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  #151  
Old 01-16-2019, 01:13 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I never stated that being a straight white is incompatible with being a liberal.

The question is why would a straight white male be liberal when ostensibly according to Liberals, conservative ideology would provide so many advantages?
The advantages that come from conservativism tend to be short-sighted, illusory, or morally corrupt. Many of them come down to being allowed to not support your portion of the social contract, because the assumption is that any decent person will be able to support themselves via bootstraps and divine intervention and such, and thus everyone who can't completely support themselves is not decent and thus should be torn apart by wombats or something. Such policies if enacted are destructive to the economy - as has been shown repeatedly. And a damaged economy is worse to live in for everybody (though the super-rich can ignore it longer).

Other conservative gains are simply lies, like the notion that by driving out all those darker-skinned people all the good-paying jobs from the fifties will magically reappear. (In reality the jobs won't appear and the agriculture industry would collapse.) These lies are foisted on the conservatives by people who wish to manipulate them, and the conservatives buy it because they are desperate and desperation makes them angry and anger and desperation make them stupid. That or they're just racist shitheads and will accept any stupid shit if it hurts darkies.

And on that subject, I'm of the position that it's literally impossible to both be a moral person and support modern conservativism. (Er, no offense.) As a person with at least a smattering of morals, being an amoral conservative bastard might give me superficial monetary gains, but it would make me feel bad about being a sociopathic bastard, which would be a loss. With sufficient morals, the emotional losses outweigh the material gains.
  #152  
Old 01-16-2019, 03:27 PM
you with the face you with the face is offline
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
One reason straight white males stay liberal is they can be overly generous and reap the accolades of playing Santa Claus/ Great White Savior believing they will always be on top no matter what the situation.
I'm trying to picture what "Santa Claus/Great White Savior" accolades accrue to a liberal white guys, and I'm drawing a blank.

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I heard a liberal commentator taunting conservatives, "What are you afraid of? Little brown women and children. You are really tough." I interpret this as, “This little brown woman and her children are completely incapable of challenging your status unless you’re a total loser.”
It reveals something about you that you hear that and immediately think of status and being a loser. That your mind even goes to such a place actually supports the notion that the fear of losing power (or the illusion of power, if you're the modern day equivalent to a plantation overseer) underlies your ideology.
  #153  
Old 01-18-2019, 09:30 AM
JB99 JB99 is offline
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
I never stated that being a straight white is incompatible with being a liberal.

The question is why would a straight white male be liberal when ostensibly according to Liberals, conservative ideology would provide so many advantages?
Two big reasons:

First, I am not an amoral, heartless, subhuman piece of filth. Just because a policy would appear to benefit me personally does not mean I am willing to pursue that policy if it comes at someone else's expense.

Second, just because the stereotypical conservative might desire a policy that provides advantages to my ethnic group does not make it so. The conventional conservative wisdom is that we have to "build a wall" because those immigrants are "stealing our jobs." Or that globalists are somehow betraying Americans by sending their jobs to China, so tariffs and trade wars can make things 'fair' again. Because the fundamental point is not just that these policies are often racist in conception, but the proposed remedies are utterly stupid.

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It sounds like you've lived a charmed life. All humans face adversity so you've probably had set backs. You are likely intelligent, hard working, possess social skills, and are considered good looking. However, it sounds like you have a bit of a sense of superiority when you write, "I'd be overjoyed if American conservatives would come back to the adult table..."
Well, it's hard not to feel superior when the opposing party is composed of lying, racist morons who have paralyzed our government through their abject incompetence. But whatever fleeting satisfaction that gives me is quickly overwhelmed by my sheer frustration and despair. If Conservatives suddenly decided to become reasonable and cooperative and offer sound, evidence-backed policies, that would make me very happy indeed. You just let me know when that happens.
  #154  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:13 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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I think many political decisions one makes as an adult are based alot of what you experienced in your youth. That can be everything from hating poverty and racism so you want to help on those issues as an adult to being mad at your high school experience so you might vote down a school bond issue.


I'll admit I hated all my HS gym teachers and when I meet them now as adults I have to suppress my old feelings.
  #155  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:26 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Ok, I have to ask. Many of you have gone to rallies and demonstrations about issues. Doesnt it seem to you that the people who are really radical and go all out with signs, costumes, screaming, etc... really dont have much else going on in their life? I mean they live for "seeing their friends at next weeks protest".

I mean if you have a good career going and working lots of hours and have a family and a house to keep up, you probably dont have the time to take a saturday off and do a day long march or you might not see the value of going crazy at such things. Do you really want your picture on social media burning things? Does your work want you after you sat down on a busy street stopping traffic? Does getting arrested look good on your professional resume?

So I find for many people their activism, either they are college students or retirees with lots of time on their hands, or this really is their social outlet.
  #156  
Old 01-18-2019, 06:26 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I think many political decisions one makes as an adult are based alot of what you experienced in your youth. That can be everything from hating poverty and racism so you want to help on those issues as an adult to being mad at your high school experience so you might vote down a school bond issue.


I'll admit I hated all my HS gym teachers and when I meet them now as adults I have to suppress my old feelings.
Hmm.

The impression I get is that conservative ideology and opinions tend to be learned as a child. Things like scorning poor people, mocking the handicapped and people of other cultures and colors - kids are pretty aware of both their parents' opinions and also of things like social hierarchy. They're aware of which stuff is theirs tand that other people don't have a right to it. Additionally religion and religious credulity is often pounded into people while they are children.

Regarding liberal beliefs, it seems to me that they tend to be picked up a little later in life - late teens through twenties. College age, basically - when you can't walk ten feet without tripping over a bong and falling headfirst into a pile of burning bras and burning to death. (Or so I hear - my college was in a conservative state and so things were a little more sedate.) Liberal ideas tend to expect a level of empathy that one can't really expect from child, and they also benefit from being able to take a more society-level view of consequences of things, so that sort of stuff is picked up later once people are able to grok it.

Or at least that's the impression I've gotten. There will obviously be many exceptions in both directions, but it would interesting to see real data on when persons of various political and philosophical stripes picked up their feelings on the matter.
  #157  
Old 01-18-2019, 10:02 PM
DinoR DinoR is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
The impression I get is that conservative ideology and opinions tend to be learned as a child.
Twin studies tend to show a pretty significant genetic component to the predispositions that sort us into political groupings.

Study on twins suggests our political beliefs may be hard-wired

Quote:
They found that somewhat more than half of the difference in self-identified political ideology (56%) is explained by genetic factors. The remainder was explained by unique factors affecting one twin and not the other. A second measure of ideology based on 27 questions produced a similar result (genes appeared to explain 58% of the difference between individuals).
Quote:
Funk and her colleagues also found that about half (48%) of the difference in authoritarian beliefs is inherited.
There appears to be a strong component of heritability in what makes us end up liberal, moderate, or conservative. About half of where we end up is already determined at birth not learned.
  #158  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:28 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by DinoR View Post
Twin studies tend to show a pretty significant genetic component to the predispositions that sort us into political groupings.

Study on twins suggests our political beliefs may be hard-wired




There appears to be a strong component of heritability in what makes us end up liberal, moderate, or conservative. About half of where we end up is already determined at birth not learned.
Isnt there now some sort of genetic testing now for this?

No, I'm being serious. For example when a woman goes to a sperm bank they can request information about the donors politics. I guess you can even (odd as this sounds) have your kid tested for this.
  #159  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:53 PM
Ulfreida Ulfreida is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I find it interesting that I am often the only pickup truck owner when I go to "liberal" events with some of my liberal relatives or friends

Micheal Moore even admitted that liberals are great for many things like standing around holding signs. But your conservative redneck brother in law is the person to go to to help you move or to get something fixed.
All that means is that a lot of liberals live in cities and a lot of conservatives are rural. Liberals are very helpful if you want to get your appendix removed, cash out your IRA, or learn Greek.

Also? My husband is a staunch Democrat and he just fixed the sucked piston on my Honda Fit. All the people who helped us move were Democrats.
  #160  
Old 01-20-2019, 02:55 AM
JB99 JB99 is offline
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
What do you think this means?

Mathew 22 Verse 39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

As a child, it's difficult to appreciate what our parents do for us. Every generation rejects the previous one. The great hubris of the young is the belief that they are wiser than the people that preceded them. Your morality is the result of thousands of years of development. I like to cite Lord of the Flies. It's the story of a few dozen children of the elites, you know...Ivy League, Berkley, and SDMB super posters, who are stranded on an island and slowly devolve into savages when they don't have the guidance of civilized adults.
I know this is an older post but it irritates me nonetheless.

Is it your argument that if it were not for religion and the morality of our ancestors, we would descend into barbarism in some kind of Hobbes-style State of Nature? And that - more importantly - this fear should motivate us to cling to moral ideas from past generations? And that for a more recent generation to claim superior moral understanding is 'hubris?' I'm not being rhetorical, here. I really am trying to understand this argument.

Because if so, I cannot overstate the absurdity of this. You cite a Biblical prescription to 'love thy neighbor,' and yet the Bible also said that we should not wear mixed fibers, should not trim our sideburns, that we cannot eat rabbit, pork, or shellfish, that we should keep slaves, exterminate conquered populations, and that we should forbid the handicapped from worship. And yet - in the great hypocritical stupidity of Christianity - people laugh at the idea of animal sacrifice but insist the prohibition on gays is DEFINITELY still a BIG DEAL. I would say that our modern society bears virtually no resemblance to world of the ancient Hebrews, Greeks, or Romans, and many of our advancements in morality that even conservatives agree with are precisely because we rejected the morality of our parents.

If you think it is 'hubris' for me to reject my parent's morality, I will give you a very simple example that I heard from my father. In his time - as you may know - it was commonly accepted to exclude black people from all jobs of any importance, from shopping places, libraries, and even bathrooms. (Crazy, I know.) It was also very common to refer to them with denigrating insults such as 'nigger.' I have heard my father refer to black children as 'niglets,' and he once told me that he used to call any short-yardage football play 'nigger-ball.'

Now I'm pretty sure that even a modern Conservative would agree without question that these behaviors are unpleasant, demeaning, hateful, and even outright abhorrent and unacceptable in any context. Are you REALLY saying that it is hubris for me to say that my father was wrong for behaving in this way? Especially when even HE agrees that he regrets his behavior? Or maybe we should take it a few steps even farther back. I can trace my ancestry to specific individuals who fought for the Confederacy in the Civil War. Are you REALLY saying that it is hubris for me to reject the morality of my ancestors and insist that slavery is... just maybe... a bad thing?

Because it seems self-evident to me that (A) each generation should try to make a world that is better, fairer, and more moral than the last, that (B) romanticizing past generations as being more moral than the present is blatantly idiotic to anyone with the slightest knowledge of history, and (C) behaviors or social mores that served functional purposes in the past should be discarded when those purposes are no longer relevant.
  #161  
Old Yesterday, 11:17 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Hmm.

The impression I get is that conservative ideology and opinions tend to be learned as a child. Things like scorning poor people, mocking the handicapped and people of other cultures and colors - kids are pretty aware of both their parents' opinions and also of things like social hierarchy. They're aware of which stuff is theirs tand that other people don't have a right to it. Additionally religion and religious credulity is often pounded into people while they are children.

Regarding liberal beliefs, it seems to me that they tend to be picked up a little later in life - late teens through twenties. College age, basically ....

Or at least that's the impression I've gotten.
My crystal ball says you grew up in an environment which was more conservative than the one you found in college. It is likely to be a frequent case in the US because of the large geographical/political division (in most European countries, distances between areas with different political bents are always smaller), because of extreme situations such as people growing in very-isolated family groups that they need to abandon before they can even think of college, and because both in the US and in other countries, if you're from a liberal background you're unlikely to pick a college known for requiring female students to wear ankle-length skirts. It can happen, for example when it happens to be the best school in its field. Opus Dei-owned University of Navarre used to be the best medical school in Spain and to have such a policy; they don't require female students or workers to wear skirts any more and in fact trousers are now recommended, after some incidents with dementia patients.
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Last edited by Nava; Yesterday at 11:22 PM.
  #162  
Old Yesterday, 11:46 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Ok, I have to ask. Many of you have gone to rallies and demonstrations about issues. Doesnt it seem to you that the people who are really radical and go all out with signs, costumes, screaming, etc... really dont have much else going on in their life? I mean they live for "seeing their friends at next weeks protest".

I mean if you have a good career going and working lots of hours and have a family and a house to keep up, you probably dont have the time to take a saturday off and do a day long march or you might not see the value of going crazy at such things. Do you really want your picture on social media burning things? Does your work want you after you sat down on a busy street stopping traffic? Does getting arrested look good on your professional resume?
Hmmm, I've been to a fair few rallies, especially in the last few years, but I don't know anyone who's been arrested at them, or burned stuff or stopped traffic at them. I don't take off time from work for rallies and don't object to giving up some of my free time a couple-few times a year to stand up and be counted, but I don't do risky and destructive stuff as part of my protesting, and neither do the overwhelming majority of the other folks I see at rallies.

So I think that the people you're talking about are quite a small minority of all those who can be described as "white liberals".

I also think there's probably not much correlation between having a family/house and not going to demonstrations: most of the people I see at demonstrations likely have families and houses. (Many of them in fact bring their families along to demonstrations, although you're probably right that the established and older family-type protestors are less likely to do seriously dramatic and dumb shit such as setting things on fire.)

I suspect that people who aren't really interested in demonstrating for a cause, or don't really care much about the cause in question, use their domestic responsibilities as an excuse to avoid participating, rather than being actually prevented from participating by their domestic responsibilities. Many people with families and houses will frequently take several hours of their leisure time to go gaming or hunting or shopping or watching sports, after all. We make time for the stuff we care about.
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