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  #51  
Old 02-01-2020, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Yes, that has worked swell every time it's been tried.
That is true -- experienced diplomats and negotiators haven't been able to come up with a solution. So now, we are also able to say that a solution eludes a feckless inexperienced rich guy with an agenda.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 02-01-2020 at 12:17 PM.
  #52  
Old 02-01-2020, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
I see I managed to mangle another thread title.
First priority is to get rid of the motherfuckin snakes.
  #53  
Old 02-02-2020, 03:32 PM
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So the Palestinians get:
  • A "High-tech manufacturing industrial zone" and "Residential and Agricultural zone" in an area that is currently literally just a bunch of sand dunes;
  • About 70% of the West Bank (and literally 100% of the coastline) annexed by Israel;
  • Zero sources of freshwater;
  • No right of return;
  • Complete disarmament and no legal authority to enforce border control;
  • No right to Jerusalem.

This offer was not made in good faith, even as the starting point to a "meet in the middle" future agreement.
  #54  
Old 02-02-2020, 05:25 PM
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It really is shamelessly cynical. Those zones are tossed in so that on an extremely superficial level, it looks like a big get for the Palestinians. But nobody's paying for that. No way. And how many businesses are going to rush in there if they did?
  #55  
Old 02-03-2020, 11:19 AM
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How can someone with so much money be so stupid?


The money is part of what lets them be stupid.

If you or I made a mistake that cost us $10,000 to fix, we'd make damn sure to never make that mistake again. But for a rich idiot, that's just pocket change. He can keep making that stupid mistake for years before it has any actual impact on his life.
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  #56  
Old 02-03-2020, 04:59 PM
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One or more major Mideastern cities will eventually be nuked and the problem will go away, replaced by new woes. Has Jared's ridiculous scheme bought time before the inevitable disaster, or does it only provoke crazies?
  #57  
Old 02-03-2020, 09:17 PM
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One or more major Mideastern cities will eventually be nuked and the problem will go away,
Run that by again?
  #58  
Old 02-03-2020, 10:11 PM
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AFAICT RioRico is suggesting that the region in question will become uninhabitable due to a nuclear attack, thereby "solving" the problem in a "solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant" sense.
  #59  
Old 02-04-2020, 09:45 AM
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Every now and then some movie comes out where an ordinary schlub finds himself in charge of a country; "Dave" was a good example. In these movies, the schlub's common sense approach to some problem proves eminently superior to the insiders.

Here we have a perfect example of why that's a bunch of crap. Kushner is, in the true sense of the term, an ignoramus. He is a stupid man whose understanding of the subject has been scraped together from a few books and Wikipedia in the last year or so, and his effort to solve this intractable problem is incredibly stupid (and, to a large extent, probably heavily influenced by others, though he likely is too dumb to know that.) His response is of course the response of a stupid and self-entitled man; he's angry that people don't seem to be going along with his idea.

The fantasy of an outsider sweeping in and fixing huge problems with a dollop of common sense is just that, a fantasy. It's not how the world works, in part because ignorance of the subject isn't a good thing but also because the idea of one person fixing things with a single idea is equally stupid, no matter who it is. Kushner is a rich boy dumbass, but it wouldn't matter if he was a genius; the very idea of "my idea is the right one and I'm right and you're all wrong because I'm right" is inherently doomed to fail.
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  #60  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:50 AM
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I dunno the dude has read 25 books on the region.

Jared Kushner’s incompetence is surpassed only by his arrogance
Quote:
Whatever he does, Kushner brings endless, unearned self-confidence to the task — including his unlikely role as a Middle East peacemaker. “Speaking to a room full of Middle East experts,” wrote Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy in May 2019, “Kushner was boldly dismissive of the concept of expertise. Asked about his definition of success and the potential implications of failure, he brushed it off as a ‘Washington question.’”

After the peace plan was released last week, Kushner bragged that he had “read 25 books” on the Middle East.
Granted that is more books then I read on the region, but probably much less books then his priors have written.

Last edited by orcenio; 02-04-2020 at 10:50 AM.
  #61  
Old 02-04-2020, 02:47 PM
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I dunno the dude has read 25 books on the region.
Actually, he bought 25 books on Amazon, but he only read one and a half. He finished The Autobiography of Jordan Sparks, but he got bogged down in Basketball Teams of the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference.
  #62  
Old 02-04-2020, 11:38 PM
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AFAICT RioRico is suggesting that the region in question will become uninhabitable due to a nuclear attack, thereby "solving" the problem in a "solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant" sense.
The Romans solved the "Carthaginian Problem" via utter destruction. I'm surprised the "Mideast Problem" still exists, that its cities aren't yet glowing craters.
  #63  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Every now and then some movie comes out where an ordinary schlub finds himself in charge of a country; "Dave" was a good example. In these movies, the schlub's common sense approach to some problem proves eminently superior to the insiders.

Here we have a perfect example of why that's a bunch of crap. Kushner is, in the true sense of the term, an ignoramus. He is a stupid man whose understanding of the subject has been scraped together from a few books and Wikipedia in the last year or so, and his effort to solve this intractable problem is incredibly stupid (and, to a large extent, probably heavily influenced by others, though he likely is too dumb to know that.) His response is of course the response of a stupid and self-entitled man; he's angry that people don't seem to be going along with his idea.

The fantasy of an outsider sweeping in and fixing huge problems with a dollop of common sense is just that, a fantasy. It's not how the world works, in part because ignorance of the subject isn't a good thing but also because the idea of one person fixing things with a single idea is equally stupid, no matter who it is. Kushner is a rich boy dumbass, but it wouldn't matter if he was a genius; the very idea of "my idea is the right one and I'm right and you're all wrong because I'm right" is inherently doomed to fail.
This. An outsider with little knowledge of an issue generally has nothing to offer that the two embattled parties themselves haven't thought a thousand times.
  #64  
Old 02-05-2020, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
...

Now we can make fun of Kushner's plan because it's a silly plan worse than many proposed before it, but at the same time it's probably realistic to just accept this problem has no "solutions" that don't include a whole lot of time passing and dramatic shifts in Israeli and Palestinian society.
I agree with everything you've said but I'd also add that, from the very beginning, non-Israelis and non-Palestinians have been parties to this conflict, and that's only added to its intractability.
  #65  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
The Romans solved the "Carthaginian Problem" via utter destruction. I'm surprised the "Mideast Problem" still exists, that its cities aren't yet glowing craters.
That is why countries try to prevent other countries from acquiring nuclear weapons.
  #66  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Crap View Post
I agree with everything you've said but I'd also add that, from the very beginning, non-Israelis and non-Palestinians have been parties to this conflict, and that's only added to its intractability.
In fact, I would argue that's actually the main reason is IS intractable. Israel is to a large extent resistant to a Palestinian state because they fear Arab nations will use it as a launchpad for an attack; Arab nations aren't really interested in Palestinian statehood because Palestine is more useful to them not being a state.

Most of what people want to be Palestine could have been turned into a Palestinian state between 1948 and 1967, but Jordan annexed it (with, it must be said, considerable Palestinian support.) That very likely doomed any chance Palestine ever had.
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  #67  
Old 02-06-2020, 04:05 PM
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Every now and then some movie comes out where an ordinary schlub finds himself in charge of a country; "Dave" was a good example. In these movies, the schlub's common sense approach to some problem proves eminently superior to the insiders.
I'm going to nitpick this a bit - the conceit in Dave isn't that as a regular guy, he has common sense that the elite lack, it's that Dave hasn't had to make a bunch of morally compromising decisions in order to achieve high office. Sigourney Weaver has a scene where she describes the original president as starting out idealistic like Dave, but that the process of politicking corrupted him until he lost that original idealism, and became beholden to men like Frank Langella.
  #68  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:56 PM
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I'm going to nitpick this a bit - the conceit in Dave isn't that as a regular guy, he has common sense that the elite lack, it's that Dave hasn't had to make a bunch of morally compromising decisions in order to achieve high office. Sigourney Weaver has a scene where she describes the original president as starting out idealistic like Dave, but that the process of politicking corrupted him until he lost that original idealism, and became beholden to men like Frank Langella.
If the message is that politics corrupts idealistic people over the course of the years, it makes the movie's ending pretty dark.
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