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Old 09-14-2018, 07:26 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Are accusations of raicsm/sexism/bigotry abused?

Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-racist-...t-down-debates

Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-racist-...t-down-debates

Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
...what do you think?
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:45 AM
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Counterquestions - are accusations of frivolous accusations of bigotry used to silence people and stifle debate? And is this more common than the opposite problem? Call it a false positive/false negative problem.

Given the absolute inundation of right-wing discourse with talk of "sjws" and "snowflakes" and how few real examples they just keep bringing up over and over again, and given that those handful of examples are not representative of the norm on college campuses, and given that college campuses aren't even representative of the norm in the broader public... I'm gonna go with false negatives as the bigger problem currently, because you basically cannot bring up structural injustices (or even more specific examples of sexism/racism) online without getting at best "devil's advocates" and at worst Gamergate-style shithead trolls up to your eyeballs. There's a whole cottage industry of cunts like this on youtube like Sargon of Akkad; there is no equivalent mob of social justice scolds screaming racism at nothing.

A far bigger problem than people overusing these terms to water them down is people who amplify every example of overuse (or just invent them outright) in order to pretend that they're already watered down/meaningless.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:46 AM
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I know people who have used the N word to my face and still deny they are racist.

IMO, If anything, it isn't called out enough.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?
Yes.
Quote:
Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
Yes - not necessarily from over-use, but accusations of racism are being made in ever-increasingly ridiculous cases. See Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, etc.
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Counterquestions - are accusations of frivolous accusations of bigotry used to silence people and stifle debate?
Yes.
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And is this more common than the opposite problem?
Not in my experience.
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Given the absolute inundation of right-wing discourse with talk of "sjws" and "snowflakes" and how few real examples they just keep bringing up over and over again, and given that those handful of examples are not representative of the norm on college campuses, and given that college campuses aren't even representative of the norm in the broader public...
That's not a given - you would need some kind of hard data beyond anecdote.

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Old 09-14-2018, 08:04 AM
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Not in my experience.
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That's not a given - you would need some kind of hard data beyond anecdote.
Take a moment and compare and contrast these two statements you made. Can you spot the problem?

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 09-14-2018 at 08:04 AM.
  #7  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:26 AM
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While I think racism and sexism should be called out MORE often, the problem is that (A) nobody wants to admit to being racist and (B) people have different definitions for how ‘racism’ or ‘sexism’ is defined.

First, literally everyone holds some level of racist/sexist ideas, even if only implicitly. But the rhetoric is such that if a person says something impolite or ignorant, we immediately jump to saying “This person is a racist,” which is synonymous with “evil.” The assumption that ‘racist = evil’ causes people to shut down and avoid critically examining their behavior. Since no one wants to admit to being racist and the rhetoric against accused racists is so vitriolic, we have big obstacles that prevent understanding and actually improving people’s behavior.

The second half is that many people assume that you are only ‘racist’ if you are ‘a racist,’ in the sense that racists are people who wear white hoods. Explicit, overt racism/sexism is their threshold. Another definition I’ve heard is that “racism” is only when the powerful group exercises their power over the minority group. (This definition implies it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people.)

At the same time, there is another extreme that girl’s accusations of racism over practically any trivial thing. If a white person wear dreadlocks, that’s racism. If a white girl wears a Chinese dress, that’s racism. I once had someone tell me I was “racist” because I didn’t like the depiction of sexualized underage girls in Asian pop culture. I once had someone tell me I was a “bigot” because I remarked that a fictional character’s sexual orientation was not relevant to the plot of a story.

I want to be sympathetic, but it’s really hard when people hurl accusations of racism over the most inconsequential chickenshit. I suspect the problem would be easier to solve if we could come to some common consensus on what “racism” and “sexism” actually means.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:42 AM
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I started a thread a while back asking for any examples of false accusations of racism causing significant harm -- the only example that struck me as legitimate was something from the 70s or 80s, IIRC (quite a few offered examples of someone saying something that was actually racist and suffering consequences for it). I think the supposed threat of accusations of racism shutting down debates is massively overblown and largely fictional. It certainly doesn't shut down any debates on this board, and in my experience, in real life and even on social media. It can lead to contentiousness, and occasionally such accusations are made in bad faith, but no more than any other false accusations, in my experience.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-14-2018 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:44 AM
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I think JB99 nailes it. Racism comes in varying degrees of severity. But some people treat DEFCON-5 racism as DEFCON-1 and some treat DEFCON-1 as DEFCON-5.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:04 AM
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I think JB99 nailes it. Racism comes in varying degrees of severity. But some people treat DEFCON-5 racism as DEFCON-1 and some treat DEFCON-1 as DEFCON-5.
Well said.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:10 AM
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I think that the big danger of racism/sexism accusations are not that they are false, but we are coming to a point where the low-hanging fruits are mostly agreed upon. For instance, there are very few people that would say "It's OK to burn a cross on someone's lawn." or "Segregation was a good thing." Where we're at now though is looking at systemic problems and they are much harder to deal with. For instance, economic segregation. We know that schools right now are still largely segregated. Wealthier people who are overwhelmingly white live in neighborhoods with other wealthy people who are overwhelmingly white and send their kids to overwhelmingly white schools that are extremely high performing. People of color end up in far worse schools and end up with far fewer opportunities because of this. We KNOW this. It's a complete fact. If though, you call this racist, you end up in a situation where you are telling people that in order to not be racist, they should live in poorer neighborhoods and send their children to schools that are lower performing. The response then becomes, "Why is wanting what is best for my child racist?" These are not people that intentionally want to oppress people of color. They probably have no problem associating with black people and might not even care if their children date black people. They may vote for black candidates and support black organizations. They still get painted with a brush of 'racist' though because they are perpetuating a class system largely based on race. That's a hard pill to make someone swallow. The danger behind making them swallow that pill though is that they no longer respond to the term even for more egregious things. If you say "Moving to a white neighborhood with nice schools makes you racist." it's easy for them to dismiss that accusation. When you come back and say 'Police targeting people of color is racist.' it makes it easier for them to dismiss that accusation as well. It's a very difficult line to tread.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-racist-...t-down-debates

Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
I having trouble understand why you linked to that site. That article seems to be saying that "racism" is shutting down debate, not "accusations of racism"

Am I misunderstanding?

Also, I like this quote from that link:

Quote:
I am quite certain that the incidences of actual racism, large and small, overwhelmingly outnumber the incidences of people using an accusation of racism as a way to shut someone up
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-racist-...t-down-debates

Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
Did you link to that site because you think they do, or because you think they don't?
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:00 AM
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That's not a given - you would need some kind of hard data beyond anecdote.
For what? That college campuses aren't indicative of America at large? That the specific events of very specifically cherry-picked cases (and we know they're not common events because we don't keep hearing about new ones regularly - imagine if, every time you heard about police misconduct, it was always the same three cases from several years ago, rather than enough new ones to populate a rather massive omnibus thread)? That right-wing discourse is about "pwning the libs" and complaining about social justice? I didn't imagine that would require a cite at this point, to be honest.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:25 AM
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I work alongside minorities; in fact as a white person I am in the minority where I work. There are endless debates about what is and isn't racist among my black coworkers. There is no consensus whatsoever, even over the use of the n word to a certain degree. In fact, there is a lot of pushback and derision against unfounded or very weak assertions of racism.

I think a major part of the problem is that people such as my coworkers, whom I have tremendous respect for, never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. Mostly what you end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?

https://www.quora.com/Is-the-racist-...t-down-debates

Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
In many cases, yes. However, it's important to know the difference between someone knowingly and maliciously filing a false report of racism (Tawana Brawley) versus someone who reported a misunderstanding as a racist attack.

It's been said that the biggest obstacle to communication is the illusion that it has been accomplished. I really do believe that we need to sit down and LISTEN to each other. I mean REALLY LISTEN. Put aside all preconceived notions about 'that other person' and just LISTEN.

We need to remember that POC in North America have been getting the schitt end of the stick for the past 400 years. So many of them will be defensive; many will see racism even in places where none is intended. Just because you don't mean to be racist doesn't mean that you weren't racist, and it doesn't mean that you don't benefit from racism.

Should POC be less touchy? That's easy for the racially privileged to say. However, we tell people to 'check their privilege' for a reason, yanno? Put yourself in the other person's shoes.
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Old 09-14-2018, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mumberthax View Post
In many cases, yes. However, it's important to know the difference between someone knowingly and maliciously filing a false report of racism (Tawana Brawley) versus someone who reported a misunderstanding as a racist attack.

It's been said that the biggest obstacle to communication is the illusion that it has been accomplished. I really do believe that we need to sit down and LISTEN to each other. I mean REALLY LISTEN. Put aside all preconceived notions about 'that other person' and just LISTEN.

We need to remember that POC in North America have been getting the schitt end of the stick for the past 400 years. So many of them will be defensive; many will see racism even in places where none is intended. Just because you don't mean to be racist doesn't mean that you weren't racist, and it doesn't mean that you don't benefit from racism.

Should POC be less touchy? That's easy for the racially privileged to say. However, we tell people to 'check their privilege' for a reason, yanno? Put yourself in the other person's shoes.
Many will be defensive, many will not. Many will be annoyed at the overly sensitive types. Many prefer the term black over POC.

You're assumption is that we should cater to the most reactionary and sensitive portion of a group of people, but it's almost as if you want to ignore the portion of the population that does not agree with that. That's what listening is, it's listenting to the concerns of the whole group, not the most reactionary and sensitive portions.
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Old 09-14-2018, 12:40 PM
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Do people accuse other's of racism to shut them up or shut down debate?
No. Because when in the entire history of the internet has that ever worked? Especially in a racist safe space, like this board. Racists are determined, I'll give them that. It tends to have the exact opposite of a chilling effect on conversations.
Quote:
Are labels like racist being watered down by over-use?
No.

Last edited by MrDibble; 09-14-2018 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 01:56 PM
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You're assumption is that we should cater to the most reactionary and sensitive portion of a group of people, but it's almost as if you want to ignore the portion of the population that does not agree with that. That's what listening is, it's listenting to the concerns of the whole group, not the most reactionary and sensitive portions.
That assumption is because it's the only one that makes rational sense. The people who aren't sensitive by definition do not care way, so obviously the sensitive people are the ones you need to be most concerned about.

I would also point out that you listening to a small group of black people who you know is not better than the liberal concepts which involve listening to wide groups of everyone. You have no way of knowing if the people you listen to are representative of the whole.

And then you're acting like black people are the only other race that matters. POC means "people of color" and means all non-white people. Black people alone do not define what racism is, either.

If one of your black friends thinks POC and black mean the same thing, then, while they may have lived experiences, they clearly have a lack of knowledge on the subject.

I will freely admit that, due to where I live, I don't know very many black people in real life. And, while I talk to a lot of people online, the majority of people I know never reveal their race.

What I do do is go to the experts. I read about what black people are saying. I read about what people of other races are saying. I look at the studies. I look at the people who are highly regarded on these issues.

What I would never do is just talk to my black few friends and present their opinions as "what black people think."

One black friend I had in school loved it when the girls would touch his hair--but now I know that's a no-no in the wider community.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:40 PM
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What I do do is go to the experts. I read about what black people are saying. I read about what people of other races are saying. I look at the studies. I look at the people who are highly regarded on these issues.
Experts? On what? On what minorities think? Who the heck are these "experts?" Highly regarded by whom?

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What I would never do is just talk to my black few friends and present their opinions as "what black people think."
Instead it seems you pick some black people out of a hat, or perhaps whomever happens to be loudest on twitter, and do exactly that.
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:02 PM
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I'll make a deal. When the righties stop overusing "socialist", lefties will stop overusing "racist".
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Old 09-14-2018, 03:49 PM
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I work alongside minorities; in fact as a white person I am in the minority where I work. There are endless debates about what is and isn't racist among my black coworkers. There is no consensus whatsoever, even over the use of the n word to a certain degree. In fact, there is a lot of pushback and derision against unfounded or very weak assertions of racism.

I think a major part of the problem is that people such as my coworkers, whom I have tremendous respect for, never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. Mostly what you end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.
That sounds right.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:08 PM
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What I do do is go to the experts. I read about what black people are saying. I read about what people of other races are saying. I look at the studies. I look at the people who are highly regarded on these issues.

What I would never do is just talk to my black few friends and present their opinions as "what black people think."

One black friend I had in school loved it when the girls would touch his hair--but now I know that's a no-no in the wider community.
Oh, so there is a consensus among "experts" on this issue? I never knew.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:14 PM
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I'll make a deal. When the righties stop overusing "socialist", lefties will stop overusing "racist".
Again, no attention paid to the moderate opinions. Reducing all nuance and context surrounding this issue to a binary zero sum game seems to be the opposite of listening.

Statements such as this indicate to me that this lack of interest in listening extends even to those most effected by this issue.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:25 PM
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While I think racism and sexism should be called out MORE often, the problem is that (A) nobody wants to admit to being racist and (B) people have different definitions for how ‘racism’ or ‘sexism’ is defined.

First, literally everyone holds some level of racist/sexist ideas, even if only implicitly. But the rhetoric is such that if a person says something impolite or ignorant, we immediately jump to saying “This person is a racist,” which is synonymous with “evil.” The assumption that ‘racist = evil’ causes people to shut down and avoid critically examining their behavior. Since no one wants to admit to being racist and the rhetoric against accused racists is so vitriolic, we have big obstacles that prevent understanding and actually improving people’s behavior.

Another definition I’ve heard is that “racism” is only when the powerful group exercises their power over the minority group. (This definition implies it is impossible for anyone to be racist against white people.)
Your first two paragraphs are totally 100% spot on. I could not agree more. I can't even add a thing to them.

This last sentence of your third paragraph, however, needs some attention. Anyone, of any race black, white or orange can
hold unchallenged racist beliefs that color their behavior. The reason you hear about only dominant groups being racist is because of the power of that dominant group to marginalize and disenfranchise the minority group(s) with those racist beliefs. The marginalized minority wields no power with their racism, not on a societal level. If the minority finds itself as the dominant majority, on however small a scale, the power of racism lies with them.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:31 PM
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I think a major part of the problem is that people such as my coworkers, whom I have tremendous respect for, never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. Mostly what you end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.
This seems to be a pet theory of yours: earlier this year you made this same ridiculous claim about me. It was, of course, wrong as hell. Do you ever find that it's correct? Do you have any evidence to back it up at all? Or is it just too delicious for you (and octopus, apparently) to examine closely?

In case it's not clear, I think it's a very stupid theory, and I've seen very little evidence of its truth, and while I've not found a smoking bullet in the research, the gist of the articles I've skimmed suggests that white folks who live in non-diverse communities harbor greater, not fewer, white supremacist attitudes.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:10 PM
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This seems to be a pet theory of yours: earlier this year you made this same ridiculous claim about me. It was, of course, wrong as hell. Do you ever find that it's correct? Do you have any evidence to back it up at all? Or is it just too delicious for you (and octopus, apparently) to examine closely?

In case it's not clear, I think it's a very stupid theory, and I've seen very little evidence of its truth, and while I've not found a smoking bullet in the research, the gist of the articles I've skimmed suggests that white folks who live in non-diverse communities harbor greater, not fewer, white supremacist attitudes.
Oh god, you're coming to a great debate discussion digging up old posts to paint a picture of me as a bad wrong thinking person instead of responding to the actual points I am making.

And, as to be expected, your response is focussed on labeling other white people as bad instead of even attempting to entertain the thought that there is a diversity of opinion on this subject in minority communities, or to consider the real world impact of these issues.
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Old 09-16-2018, 09:47 PM
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Yes, very. Not even up for debate, methinks.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:13 AM
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Yes, very. Not even up for debate, methinks.
I agree that the answer is very clearly yes but apparently the question is in fact up for debate.

I believe that accusations of anti-semitism are used to shut down criticisms of Israel. I believe some criticism of Israel is rooted in anti-semitism.

I believe accusations of racism are used to shut down opposition to some kinds of Affirmative Action. I believe some of the objection to affirmative action is rooted in racism.

I believe that accusations of sexism are used to shut down opposition to abortion. I believe that some of the opposition to abortion is sexist, slutshaming/slutpunishing[?].

I believe that accusations of homophobia are used to shut down opposition to forcing bakers to bake wedding cakes for gay marriages. I believe that some people refuse to perform services for gays because they are homophobic.

But these days we no longer seem to try to distinguish between bigotry and when Israel, women, blacks, hispanics, or gays are simply losing the argument.
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Old 09-17-2018, 11:51 AM
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I think that the big danger of racism/sexism accusations are not that they are false, but we are coming to a point where the low-hanging fruits are mostly agreed upon. For instance, there are very few people that would say "It's OK to burn a cross on someone's lawn." or "Segregation was a good thing." Where we're at now though is looking at systemic problems and they are much harder to deal with. For instance, economic segregation. We know that schools right now are still largely segregated. Wealthier people who are overwhelmingly white live in neighborhoods with other wealthy people who are overwhelmingly white and send their kids to overwhelmingly white schools that are extremely high performing. People of color end up in far worse schools and end up with far fewer opportunities because of this. We KNOW this. It's a complete fact. If though, you call this racist, you end up in a situation where you are telling people that in order to not be racist, they should live in poorer neighborhoods and send their children to schools that are lower performing. The response then becomes, "Why is wanting what is best for my child racist?" These are not people that intentionally want to oppress people of color. They probably have no problem associating with black people and might not even care if their children date black people. They may vote for black candidates and support black organizations. They still get painted with a brush of 'racist' though because they are perpetuating a class system largely based on race. That's a hard pill to make someone swallow. The danger behind making them swallow that pill though is that they no longer respond to the term even for more egregious things. If you say "Moving to a white neighborhood with nice schools makes you racist." it's easy for them to dismiss that accusation. When you come back and say 'Police targeting people of color is racist.' it makes it easier for them to dismiss that accusation as well. It's a very difficult line to tread.
Good point; and I think maybe it's because the term is so catch-all, that it's not a one-size-fits-all way of describing all negative things dealing with race.

For example, my personal opinion is that racism has to have a certain intention to do something based on race. Without that intention, it's not racist, it's something else. So when someone moves to a white area with better schools for their children, it's not racist because there's no intent to screw anyone of any color- they're just using the means at their disposal to attempt to make things better for their children.

I also agree with Damuri Ajashiin that there are an awful lot of knee-jerk accusations of racism, sexism, etc... out there that aren't grounded in fact- they're just assumptions, but we just take them at face value and quit trying to determine if they're valid or not.

Case in point- here in Dallas, there's a huge amount of noise in the black community about the Botham Jean killing, despite any actual evidence so far that there was any sort of racial motivation whatsoever. It's just assumed that since he was black, and there was a cop involved, that there has to be a racist element involved. We don't know the full story yet- and I'm (full disclosure, middle-aged white male here) not going to jump to a conclusion that it was racially motivated yet. But that's the narrative that's being framed in the media, accurate or not.
  #31  
Old 09-17-2018, 11:55 AM
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The answer to the OP as asked is "yes". The term is being watered down and is occasionally used to try to avoid meaningful discussions. A lot of the rest of the posts in this thread are saying "but there's no real harm done", which is not mutually exclusive with the OP. Saying "check your privilege" in order to not have to meaningfully address points (and get in a not-so-subtle ad hominem dig at the person in the process,) is not as harmful as saying "well, some of the neo-Nazis are fine people".
  #32  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:30 PM
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But these days we no longer seem to try to distinguish between bigotry and when Israel, women, blacks, hispanics, or gays are simply losing the argument.
I see statements such as this as tinged with bigotry - and they come from all sides. Sure, someone more to the left of me would be saying that's a fine analysis because what I say is critical of someone expressing a more right wing position. However, I see the same type of thinking in about the same degree on both sides of the political spectrum. To me, the really awful thing that is occurring is that there is a lack of treating people as individuals with individual opinions that may differ depending on their individual experiences and circumstances.

Serious issues affecting the lives of everyday people are treated with the same level of intellectual heft as your standard soccer match with one side loving every controversial call as good if it favors them and bad if it does not and finding fault and ineptitude on even the most impartial umpire.
  #33  
Old 09-17-2018, 12:30 PM
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The answer to the OP as asked is "yes". The term is being watered down and is occasionally used to try to avoid meaningful discussions. A lot of the rest of the posts in this thread are saying "but there's no real harm done", which is not mutually exclusive with the OP. Saying "check your privilege" in order to not have to meaningfully address points (and get in a not-so-subtle ad hominem dig at the person in the process,) is not as harmful as saying "well, some of the neo-Nazis are fine people".
Okay, so the question "has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?" is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It's a thing, just like saying "Well, you're a woman, so obviously I win this debate" is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don't like.

And it works. It's the core of Trump's message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it's effective, is either about guns, abortion, or "sticking it to the SJWs".

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting "bigot".)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell "sexist/racist/bigot" far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.
  #34  
Old 09-17-2018, 07:28 PM
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Oh god, you're coming to a great debate discussion digging up old posts to paint a picture of me as a bad wrong thinking person instead of responding to the actual points I am making.
Well, no. You offered a theory with zero evidence. I pointed out that in at least one case in which you'd applied your theory, it was wrong, and that in general research seems to point out that it'd be likelier to be wrong than right, and I asked you if you had any evidence that it was ever correct.

Shall I take your attempt at diversion as sufficient answer to that question?
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And, as to be expected, your response is focussed on labeling other white people as bad instead of even attempting to entertain the thought that there is a diversity of opinion on this subject in minority communities, or to consider the real world impact of these issues.
Of course there's diversity of opinion in minority communities. Who the hell doubts that? (Spoiler alert: not me) But that's not what this is about. I'm talking about your theory, and how dumb it is.

(Also, of course some other white people are bad. Who the hell doubts that some white people are bad? Again spoiler alert: not me, so not sure why you think that's something to take note of)

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  #35  
Old 09-17-2018, 07:57 PM
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Okay, so the question "has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?" is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It's a thing, just like saying "Well, you're a woman, so obviously I win this debate" is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don't like.

And it works. It's the core of Trump's message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it's effective, is either about guns, abortion, or "sticking it to the SJWs".

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting "bigot".)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell "sexist/racist/bigot" far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.
Its not rare.

I would say that the majority of Israel threads I have been involved in have included some accusations of anti-semitic bigotry. Its often phrased "And these critics of Israel never criticize X, Y and Z country, now what is it about Israel that would make them single it out for criticism. Hmmm. What could it be?"

I don't think it was rare for critics of Hillary to be accused of misogyny.

These things are not that rare. And it doesn't win hearts and minds. It might shut them up for a while but it doesn't win the debate. Not in a democracy. You don't win just by shutting someone down.
  #36  
Old 09-17-2018, 08:30 PM
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Well, no. You offered a theory with zero evidence. I pointed out that in at least one case in which you'd applied your theory, it was wrong, and that in general research seems to point out that it'd be likelier to be wrong than right, and I asked you if you had any evidence that it was ever correct.

Shall I take your attempt at diversion as sufficient answer to that question?

Of course there's diversity of opinion in minority communities. Who the hell doubts that? (Spoiler alert: not me) But that's not what this is about. I'm talking about your theory, and how dumb it is.

(Also, of course some other white people are bad. Who the hell doubts that some white people are bad? Again spoiler alert: not me, so not sure why you think that's something to take note of)
You are using cheap tactics to debate what I consider to be a serious and debate worthy subject.

However, if you would like (and are capable of having) a more serious discussion I certainly am game.

State, if you will, what you believe my theory to be. I have presented anecdotal evidence for the beliefs I have stated. Let us, however start with an agreed upon premise that accurately describes my beliefs.
  #37  
Old 09-17-2018, 10:45 PM
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Okay, so the question "has anyone ever used accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to dodge/win a debate?" is fucking trivial. Of course they have. It's a thing, just like saying "Well, you're a woman, so obviously I win this debate" is a thing. My problem is that people blow it way the fuck out of proportion. There is an entire cottage industry on the right acting like political correctness is strangling public discourse. As if the biggest concern for anyone who is worried about free speech absolutely must be the people who use accusations of racism/sexism/bigotry to shut down speech they don't like.

And it works. It's the core of Trump's message. The list of right-wing shitheads who have made a career on youtube by complaining these people - often just one or two shitheads on twitter - is staggering. Most of the republican message these days, to the degree that it's effective, is either about guns, abortion, or "sticking it to the SJWs".

(Seriously, this is a really instructive case - one or two people on Twitter said they were a bit uncomfortable about the jokes in the Doom Eternal trailer, and there are dozens of videos taking the piss out of those handful of tweets. Some of them have hundreds of thousands of views. This sort of intentional exaggeration is, in my experience, far more common than actual cases of people shutting down debate by shouting "bigot".)

This shit works. It allows reactionary right-wing douchebags to effectively turn free speech into a wedge issue, acting as though anyone who supports social justice is anti-free-speech, or supports the actions of any given idiot who says something stupid on twitter. And in doing so, they amplify the voices who do inappropriately yell "sexist/racist/bigot" far beyond their normal reach. They nutpick, which leads to people believing this is a common problem, rather than a very rare one.

This is why I have a problem with the way this debate is framed.
You see this nuttery on this very board all the time. It’s far from rare.
  #38  
Old 09-18-2018, 12:40 AM
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I would say that the majority of Israel threads I have been involved in have included some accusations of anti-semitic bigotry. Its often phrased "And these critics of Israel never criticize X, Y and Z country, now what is it about Israel that would make them single it out for criticism. Hmmm. What could it be?"
You're not wrong.
  #39  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:23 AM
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In my experience, Israel threads tend to have more people accusing people of calling them antisemites, than they have people calling people antisemites. I have not done any rigorous sampling to support this claim, though.

Last edited by Alessan; 09-18-2018 at 01:24 AM.
  #40  
Old 09-18-2018, 01:54 AM
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The asnwer to that the OP is "yes".
  #41  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:14 AM
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In my experience, Israel threads tend to have more people accusing people of calling them antisemites
That seems to be a hallmark of most all "-isms". "Just because you see _____-ism in everything, doesn't mean _____-ism is everywhere". I have to admit I've been guilty of this myself at times.
  #42  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:19 AM
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I should qualify my first answer here - when I answered "No" to "do people accuse others of racism to shut them up or shut down debate", I was speaking for myself and the general case, I have no doubt there are others who do do that, but I consider them the exception, rather than the rule.

I name racists because I think that makes for more honest debate, not to shut it down. Which is why I think GD is flawed in that regard.

It's true that I do believe the debate about the supposed genetic inferiority of Black people is already resolved by science showing that the common genetic race conception is not a valid scientific concept, like phlogiston and Lysenkoism, so doesn't need endless rehashing. A sticky would do.

But that's one particular small subset of the debate on racism, and I'm quite happy to have all the other debates, based on the social construct of race. But honestly.
  #43  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:21 AM
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You see this nuttery on this very board all the time. It’s far from rare.
Okay. Does it ever work? Has there ever been a thread where accusations of bigotry actually shut up the person being called a bigot? Or are people so thoroughly inured to it that even in cases where the accusation is entirely justified, the thread just keeps on chugging? Often for hundreds of posts, even when the racism is super fucking clear? I've never seen it actually work.

This is another thing. There's a huge fucking difference between "someone called me a bigot without reason (and I ignored it and kept talking about how the real problem is anti-white racism for 20+ pages or kept talking about how black people are dumber than white people for 35+ pages)" and "someone called me a bigot without reason, and this led to me being assaulted/deplatformed/etc.".

The former just does not matter. Like, at all. It has literally no effect. I've had a former partner accuse me of racism when I criticized Islam; this was annoying but I pointed out how silly it was and it didn't stop the discussion. It's akin to any stupid rhetorical fallacy - you're going to run into it from time to time, best to just ignore it and move on, and not do what fuckwits like Sargon do and turn a tweet with two notes into something that represents the entire left.

The latter matters, but remains vanishingly rare. I can think of a small handful of examples, which the right brings up without fail every time the issue is mentioned (if this were a common thing, you'd think we'd hear about different, more recent events, rather than the same few cases every single time), but, again, this is not a common thing.

I feel like the OP is conflating the two things. "Shutting down debate" does sound pretty awful, and yeah, what happened to Milo, Murray, and that one Oberlin professor was shitty. But it's exceedingly rare. Meanwhile, someone in a debate calling the other person "racist" and being ignored by everyone else? That's pretty common. It just really doesn't matter.

And that's the typical right-wing gambit - act like the common, inconsequential occurrence of someone calling someone else "racist" and it having no actual fucking impact is the same as someone being assaulted by protesters for being a bigot, and waxing poetic about how scary it is that our free speech is under attack by those evil leftists. And it works. This is a horrifyingly huge part of modern right-wing discourse.
  #44  
Old 09-18-2018, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
I should qualify my first answer here - when I answered "No" to "do people accuse others of racism to shut them up or shut down debate", I was speaking for myself and the general case, I have no doubt there are others who do do that, but I consider them the exception, rather than the rule.

I name racists because I think that makes for more honest debate, not to shut it down. Which is why I think GD is flawed in that regard.

It's true that I do believe the debate about the supposed genetic inferiority of Black people is already resolved by science showing that the common genetic race conception is not a valid scientific concept, like phlogiston and Lysenkoism, so doesn't need endless rehashing. A sticky would do.

But that's one particular small subset of the debate on racism, and I'm quite happy to have all the other debates, based on the social construct of race. But honestly.
There is ex facie racism then there is what can be construed as racist. Its the latter where most of the arguments are.

On the genetic inferiorty, or superiority I agree. To take an example from sports, lots of "common sense" streotypes have been shown over the years to be false.

On the other hand, some might have some validity, might. (See the later half of this video).
  #45  
Old 09-18-2018, 03:49 AM
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There is ex facie racism then there is what can be construed as racist. Its the latter where most of the arguments are.
Sorry, could you please rephrase this, I don't understand what you're saying?

It seems like you're saying there's more non-racism that seems racist, than there is actual racism? I'd call busllhit on that if that's what you're saying. Or are you saying people are just more inclined to argue about the former? Which seems like a circular answer to the OP.

Last edited by MrDibble; 09-18-2018 at 03:52 AM.
  #46  
Old 09-18-2018, 05:09 AM
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IIUIC, he's saying there is evident racism (racism "on its face") and stuff that may or may not be racist, and that most arguments are about the stuff that may or may not be racist. Which frankly falls into "no shit Sherlock", but with some Latin.
  #47  
Old 09-18-2018, 05:15 AM
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IIUIC, he's saying there is evident racism (racism "on its face") and stuff that may or may not be racist, and that most arguments are about the stuff that may or may not be racist. Which frankly falls into "no shit Sherlock", but with some Latin.
Man, I wish that were the case. Instead, finding something which is racist with perfect consensus is virtually impossible - even cases where someone was called "nigger" to their face get downplayed. Or, to put it more bluntly, there are people who would deny that the president - who started his run by accusing Mexico of sending us drug dealers and rapists and, well into his presidency, both-sidesed (yes, I'm verbing that noun, and you can't stop me) neo-nazis and anti-fascist protesters, then called a later speech where he condemned the neo-nazis the biggest mistake of his career - is racist.

How do you make literally any statement, up to and including lynching a black man while shouting "nigger nigger nigger" at him, "controversial" on the question of whether it's racist or not? Simple - have President Trump do it.
  #48  
Old 09-18-2018, 05:21 AM
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Sorry, could you please rephrase this, I don't understand what you're saying?

It seems like you're saying there's more non-racism that seems racist, than there is actual racism? I'd call busllhit on that if that's what you're saying. Or are you saying people are just more inclined to argue about the former? Which seems like a circular answer to the OP.
You are either being purposefully obtuse or are stupid and I don’t think it’s the later.
Saying that a race is better or worse at something inherently is clearly racist. On the other hand, in the video I linked, a sports scientist stated that the Kalenjin ethnicity in Kenya is the best in the world at endurance running, because of evolutionary advantages. Thats not inherently racist, but certainly can be seen as that.
I use sports since ethnic and racial stereotypes have a long history in organised sports and still persist in many cases despite many having been disproved.
  #49  
Old 09-18-2018, 05:44 AM
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You are using cheap tactics to debate what I consider to be a serious and debate worthy subject.
Cheap tactics? Like what, asking you to cite your claims? That's the main thing I'm doing.

Or there's my pointing out that you've incorrectly leveled this charge against me in the past, and your deliciously ironic interpretation of that as some sort of personal attack on you.
Quote:
State, if you will, what you believe my theory to be. I have presented anecdotal evidence for the beliefs I have stated. Let us, however start with an agreed upon premise that accurately describes my beliefs.
Seriously? Okay, I'll jump through this hoop, with the understanding that it's the one hoop I'll jump through on your orders.

You think a major part of the problem is that people such as your coworkers--for whom you have tremendous respect--never engage in real discussion with the kinds of people that frequent this board. In you opinion, mostly what we end up with is situations like this where mostly middle class white people, many if not most of whom have never had any legitimate interaction with minorities as a true equal, have conversations with other white people about how bad another class of white people are.
  #50  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:23 AM
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You see this nuttery on this very board all the time. It’s far from rare.
Some people "see" more of it than others, because of course individuals differ on what are valid and invalid claims of racism. If one approaches it from a perspective of "[Other person] said [X] is racist but I don't find [X] to be racist, therefore [Other person] is either hysterically oversensitive or a member of the uber-PC thought police trying to shut me down", then one will perceive a higher percentage of claims of racism to be invalid. That doesn't mean that [X] isn't racist (nor that it is); it merely demonstrates a rather narrow and self-centered approach to assessing these claims.
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