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Old 02-09-2020, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Kafkatrap. Your definition of racism is spurious. To insinuate that disagreeing with your definition of racism is, in itself, evidence of racism is just a ploy designed to place your definition beyond criticism. Importantly, this isn’t a fallacy, it’s a deliberately dishonest tactic intended to relieve you of the burden of actually justifying your definition. I see you.
It's not just my definition of racism; I am paraphrasing a definition of racism that people who have experienced racism have expressed in the past - perhaps on SDMB, perhaps not, but certainly elsewhere. You do realize that racism is an experience, so any definition of racism shouldn't be limited to whatever you find on Google or dictionary.com's website. It's an experience, which means that people who've had that experience ought to be the ones who define what it means to feel racism and what racism really is, not you.

If your female friend is raped and she tells you that she has a hard time trusting men -- all men -- and that men suck, is she a sexist? Is she a misandrist? If you say "Hey, I understand that you were raped, but you shouldn't hold all men responsible," what would her response be?

Here's the takeaway: There are situations in which indiscriminate anger is actually a very rational feeling and response to being violated. I'm sorry you don't like it, and it's uncomfortable for me to read, see, and hear is well. But I'm not going to tell people that they can't, within reasonable boundaries, express that frustration from time to time. If we want to say that there's a time and a place, I can probably agree with that. Maybe the debate or politics forums weren't the place, but I think that if we're really and truly interested in fighting ignorance, let's be a little more flexible in allowing people who've experienced racism firsthand to explain to the rest of us who've not had that experience what racism means to them, on their terms, not yours.

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Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Say, funny story. A black person just told me that the true definition of racism is ”anything asahi says or does from now until the end of time”.
A silly-ass example because no person who's experienced racism uses that definition and everyone reading this thread knows it.
  #52  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:28 AM
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I'm not sure if the line needs to be further defined, but the post definitely veered much further into unacceptability than the usual "lol white men amirite?" microaggressions that happen every day at the Dope. I'd like to see less of those, but it's difficult to say which ones are over the line because each individual microaggression is not big enough to warrant moderation by itself (as opposed to the post we're discussing here.)
Oh, when it's about white men, suddenly "microaggression" isn't just woke SJW-speak. Cool, cool, good to know...
  #53  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi
If your female friend is raped and she tells you that she has a hard time trusting men -- all men -- and that men suck, is she a sexist? Is she a misandrist? If you say "Hey, I understand that you were raped, but you shouldn't hold all men responsible," what would her response be?
Yes. She’s sexist. The sexism is ameliorated by the trauma, but that doesn’t mean it’s not sexism, it doesn’t mean she’s justified, and it doesn’t mean she’s beyond criticism. Lots of rape victims in the world. Most of them aren’t bigots.

Question for you: If she was white, and she got raped by a black man, and had a hard time trusting black men, and went out of her way to avoid being alone with them, would she be a racist? Or would the fact she was raped by a black man mean she simply couldn’t be racist to them and her avoidant behaviour was justified and couldn’t be criticised?

I noticed you didn’t answer my questions from earlier. Should a Palestinian poster have free rein to call Jews a disease because of the “history and context” of the West Bank Settlement program? Would an Irish poster be free to call English posters diseased because of the troubles? If a gay ex-Muslim escapes a country where being gay carries a death sentence, is he allowed to call Muslims backward savages? If not, why not? His trauma is every bit as real as the trauma of your rape victim. So if she can generalise about an entire diverse group then why can’t he?

These are just a few examples I came up with off the top of my head. I could give you a thousand more. And please note you’re the only one who has to answer these questions. You’re the only one who has to break out a graph book and do these weird oppression equations to figure out where you stand. I don’t. I have a simple rule: Generalising about a racial, religious, or gender identity is always wrong. No exceptions. Some instances may be more wrong than others, but all are wrong to greater or lesser degrees and all should be condemned. And anyone who thinks otherwise can just go fuck themselves. Their input isn’t needed. It’s a good rule, and what it lacks in pointless hairsplitting it makes up for in simplicity, directness, and effectiveness.

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 02-09-2020 at 11:27 AM.
  #54  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It's not just my definition of racism; I am paraphrasing a definition of racism that people who have experienced racism have expressed in the past - perhaps on SDMB, perhaps not, but certainly elsewhere. You do realize that racism is an experience, so any definition of racism shouldn't be limited to whatever you find on Google or dictionary.com's website. It's an experience, which means that people who've had that experience ought to be the ones who define what it means to feel racism and what racism really is, not you.
And you're exacerbating the obfuscation by conflating two different sense of the word "meaning". Yes, only people who have experienced something can know what it "means" in the sense of what it feels like. But that's a different sense of the word "meaning" than semantic meaning, and the notion that only somebody who has experienced something may have anything valid to say about clarity of language is complete nonsense. If someone says that they were bit by a stray dog, but it turns out it was a feral coyote, must we start calling coyotes dogs?

In any event, the well-known attempt to re-define the word racism (contrary to common usage) to mean something like "prejudice+power" did not arise from some grass-roots groundswell of opinion among POC, it was an explicit effort by social theory academics. The intent was to restrict the use of the word racism to mean only institutional racism. Under this redefinition, if we say that POC cannot be racist, what that means is that no individual person can change the entire cultural mileu and redistribute power, whatever they say or do. Of course that's true.

But the problem is, this is not the common definition of racism. The common definition encompasses the chosen disposition of an individual person, something that is under their individual control. So it's extremely common for people to hear "POC cannot be racist" under the academic re-definition, and infer that this means POC cannot be racist in the colloquial sense of racism, that a POC cannot (as individuals) choose whether or not to have a racist disposition, something that is clearly nonsense.

Last edited by Riemann; 02-09-2020 at 11:37 AM.
  #55  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi
A silly-ass example because no person who’s experienced racism uses that definition and everyone reading this thread knows it.
It’s true that no-one uses my definition. But almost no-one uses yours, so they’re not that different.

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 02-09-2020 at 11:43 AM.
  #56  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:50 AM
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It’s true that no-one uses my definition. But almost no-one uses yours, so they’re not that different.
Almost nobody you know, that is.

Accuracy matters.
  #57  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:52 AM
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Oh, when it's about white men, suddenly "microaggression" isn't just woke SJW-speak. Cool, cool, good to know...
Yeah, I caught that as well.

lol
  #58  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Almost nobody you know, that is.

Accuracy matters.
Your definition of racism is pretty well unheard of outside academia.
  #59  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:57 AM
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Yes. She’s sexist. The sexism is ameliorated by the trauma, but that doesn’t mean it’s not sexism, it doesn’t mean she’s justified, and it doesn’t mean she’s beyond criticism. Lots of rape victims in the world. Most of them aren’t bigots.
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Old 02-09-2020, 12:01 PM
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Your definition of racism is pretty well unheard of outside academia.
That might be true, but that doesn't make it invalid.

There was a time when education, trying to view things outside of the usual mainstream perspective was considered a good thing.

Times have changed, I reckon. White people, the ones who perpetrate racism, are the victims, and black people who voice frustration at living with racism are the racists.

Ignorance fought.
  #61  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:19 PM
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This is real ridiculous,iiandyiiii. You are confused about why a post that uses deliberately dehumanizing language and cheers the day white people are out bred might get a warning? Oh dear, will this effect my ability to criticize "whiteness?
  #62  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:23 PM
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This is real ridiculous,iiandyiiii. You are confused about why a post that uses deliberately dehumanizing language and cheers the day white people are out bred might get a warning? Oh dear, will this effect my ability to criticize "whiteness?
I ask some specific questions in the OP and later on, and I don't think you're really understanding them. Hard as it may be to accept, some people really do approach these things and think about them quite differently than you do, and it might take some real effort to try and understand the point of view of such folks. Dismissing out of hand points of view that seem ridiculous to you at first is easy, but it might be more rewarding to express a more open mind and consider that maybe these are just honest and substantive disagreements and different approaches.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-09-2020 at 12:27 PM.
  #63  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:29 PM
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Times have changed, I reckon. White people, the ones who perpetrate racism, are the victims, and black people who voice frustration at living with racism are the racists.
This is a pathetically weak straw man. Are you incapable of discussing an issue without blatantly misrepresenting and smearing anyone who disagrees with you? Are you not capable of grasping that others can agree with you about the fundamental reality of social injustice, yet disagree with your dogmatic view of the problem?

If you are only willing to listen to the opinion of POC on issues of race and racism, and only women on gender bigotry and oppression, try this:

Quote:
Can blacks be racist? The answer, of course, will depend on how you define racism. If you define it as "prejudice against or hatred toward another race," then the answer is yes. If you define racism as "the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race," the answer is yes. And if you define racism as "prejudice and discrimination rooted in race-based loathing," then the answer is, again, yes. However, if you define racism as "a system of group privilege by those who have a disproportionate share of society’s power, prestige, property, and privilege," then the answer is no. In the end, it is my opinion that individual blacks can be and sometimes are racists. However, collectively, blacks are neither the primary creators nor beneficiaries of the racism that permeates society today.
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...[the redefinition of racism to mean only prejudice+power or institutional racism] divests black people of being the agents of their own destiny and reduces them yet again to the status of perennial victims needing special treatment..."special dispensation status" feeds into a notion of passivity, of being solely acted upon and of not being positive agents of change in one's own destiny, thus contributing to the notion that we are not masters of our own fate. Hence we persist in acting out the role of mere victims and pawns. That is something I will never advocate to the young people I mentor.
Quote:
Carlos Hoyt, Jr. argues that the revised definition [racism to mean only prejudice+power] "charges white people with being de facto racists ... while providing an exemption to black people from being held accountable for racist beliefs". He advises that teachers use more specific, nuanced terms, such as "Race-based Oppression" or "Institutional Race-based Oppression"
Quote:
[Prejudice+Power] has legitimized overt race- and gender-based hate speech; if it’s okay to say hateful things about white men, the claim that it’s not okay to say them about other groups becomes tenuous. It has lent credibility to claims that whites, especially straight white men, are under attack. It has subverted the moral authority of anti-racism—and of liberalism (in the classic sense), dismissed in current progressive discourse as "a philosophy of white male domination." And it has so trivialized the concepts of bigotry and racism that they have lost much of their stigma.
My bold. All sources here:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prejudice_plus_power
  #64  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:31 PM
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Nm

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-09-2020 at 12:31 PM.
  #65  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:32 PM
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This has moved pretty well outside of the bounds of ATMB. Anyone who wishes to debate what is or is not racism is free to start a new thread in GD. This is closed.
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