image of me you would like people to believe. You repeatedly make this accusation, then point to the times you make this accusation as some sort of evidence that the accusation is true. Deny I am a "die hard atheist"? I don't even know what you mean by that term. I am an atheist because I have yet to see any evidence as to the existence of any gods-is that what you mean by "die hard atheist"?

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  #179  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:27 PM
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An important element of the Just Asking Questions approach is not to post, nor try to defend, a substantive position of your own. If that is not what you are doing, then what you said earlier about not having any way to prove that you're not doing it is untrue. You could easily prove it by posting and explaining your answer to the OP, and your reasons for believing it. I don't see that you have done that yet - just something about loving the one you're with, and there is no evidence that Jesus ever said anything of the sort.

So, go ahead - since you are not Just Asking Questions, put forth a position and defend it.

Regards,
Shodan
  #180  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:41 PM
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An important element of the Just Asking Questions approach is not to post, nor try to defend, a substantive position of your own. If that is not what you are doing, then what you said earlier about not having any way to prove that you're not doing it is untrue. You could easily prove it by posting and explaining your answer to the OP, and your reasons for believing it. I don't see that you have done that yet - just something about loving the one you're with, and there is no evidence that Jesus ever said anything of the sort.

So, go ahead - since you are not Just Asking Questions, put forth a position and defend it.

Regards,
Shodan
I am not holding a position that needs to be defended. I am curious as to how those that profess to be Christian answer the question posed in the OP. I don't know if I am supposed to defend being curious, or I am supposed to tell you what I, an atheist, think Jesus would say or do about gay people if he came back.
So tell me-Are you asking me the first asinine question, the second asinine question, or both asinine questions?
  #181  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:11 PM
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I am not holding a position that needs to be defended. I am curious as to how those that profess to be Christian answer the question posed in the OP. ....
It's a Great Debate. You are not debating, you are not holding forth a position. You are indeed, "Just Asking Questions".

What is your position?



https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
  #182  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:16 PM
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It's a Great Debate. You are not debating, you are not holding forth a position. You are indeed, "Just Asking Questions".

What is your position?



https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
No more. This thread isn't about me or your accusations about me. I am curious about what Christians of various persuasions make of the OP's question, period.
  #183  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:17 PM
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No more. This thread isn't about me or your accusations about me. I am curious about what Christians of various persuasions make of the OP's question, period.

So, what is your position in this debate?

Make a position and stand by it. Dont "Just ask Questions".
  #184  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:26 PM
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Congratulations. Deth, Czarcasm? You both got reported for being jerks.

Both of you back down, now. Otherwise, Iíll close the thread and warn you both.
  #185  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:29 PM
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Fair enough.
  #186  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:32 PM
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Congratulations. Deth, Czarcasm? You both got reported for being jerks.

Both of you back down, now. Otherwise, Iíll close the thread and warn you both.
What? Wanting to know the opinion of a poster, and defending yourself against people who think asking for that opinion is somehow bad means "being a jerk"?
  #187  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:39 PM
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O.k.
BTW, I thought it was obvious that my supposed Jesus quote:
Quote:
If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.
wasn't real-I gather from responses in this thread and a couple of PMs that there are still people out there that haven't heard Stephen Still's "Love The One Your With".
  #188  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:42 PM
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What? Wanting to know the opinion of a poster, and defending yourself against people who think asking for that opinion is somehow bad means "being a jerk"?
To be fair, there was a bit of anger and frustration in post #180.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
After Jesus's resurrection the first people Jesus appeared to were 2 women.
Because they went to tend to his body, which I think female family members were supposed to do. He didn't go to them.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
To be fair, there was a bit of anger and frustration in post #180.
I missed the "asinine" portions before

My question still stands though.
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Old 06-18-2019, 02:53 PM
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I missed the "asinine" portions before

My question still stands though.
Questions about moderation go in ATMB. No more in this thread.
[/moderating]
  #192  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:02 PM
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Three religious groups that hold some sway-Focus On The Family, First Baptist of Dallas and The Billy Graham Evangelical Organization-say that Jesus does indeed condemn homosexuality.
  #193  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:13 PM
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Three religious groups that hold some sway-Focus On The Family, First Baptist of Dallas and The Billy Graham Evangelical Organization-say that Jesus does indeed condemn homosexuality.
You can find a religious or political group for any extremist view.
  #194  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:20 PM
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You can find a religious or political group for any extremist view.
That is true...but how many influential Christian groups have to hold this position before it stops being an extremist view and begins to be the norm?
  #195  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
BTW, I thought it was obvious that my supposed Jesus quote:

wasn't real-I gather from responses in this thread and a couple of PMs that there are still people out there that haven't heard Stephen Still's "Love The One Your With".
But Mr. Stills knew how to spell "you're".


Czarcasm, if you would just get down on your knees and sincerely pray to him, God would surely inspire you with the knowledge of spelling, grammar, & diction. (Assuming He wasn't too busy smiting adulterers, idolaters, sabbath-breakers, shellfish-eaters, tattoo-wearers, and gays.)

Last edited by Bone; 06-18-2019 at 03:29 PM. Reason: fixed quote attribution
  #196  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:53 AM
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If thatís the case, shouldn't celibacy be as big a sin as homosexuality?
No. Celibacy is to be celebrated, chastity to be precise. Anything that distracts a person from contemplation of and devotion to the Almighty is, by definition, bad. Recognizing that people are gonna fuck he gave sex within marriage, between a man and a woman, as the slightly lesser of two evils.

Remember that in it's conception and early incarnation Christianity was explicitly apocalyptic. God's kingdom would be established on Earth in the immediate (50 or so years) future. He would not have considered the procreative requirements that sex fulfills because he sincerely believed that there would be no need for it.

I dislike Paul and ignore him entirely in my own personal theology.

As for Jesus, given what he is reputed to have said, I would guess that he would treat the individual with acceptance and compassion. I think he would suggest that they amend their ways and, if they didn't, I think he would grieve for their coming damnation.

I would like to think that Jesus would have been more 21st century enlightened than 1st century enlightened but what are you gonna do? You live in the age you are born to.

21st century Jesus, I'm sure, would see that love, even expressed physically, between two people is not something to be condemned.
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Old 06-19-2019, 11:04 AM
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I am a Christian. I am a Lutheran. I believe I may know the answer (though indicating one knows the will of God completely is somewhat presumptuous). I believe what were see in Acts 10 is not just about food but about people. Do not call anything unclean that the Lord has made clean and then Peter was told to go eat with a Gentile Centurion - unclean. The folks in Jerusalem were scandalized - but after the story was told they accepted it. LGBTQ people are made clean by God. They don't have sex with the same gender due to excessive lust (as was thought by then) but because they were created that way. Jesus would love then and stand by them as he did with other marginalized.

God sent the Holy Spirit for just this reason - to continue to educate us about God when we are ready to hear the Truth.

So that's the answer I think I know as a practicing Christian. What's yours?

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Adam and Eve were naked in the garden of Eden but it didn't bother them because they were innocent. Once they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they became ashamed of their nakedness. Their bodies were the source of their first shame - not disobeying and stealing from God.

Since one is seldom ashamed of the good one must conclude that the human body as created by God only retains "goodness" when it is in His present grace.
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