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#1001
09-10-2019, 09:32 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Too late for edit, but even if the number of incidents are the same for both genders, it may not necessarily mean that the risk is the same. If 10 men and women are assaulted walking down the street, we would need to know how how many men and women total were in that situation. If 100 men and 100 women were on the street, then their risk is the same. But if there are 100 men and 50 women who walk on the street, then the risk for a woman is double that of a man.
#1002
09-10-2019, 09:34 PM
 Guest Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: KS, US Posts: 6,664
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore Too late for edit, but even if the number of incidents are the same for both genders, it may not necessarily mean that the risk is the same. If 10 men and women are assaulted walking down the street, we would need to know how how many men and women total were in that situation. If 100 men and 100 women were on the street, then their risk is the same. But if there are 100 men and 50 women who walk on the street, then the risk for a woman is double that of a man.
You probably should have let it go about 2 days ago.
#1003
09-10-2019, 10:13 PM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,159
Actually, filmore, you made the claim. Where, not for the first time, are your cites?
#1004
09-11-2019, 08:46 AM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thorny locust Actually, filmore, you made the claim. Where, not for the first time, are your cites?
We've drifted into talking about assault, but my original gym comment was made in a different thread talking about sexual assault on women. Even if overall assault risk is the same for the genders, the risk of sexual assault is not the same for the genders. From this report, "91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and 9% are male". From that, I'm assuming that means the risk of sexual assault in a parking lot is 9x higher for a woman than a man.
#1005
09-11-2019, 09:02 AM
 Charter Member Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: New Jersey Posts: 56,031
I've taught all the young women at the store my "Look at me and you are dead meat" stare. If I see or hear anything strange, I stop and give it a direct stare while raising my left hand in a fist. It's really my "you fuck with me and you are dead meat" stare.

I've read several religious based books that caution women not to wear revealing clothing or send out "provocative signals" to decrease their chances of being sexually assaulted. Yeah, right.
#1006
09-11-2019, 09:24 AM
 Charter Member Join Date: Jul 1999 Posts: 11,406
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore We've drifted into talking about assault, but my original gym comment was made in a different thread talking about sexual assault on women. Even if overall assault risk is the same for the genders, the risk of sexual assault is not the same for the genders. From this report, "91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and 9% are male". From that, I'm assuming that means the risk of sexual assault in a parking lot is 9x higher for a woman than a man.
Even assuming risk is evenly distributed in all contexts, you still don't know the absolute risk--just that one is higher.

It could be that the risk for men is 1 in 20 and the risk for women is 9 in 20.

Or it could be the risk for men is 1 in 200 and the risk for women is 9 in 200

Or it could be the risk for men is 1 in 2 million and the risk for women is 9 in 2 million.

You're deciding that WHATEVER the absolute risk, precautions are appropriate for women and not needed for men. You're willing to significantly curtail my freedoms and expand yours based on your "personal experience" . You put the line between "men" and "women", even though in the second scenario, men are at higher risk than women in the third scenario.

And this is the exact same argument for telling me not to go out after dark, not to work late, not to travel alone, not to be alone with male co-workers. Those things are also somewhat more risky for a woman--undeniably. Should I refrain from them?

Last edited by Manda JO; 09-11-2019 at 09:26 AM.
#1007
09-11-2019, 09:40 AM
 Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 615
Just fyi, the judge in the case has surfaced again.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...559956561.html

He has a new job as a high school tennis coach.
#1008
09-11-2019, 10:18 AM
 Guest Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 9,635
Well thank god that's a job where he'll never have to make decisions about potential sexual assa-

Dammit.
#1009
09-11-2019, 10:48 AM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,159
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore We've drifted into talking about assault, but my original gym comment was made in a different thread talking about sexual assault on women. Even if overall assault risk is the same for the genders, the risk of sexual assault is not the same for the genders. From this report, "91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and 9% are male". From that, I'm assuming that means the risk of sexual assault in a parking lot is 9x higher for a woman than a man.
You're the one saying that it's far riskier for women to not be aware of their surroundings because women are at far more risk of assault than men are.

Men who are physically assaulted can be seriously injured or even killed. As the risk overall of being assaulted is the same, why are you specifically saying that it's far riskier for women than for men to look at their phones instead of continuously looking around at their surroundings?
#1010
09-11-2019, 12:31 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thorny locust You're the one saying that it's far riskier for women to not be aware of their surroundings because women are at far more risk of assault than men are. Men who are physically assaulted can be seriously injured or even killed. As the risk overall of being assaulted is the same, why are you specifically saying that it's far riskier for women than for men to look at their phones instead of continuously looking around at their surroundings?
My original statement was in a thread about sexual assault, which does not have equal stats for gender. Somehow we drifted into talking about assault in general. If a person wants to reduce their risk of assault, one way is to be more aware of their surroundings. That can be anywhere from a parking lot, bar, restaurant, whatever.
#1011
09-11-2019, 12:41 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Manda JO You're deciding that WHATEVER the absolute risk, precautions are appropriate for women and not needed for men. You're willing to significantly curtail my freedoms and expand yours based on your "personal experience" . You put the line between "men" and "women", even though in the second scenario, men are at higher risk than women in the third scenario. And this is the exact same argument for telling me not to go out after dark, not to work late, not to travel alone, not to be alone with male co-workers. Those things are also somewhat more risky for a woman--undeniably. Should I refrain from them?
I don't know if you should refrain and I'm not telling you to refrain. That's up to you to decide based on risk. What if it was something like your kid wanting to go backpacking in a foreign country? Would you consider the different risk levels in the different countries and want to have discussions about ways to be safe? I'm sure I've seen threads which are like "I'm visiting country X. What should I know about it?" and the responses often have things like what parts of the country are safe, whether to go out at night, potentially troublesome conversation topics, etc. There are some countries which are extremely dangerous, but that risk can be mitigated by things like going with a tour company instead of going solo. So in situations like those, I see the change in behavior and action as proportional to the risk. The riskier the country, the more precautions are needed. I guess I see sexual assault situations the same way. The higher the risk, the greater the precautions.
#1012
09-11-2019, 12:47 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
I know these discussions can get pretty heated, but I actually feel like this discussion has been productive for me in understanding the situation. But I also realize that this topic is going to be contentious and confrontational no matter what. I'd like to keep the discussion going, but I'm fine with letting it drop. From this point on, I'll only post replies to posts which both quote me and have a question. If you just quote me and make a statement, I won't reply to it. And I won't quote other posts or make standalone posts in this thread either.
#1013
09-11-2019, 12:52 PM
 Guest Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 6,339
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore My original statement was in a thread about sexual assault, which does not have equal stats for gender. Somehow we drifted into talking about assault in general. If a person wants to reduce their risk of assault, one way is to be more aware of their surroundings. That can be anywhere from a parking lot, bar, restaurant, whatever.
Sure, and that is okay advice for the rapist lurking in the dark alley waiting to yank you into the bushes - but most rapes are not stranger rapes. Most rapes are the guy friend you have known for years and are up playing video games with, or the date that you carefully screened for the first few dates, but has earned your trust, or the co-worker that offered you a ride home rather than wait at night for the bus in the dark.

How many times have you had to alter your behaviour around friends and co-workers because you were worried they may decide to pin you down and jam their penis inside you?

Probably not too many.

I have had one assault by a stranger, and I was wearing my [sarcasm] super-sexy military uniform [/sarcasm]which clearly drove him wild (nope, I could have been anyone), and have had to laugh off the thousands of times that a friend or co-worker grabbed my breasts, or stuck his tongue down my throat. My other sexual assaults were all friends or people that were in positions of trust - no one warned me that playing hide and seek at my best friend's house would result in her uncle pinning me to a bed, for example.

Yeah, after a certain point, I started to think maybe it was me - not realizing that trauma changes your brain, and how you perceive threat, so you need to re-learn some of that spidey-sense that can pre-warn you. But hyper-vigilance also doesn't work, because I want to lead a life.

"Rape prevention" tips that try to teach the females not to be so damn rapeable are next to useless. Instead, let's focus on teaching respecting consent, and not objectifying and for the love of all that is holy, stop raping people. Nothing is owed to you, you are not entitled to anything.

Full stop.

Last edited by Poysyn; 09-11-2019 at 12:54 PM.
#1014
09-11-2019, 01:59 PM
 Charter Member Join Date: Jul 1999 Posts: 11,406
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore I don't know if you should refrain and I'm not telling you to refrain. That's up to you to decide based on risk. What if it was something like your kid wanting to go backpacking in a foreign country? Would you consider the different risk levels in the different countries and want to have discussions about ways to be safe? I'm sure I've seen threads which are like "I'm visiting country X. What should I know about it?" and the responses often have things like what parts of the country are safe, whether to go out at night, potentially troublesome conversation topics, etc. There are some countries which are extremely dangerous, but that risk can be mitigated by things like going with a tour company instead of going solo. So in situations like those, I see the change in behavior and action as proportional to the risk. The riskier the country, the more precautions are needed. I guess I see sexual assault situations the same way. The higher the risk, the greater the precautions.
When you judge a woman for walking in a parking lot with earbuds in, even though you have no idea what her actual risks are, that's telling her to refrain from a normal part of life because you have decided, with no evidence, that she's taking a foolish risk.

There's nothing wrong with researching what is safe in a foreign country. There's nothing wrong with researching what is safe in your own community.

What's not okay is deciding, based on instinct, or common sense, or whatever, that women should refrain from normal, everyday activities because of danger.

What's not okay is normalizing the idea that society is a place where women are not safe to go about the activities of everyday life but men are.

Do you recognize that the vast majority of "rape-prevention"does not result significant increase in safety?

Do you recognize that the vast majority of "rape-prevention" advice puts a heavy burden on a woman's life and limits her personal and professional opportunities in a substantial way?
#1015
09-11-2019, 02:39 PM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 12,937
If there's anything good that can be said about it, it's that this has ensured that the entire world knows what a piece of crap he is. Had he received a just sentence, only people locally would know, and that's only if his name was publicized.
#1016
09-11-2019, 03:46 PM
 Charter Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 14,978
Quote:
 Originally Posted by nearwildheaven If there's anything good that can be said about it, it's that this has ensured that the entire world knows what a piece of crap he is. Had he received a just sentence, only people locally would know, and that's only if his name was publicized.
Yeah, I'd like to know where this PoS rapist is now. What college took him on as a student? He's a registered sex offender now, at least -- Did the other students/faculty at that school get notified of this?
#1017
09-11-2019, 04:51 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Manda JO Do you recognize that the vast majority of "rape-prevention"does not result significant increase in safety?
No. I find that surprising.
Quote:
 Do you recognize that the vast majority of "rape-prevention" advice puts a heavy burden on a woman's life and limits her personal and professional opportunities in a substantial way?
Yes, I realize that. I don't know what to do about that. The risk is so much greater for women at this time.

I have daughters. When we sent them to college, my wife and I had "the talk" with them about being safe and my wife told them basically all the typical stuff about watching their drinks, not walking in dark areas, being cautious when alone with a boy, etc. I can't imagine not discussing these things with them before they left. What would you have recommended we do in that situation?
#1018
09-11-2019, 07:02 PM
 Charter Member Join Date: Jul 1999 Posts: 11,406
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore No. I find that surprising. Yes, I realize that. I don't know what to do about that. The risk is so much greater for women at this time.
Where? You seem to think that literally everywhere a woman goes is more dangerous for her than the most dangerous places in America are for a man. And woman after woman after woman has said that their experience with assault were NOT doing these things that "common sense" says are too dangerous.

Quote:
 I have daughters. When we sent them to college, my wife and I had "the talk" with them about being safe and my wife told them basically all the typical stuff about watching their drinks, not walking in dark areas, being cautious when alone with a boy, etc. I can't imagine not discussing these things with them before they left. What would you have recommended we do in that situation?
I would not tell a daughter not to walk after dark. I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that the boy she knows who offers to walk her home is a far greater risk to her safety than anyone skulking in the shadows. Assaults and muggings are rare on campuses. Sexual assault is overwhelmingly from someone the victim already knows.

I would not tell a daughter to "be cautious when alone with a boy". I don't even know what that means, unless I am going to tell her to just never be alone with a boy--and that doesn't seem emotionally healthy. It's impossible to tell which of your friends and friends-of-friends are rapists and which ones are potentially the father of my grandchildren. I don't want her too scared to date, and I don't think anything short of literally never being alone with any boy, ever, will make her safer. If I tell her to "be cautious", she's not any safer, but she knows now that if anything does happen, she wasn't "safe enough".

I don't know what to think of the spiked drink issue. Because it's self-reported and hard to be sure what's really happening, I have no idea what the actual risks are. But I suppose a conversation about not taking drinks from strangers would be appropriate.

I would tell her not to drink more than 3-4 drinks when she's out, over the course of the evening. I would also tell a boy that, but I might emphasize it more with a girl. Drinking to the point where you can't react to what's going on around you is never safe.

Are your daughters now adults? If one of them said she was working late, would you tell her not to do that, if the parking lot will be dark? If one had to travel alone on business, would you tell her she should tell her boss that's not safe for her and someone else should go? If one of them was jogging in her sleepy suburb after dark, would you buy her a gym membership because it didn't feel safe to you? If one of them was moving and wanted to drive herself 6 or 8 hours away, would you insist she take someone with her?
#1019
09-11-2019, 07:37 PM
 Charter Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 28,755
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion Just fyi, the judge in the case has surfaced again. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...559956561.html He has a new job as a high school tennis coach.
He no longer has a job as a high school tennis coach.
#1020
09-11-2019, 08:01 PM
 Guest Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 4,172
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Dewey Finn He no longer has a job as a high school tennis coach.
link

Quote:
 The news of Persky’s coaching position went public late Monday night, and a petition to remove Persky from the role was created shortly afterward. As of Wednesday night, the petition had over 3,000 signatures.
#1021
09-11-2019, 08:20 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore ... So in situations like those, I see the change in behavior and action as proportional to the risk. The riskier the country, the more precautions are needed. I guess I see sexual assault situations the same way. The higher the risk, the greater the precautions.
So, if total assault rates are the same, what precautions do you take to avoid non-sexual assault? What did you warn your sons not to do?
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Manda JO ...I would tell her not to drink more than 3-4 drinks when she's out, over the course of the evening. I would also tell a boy that, but I might emphasize it more with a girl. Drinking to the point where you can't react to what's going on around you is never safe...
It's also very important for a boy. Drunk boys, especially horny young men who get drunk, are at risk of committing sexual assault. They are at risk of failing to notice that a girl (or a boy, if they swing that way) hasn't given consent, and committing rape. They are risk of having the victim tell the school about the rape the next day, too.

They are also at risk of having consensual but unprotected sex, and getting a girl pregnant. In this day and age, a pregnant girl can get an abortion if she doesn't want to be a mom right now. The father doesn't have that option. He's on the hook for 18+ years of child support. And genetic testing can prove it, and the other states will enforce the support order. (Unlike in the past, when my husband's father fled the state to avoid paying child support for The children he sired in wedlock.)

I told both my kids to be cautious when they went off to college. I emphasized it more to my son, though, because I believed his risk was greater.
#1022
09-11-2019, 08:35 PM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,159
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore I actually feel like this discussion has been productive for me in understanding the situation.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence that you actually do understand the situation.

In what way(s) do you think that your understanding has improved?
#1023
09-11-2019, 08:44 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Manda JO Where? You seem to think that literally everywhere a woman goes is more dangerous for her than the most dangerous places in America are for a man. And woman after woman after woman has said that their experience with assault were NOT doing these things that "common sense" says are too dangerous.
The part in bold is false. As to where, I would welcome data which said where the risk factors are the greatest. If overall the risk is 9x higher for women than men, some places will be higher, some places will be lower. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some places where the risk is higher for men than women.

Quote:
 Are your daughters now adults? If one of them said she was working late, would you tell her not to do that, if the parking lot will be dark? If one had to travel alone on business, would you tell her she should tell her boss that's not safe for her and someone else should go? If one of them was jogging in her sleepy suburb after dark, would you buy her a gym membership because it didn't feel safe to you? If one of them was moving and wanted to drive herself 6 or 8 hours away, would you insist she take someone with her?
They're still in school. If she was working late, I wouldn't tell her anything, but I would hope she would be more cautious when walking to the parking lot as any person should be. If she traveled alone, I wouldn't have any problem with that. If she was jogging alone, it would probably depend on the area as to how concerned I might be. If she wanted to drive alone, I wouldn't have any problem with it.
#1024
09-11-2019, 08:50 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by puzzlegal So, if total assault rates are the same, what precautions do you take to avoid non-sexual assault? What did you warn your sons not to do? It's also very important for a boy. Drunk boys, especially horny young men who get drunk, are at risk of committing sexual assault. They are at risk of failing to notice that a girl (or a boy, if they swing that way) hasn't given consent, and committing rape. They are risk of having the victim tell the school about the rape the next day, too.
I don't have sons. Before this discussion, I probably wouldn't have really mentioned a lot about their risk of SA, but I've seen data that men's risk on college campuses is actually higher than other places. They are still like 4 or 5 times less likely to be victims of SA than college women, but it's higher risk than not being in college. With this knowledge, if I had them, I would probably tell them that their risk is higher and to be cautious.

I do think it's important to make it clear to boys that you as a parent aren't messing around with things like no-means-no. A big part of the problem is that boys get away with a lot with the attitude of "boys will be boys". I would also talk about that with them.
#1025
09-11-2019, 08:53 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
But what precautions do you take to mitigate your higher-than-mine risk of non-sexual assault?
#1026
09-11-2019, 08:58 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thorny locust I'm not seeing a whole lot of evidence that you actually do understand the situation. In what way(s) do you think that your understanding has improved?
By understanding, I mean understanding why people can get so inflamed in these discussions. For example:

- How can I keep my car safe? .... Park it in well-lit area
- How can I be safe when visiting country X? ... Stay in this part, not that part
- How can women be safe from SA? You're an misogynistic ahole!

And as to why I'm focusing on SA is because the emotional consequences are so great. We have some acquaintances that lost their daughter to suicide after she was date raped in college. She switched schools but her depression continued to get worse. These discussions get so heated with people calling each other out, but there are real women who deal with this all the time. If what I'm saying is so bad, instead of just calling me an misogynistic ahole, tell me what to say.

This isn't theoretical for me. My daughters are in college right now. Thorny, if what I'm saying is so bad, what should I say?
#1027
09-11-2019, 09:31 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
I'm very sorry for your friend, but the emotional consequences of any assault can be problematic. Heck, just being close to assault can bring on PTSD. There are real men who are crippled because they were assaulted, too.

A lot of these "what to do" things are fake. You can't keep your car safe by parking it in a well-lit area. There's a rash of car break-ins in my area involving cars in well-lit, well-trafficked areas. The thieves are really fast. Someone parks their car "for a moment" and runs indoors to do an errand. The thieves smash the window and grab any handy valuables are are gone in less than a minute.

Women can't completely avoid the risk of sexual assault. And the impact of a lot of the "good advice" they get is to constrict their lives in ways that men are never asked to contemplate. Like, in all seriousness, what do YOU do to protect YOURSELF from assault? How often do you even think about it?

I told my daughter to make sure to eat regularly, and get enough sleep. Honestly, she had watched "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", she knew to watch her drink. My daughter went to college with pre-existing emotional trauma (not assault related) and the thing I worried most about was her making an appointment to see a therapist. That was the #1 safety item I concerned myself with when I dropped her off at school.
#1028
09-11-2019, 10:01 PM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,159
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore By understanding, I mean understanding why people can get so inflamed in these discussions. For example: - How can I keep my car safe? .... Park it in well-lit area - How can I be safe when visiting country X? ... Stay in this part, not that part - How can women be safe from SA? You're an misogynistic ahole!
You appear not to be understanding that men are also at risk from physical assault. You appear not to be understanding that your assumptions about who is most at risk walking out of a gym are based on nothing whatsoever other than your own imagination. You appear not to be understanding that the risk of sexual assault is not greatest in such situations, but is greatest from acquaintances and intimates.

And I'm not sure you understand why people get "inflamed". It's very annoying to have people insist on giving bad advice based on a batch of false assumptions, yes.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore This isn't theoretical for me. My daughters are in college right now. Thorny, if what I'm saying is so bad, what should I say?
Tell them to go read Captain Awkward. They'll get advice about (among other things) what sort of behavior to actually watch out for, and about how to back their friends up when needed, which is likely to do them a lot more good than telling them to change clothes before leaving the gym.

Oh, and you can advise them not to walk down the street with all their attention on their phones. Just don't tell them that the reason is to protect them from rape; let alone that the reason is because they're female. Tell them it'll keep them from knocking down fragile old people, or getting hit by a car they didn't see, because they weren't looking where they were going.
#1029
09-11-2019, 10:01 PM
 Guest Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 22,753
Yeah. It's a very moot point whether bombarding women with generic "be alert, be safe" warnings about sexual assault really helps them more than it hurts them.

I'm likewise very sorry to hear about the acquaintances' daughter who committed suicide due to depression after having been a victim of rape. But is anybody asking how much her depression was exacerbated by the pervasive "what mistake(s) did the victim make?" attitude that our society so often inflicts on rape victims?

Giving women vague advice about "watching their drinks, not walking in dark areas [well how the hell are you supposed to get to nearby locations after sunset, anyway? and not all dark areas are less safe than well-lit ones], being cautious when alone with a boy, etc." sets them up to worry that if anybody does assault them, it's because they weren't "careful" or "safe" enough. Did your acquaintances' daughter maybe feel guilty that she wasn't "cautious" enough when "alone with [the] boy" who raped her?

We should not be encouraging that kind of self-reproach in women when somebody else assaults them in a criminal act that they themselves are in no way responsible for. Yes, we should talk to all young people about paying attention to crime statistics, self-defense when you're in a potentially dangerous situation, understanding the attitudes and behaviors associated with rape, etc. Absolutely give people genuine specific information relating to the dangers of sexual assault and how to identify and deal with them.

But trying to "keep women safe" by giving them vague nonspecific scary warnings about how ordinary normal behavior may be endangering them to some unknown extent doesn't really accomplish anything except to make them fearful of ordinary normal behavior. And then if some asshole they thought they could trust assaults them anyway, they're primed to blame themselves for having failed to be "safe" enough in their behavior.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-11-2019 at 10:02 PM.
#1030
09-11-2019, 10:05 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Washington Posts: 1,649
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore By understanding, I mean understanding why people can get so inflamed in these discussions. For example: - How can I keep my car safe? .... Park it in well-lit area - How can I be safe when visiting country X? ... Stay in this part, not that part - How can women be safe from SA? You're an misogynistic ahole! And as to why I'm focusing on SA is because the emotional consequences are so great. We have some acquaintances that lost their daughter to suicide after she was date raped in college. She switched schools but her depression continued to get worse. These discussions get so heated with people calling each other out, but there are real women who deal with this all the time. If what I'm saying is so bad, instead of just calling me an misogynistic ahole, tell me what to say. This isn't theoretical for me. My daughters are in college right now. Thorny, if what I'm saying is so bad, what should I say?
Not addressed to me, but here's my 2¢. I understand your concern. I have a daughter (now grown), too. And I'm in that 10% who were sexually assaulted by strangers. So I get the fear. But women are not asking how to be safe from SA because--and this is the hardest, most terrifying part--there IS no way to be safe from SA. None. That's part of the point MandaJO was making. Unlike car theft, SA is not confined to streets or parking lots. Unlike a foreign country, there are no truly safe neighborhoods. These are part of the myths people cling to in order to feel safer or feel their kids are safer (or to blame victims). SA's happen in family rooms. They happen in daylight. They happen when other people are in the next room. They happen to sober women, to women with males they trust, to women who cover themselves neck-to-toes.

We can make sure our daughters know what to do if they are sexually assaulted. We can reassure them they can tell us and we'll believe them and support them. We can work harder to change the culture and to keep the Brock Turners from getting off so easily. And we can stop perpetuating the myth that there are behaviors that keep women significantly safer.
#1031
09-11-2019, 10:06 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Washington Posts: 1,649
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tim@T-Bonham.net Yeah, I'd like to know where this PoS rapist is now. What college took him on as a student? He's a registered sex offender now, at least -- Did the other students/faculty at that school get notified of this?
Apparently, he's not in college:

Quote:
 In 2019, Turner is working an entry-level job at Tark Inc., a firm that manufactures cooling technology for medical appliances, earning \$12 an hour. It is also reported that he still lives at home with his parents and drives a 2008 Chrysler Pacifica. "He worked in shipping and receiving and he's now in quality control. He's been with us for just over two years," a source told the Daily Mail anonymously. "He's really quiet and polite. He doesn't say much and he's not really chatty with anyone. He just keeps his head down and does his job, no problems."
#1032
09-12-2019, 02:19 AM
 Guest Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA for now Posts: 527
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore We've drifted into talking about assault, but my original gym comment was made in a different thread talking about sexual assault on women. Even if overall assault risk is the same for the genders, the risk of sexual assault is not the same for the genders. From this report, "91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and 9% are male". From that, I'm assuming that means the risk of sexual assault in a parking lot is 9x higher for a woman than a man.
With respect, all it indicates is that women are nine times as likely to report a sexual assault. It does not indicate actual rates of assault.

Regards,
-Bouncer-
__________________
carpe cookius
#1033
09-12-2019, 08:15 AM
 Charter Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mesa, Ariz. Posts: 5,684
Are you really meaning to imply that men and women are sexually assaulted at more or less the same rate, but men are afraid/unwilling to report it because...?

If not, what do you suppose the true ratio is rather than 10:1? 8:1? 5:1? "only" 2:1?
#1034
09-12-2019, 08:27 AM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
Quote:
 Originally Posted by DesertDog Are you really meaning to imply that men and women are sexually assaulted at more or less the same rate, but men are afraid/unwilling to report it because...? If not, what do you suppose the true ratio is rather than 10:1? 8:1? 5:1? "only" 2:1?
I believe he's saying "we don't know".
#1035
09-12-2019, 08:28 AM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
I still want to know what steps filmore takes to reduce HIS risk on non-sexual assault.
#1036
09-12-2019, 08:45 AM
 Charter Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 28,755
Quote:
 Originally Posted by DesertDog Are you really meaning to imply that men and women are sexually assaulted at more or less the same rate, but men are afraid/unwilling to report it because...? If not, what do you suppose the true ratio is rather than 10:1? 8:1? 5:1? "only" 2:1?
From a recent article in the NYT about male sexual assault in the US military: "Women face a much higher rate of sexual assault in the military — about seven times that of men. But there are so many more men than women in the ranks that the total numbers of male and female victims in recent years have been roughly similar, according to Pentagon statistics — about 10,000 a year. And before women were fully integrated into the armed services, the bulk of the victims were men."
#1037
09-12-2019, 10:54 AM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by puzzlegal Women can't completely avoid the risk of sexual assault. And the impact of a lot of the "good advice" they get is to constrict their lives in ways that men are never asked to contemplate. Like, in all seriousness, what do YOU do to protect YOURSELF from assault? How often do you even think about it?
If anyone thinks I don't realize that things are different for men and women, they are 100% wrong. It is exactly because I see those differences that I think the data is wrong if it tries to say it's anyway similar for a man.

In my lifetime, I have experienced physical assault only a trivial amount of times, and that was as a few school fights. I'm not surprised that stats show so men are victims of PA, but my feeling is because those men are in environments where that is more common (e.g sketchy bars versus TGIFridays). How often does any man feel vulnerable in a dark parking lot in a suburban grocery store? Probably not very often.

In my lifetime, I have experienced such a trivial amount of unwanted sexual attraction of any kind that it's almost non existent. For all practical purposes, my risk over my life is 0%. The data may say that X men and Y women experienced SA, but I would guess that each of those Y women had many more incidents than each man did. Here's what my life has been like:

- In college, I had zero incidents of unwanted sexual contact, groping, forced kissing, spiked drinks, etc. How many incidents are typical for a woman in college?

- When I went jogging in my early 20's with my fit body in small running shorts, there was only one sketchy incident: someone pulled over and asked if I wanted a massage. Other than that, I didn't didn't have people honking, waving, leering, pulling up along side me or anything. How many incidents are typical for women jogging?

- I've never had a repair person at my house make me feel uncomfortable, ask for my number, chat about what I like to do, ask me out on a date, or rifle through my underwear drawer. How many women can say that?

- I'm basically invisible when walking down the street. I can walk most anywhere day or night and no one tries to catch my eye, checks me out, or tries to strike up a conversation. How many incidents happen to women?

- I'm basically invisible at the gym. No one complements my form, offers to help show me how to use the equipment, sets their mat uncomfortably next to mine, or strikes up a "conversation" where they talk endlessly while I stand there bored. How often do women experience that?

- I'm basically invisible at the workplace. No one complements my outfit, hair, backpack. No randos swing my by desk several times a day to chat. How many women can say the same about their workplace experience?

The only thing I experience that is anyway remotely similar is that a few times a month in the locker room, I look up and catch a guy staring at me and he turns away. So as a man, this is the worst I have to deal with on a regular basis: a few times a month a guy looks at me. It's so trivial compared to a woman's experience that I feel I'm being insulting to even mention it. I would bet that happens to women more times on their walk from their car to their office.

My personal experience compared to women is so vastly different that my feeling is that women experience 1000 or 10000 times more incidents of unwanted sexual attraction. From that, it seems ridiculous that anyone--man or woman--would in anyway try to imply that men and women have similar risks. I'm not putting out super "don't fuck with me vibes" or anything that is making me be this safe. I am essentially doing nothing and I have had basically no incidents worth mentioning. That's nothing like what it's like for women. Women can do 1000 more things to be safe than I do and they'll still have to deal with more of this crap than I will.

[NOTE: I'm not saying these things rise to the level of SA. But because of the huge difference in these kinds of incidents between men and women, it strongly establishes my feelings that there is a huge difference in SA risk between men and women.]
#1038
09-12-2019, 11:29 AM
 Guest Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 22,753
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore My personal experience compared to women is so vastly different that my feeling is that women experience 1000 or 10000 times more incidents of unwanted sexual attraction.
I would nitpick this to suggest that it might be more accurate to say that women experience "1000 or 10000 times more incidents" of people feeling entitled to demand their attention for expressions of unwanted sexual attraction.

Women feel sexual attraction all the time for people who would most likely consider that attraction "unwanted", and to whom expressing that attraction in those circumstances would be inappropriate. The difference is that many, many fewer women than men think it's okay to announce their unwanted attraction, or to expect that the person they're attracted to will feel complimented or pleased by that announcement.

So women might be lusting on you or other men all the time as you go about your daily business (and before this descends into hyuk-hyuk posturing from some posters about "Boy, I only wish!" and similar nonsense, let me remind you that statistically speaking this would probably mostly consist of women you'd consider "too old" or "too fat" or "too ugly" etc. for you to be pleased by their attraction to you). But you don't realize it, because women aren't socialized to believe that forcing their attraction on other people's attention is appropriate behavior.

Sexual assault and harassment are fundamentally not about liking other people, they're about controlling other people. Men are constantly being sent the message by society that being able to control other people is an integral part of manliness. And compelling women's attention to recognize men's unsolicited expressions of attraction is one form of that control.
#1039
09-12-2019, 01:24 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore If anyone thinks I don't realize that things are different for men and women, they are 100% wrong. It is exactly because I see those differences that I think the data is wrong if it tries to say it's anyway similar for a man.
You seem to have completely missed my point. The data show that total number of assaults is the same for men and women. What are YOU doing to mitigate your risk?

Oh, almost nothing? Hey, me too.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore ...How often does any man feel vulnerable in a dark parking lot in a suburban grocery store? Probably not very often.
Pretty sure that parking lot is safe. It certainly never occurred to me to worry about it. I shop after dark all the time. Because, you know, that's when I'm free to shop.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore ...- In college, I had zero incidents of unwanted sexual contact, groping, forced kissing, spiked drinks, etc. How many incidents are typical for a woman in college?
I never had a non-sexual assault in college. I had one serious sexual assault that I successfully fought off, and probably some minor incidents that I brushed off at the time.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore - When I went jogging in my early 20's with my fit body in small running shorts, there was only one sketchy incident: someone pulled over and asked if I wanted a massage. Other than that, I didn't didn't have people honking, waving, leering, pulling up along side me or anything. How many incidents are typical for women jogging?
When I used to walk around NYC, all the sketchy incidents I had focused on my wallet, not my body. The scariest was one when I was walking with my husband. That one was scary enough that we stopped using that street.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore - I've never had a repair person at my house make me feel uncomfortable, ask for my number, chat about what I like to do, ask me out on a date, or rifle through my underwear drawer. How many women can say that?
ME. Repair people mostly visit houses opened by a woman. If they make the customer uncomfortable, they don't do very well. Seriously. I've had dozens of contractors and repair people through my house. All but one has been a guy (or sometimes guys.) I haven't felt uncomfortable with any of them since the time my parents had the house painted when I was a teen, and I woke up to the noise of a guy removing the shutters from my window, and realizes I was naked and couldn't get out of bed until he moved along. But, he was just doing what he'd been paid to do, my parents should have warned me we'd have painters on the house early in the morning.

I guess I had an electrician with tattoos that looked Nazi-themed to me that I was uncomfortable with. Not that I thought he was about to assault me or anything, I just didn't like having a Nazi in my house. I didn't hire him again.

I'm not saying I speak for all of woman-kind. But I think you are way over-estimating the actual danger women are in, and you are preaching a life of fear and restricted opportunities. I don't think your message is helpful. Not even to keep women from being assaulted, but certainly not overall as a life-message.
#1040
09-12-2019, 02:55 PM
 Guest Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 4,509
Quote:
 Originally Posted by puzzlegal You seem to have completely missed my point. The data show that total number of assaults is the same for men and women. What are YOU doing to mitigate your risk? Oh, almost nothing? Hey, me too.
Something is not adding up. We have women in this thread relating how common SH and SA has been in their lives, but my experience with either physical or sexual assault has been practically zero. I can't believe it's just lucky chance for me. My guess is that there are certain distinct environments where men are assaulted (e.g. gang/drug violence, bar fights, etc), while women are more at a general risk. But this is all guessing on all of our parts. If anyone can show that assault rates are 50/50 regardless of environment, I'd be very interested to see it.

A while ago this video came out 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman. The video is just a couple of minutes of the whole thing. Some of the things she experienced in that 10 hours I have not experienced in my entire lifetime--nothing close to it. At the end it says she had 100+ incidents of guys following her, harassment, cat calls, leering, etc. along with countless winks, whistles, etc. Her experience is nothing like my experience.
#1041
09-12-2019, 02:59 PM
 Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4,616
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore ...A while ago this video came out 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman. The video is just a couple of minutes of the whole thing. Some of the things she experienced in that 10 hours I have not experienced in my entire lifetime--nothing close to it. At the end it says she had 100+ incidents of guys following her, harassment, cat calls, leering, etc. along with countless winks, whistles, etc. Her experience is nothing like my experience.
That was a video of annoying things that happened to her. Not of dangerous things that happened to her. There's a really big gulf between "some random person makes a rude statement" and "dangerous assault".

I think you're missing that distinction.

I also think you have chosen not to hear the numerous women who have come to the thread to say, "cut it out, dude, you are not helping. If anything, you are increasing the guilt women feel if they are assaulted."
#1042
09-12-2019, 03:29 PM
 Guest Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 4,192
Back on the original topic of this thread, I wonder if he regrets fighting the conviction and wishes he had just taken a quiet plea bargain, especially one that had jail time but no sex offender registration, instead of fighting and appealing. The slap on the wrist sentence and "20 minutes of action" comment have brought this into the public consciousness, 'brock the rapist' on google brings up the case, and his mugshot as turned up in at least one textbook as an example of a rapist, so he's going to have to deal with this whenever he tries to get a job, whereas with a plea bargain or just an ordinary conviction it would be easier to pass off as a "youthful indiscretion." A lot of businesses just aren't going to want a literal textbook example of a rapist on their staff page.

Also, the judge who gave the six month (three actually served) sentence and was recalled, and who also (in a 2011 case) allowed photos of a different rape victim enjoying herself at a party a year after her rape as evidence that she wasn't traumatized by rape, got a job as a girl's tennis team coach. This has led to some seriously outraged parents who don't want a pro-rape judge coaching their girls. "All athletic coaches have to be mandated reporters for harassment and abuse, and Persky’s language during the trial and decision to focus on supporting the rapist more than the survivor Chanel Miller has made it clear he does not respect the bodily autonomy of women and therefore cannot be an appropriate choice for our tennis coach. That is not the type of person our 14-16-year-old girls on the JV Sports team should have for a coach or mentor."

https://sfist.com/2019/09/11/recalle...ennis-parents/
#1043
09-12-2019, 03:37 PM
 Guest Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,159
Quote:
 Originally Posted by filmore My guess is that there are certain distinct environments where men are assaulted (e.g. gang/drug violence, bar fights, etc), while women are more at a general risk. But this is all guessing on all of our parts. If anyone can show that assault rates are 50/50 regardless of environment, I'd be very interested to see it.
If you can show that women are more at risk walking out of a gym, in whatever fashion, than in their own homes and their workplaces, I'd be very interested to see it.

In the meantime, how about you stop advising other people to base their decision-making on your guesses?

-- and I have hired quite a lot of contractors, nearly all of them male and some of them jerks in other ways, and I've never had any of them try to harass me, or even to ask me out.
#1044
09-12-2019, 03:56 PM
 Guest Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 4,192
Quick update on my comment: Apparently the school district moved fast, and the judge has already lost his position coaching 16 year old girls. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ok/2297795001/
#1045
09-12-2019, 04:03 PM
 Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 4,054
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pantastic Quick update on my comment: Apparently the school district moved fast, and the judge has already lost his position coaching 16 year old girls. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ok/2297795001/
Look waaaay up there to post #1019:
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...postcount=1019
#1046
09-17-2019, 08:32 AM
 Guest Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: USA for now Posts: 527
Quote:
 Originally Posted by DesertDog Are you really meaning to imply that men and women are sexually assaulted at more or less the same rate, but men are afraid/unwilling to report it because...? If not, what do you suppose the true ratio is rather than 10:1? 8:1? 5:1? "only" 2:1?
Not meaning to imply that at all. I simply mean (as was said better by someone else) "we don't know". It's just not a good idea to extrapolate that the reported rate is the *actual* rate. It may be higher. And yes, it probably is fair to say that male sexual assaults are less likely to be reported.

"A common theme emerging in treating male rape victims is a lost sense of manliness. Male victims voice their concern in reconciling their masculine identity with their experience of being raped. One patient reported that he never disclosed it to his wife of 30 years; the sense of stigma from the rape was felt as huge and devastating."
-https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067991/#bib1

Most statistics are that about 14-18% of males will have been sexually assaulted by age 18. That we know of. Most of this reporting is around minors. Because they are children, you are more likely to get reporting (for both sexes) because of the mandatory reporting requirements in the medical professions and/or parental involvement. This number *doesn't* include the number of assaults reported as adults, though again (as above) men are less likely to report as an adult for a variety of reasons.
-https://1in6.org/get-information/the-1-in-6-statistic/

Regards,
-Bouncer-
__________________
carpe cookius
#1047
Yesterday, 01:31 PM
 Charter Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 36,129
I'd like to note that according to this column by a textbook writer who included Brock Turner's mugshot in a description the crime of "rape" notes that the FBI's definition of "rape" includes what Turner did (penetrate someone's vagina with an object) and that subsequent to the conviction the California legislature amended the state's statutes to encompass what Turner did within the definition of "rape."

So as a matter of societal views of rape, it seems unnecessary to quibble over whether raping someone using a penis is fundamentally worse than raping someone with fingers and pine needles.

As of today, at least one criminal law textbook author, many of us laypeople, the FBI, and California criminal statutes all consider what Turner did to be rape.

The column -- https://www.vox.com/first-person/201...ck-turner-rape

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