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  #201  
Old 11-15-2017, 10:07 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
I told you that your post wasn't clear. That's the issue; your post was unclear.
What is unclear about it? Seems straight forward to me. If I'm on Craigslist and looking in the "W4M" section I assume that the person is a gender-typical woman. If not, I would think she would be posting in the "T4M" section. Not really hard to understand.
  #202  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
What is unclear about it? Seems straight forward to me. If I'm on Craigslist and looking in the "W4M" section I assume that the person is a gender-typical woman. If not, I would think she would be posting in the "T4M" section. Not really hard to understand.
I think the term you're looking for is "cisgender". Correct?

(FWIW, I don't think it's fair to judge someone as transphobic if they're not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It's a complex issue -- I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn't date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn't date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.)

Last edited by Guinastasia; 11-16-2017 at 12:21 AM.
  #203  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:43 AM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Sorry, but I used "gender-typical woman" with a hyphen that you failed to quote properly. Gender-typical means someone whose gender matches their sex.
The word you're looking for is cisgender, as Una and Guinastasia said. Cisgender is a biological thing; gender-typical is social and varies depending on where you are and in whose company. I'm cisgender, but merely having an engineering degree already makes me gender-atypical. My clothing and social behavior fit the prejudice-set "engineer" a lot better than the prejudice-set "female". My musical tastes fit the prejudice-set "gamer" much better than the prejudice-set "female".
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Last edited by Nava; 11-16-2017 at 12:46 AM.
  #204  
Old 11-16-2017, 05:49 AM
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Since no one seems to have answered this...

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
What is FUD?
Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

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Originally Posted by andylongino View Post
People who have same-sex partners and people who change their sex there is something not natural about this. About all this gays getting married more power to them. How can I hurt straight people. I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I won’t be allowed to adopt only in to a natural light and varmin I think anyone who is in a position to adopt children only should do so I will be allowed to adopt only in to a natural like environment. I mean a man and a woman that I think should be married and that cannot have children or just wants to help should be able to do so. Can people of the same sex that is married should not at all be able to adopt for the child sake. They gave up that right of having children when they decided to get same-sex partners.
I think I speak for most of the people in this thread when I say:
  #205  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:09 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Efficiency's not the crucial issue here. Other people's obligations to make pre-emptive announcements about their personal lives are not dependent on what you consider to be "the most efficient way of avoiding bad matches".

Your artificial social-utilitarian ideals of dating efficiency do not override other people's ethical right to choose for themselves what personal information they want to announce in their dating profiles.

Nor do they eliminate the fundamental ethical obligation of grownups to take responsibility for telling potential dating partners what their own dating requirements are.
There is nothing artificial about them. These are basic concepts and writing things in bold don't make your words any less silly. Ethics is largely driven social utilitarianism. I'm not saying that anyone MUST divulge their transgender status in dating profiles (not even really sure what dating profiles are, do these websites ask you if you have a preference for not dating transgender folks? Is there a little box you can check?

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Doesn't matter, either for transgender or for any other of the numerous rare characteristics that most people don't want in a dating partner. For example, less than 1% of people in the US are HIV+, too, and lots of HIV- people don't want to date somebody HIV+.
And I think HIV+ people should be upfront about that too.

Quote:
That still doesn't make it the responsibility of HIV+ people to announce their status to potential dating partners right away. It's not about the statistical numbers or made-up rationales concerning "efficiency" or "cost". It's about the moral right of individuals to decide for themselves what personal information to reveal to strangers.
And there are more honest ways of exercising that right and less honest ways of exercising that right.

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So what? Other people are not responsible for guessing what your crucial dating requirements might be just because you can't be bothered to bear them in mind yourself.

If it's so important to you not to date transgender women, it's up to you to remember that fact and regulate your own dating behavior accordingly. Your issue, your responsibility.
Nope, you're wrong.
  #206  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:10 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
No one has to declare anything -- by not declaring that they're trans, a trans person is accepting the risk that their date may feel angry or disappointed in the future if the relationship develops to the extent that they reveal it. Many may decide that this risk is less dangerous than revealing it from the start. And by not declaring that someone doesn't want to date a trans person, a cis person is accepting the risk that they may find out later that the person they're dating is trans, and thus might be angry or disappointed.

Thus goes dating. Dating can result in anger or disappointment or lots of other things.
Sure, people are dishonest in relationships all the time and this frequently leads to anger and disappointment. I'm not trying to outlaw dishonesty in relationships. I am combatting the notion that there is nothing wrong with this dishonesty.
  #207  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:20 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Poison ivy is literally a non-food-approved poison which it is illegal to put in foods (and in some places illegal even to burn in the open air). Comparing that with transgender status is ridiculous.
You brought up the allergy issue. I was looking for something that ~80% (but not all) people are allergic to, that is also uncommon. So I picked poison ivy in an urban environment.

If you can think of another thing that ~80% of people are allergic to but is rarely encountered, I would be happy to substitute that for poison ivy.

So in summation, the use of poison ivy in an urban environment is in fact very appropriate if you are going to use allergy as an analogy for aversion to transgender dating.

When the allergy is rare and the allergen is common then it is up to the allergic person to be careful. When the allergy is incredibly common and the allergen is rare then it is up to the person introducing the allergen to provide notice of the presence of the allergen.
  #208  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:29 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Perhaps there's a moral burden on cisgender men to take the initiative and be open and honest, forthright even, about their dislike, disapproval, or hatred of us in dating situations. Perhaps because the killer in almost all cases where a transgender woman is murdered is a cisgender man.

Or maybe cisgender men could actively police themselves, and teach each other not to murder people like me.

Naw, wouldn't work.

So let's consider something else.

If a cisgender person politely and reasonably preemptively outs themselves as not wanting to be with a transgender woman, the absolute worst that happens to them is some people might think a little less of them. Maybe. Whereas if a transgender person preemptively outs themselves in that same situation, they suddenly have painted a giant target for abuse, harassment, assault, and worse upon themselves. Is the peril equal in this situation? Doesn't seem that way to me.

Or let's consider something else.

The cisgender person is merely preemptively disclosing an opinion on compatibility of a mate. Whereas the transgender person must preemptively disclose personal and almost certainly painful medical information. Don't even pretend like the two should have an equal level of expected privacy.
This is a good point. The burden of disclosure is not the same for the transgender as it is for everyone else. They have to be much more careful about who they disclose to because they can be subjected to violence. I don't know if "coming out" for gays was ever as bad as it is for transgender today but I recall a lot of gay bashing when I was a kid.

But that is where the burden lays. If you don't want to be dishonest, you have to be upfront. Perhaps this means you have to spend a lot more time feeling someone out than the rest of us do. Perhaps you can't go out with someone you just met spontaneously as easily as the rest of us. I don't think failure to be upfront makes you evil or immoral but it is a bit of dishonesty.
  #209  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:35 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
And I can certainly judge you for that attitude.

Doin' it right now, as a matter of fact.
Meh. Less than 20% of people are going to disagree with me and 80%+ are going to agree with me. You can't make every kneejerk liberal (or conservative) happy, you shouldn't even try.
  #210  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
I think the term you're looking for is "cisgender". Correct?

(FWIW, I don't think it's fair to judge someone as transphobic if they're not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It's a complex issue -- I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn't date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn't date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.)
80%+ of the population is transphobic?
  #211  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:49 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Since no one seems to have answered this...



Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

I think I speak for most of the people in this thread when I say:
There is certainly a lot of xenophobia associated with how we react to transgender. Our attitudes towards the gay community have largely changed because so many gay folks are "out" and we know them and work with them and are related to them. It took a while.

People used to get disowned and beaten up and fired for being gay. Now we have three gay teachers at my kid's elementary school, several conspicuously gay lawyers at work, and gay cops on the beat. We are cool with them getting married and we are cool with them adopting kids.

It didn't happen overnight and we're not all the way there. But, at some point it was no longer OK to beat up gays and they started coming out and then we started seeing them as people and not just sexual orientations. I don't know how we get from here to there with transgender but dishonesty does not seem to me to be the best path.

But I am pretty sure that there isn't some sort of conspiracy to promote xenophobia against transgender, its been there all along and we are slowly but surely learning more and more and starting to identify transgender people as more than their transgender status.

There once was a time when all you knew about someone was that they were black and you felt you knew all you needed to know. Same with Asians and then gays. Eventually we started to see them as complete people and not just this one label. Hopefully we get there with the transgender folks too but dishonesty won't get us there faster.
  #212  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:59 AM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
I think the term you're looking for is "cisgender". Correct?
No, I am not.

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(FWIW, I don't think it's fair to judge someone as transphobic if they're not necessarily sure if they would be open to dating a trans person. It's a complex issue -- I mean, I imagine there are trans people who wouldn't date another transperson for whatever reason. Or wouldn't date a cisperson. When you talk about it and how you approach it is a different matter.)
Of course it's not fair. Especially when someone wouldn't be open to dating a transgender person not because they are transgender, but because they do not have the anatomy that someone is looking for in a date.
  #213  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
But I am pretty sure that there isn't some sort of conspiracy to promote xenophobia against transgender, its been there all along and we are slowly but surely learning more and more and starting to identify transgender people as more than their transgender status.
While much of the negative reaction to transgender people is not the result of an active conspiracy to promote xenophobia against them, there most certainly are multiple campaigns intended to stir up FUD and hatred against them (see, most notably, the various "bathroom bill" campaigns and associated bigotry). The Overton Window is moving in the right direction but only because those seeking to improve the lot of transgender people have learned the hard way that they can never stop pushing or else the people pushing the other way will immediately regain all the ground they've recently lost.

On the dating front, I do think it unreasonable to force transgendered people to announce everything before the first date like some form of legal disclosure. Likewise, however, I think it unreasonable to not have mentioned it by the tenth date either. Somewhere in the middle is a...well, if not a happy medium, then at least a tolerable one. And of course disclosure should happen before any physical intimacy is attempted (and IMHO I'm going to include kissing in this category).

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
  #214  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
No, I am not.
The opposite of transgender is cisgender, not gender-typical. Of course if you're the new Lord of the Dictionary excuse us for not having received the memo.
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  #215  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:19 AM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
The opposite of transgender is cisgender, not gender-typical. Of course if you're the new Lord of the Dictionary excuse us for not having received the memo.
You can use whatever words you want.
  #216  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
But that is where the burden lays.
No, it doesn't. You have arbitrarily decided to make up a specious social-utilitarian argument for transferring the "burden" of transgender-dating avoidance from the people who want to avoid dating transgender people (which is where that burden rightfully belongs) to transgender people themselves.

A more meaningful and consistent ethical analysis, which doesn't depend on transitory statistics about current social attitudes, says that the person who wants to avoid a particular outcome is the one responsible for taking the necessary steps to avoid it. Nobody else is ethically obligated to statistically predict what your probable wishes might be without your telling them.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
If you don't want to be dishonest, you have to be upfront.
There is nothing "dishonest" about not being immediately "upfront" about either being transgender or wanting to avoid dating transgender people.

But if you're not immediately upfront about it, then that means you may spend some time dating somebody before finding out that they're unsuitable for you, because one of you is transgender and the other person doesn't want to date somebody transgender.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that either: disappointing discoveries are just part of dating. What is wrong is whining that the other person is at fault for not having spared you the disappointment by immediately telling you that fact about themselves.

Nope. If you want to be spared eventual disappointment in dating, whether it's about transgender, transphobia or any other possible characteristic that a potential date might have, it's on you to clear the air right at the beginning by explicitly making your requirements known.
  #217  
Old 11-16-2017, 10:15 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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While much of the negative reaction to transgender people is not the result of an active conspiracy to promote xenophobia against them, there most certainly are multiple campaigns intended to stir up FUD and hatred against them (see, most notably, the various "bathroom bill" campaigns and associated bigotry). The Overton Window is moving in the right direction but only because those seeking to improve the lot of transgender people have learned the hard way that they can never stop pushing or else the people pushing the other way will immediately regain all the ground they've recently lost.
I see things differently.

I think its the bathroom bills that are moving the overton window. 80%+ of people don't want to date transgender but almost 60% of people disagree with bathroom bills and that is changing the way we see the transgender. Heck almost half of Republicans are against bathroom bills. And 85% of folks don't even have a friend or family member that is transgender. Imagine the percentage when they find out that there are people in their community and in their families that are transgender.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ced79351942c

But we always risk getting ahead of the overton window and becoming politically unacceptable when we push things. The people who supported gay marriage when it was "leave them alone, they're not bothering anyone" are less supportive now that there are lawsuits attempting to force people to supply cakes and flowers to their wedding. You risk losing traction when you push too hard.

Quote:
On the dating front, I do think it unreasonable to force transgendered people to announce everything before the first date like some form of legal disclosure. Likewise, however, I think it unreasonable to not have mentioned it by the tenth date either. Somewhere in the middle is a...well, if not a happy medium, then at least a tolerable one. And of course disclosure should happen before any physical intimacy is attempted (and IMHO I'm going to include kissing in this category).

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
I wouldn't "force" anything but I feel its dishonest if you deliberately withhold that information.

But that's just my opinion too. I base my opinion on statistics and utilitarian arguments but its still just my opinion. But in a democracy, opinions count and no amount of "ooh, I'm judging you (and the other 80% of Americans) for not thinking like I do" is going to change those numbers. We don't give enough of a shit about your opinion of us, we stopped caring about those sort of opinions after the first two years of high school.
  #218  
Old 11-16-2017, 10:23 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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No, it doesn't. You have arbitrarily decided to make up a specious social-utilitarian argument for transferring the "burden" of transgender-dating avoidance from the people who want to avoid dating transgender people (which is where that burden rightfully belongs) to transgender people themselves.
Yes it does. You have arbitrarily decided to ignore a long established sound utilitarian argument for transferring the "burden" of transgender dating avoidance from the transgender people (where the burden rightfully belongs) to the non-transgender people who are innocent bystanders in a world where transgender folks who can pass account for less than 0.5% of the dating population and where over 80% of folks don't want to date that 0.5%.

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A more meaningful and consistent ethical analysis, which doesn't depend on transitory statistics about current social attitudes, says that the person who wants to avoid a particular outcome is the one responsible for taking the necessary steps to avoid it. Nobody else is ethically obligated to statistically predict what your probable wishes might be without your telling them.
That is of course hogwash. You should throw it out. It stinks.

Just like you shouldn't put poison ivy in a salad without telling people even though some people would be OK with eating poison ivy.

Quote:
There is nothing "dishonest" about not being immediately "upfront" about either being transgender or wanting to avoid dating transgender people.
Except for the fact that the transgender person knows that the overwhelming majority of people don't want to date transgender people and decides not to share that information.

Quote:
But if you're not immediately upfront about it, then that means you may spend some time dating somebody before finding out that they're unsuitable for you, because one of you is transgender and the other person doesn't want to date somebody transgender.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that either: disappointing discoveries are just part of dating. What is wrong is whining that the other person is at fault for not having spared you the disappointment by immediately telling you that fact about themselves.

Nope. If you want to be spared eventual disappointment in dating, whether it's about transgender, transphobia or any other possible characteristic that a potential date might have, it's on you to clear the air right at the beginning by explicitly making your requirements known.
Nope, its dishonest regardless of how you rationalize it. Its not the end of the world, but its dishonest. Plenty of relationships crater over dishonesty.
  #219  
Old 11-16-2017, 10:26 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
While much of the negative reaction to transgender people is not the result of an active conspiracy to promote xenophobia against them, there most certainly are multiple campaigns intended to stir up FUD and hatred against them (see, most notably, the various "bathroom bill" campaigns and associated bigotry). The Overton Window is moving in the right direction but only because those seeking to improve the lot of transgender people have learned the hard way that they can never stop pushing or else the people pushing the other way will immediately regain all the ground they've recently lost.

On the dating front, I do think it unreasonable to force transgendered people to announce everything before the first date like some form of legal disclosure. Likewise, however, I think it unreasonable to not have mentioned it by the tenth date either. Somewhere in the middle is a...well, if not a happy medium, then at least a tolerable one. And of course disclosure should happen before any physical intimacy is attempted (and IMHO I'm going to include kissing in this category).

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
In your opinion, should people who would not want to date a transgendered person tell every prospective date that they don't want to date a transgendered person? Or is the burden on the transgendered person to say they are transgendered? Either on the 10th date (as you prefer) or immediately (as I think candor demands).
  #220  
Old 11-16-2017, 10:52 AM
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Here's the thing - I keep sensing a bit of "panic" about finding out one's dating partner is transgender. This absolute horror that that fact might be revealed.

Me, I like men and while I don't think I'd be interested/attracted to a transman, if I was dating someone and they revealed that fact about himself I might end the relationship but I would do so in a kind manner. Just like I've turned down lesbians who have expressed interest in me as a romantic partner. Something along the lines of "My sexual leanings don't lean in that direction, I don't think this is an obstacle I can overcome". And I would do so calmly, as kindly as I can, and I would never, ever pass such information on to other people, I would keep it as a confidence. Other dealbreakers for me are being super-religious and into BDSM - both of those are turn-offs for me. But I don't expect a laundry list of such things prior to a first date. It's a date, not a job interview. I have also had to be explicit about not having sex on the first date - I don't do that, I wouldn't be comfortable with that, and I want the other party to understand that up front to prevent misunderstandings. There are plenty of people willing to do that, if that's what the other party really wants they should know they should look elsewhere.

On the other hand, it is possible that I might find I can overcome the barrier of someone being transgender, even if I would never explicitly seek out someone transgender to date. It's probably more likely I'd date a transman than I'd date/become intimate with a woman, whether she's cis or trans, because I'm really slammed to the hetero side of the Kinsey scale. Intersex people - again, I don't know. But if someone I was dating divulged that to me I really, really hope my first reaction is NOT screaming and running away into the night. Then again, I've also been known to engage in a long-term relationship with someone disabled/with multiple medical problems so maybe I'm just an outlier in not having sharply defined limits to what I consider "acceptable" even if I have some strong preferences. I'm willing to at least consider exceptions.

In any case, I don't expect to know everything up front about a new dating partner, and if I find something I find a dealbreaker I can withdraw in a gentle manner rather than screaming "EW! ICK! CRAWLING HORROR!" I've dated a lot of people I've found incompatible after either one date or a few dates. It is, in fact, part of dating.

It is statistically unlikely that a cisman is going to randomly find himself dating a transwoman (or transman, for that matter, for men who like men) because the transgender are such a small portion of the population at large. So why are you in such fear of this? If this is something that keeps you up at night then YES, YOU need to be explicit about this. Frankly, I don't think transgender people want to date people who object so strongly to them and would prefer to be warned up front that this is a VERY bad thing from your viewpoint. You'd be doing both yourself and other people a favor by being explicit about your dealbreakers.

Another thing - I don't think I'd want to date someone anti-trans at this point, either. I know and care about too many transgender people now, they matter to me. I don't want to have to pick and choose my friends and associates based on what someone else considers acceptable. I consider Una a friend even if we have never met face to face, not the least of which because even while spending so much time and energy on her own community she had enough kindness left over to help my household during hard times. I don't know if she even remembers all the kindnesses she gave us, they weren't huge, except that we were very low and felt very alone so any kindness at all was a blessing. If you describe someone such as Una as "crazy" or "deluded" or "perverted" then all I can say is we desperately need more such crazy, deluded perverts in this sorry world to make it a better place. If you can't accept Una then I can't accept you. If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don't want to "waste" your time/dating on someone trans, I don't want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman's time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
  #221  
Old 11-16-2017, 10:53 AM
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Meh. Less than 20% of people are going to disagree with me and 80%+ are going to agree with me. You can't make every kneejerk liberal (or conservative) happy, you shouldn't even try.
"I wouldn't want to date someone who's transgender," and "Transgender people are morally obligated to disclose their status, regardless of any potential threat that might entail," are two different viewpoints. Don't confuse support for the reasonable former, with support for the monsterous latter.
  #222  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don't want to "waste" your time/dating on someone trans, I don't want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman's time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
You think someone who doesn't want to waste time dating someone that they are never going to have sex with "virulently anti-trans"??
  #223  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:16 AM
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Yes.

First of all, I don't think dating must always lead to sex - sometimes it lead to finding the other person is not compatible BEFORE you have sex.

If you're OK with live-and-let-live regarding transgender people even if you don't care to date them or have sex with them that's one thing, but I'm getting more than that from you. You sound like you want to be completely insulated from them at all times, and I find that.... distasteful.

Because I don't have casual sex and tend to have 1-2 year relationships as my short term relationships FOR ME it's about more than just the sexual compatibility. I don't want to date virulent racists, either, because I have friends and associates of all races. I don't want to date sexist pricks because I'm a woman who values the notion of sexual equality. I don't want to date people who find the disabled repugnant because I deeply loved someone disabled. I don't want to date homophobes because of all the homosexual, bisexual, and [fill in the blank]sexual people I care about. I'm not giving up everyone else I know to satisfy your prejudices. I don't need to date that badly, and I certainly don't need sexual intercourse that badly, that I'd trade everyone else in my life for it.

Seriously, what's the big deal here? You're on a date, the possibility of intimacy comes up, and the other party says "I think you should know, I'm transgender". Oh horrors. What if they said "I'm HIV+" or "I have a colostomy bag we'll need to work around" or "I'm prone to seizures and if I have one during sex here's what you need to do and not do". These are all things that I think are private, but should be disclosed prior to actual intimacy/sex. I'm OK with that being disclosed prior to that intimacy/sex, but not prior to the first date.

If you are actually heterosexual and you respond sexually to a transwoman that doesn't mean you're gay, it means she's woman enough to come across as a woman to your libido. If you DO have gay impulses, then for Og's sake learn to deal with them - it's nothing unusual to find yourself occasionally attracted to a member of the same sex and if you do then you can either act on it or not as you choose, but YOUR sexual responses are not the other person's fault.
  #224  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:26 AM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Yes.
Well, thanks for answering, although you are completely wrong.

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If you're OK with live-and-let-live regarding transgender people even if you don't care to date them or have sex with them that's one thing
I have never said anything but this. The same as I do for all people regardless of gender, race, sex, creed, nationality, orientation, or whatever. Except Redskins fan.

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but I'm getting more than that from you. You sound like you want to be completely insulated from them at all times, and I find that.... distasteful
I would surmise you get that because I don't agree with you. Your opinion is the best possible opinion ever, and if I don't agree, then I must be against it. The same as several other topics on this board.

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Because I don't have casual sex and tend to have 1-2 year relationships as my short term relationships FOR ME it's about more than just the sexual compatibility.
Good for you. Did you ever think that other people, most notably men, may actually have sexual compatibility in mind when going on dates?

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Seriously, what's the big deal here? You're on a date, the possibility of intimacy comes up, and the other party says "I think you should know, I'm transgender". Oh horrors. What if they said "I'm HIV+" or "I have a colostomy bag we'll need to work around" or "I'm prone to seizures and if I have one during sex here's what you need to do and not do". These are all things that I think are private, but should be disclosed prior to actual intimacy/sex. I'm OK with that being disclosed prior to that intimacy/sex, but not prior to the first date
It's not a big deal. If I'm just going to be hanging out, I don't care what you are. If I have time, and I know it's just going to be hanging out, that's cool. I don't care if someone is transgender or whatever. Just don't be a moron. Dating, for purposes of possibly having sex, is a different story. As I stated above, I can make my "Look pretty, have a vagina, don't be a moron" requirements made known up front. Although I suspect you would still consider that "anti-trans" for some reason.

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If you are actually heterosexual and you respond sexually to a transwoman that doesn't mean you're gay, it means she's woman enough to come across as a woman to your libido. If you DO have gay impulses, then for Og's sake learn to deal with them - it's nothing unusual to find yourself occasionally attracted to a member of the same sex and if you do then you can either act on it or not as you choose, but YOUR sexual responses are not the other person's fault.
This made me laugh. Thanks!
  #225  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:34 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
It is statistically unlikely that a cisman is going to randomly find himself dating a transwoman (or transman, for that matter, for men who like men) because the transgender are such a small portion of the population at large. So why are you in such fear of this? If this is something that keeps you up at night then YES, YOU need to be explicit about this. Frankly, I don't think transgender people want to date people who object so strongly to them and would prefer to be warned up front that this is a VERY bad thing from your viewpoint. You'd be doing both yourself and other people a favor by being explicit about your dealbreakers.

Another thing - I don't think I'd want to date someone anti-trans at this point, either. I know and care about too many transgender people now, they matter to me. I don't want to have to pick and choose my friends and associates based on what someone else considers acceptable. I consider Una a friend even if we have never met face to face, not the least of which because even while spending so much time and energy on her own community she had enough kindness left over to help my household during hard times. I don't know if she even remembers all the kindnesses she gave us, they weren't huge, except that we were very low and felt very alone so any kindness at all was a blessing. If you describe someone such as Una as "crazy" or "deluded" or "perverted" then all I can say is we desperately need more such crazy, deluded perverts in this sorry world to make it a better place. If you can't accept Una then I can't accept you. If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don't want to "waste" your time/dating on someone trans, I don't want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman's time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
Do you think I hate and despise transgender people because I think they should be upfront about being transgender? I don't hate transgender folks. I doubt I will ever date anyone (transgender or otherwise) again in my life so this is not some personal concern of mine.

This whole thing started because one of the complaints that Una mentioned was a transgender person who was depressed because they didn't second dates because their date didn't know that they were transgender before the date. Just statistically, about 20% of those people should have been OK with dating someone that was transgender but they weren't. Perhaps the transgender person was selecting people that were more likely to be in the "I won't date transgender" group or perhaps the dishonesty turned them off.

And as you say, it is statistically unlikely that a non-transgender man is going to ever date a transgender woman so they don't even think about it. Its not anywhere close tot he front of their mind. But the transgender woman knows that its a material fact and withholds that information.
  #226  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:52 AM
ElvisL1ves ElvisL1ves is offline
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When did Bill Clinton go after a minor, or force himself on anyone? Did I miss that in Both Sides Do It 101 class?

And what does his wife have to do with any of it?
  #227  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:08 PM
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How'd that get in the wrong thread? Disregard.
  #228  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:14 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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NVM

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  #229  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:57 PM
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There's a youtube troll who states trans are as deluded as a black man wanting to be white, I don't totally disagree with him. But anyone with enough courage to go through a complicated, dangerous and painful surgical procedure deserves kudos. Not only that but one look at my screen name will tell you that I'm the last person who would ever criticize some for there sexual orientation.
  #230  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:00 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by furryman View Post
There's a youtube troll who states trans are as deluded as a black man wanting to be white, I don't totally disagree with him. But anyone with enough courage to go through a complicated, dangerous and painful surgical procedure deserves kudos. Not only that but one look at my screen name will tell you that I'm the last person who would ever criticize some for there sexual orientation.
I don't think anyone in this thread has made an argument that all transgender folks are mentally ill or merely have some sort of kink. I try to imagine what it would take for me to want to undergo gender reassignment surgery. It would have to be a powerful impulse that could not be satisfied by any other means. I would literally have to believe that my life depended on it for me not to just try to fake my way through life focusing on other things like my career or try to become some sort of androgynous asexual cog in the machine.

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 11-16-2017 at 03:00 PM.
  #231  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Good for you. Did you ever think that other people, most notably men, may actually have sexual compatibility in mind when going on dates?
I am very aware of that, which is why I am clear with people that I do not have sex on the first date, do not do casual sex, and so forth. This does, of course, limit my dating pool but I'm totally OK with that. I'm not looking for quantity. And if a quick move towards sex is why you are dating I'd appreciate knowing that up front. Seems that's all part of proper communication, doesn't it?

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It's not a big deal. If I'm just going to be hanging out, I don't care what you are. If I have time, and I know it's just going to be hanging out, that's cool. I don't care if someone is transgender or whatever. Just don't be a moron. Dating, for purposes of possibly having sex, is a different story. As I stated above, I can make my "Look pretty, have a vagina, don't be a moron" requirements made known up front. Although I suspect you would still consider that "anti-trans" for some reason.
Er... quite a few transwomen actually do have vaginas. Maybe you should just say "I am not interested in a relationship with someone transgender" just like I say up front "I do not do casual sex or sex on the first date" in order to minimize ambiguity.

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This made me laugh. Thanks!
You're welcome.
  #232  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I am very aware of that, which is why I am clear with people that I do not have sex on the first date, do not do casual sex, and so forth. This does, of course, limit my dating pool but I'm totally OK with that. I'm not looking for quantity. And if a quick move towards sex is why you are dating I'd appreciate knowing that up front. Seems that's all part of proper communication, doesn't it?
Sure does.

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Maybe you should just say "I am not interested in a relationship with someone transgender" just like I say up front "I do not do casual sex or sex on the first date" in order to minimize ambiguity
I've already agreed up thread that this would be the correct thing to do.
  #233  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Do you think I hate and despise transgender people because I think they should be upfront about being transgender? I don't hate transgender folks. I doubt I will ever date anyone (transgender or otherwise) again in my life so this is not some personal concern of mine.
I think what we disagree about is when that revelation should occur. I don't have a problem with it being delayed until intimacy is about to occur. Then again, if you're into having sex on the first that will come up pretty quickly, unlike myself that likes to take a little more time to get to know a person, first.

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This whole thing started because one of the complaints that Una mentioned was a transgender person who was depressed because they didn't second dates because their date didn't know that they were transgender before the date. Just statistically, about 20% of those people should have been OK with dating someone that was transgender but they weren't. Perhaps the transgender person was selecting people that were more likely to be in the "I won't date transgender" group or perhaps the dishonesty turned them off.
There could be a lot of reasons a particular person isn't getting a second date. I think being transgender is somewhat like being disabled - a lot of folks are just not going to want to rub naughties with you no matter what. This may be exacerbated for some people post-transition if pre-transition they had little or not problem getting second dates. Transitioning to a preferred gender means your dating pool is going to shrink enormously. I'm sorry that's the case, but I would hope that that is made clear to people before they begin their physical transition, and it's yet another reason for competent psychological counseling.

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And as you say, it is statistically unlikely that a non-transgender man is going to ever date a transgender woman so they don't even think about it. Its not anywhere close tot he front of their mind. But the transgender woman knows that its a material fact and withholds that information.
Like I said, I think our disagreement is about when this is made clear. What other medical items are you supposed to reveal before the first date? Colostomy bags? Infertility? Skin grafts?
  #234  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
The notion that everyone has to go around declaring their aversion to dating transgender is silly tho. [...] I think HIV+ people should be upfront about that too. [...] I am combatting the notion that there is nothing wrong with this dishonesty. [...] If you don't want to be dishonest, you have to be upfront.
Emphasis added. So why are you letting the transgender-dating-averse men get away with the dishonesty of not being upfront about the fact that they don't want to date transgender people?

As you and molten noted, a lot of transgender-dating-averse men don't want to reveal that fact about themselves to potential dates because a lot of women will find it unappealing. But if they don't want to be dishonest, according to you, they have to be upfront.

What you've got here, Damuri Ajashi, isn't an ethical argument. It's merely a retrofitted rationalization for pandering to the preferences of straight cisgender men at the expense of everybody else's.

"I shouldn't have to be upfront about my objections to dating transgender women, because that might get negative reactions from women in general. But transgender women should feel obligated to be upfront about their transgender status, and HIV+ women also should feel obligated to be upfront about their HIV+ status. There's nothing wrong with my concealing the characteristics that other people probably wouldn't like about me, but other people are being dishonest if they don't immediately reveal the characteristics that I probably wouldn't like about them."

Personally, I still prefer the far more straightforward and fair ethical approach that recognizes that it's not dishonest for anybody to conceal personal information from potential dates, but if you do conceal a personal issue that's very important to you for dating compatibility, you may sometimes find out you've been dating someone you're not compatible with.

And if that happens, you don't get to blame the other person for having concealed information from you while you were busy concealing from them the fact that you wanted to know it.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-16-2017 at 06:27 PM.
  #235  
Old 11-16-2017, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
As you and molten noted, a lot of transgender-dating-averse men don't want to reveal that fact about themselves to potential dates because a lot of women will find it unappealing
Why do you think a lot of women will find it unappealing?
  #236  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:13 PM
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Why do you think a lot of women will find it unappealing?
Is your question about the "why", or the "lot"? That is, are you asking me for (A) my opinion on why women feel that way, or (B) evidence supporting the assertion that a lot of women do feel that way?

If your question is (B), well, this wasn't my assertion originally, it was molten's:
Quote:
Originally Posted by molten
No man is going to write (if dating online): "must have real vagina." Simply because those men who won't write that will be perceived by some in a more positive light and have an increased target audience [...]
And Damuri Ajashi seems to concur that this negative perception exists:
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
So you recognize at least some downsides to asking everyone you go out with if they are transgender [...]
Which sits a little oddly with Damuri Ajashi's simultaneous insistence that it's so overwhelmingly normal and natural and nearly-universal for straight cisgender men to want to avoid any kind of dating activity whatsoever involving a transgender woman.

I would think that if strongly wanting to avoid any risk at all of going on even a first date with a woman who happens to be transgender is really such a typical attitude for such a vast majority of straight men, they wouldn't be at all embarrassed or hesitant to admit it right up front.

If your question is (A), then I think Broomstick said it best:
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Originally Posted by Broomstick
It is statistically unlikely that a cisman is going to randomly find himself dating a transwoman (or transman, for that matter, for men who like men) because the transgender are such a small portion of the population at large. So why are you in such fear of this? If this is something that keeps you up at night then YES, YOU need to be explicit about this. [...]

If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don't want to "waste" your time/dating on someone trans, I don't want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman's time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
Being so anxious to avoid any possible dating activity whatsoever with transgender women that you require them to pre-emptively announce their transgender status even without being asked about it does suggest the possibility of transphobia. As Miller put it,
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Originally Posted by Miller
"I wouldn't want to date someone who's transgender," and "Transgender people are morally obligated to disclose their status, regardless of any potential threat that might entail," are two different viewpoints.
  #237  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:20 PM
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You think Broomstick said it best when she states that not wanting to date someone who does not have the anatomy that you are seeking in a date is "virulently anti-trans"?
  #238  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:49 PM
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You think Broomstick said it best when she states that not wanting to date someone who does not have the anatomy that you are seeking in a date is "virulently anti-trans"?
Maybe you could try addressing that sentence in the context of the post in which it appeared?
  #239  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:51 PM
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You think Broomstick said it best when she states that not wanting to date someone who does not have the anatomy that you are seeking in a date is "virulently anti-trans"?
No, that's not the part I quoted. I don't think that the mere fact of being not being sexually attracted to a transgender person is "anti-trans" at all, much less "virulently" so.

But I do agree that a lot of straight cisgender women wouldn't want to date a man who was virulently anti-trans. And I think that being super-averse to even the possibility of even starting to date a transgender woman, to the point where you insist that transgender women are obligated to announce their status pre-emptively to all potential dates without even being asked, can raise some red flags in the "anti-trans" category.
  #240  
Old 11-16-2017, 07:54 PM
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Maybe you could try addressing that sentence in the context of the post in which it appeared?
Sure.

Here is my post:

"You think someone who doesn't want to waste time dating someone that they are never going to have sex with "virulently anti-trans"??"

And here is her answer:

"Yes"
  #241  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:07 PM
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And was that one word the whole sum and total of her post, or did she write an additional five paragraphs of clarification and elaboration of her argument?

Last edited by Miller; 11-16-2017 at 08:07 PM.
  #242  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:08 PM
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No, that's not the part I quoted. I don't think that the mere fact of being not being sexually attracted to a transgender person is "anti-trans" at all, much less "virulently" so
OK.

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But I do agree that a lot of straight cisgender women wouldn't want to date a man who was virulently anti-trans
I agree. Just like I would agree that a lot of women wouldn't want to date a raging racist, or an extreme homophobic.

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And I think that being super-averse to even the possibility of even starting to date a transgender woman, to the point where you insist that transgender women are obligated to announce their status pre-emptively to all potential dates without even being asked, can raise some red flags in the "anti-trans" category.
Maybe. But I would guess that most guys who don't want to date a transgender woman don't want to because of anatomical differences which says nothing about gender or anything, but simply biology.
  #243  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:14 PM
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And was that one word the whole sum and total of her post, or did she write an additional five paragraphs of clarification and elaboration of her argument?
She did write additional paragraphs that include her telling me that I want to be completely insulated from transgender people and she finds that distasteful.

Then she states her casual sex preferences and what she excludes from her dating pool.

Then she asks what the big deal is being told that the person who you thought was a biological woman turns out to be not that.

Then some weird stuff that was so off base that it made me laugh.

So, is that what you mean by "clarification and elaboration"?
  #244  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:28 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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But I would guess that most guys who don't want to date a transgender woman don't want to because of anatomical differences which says nothing about gender or anything, but simply biology.
But I'm not saying anything negative about merely not wanting to date a transgender woman. Some men don't object to it, some do. No ish.

What I said could raise some red flags was insistence on the importance of avoiding even the temporary and superficial appearance of possibly ever wanting to date a transgender woman. Especially when that takes the form of demanding that transgender women prominently and publicly label their status to make it easier to avoid dating them.
  #245  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
I consider Una a friend even if we have never met face to face, not the least of which because even while spending so much time and energy on her own community she had enough kindness left over to help my household during hard times. I don't know if she even remembers all the kindnesses she gave us, they weren't huge, except that we were very low and felt very alone so any kindness at all was a blessing. If you describe someone such as Una as "crazy" or "deluded" or "perverted" then all I can say is we desperately need more such crazy, deluded perverts in this sorry world to make it a better place. If you can't accept Una then I can't accept you. If you are virulently anti-trans let me know that up front, because just as you don't want to "waste" your time/dating on someone trans, I don't want to waste MY time, this strictly heterosexual ciswoman's time, dealing with someone who will hate and despise people I care about and value as fellow human beings regardless of other details.
Thank you Broomie; I remember the old days too. You have been a friend to me and showed me many kindnesses as well, many times.
  #246  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:38 PM
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But I'm not saying anything negative about merely not wanting to date a transgender woman. Some men don't object to it, some do. No ish.

What I said could raise some red flags was insistence on the importance of avoiding even the temporary and superficial appearance of possibly ever wanting to date a transgender woman. Especially when that takes the form of demanding that transgender women prominently and publicly label their status to make it easier to avoid dating them.
But it seems to me that you are trying to establish that men want to avoid the appearance of dating a transgender woman due to some stigma that the man may face for being on a date with a transgender woman because people might think he is gay or whatever. And I am saying that most men don't want to go on a date with a transgender woman because she doesn't conform to the biology that a man is looking for on a date.

Here's one way to look at it:

Man: Yay! I have a date tonight with a hot chick I met on a dating site. If things go well, maybe I will have sex tonight!

After the date is almost over and she tells him she is transgender: Damn, why didn't she say she was transgender beforehand, I wouldn't have wasted my time.

It's not:

Man: Yay! I have a date tonight with a hot chick I met on a dating site. If things go well, maybe I will have sex tonight!

After the date is almost over and she tells him she is transgender: OMG! Gross! I'm going to throw up because people might think I'm gay and that is gross!!
  #247  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I try to imagine what it would take for me to want to undergo gender reassignment surgery. It would have to be a powerful impulse that could not be satisfied by any other means. I would literally have to believe that my life depended on it for me not to just try to fake my way through life focusing on other things like my career or try to become some sort of androgynous asexual cog in the machine.
I'm not meaning this to be snarky, but educational.

The focus on the parts is part of the problem.

The surgeries are actually relatively easy. Relative to the potential loss of marriage, children, friends, relatives, community standing, church, housing, employment and career.

Please consider re-calibrating what about us seems like it would be most difficult. I won't make light of the medical aspect of transition, I've had several surgeries. But...honestly, all the physical pain, the psychodrama, etc. around the medical part of transition, pales next to the familial, career, social, legal, and other aspects.

Ask yourself why surgery seems to be the most difficult part to imagine. Because I and all my kin would assure you, it's really not.
  #248  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:46 PM
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You think Broomstick said it best when she states that not wanting to date someone who does not have the anatomy that you are seeking in a date is "virulently anti-trans"?
I did not say that you, specifically, are "virulently anti-trans" but if I read in a profile that you will not date transgender people, period, then yes, I am going suspect there may be some sort of bias there. I kind of wonder about people who would say they would never ever date someone of a different ethnicity, too. I defend their right to choose the sexual partners they prefer, but that doesn't meant I have to agree with their preferences.

I want to date people more open minded than that. That is my choice, just as it is your choice to NOT date transwomen. If you want me to respect your choices then you need to respect mine.

I am definitely concerned that you insist on transgender people having to announce that publicly and repeatedly when such admission can still carry very real physical risks. When people choose to divulge that should be up to them, just divulging homosexuality or interest in BDSM or polyamory should be left up to the individual, with the exception that they should divulge that before actual sex/intimacy takes place. If you aren't intimate with them it's none of your business.

There is also the fact that in your particular case it's not just that you don't want to date transwomen but some of the other statements you've made over time about transgender people that leads me to think you have some bias against them.
  #249  
Old 11-16-2017, 08:53 PM
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I did not say that you, specifically, are "virulently anti-trans" but if I read in a profile that you will not date transgender people, period, then yes, I am going suspect there may be some sort of bias there
You wouldn't think that I maybe wanted to date someone that I could have sex with? It's automatically some sort of transgender bias?

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I am definitely concerned that you insist on transgender people having to announce that publicly and repeatedly when such admission can still carry very real physical risks. When people choose to divulge that should be up to them, just divulging homosexuality or interest in BDSM or polyamory should be left up to the individual, with the exception that they should divulge that before actual sex/intimacy takes place. If you aren't intimate with them it's none of your business.
I don't insist on that actually. If you had actually read this thread, you would know that. I would put in my profile that I am looking for a gender-typical woman. I would expect that any transgender woman would not reply to my profile, thus I wouldn't insist on anything. I try to avoid telling other people what to do, and this thread has convinced me that was exactly what I was doing, so I changed my view.

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There is also the fact that in your particular case it's not just that you don't want to date transwomen but some of the other statements you've made over time about transgender people that leads me to think you have some bias against them.
Yeah, you've said this before. And when I asked you to produce those statements you failed to do so. I expect you won't be able to this time either. If you can produce one statement of mine, in context, that shows I have a bias against transgender people, I will apologize. If not, I suggest you retract your statement.
  #250  
Old 11-16-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
She did write additional paragraphs that include her telling me that I want to be completely insulated from transgender people and she finds that distasteful.
That is how you come across to me. In other words, it's an opinion. If you feel that is an inaccurate view of you then you might ask why someone has that view of you. Or maybe you don't care.

Quote:
Then she asks what the big deal is being told that the person who you thought was a biological woman turns out to be not that.
Well... yeah.

What is the big deal? If you met a woman and was sexually interested in her would you freak out if she said thanks, but no thanks, she's a lesbian? Or asexual? Do you freak out if a gay man inquires if you are into men? OK, she's not in the group you want to date, say thanks but no thanks, and get on with life.

Or do you make every woman you consider dating fill out a 4 page questionnaire to make sure they conform in all ways to your dating pool criteria? Part of dating is that sometimes it doesn't work out. Does that waste your time? Well, no more than you are wasting the other person's time.

I've yet to meet someone transgender who wants to live a lie (that's sort of the whole point about transition, isn't it?), they want to be with someone who will accept that they are transgender. They don't want to waste THEIR time dating YOU.

The more up front YOU are the more up front other people will be. Why does everyone else have to guess what you're assumptions are while you demand to know all sorts of things about them? Why doesn't it cut both ways?

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Then some weird stuff that was so off base that it made me laugh.
I think at least part of the problem is that my viewpoint is so far from yours that you have trouble wrapping your head around it.
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