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Old 09-10-2019, 06:29 PM
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The 9/11 Scream Therapy Thread.


Fuck you
You motherfucking coward terrorists.
We know where you were from.
And we knew where you went.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:41 PM
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Your post looks like a banner ad. But I understand your anger. That day was fucked up.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:42 PM
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And we knew where you went.
Well, they were invited to Camp David, but I guess that's off the table now.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:42 PM
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You know, I don't feel that angry anymore. It feels like it's been like a decade and a half since all that.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:48 PM
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Every year I re-watch some of the raw footage from that day, because I don't want to forget. Doing so reminds me of visceral emotions I felt that day.

But I regret the mis-steps taken since then in dealing with both the aftermath and what lead to such an attack in the first place.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:05 PM
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I taught about 9/11 twice a year, multiple classes, for 15 years. I have no more (silent) screams left.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:35 PM
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To me, the most fucked up thing is that it's been 18 years. Really? It's like it fucking happened yesterday, and we're still living with the bullshit fresh memory consequences. I'm more angry with the US government's current attitudes than the terrorists, today.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:42 PM
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Cartooniverse, I'm reading your narrative. I stopped to come over here and say I will never forget. It's easy to get complacent in our busy lives. You just keep screaming about it. Never forget, not now, not ever.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:45 PM
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Well, they were invited to Camp David, but I guess that's off the table now.

Table, rails. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to, to-may-to, to-mah-to.

Last edited by Monty; 09-10-2019 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:13 PM
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Bad people do bad things. Bad things make people do bad things.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Those people did a bad thing that day, but hundreds of people used that excuse to justify doing things that were as bad, or even worse.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:32 PM
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Whatever it may have taken to ride a jetliner into a building at 350 MPH, I don't think "cowardice" is precisely the correct term.

Now, if one wants to call them (literally) flaming assholes, you won't get any argument out of me.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:21 PM
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It's only been eighteen years. I wonder how long it will be before the anniversary is not a front page thing anymore, but becomes another day on which something awful happened. Kind of like December 7. So many of the people then are gone now.

Just last Easter a guy at my church passed away. He was really right wing, conservative, but I did not know him before his brother died in the 9/11 attack. Once folks are gone, those who talked to their wife/husband/sibling before the buildings collapsed, the urgency, or immediacy, will fade.

I will never forget though.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:36 PM
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Every year I re-watch some of the raw footage from that day, because I don't want to forget. Doing so reminds me of visceral emotions I felt that day.
I was so shocked by what happened that day that for months afterward I kept expecting to hear something worse on the news. I was an on-and-off neurotic wreck.

While I got over that, I still remember what it felt like. That was an awful time to live through.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:25 AM
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It's only been eighteen years. I wonder how long it will be before the anniversary is not a front page thing anymore, but becomes another day on which something awful happened. Kind of like December 7. So many of the people then are gone now.
Why would it be a bad thing to move on? I don't think anyone is at risk of actually forgetting that horrible day, so I don't necessarily see the problem in not letting the murderous assholes who did the atrocity continue to make you angry and miserable every year.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:32 AM
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What I remember most about that day is seeing no planes in the sky while driving home from work. Our company president gave everybody $2,000 paychecks and I donated mine to the International Red Cross.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:06 AM
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NEVER FORGET
* That US foreign policy contributed significantly to the weaponization of Osama bin Laden
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against an innocent, sovereign nation
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against our own constitution
* That the US response to a terrorist attack yielded non-terrorist casualties 100x greater than our own losses in the initial attack
* That the US government, compared to the number of 9/11 civilian deaths, spent nearly twice as many of its own soldiers' lives in wars against two industrially developing nations, allegedly in response to 9/11.
* That the US is sending people to fight in wars of retaliation that were begun before they were born, and for which the alleged instigators (Saddam & Osama) have already been executed
* That all three branches of the US government sanction government by fear over government by law
* That US politicians failed to unite the spirit of this country despite an unparalleled opportunity to do so; to remind us where we came from and the good we have done and still might, if we can recognize each other as members of the same nation.

Mourn the US civilians who died senselessly, sometimes heroically, on September 11, 2001. Look out for their families and friends who doubtless still feel the loss.
And never forget why it happened, and that our entire government was complicit in capitalizing on the horror to tighten a noose around our own freedom and security for the financial gains of a handful of soulless merchants.

Never forget, reject the rhetoric, unite with your neighbors as though your existence depends on it, hold your elected leaders accountable for upholding the law today, try to do better tomorrow.

Last edited by Inigo Montoya; 09-11-2019 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:18 AM
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NEVER FORGET
* That US foreign policy contributed significantly to the weaponization of Osama bin Laden
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against an innocent, sovereign nation
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against our own constitution
* That the US response to a terrorist attack yielded non-terrorist casualties 100x greater than our own losses in the initial attack
* That the US government, compared to the number of 9/11 civilian deaths, spent nearly twice as many of its own soldiers' lives in wars against two industrially developing nations, allegedly in response to 9/11.
* That the US is sending people to fight in wars of retaliation that were begun before they were born, and for which the alleged instigators (Saddam & Osama) have already been executed
* That all three branches of the US government sanction government by fear over government by law
* That US politicians failed to unite the spirit of this country despite an unparalleled opportunity to do so; to remind us where we came from and the good we have done and still might, if we can recognize each other as members of the same nation.
Forget? How could I? I have this tattooed on my Dick!
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:41 AM
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It's only been eighteen years. I wonder how long it will be before the anniversary is not a front page thing anymore, but becomes another day on which something awful happened. Kind of like December 7. So many of the people then are gone now.

Just last Easter a guy at my church passed away. He was really right wing, conservative, but I did not know him before his brother died in the 9/11 attack. Once folks are gone, those who talked to their wife/husband/sibling before the buildings collapsed, the urgency, or immediacy, will fade.

I will never forget though.
100 years later WWI is pretty much forgotten. WWII is passing out of memory really fast and the last veteran will probably die during my lifetime. Korea is already the forgotten war, and Vietnam is remembered more for the anger and protests here in the USA and how the veterans are fucked up more than anything that happened in Vietnam.

I remember every year because I don't want 9-11 to turn into something like Veteran's Day, or Memorial Day, where the original meaning is forgotten and it's just another day off work with really good sales at the mall.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:46 AM
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Why would it be a bad thing to move on? I don't think anyone is at risk of actually forgetting that horrible day, so I don't necessarily see the problem in not letting the murderous assholes who did the atrocity continue to make you angry and miserable every year.
I quoted Baker by accident and don't know how to fix the quote

Anyway It doesn't make me angry and miserable. I just remember because the people who died in the towers and the first responders and everyone else deserve to be not forgotten.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:58 AM
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I'm reminded in the odd moments where an older movie or image shows the NYC skyline with the twin towers.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:08 PM
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Don't forget what?

The visceral hatred and fear that led two two wars, one a possibly justified response to bring down those who attacked us and those who harbored them, that was quickly neglected in favor the second, a war of opportunity that needed to be started quickly, while the first was still on going, while the fear and hatred was still fresh and so could justify attacking those who hadn't attacked us but who superficially resembled them. Should we never forget the hatred that nearly two decades later has declared 1.8 billion people in the world evil terrorists, the enemy who must be eradicated. Should we never forget a fear that causes strangers with the wrong complexion to be viewed with wary mistrust, that causes us to build walls, perimeters and checkpoints to keep us safe. No, I think that has lasted enough and should well be forgotten.

But there are somethings we are in danger of forgetting that we must remember.

We shouldn't forget what life was like on Spetember 10th 2001. A time when you could meet your family a the airport gate with a bottle of homemade apple cider. When you could walk up the steps of the capitol in Washington, when an unattended bag would simply be dumped in the lost and found without calling the police. We must never forget that we once lived in a world without constant fear if we are ever going to return.

We should remember what how everyone came together in the weeks after September 11th before it all fell apart. A time when there were no Democrats or Republicans, just Americans and everyone was a patriot, not in a holier than thou "I'm a real American and your not", sort of way, but with real love and reverence for our history, resilience and compassion for each other. A time when we were still the beacon of freedom, and our allies supported us with open arms and open hearts. Eventually this changed, as patriotism turned to Jingoism, and the international good will was squandered as "nous sommes tous Aericains" (we are all Americans) was replaced with freedom fries. I hope that someday we can return to this, but that hopefully it won't take another national tragedy to bring it about, and that should it happen it won't be squandered for a short term political gain that will leave us even more divided.

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  #22  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:14 PM
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Whatever it may have taken to ride a jetliner into a building at 350 MPH, I don't think "cowardice" is precisely the correct term.
I agree: I think it's the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what's behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can't or won't oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one's personal comeuppance is correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:00 PM
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I agree: I think it's the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what's behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can't or won't oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one's personal comeuppance is correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards.
I think its also that they attacked civilians who couldn't fight back, rather than attacking soldiers on a battle field.

Although its pretty hard to come up with a definition of cowardice that includes the 9/11 attackers that doesn't also include the brave men and women conducting the US air war against ground targets unable to shoot back.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:19 PM
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via drone. Controlled from 9,000 miles away.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:24 PM
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I agree: I think it's the gut desire to want to confront them in person is what's behind the need to see them as cowards, since they can't or won't oblige you with that. Sometimes avoiding one's personal comeuppance is correctly seen as cowardice, which is why I think people call them cowards.
Thank you for defining my use of the word in my OP. Concisely stated.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:02 PM
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I need some different scream therapy today.

And after this, and while we're furiously trying to organize a response here in NC, that sanctimonious douchebag HurricaneDitka comes in and says, oh, no problem here, Speaker Moore says he did everything right, so you have nothing to complain about!

Fuck both of those shitheads.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:25 PM
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I lost two dear friends on 9/11, employees of Cantor Fitzgerald in the World Trade Center. Two beautiful souls who will never be forgotten.
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Old 09-11-2019, 06:42 PM
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Ahh god, I'm sorry to hear that. From what I've read, that place was both business AND family.
I'm from a suburban township outside of Philly, and more than one alumni of my high school died that day. Worked for Cantor Fitzgerald.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:26 PM
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100 years later WWI is pretty much forgotten. WWII is passing out of memory really fast and the last veteran will probably die during my lifetime. Korea is already the forgotten war, and Vietnam is remembered more for the anger and protests here in the USA and how the veterans are fucked up more than anything that happened in Vietnam.
I sometimes wonder how the Vietnamese remember that war.

Just once, I'd like to see Hollywood come out with a 'Nam movie telling the story from the POV of the Viet Cong, with Yanks appearing only as minor background characters.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:32 PM
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We shouldn't forget what life was like on Spetember 10th 2001.
Yes . . . That was a time when we (meaning not the Americans, but all humanity) had just gotten through an extraordinarily bloody century. The world of 1900 was a world of empires, with many subjects restive under colonial rule. And then came the rise of fanatical ideological creeds, fascism and communism, and much blood and treasure had to be expended putting them down. And then, no more empires, but a New World Order in which the principle of Westphalian Sovereignty was extended to non-Euro states. What a relief!

But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don't mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism -- a thing much harder to put down, and which still might be around 100 years from now.

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Old 09-11-2019, 08:40 PM
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Just one? You're sadly mistaken. But of course you are. You're not here to stop the spread of ignorance. Your purpose is much more nefarious.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:56 PM
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Khalid Shaikh Mohammed's trial has been set for 11 January 2021.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:59 PM
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Yes . . . That was a time when we (meaning not the Americans, but all humanity) had just gotten through an extraordinarily bloody century. The world of 1900 was a world of empires, with many subjects restive under colonial rule. And then came the rise of fanatical ideological creeds, fascism and communism, and much blood and treasure had to be expended putting them down. And then, no more empires, but a New World Order in which the principle of Westphalian Sovereignty was extended to non-Euro states. What a relief!

But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don't mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism -- a thing much harder to put down, and which still might be around 100 years from now.


Poes law?
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:08 PM
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Poes law?
No parody intended.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:10 PM
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Just one? You're sadly mistaken. But of course you are. You're not here to stop the spread of ignorance. Your purpose is much more nefarious.
The only other fanatical creed I can think of that is now relevant is resurgent RW nationalism -- and I don't think it has yet reached the point where it can be considered really dangerous. Just very, very annoying.

Trump is often called a Nazi, but I think he lacks the imagination. If he were a Nazi, his ambition would be to conquer Mexico, exterminate the Mexicans, and resettle the territory with white Americans. That was roughly what Hitler intended for Poland and Russia -- see Greater Germanic Reich.

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Old 09-11-2019, 11:12 PM
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But then it turned out there was one dangerous fanatical creed remaining, one not a product of modern Enlightenment civilization, but predating it. I don't mean Islam as a whole, of course, but salafist jihadism
I don't get what you mean by Salafi jihadism "predating" "modern Enlightenment civilization". The Islamist jihadi movement as it exists today originated in the Soviet-Afghan War and the propaganda of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam beginning in 1979.

Even if you try to equate Salafi jihadism with Wahhabist "Islamic fundamentalism", that itself only dates back to the 18th century, so it's not really "predating" the 18th-century Enlightenment.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:17 PM
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Every year I re-watch some of the raw footage from that day, because I don't want to forget. Doing so reminds me of visceral emotions I felt that day.

But I regret the mis-steps taken since then in dealing with both the aftermath and what lead to such an attack in the first place.
Your first paragraph makes me cringe a little. I get wanting to remember and honor the victims and their families, but what you're describing sounds like deliberately ginning up the fear and hatred many felt in the aftermath--feelings that, understandable though they may be, aren't really conducive toward making anything good out of what happened. It kind of reminds me of the two minutes' hate in 1984.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:20 PM
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The only other fanatical creed I can think of that is now relevant is resurgent RW nationalism -- and I don't think it has yet reached the point where it can be considered really dangerous.
I don't know exactly what you mean by "relevant", but I'd say that, for example, violent terroristic "Hindutva" movements in India and violent Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka count as "fanatical creeds" that are definitely "relevant" to the many people who suffer from them.

Even a movement as decentralized and areligious as modern anti-vax ideology is arguably a "fanatical creed" that incontestably kills people. And that's not even getting into the question of the violence that right-wing nationalism has already inflicted.

I think you're being naively optimistic if you imagine that Islamist jihadism is the only "dangerous fanatical creed" that's "relevant" in today's world.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:23 PM
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I don't get what you mean by Salafi jihadism "predating" "modern Enlightenment civilization". The Islamist jihadi movement as it exists today originated in the Soviet-Afghan War and the propaganda of Abdullah Yusuf Azzam beginning in 1979.

Even if you try to equate Salafi jihadism with Wahhabist "Islamic fundamentalism", that itself only dates back to the 18th century, so it's not really "predating" the 18th-century Enlightenment.
Salafism does indeed have its roots in 18th-Century Wahhabism. Perhaps not "predating" the Enlightenment, but certainly not a product of it, which communism and (by reaction) fascism were.

For more on that, see here.

Quote:
The most influential attempts to define the post-cold war world have been those of Francis Fukuyama in The End of History and the Last Man (1992) and Samuel P Huntington, in his essay “The Clash of Civilisations” (1993). Fukuyama famously argued that liberal democracy is the final stage of human political evolution. Huntington emphasises the persistence of pre-modern linguistic, cultural and religious divisions, like those between western and eastern Christendom and Confucian and Hindu Asia.

Each of these schemas captures aspects of reality. But an alternative that deserves consideration is one that defines “civilisations” in terms, not of technological development or culture, but of world view. This approach gives us fewer civilisations than those listed by Huntington-but more than the single end-stage civilisation proposed by Fukuyama.

From this perspective, the most important civilisational divide-one that seems even more important after the events of 11th September-may be the one between supernatural civilisations and secular civilisations. The divide is roughly, but not completely, correlated with the divide between pre-modern agrarian societies and industrial societies. Of the supernatural civilisations, the most significant have been the Abrahamic (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) and the Indic (Hinduism and Buddhism). The two major Abrahamic religions, Christianity and Islam, conquered most of the world’s territory and people, including south Asia and the Americas. Only China and Japan, among the major non-western nations, escaped Muslim or Christian rule. Today Muslim theocracies like Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan and Saudi Arabia are the most extreme examples of societies based on supernatural religion.

On the secular side of the civilisational divide, there have been three major traditions: humanism, rationalism and romanticism. These three traditions originated in Europe but now have adherents around the world. All three are essentially secular worldviews which do not need to invoke the authority of divine revelation or mystical gnosis (though some romantics are mystics or pantheists and some humanists have been religious believers). In respects other than their common secularism, the three traditions are fundamentally different from one another.

Last edited by kirkrapine; 09-11-2019 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:36 PM
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In the above terms:
Humanism = secular liberal democracy, as expressed in a line from the Dutch Republic through Locke and the modern U.S. and Western Europe.
Rationalism = a line extending from Voltaire and the French Revolution through Communism.
Romanticism = Rousseau, etc., through fascism -- a counter-Enlightenment attitude.
Supernaturalism = 19th-Century throne-and-altar reactionary conservatism, radical Islamism, and analogous movements in modern Christian societies (mostly Protestant) -- neither pro- nor anti-Enlightenment, but a pre-Enlightenment attitude.

Last edited by kirkrapine; 09-11-2019 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:39 PM
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Partly; it also has roots in the late 19th-century historical and political circumstances surrounding the emergence of Salafism in late 19th-century Egypt, which definitely were influenced by modern western culture. I don't think it's really valid to try to claim that any modern ideology literally "predates" the modern world, rather than simply having some historical influences from before the modern world.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-11-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:45 PM
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I don't know exactly what you mean by "relevant" . . .
I mean, presenting a serious threat to the global political order. Fukuyama is right if you take the long view -- we're not at the "end of history" yet, but you can see it on the horizon. I don't expect Hindutva, Le Front National, etc., to have much staying power, and anti-vaxxism is but a blip on the screen, no existential threat to any society, no more so than the Hard Greens. Salafism, OTOH, has deeper roots in the affected cultures, and meshes better with their saner dominant paradigms.

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Old 09-11-2019, 11:46 PM
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In the above terms:
Romanticism = Rousseau, etc., through fascism -- a counter-Enlightenment attitude.
Supernaturalism = 19th-Century throne-and-altar reactionary conservatism, radical Islamism, and analogous movements in modern Christian societies (mostly Protestant) -- neither pro- nor anti-Enlightenment, but a pre-Enlightenment attitude.
Meh, I think it's unpersuasive to argue for a strict division between "romanticism" and "supernaturalism". Many Romantics were passionately devoted to pre-Enlightenment ideals of "throne and altar", and Wahhabism itself is sometimes described as containing a strong strain of "anti-modern romanticism".
  #44  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:52 PM
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I mean, presenting a serious threat to the global political order.
Sure, because India, for example, is a tiny global backwater containing a mere one-sixth of the entire world population.
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Originally Posted by kirkrapine
Fukuyama is right if you take the long view -- we're not at the "end of history" yet, but you can see it on the horizon.
Ooooookayyyy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkrapine
I don't expect Hindutva, Le Front National, etc., to have much staying power, and anti-vaxxism is but a blip on the screen. Salafism, OTOH, has deeper roots in the affected cultures.
Considering that the Hindutva movement is actually older than modern Salafi jihadism and not much younger than Salafism in general, I think the notion that Salafism has "deeper roots" culturally is at best highly debatable.
  #45  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:04 AM
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Your first paragraph makes me cringe a little. I get wanting to remember and honor the victims and their families, but what you're describing sounds like deliberately ginning up the fear and hatred many felt in the aftermath--feelings that, understandable though they may be, aren't really conducive toward making anything good out of what happened. It kind of reminds me of the two minutes' hate in 1984.
OK, I can kind of see how you would read my words like that.

Strictly my own viewpoint, but if someone had to live through something horrific, then I can certainly stand to merely look at it. Or read Cartooniverse's narrative of events, which I have done every year for the past 18 years. Do you view re-reading that narrative every year as "ginning up the fear and hatred"?

Time fuzzes memories. Especially with the amount misinformation spread either unintentionally or deliberately. I re-watch to remind myself of the rawness of what we saw that day, to remember how I felt, not from a standpoint of RAR! REVENGE! but to remember both the horror and the solidarity. I remind myself not only of the emotions but of the facts.

If you don't know me and you don't know my posting history (and why should you?) you would be unaware of subsequent statements by me saying things like the going into Iraq was a mistake even before the US did so, and questing why the hunt for bin Laden seemed to be put on a back burner for years, or lamenting how much blood has been spilled since, often for reasons dubious at best, or opposing those who want to re-write history.

Reviewing what happened that day is my way of honoring those who were there. It is what works for me. YMMV.
  #46  
Old Today, 07:57 PM
The Chao Goes Mu is offline
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NEVER FORGET
* That US foreign policy contributed significantly to the weaponization of Osama bin Laden
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against an innocent, sovereign nation
* That US leadership exploited our grief and disorientation to launch a war against our own constitution
* That the US response to a terrorist attack yielded non-terrorist casualties 100x greater than our own losses in the initial attack
* That the US government, compared to the number of 9/11 civilian deaths, spent nearly twice as many of its own soldiers' lives in wars against two industrially developing nations, allegedly in response to 9/11.
* That the US is sending people to fight in wars of retaliation that were begun before they were born, and for which the alleged instigators (Saddam & Osama) have already been executed
* That all three branches of the US government sanction government by fear over government by law
* That US politicians failed to unite the spirit of this country despite an unparalleled opportunity to do so; to remind us where we came from and the good we have done and still might, if we can recognize each other as members of the same nation.

Mourn the US civilians who died senselessly, sometimes heroically, on September 11, 2001. Look out for their families and friends who doubtless still feel the loss.
And never forget why it happened, and that our entire government was complicit in capitalizing on the horror to tighten a noose around our own freedom and security for the financial gains of a handful of soulless merchants.

Never forget, reject the rhetoric, unite with your neighbors as though your existence depends on it, hold your elected leaders accountable for upholding the law today, try to do better tomorrow.
I came here to post something similar but your post is more eloquent than mine would've been.
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