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  #51  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:36 PM
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This page on CNN shows a shocking amount of men in the various videos. Is there a chance you are incorrect about what you think the pictures on CNN will be?

Last edited by manson1972; 10-22-2018 at 04:36 PM.
  #52  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
This morning Trump tweeted that he was going to cut off financial aid to Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador because of the migrants.I note that his tweet shows an incredible ignorance of what governments actually do and do not do: most governments of free peoples do not prevent their own citizens from traveling outside their country.
Really? These 5k to 7k people are just marching through Mexico on their way to the U.S. for a vacation?
  #53  
Old 10-22-2018, 04:44 PM
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Really? These 5k to 7k people are just marching through Mexico on their way to the U.S. for a vacation?
CONGRATULATIONS!

This post wins the October 22nd, 2018 SDMB Elections Forum prize for Dumbest Non-Sequitur Response Masquerading As Relevant Commentary To A Previous Post!

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 10-22-2018 at 04:45 PM.
  #54  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:06 PM
Bijou Drains Bijou Drains is online now
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Really? These 5k to 7k people are just marching through Mexico on their way to the U.S. for a vacation?
actually they are all going to work at Mar A Lago this winter
  #55  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:15 PM
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I'm seeing ~7k. How accurate that count is, I don't know.
7200 according to the UN a couple of hours ago, although I've heard estimates of at least 7500.
  #56  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:15 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is online now
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CONGRATULATIONS!

This post wins the October 22nd, 2018 SDMB Elections Forum prize for Dumbest Non-Sequitur Response Masquerading As Relevant Commentary To A Previous Post!
It was in reply to your more ridiculous post implying that Trump was suggesting that these countries needed to forcibly keep their own people from "traveling." Trump is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people a la the Berlin Wall, he is saying that if we are giving you $200 million in foreign aid, then you need to create a society so that people are not leaving in droves.

Of course, you knew that, but it was too tempting not to take yet another shot at Trump. Christ, we cannot even have a debate about issues anymore. It's all about how evil, evil, evil Trump is.
  #57  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:27 PM
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... Christ, we cannot even have a debate about issues anymore. It's all about how evil, evil, evil Trump is.
This has been largely the case for many months now.
  #58  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:34 PM
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It was in reply to your more ridiculous post implying that Trump was suggesting that these countries needed to forcibly keep their own people from "traveling." Trump is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people a la the Berlin Wall, he is saying that if we are giving you $200 million in foreign aid, then you need to create a society so that people are not leaving in droves.

Of course, you knew that, but it was too tempting not to take yet another shot at Trump. Christ, we cannot even have a debate about issues anymore. It's all about how evil, evil, evil Trump is.
"[The President's] approach to this issue is not helpful. We have very little foreign aid going, and the aid we do have helps them with law enforcement, drug interdiction, and with programs to help that population stay there. Cutting those programs indiscriminately, those benefit us as well, and so that needs to be thoughtfully done.

"These, for the most part, overwhelmingly, are people who are either fleeing violence or looking for a better life. We have programs for some of them — asylum programs… obviously we can’t accept everyone. We have to have border security, but it needs to be done in a thoughtful manner." - Sen. Jeff Flake (R - AZ)

cite 1
cite 2
  #59  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
It was in reply to your more ridiculous post implying that Trump was suggesting that these countries needed to forcibly keep their own people from "traveling." Trump is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people a la the Berlin Wall, he is saying that if we are giving you $200 million in foreign aid, then you need to create a society so that people are not leaving in droves.

Of course, you knew that, but it was too tempting not to take yet another shot at Trump. Christ, we cannot even have a debate about issues anymore. It's all about how evil, evil, evil Trump is.
I didn't imply anything, Trump said it himself; I even quoted him. I'm given to understand, via his supporters, that he's a plain-talking straight shooter who says what he means, so that's how I treat his words: as what he means.

And no, your reply wasn't actually in response to anything I wrote; it was completely irrelevant.

I'm awful curious: how do you know what I know? I agree that we cannot have debates about issues anymore: one side claims to know what the other side really knows (hint: that's you and your side). That means you aren't listening at all, you're just dismissing everything I say.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 10-22-2018 at 06:55 PM.
  #60  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:00 PM
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Taking a step back for a second... is this "caravan" a real thing, in that it is qualitatively different from the normal state of affairs? If so, why now? What triggered it?
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  #61  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:18 PM
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It was in reply to your more ridiculous post implying that Trump was suggesting that these countries needed to forcibly keep their own people from "traveling."
You clearly had what I hope was merely a temporary lapse in reading comprehension when you read Bo's post.
  #62  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:08 PM
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You must understand, The Leader, Himself, often speaks in parable. Like when he says "Go ahead, beat the snot out of that guy, I'll pay your legal bills", he is really making a shrewd and indirect reference to the relationship between law and violence. That's like, totally parabolic.

And passing a new tax cut before November without Congress even being in session! Loaves and fishes, folks, signs and wonders....
  #63  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:38 PM
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Taking a step back for a second... is this "caravan" a real thing, in that it is qualitatively different from the normal state of affairs? If so, why now? What triggered it?
The overall rate of migration is unchanged (as, say, a moving three-month average). There has been a small uptick recently in those specifically leaving Honduras, in part stemming from violence following disputed elections there.

As I mentioned upthread, this year more migrants are traveling in groups than before, to avoid being raped or robbed en route — though it should be noted that individual Mexicans (most rather poor themselves) often show great generosity toward these people.
  #64  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:29 PM
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Explosive Device Found Near George Soros’s Home in Westchester County

Spreading Soros caravan conspiracy theories is going to get someone killed. I'm looking at you Matt Gaetz but you're not the only one.
  #65  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:46 PM
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Trump is demanding that the Central American countries start prohibiting their countries from coming the America, and if they don't, he's going to cut off aid to them.
1-How does a country even pretending to be a democracy stop their citizens from legally leaving the country?
2-The people are coming to the United States because of violence and poverty in their home countries. Does Trump think that by cutting aid there will be some miraculous economic revolution?
  #66  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
This morning Trump tweeted that he was going to cut off financial aid to Honduras, Guatemala and El Salvador because of the migrants.I note that his tweet shows an incredible ignorance of what governments actually do and do not do: most governments of free peoples do not prevent their own citizens from traveling outside their country.
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I had never thought about it that way. That is utterly terrifying.
I've seen a bunch of this guy's videos over the past few days and he thinks Trump's comments are terrifying as well. The video is a talking head, a guy named Beau who lives somewhere in the SE US. I find his videos thoughtful, informative and well-reasoned; YMMV. I'm very glad he's posting these videos. I think he has a good perspective and I hope more people watch and listen to him.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 10-23-2018 at 12:23 AM.
  #67  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:29 AM
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The overall rate of migration is unchanged (as, say, a moving three-month average). There has been a small uptick recently in those specifically leaving Honduras, in part stemming from violence following disputed elections there.

As I mentioned upthread, this year more migrants are traveling in groups than before, to avoid being raped or robbed en route — though it should be noted that individual Mexicans (most rather poor themselves) often show great generosity toward these people.
Bolding mine.

When the Mexicans were asked why they were helping these groups, they replied because they are humans.

I wish Trump would learn this.
  #68  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:08 AM
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It was in reply to your more ridiculous post implying that Trump was suggesting that these countries needed to forcibly keep their own people from "traveling." Trump is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people a la the Berlin Wall, he is saying that if we are giving you $200 million in foreign aid, then you need to create a society so that people are not leaving in droves.
This would be more plausible if he hadn't repeatedly talked about other countries' governments actively choosing to send or not send migrants to the USA.

Look at what he said about the diversity visa program, for example: "I mean we actually have lottery systems where you go to countries and they do lotteries for who comes into the United States. Now, you know they are not going to have their best people in the lottery, because they’re not going to put their best people in a lottery. They don’t want to have their good people to leave."

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-23-2018 at 03:12 AM.
  #69  
Old 10-23-2018, 04:05 AM
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Prediction: this caravan is going to fall apart starting November 7.

The timing of this caravan is totally suspicious. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'm going with the people on page 1 who suggested this is a Republican sponsored event. Only, of course, not openly so. It shouldn't take much to organize it, maybe a couple million $ and a couple dozen operatives, if that. The whole thing reeks of a concerted effort to get the Republican base energized.

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  #70  
Old 10-23-2018, 06:57 AM
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If I had to guess what the hustle is, I'd say that we'll eventually learn that this "caravan" is actually a pretty routine and unorganized movement of people, and that the suspicious timing is all in the portrayal of it as an unparalleled threat to the integrity of the republic.

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  #71  
Old 10-23-2018, 07:31 AM
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Wait, this supposed caravan is just now crossing into Mexico from Guatemala? People know Mexico is big, right? Even if it stays organized and moves twenty miles a day straight toward Matamoros/Brownsville, it won't get near the US border until around Christmas.

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  #72  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:26 AM
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Wait, this supposed caravan is just now crossing into Mexico from Guatemala? People know Mexico is big, right? Even if it stays organized and moves twenty miles a day straight toward Matamoros/Brownsville, it won't get near the US border until around Christmas.
In the meantime, photos like these make lovely campaign flyers.
  #73  
Old 10-23-2018, 09:09 AM
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Bolding mine.

When the Mexicans were asked why they were helping these groups, they replied because they are humans.

I wish Trump would learn this.
Good luck with that.
  #74  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:04 AM
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If I had to guess what the hustle is, I'd say that we'll eventually learn that this "caravan" is actually a pretty routine and unorganized movement of people, and that the suspicious timing is all in the portrayal of it as an unparalleled threat to the integrity of the republic.
I agree. We didn't even hear about migrant caravans until Trump was in office, yet apparently they're an annual thing since 2010, and are more of a protest than some kind of actual migrant influx.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/...of-immigrants/

That said, I think that if they were what Trump and the GOP is claiming, then maybe they'd have a point to make. It's not necessarily our problem that a bunch of people packed up, wandered through Mexico and showed up on our border. We may have humanitarian obligations to them, but we don't have a legal obligation to let them in either.

I'm kind of stuck- we seem to be hamstrung every way we look if we don't want to just accept every Central American immigrant who happens to show up. On one hand, we can't just tell them to bugger off and leave it to the Mexicans, but nor can we go and clean house in Honduras either- they're a sovereign nation, no matter how corrupt and lawless they may be. So how do we handle that? Seems like we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
  #75  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:44 AM
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Why isn't anyone talking about the unknown Middle Easterners that are mixed in? I've seen suicide bomb vests strapped to unknown numbers of scary looking people in the photos.
  #76  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:46 AM
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On one hand, we can't just tell them to bugger off and leave it to the Mexicans, but nor can we go and clean house in Honduras either- they're a sovereign nation, no matter how corrupt and lawless they may be. So how do we handle that? Seems like we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.
Why do you rule out that first On-The-One-Hand option? Let’s say that we do, in fact, feel like telling them to bugger off; and, if they happen to be standing in Mexico when we tell them that, then, okay, by default it gets left “to the Mexicans”. So?
  #77  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:50 AM
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Trump is demanding that the Central American countries start prohibiting their countries from coming the America, and if they don't, he's going to cut off aid to them.
1-How does a country even pretending to be a democracy stop their citizens from legally leaving the country?
This is an excellent issue. Are countries legally and morally responsible for their citizens once they leave? I don't know.

In this case, the Hondurans are illegally entering other countries.

If 7500 members of a white American militia decided to go colonize a part of Honduras, would the USA be obligated to bring them back or even stop them from leaving?
  #78  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:05 AM
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Why isn't anyone talking about the unknown Middle Easterners that are mixed in?
"[That's] a canard and a fear tactic." - Sen. Jeff Flake

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  #79  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:05 AM
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First, is there actually anything happening? Those pictures I see on the teevee make me thing the right wing has decided to steal the "Crisis Actor" tactic....
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  #80  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:35 AM
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I've seen suicide bomb vests strapped to unknown numbers of scary looking people in the photos.
No, you haven't.
  #81  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:46 AM
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No, you haven't.
Poe's Law (I hope!)
  #82  
Old 10-23-2018, 12:52 PM
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I've seen suicide bomb vests strapped to unknown numbers of scary looking people in the photos.
Please share said photos. Thanks in advance.
  #83  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:42 PM
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Why do you rule out that first On-The-One-Hand option? Let’s say that we do, in fact, feel like telling them to bugger off; and, if they happen to be standing in Mexico when we tell them that, then, okay, by default it gets left “to the Mexicans”. So?
It's the humanitarian argument- if we have thousands of hungry, homeless people showing up on our doorstep, and said doorstep is a nation that's rather dysfunctional and impoverished, is it the ethical and moral thing to just shut the border and tell them to fuck off? I don't think so.

But it's also not automatically our problem because these people just decided they wanted to come here either- we can't be responsible for what happens to anyone who wants to come here, and who has bad stuff happen to them in the attempt, or who doesn't follow the rules.

That's why I said that we're kind of caught- neither option is great for the US.

The real villain here is the Mexican government; they're just passing the buck, which is shitty. This should be their problem- thousands of people just showing up illegally, but apparently they're willing to just let them go.
  #84  
Old 10-23-2018, 02:48 PM
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Please share said photos. Thanks in advance.
I said Poe's Law, people!

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...ostcount=39371
  #85  
Old 10-23-2018, 03:19 PM
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I had not read this thread until now, but I indicated to a friend earlier via e-mail the possibility that this whole thing is an engineered Republican reelection ploy. Now I see other Dopers here saying the same thing. I was being sort of tongue in cheek but what gives the prospect some credibility is their outrageous behavior in other regards.
  #86  
Old 10-23-2018, 04:11 PM
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Everyone else figured it out. I wouldn't worry about two who can't.
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:00 PM
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No, you haven't.
I said "unknown numbers". Zero is a number, isn't it? I made a fact-free assertion, just like the president.
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:01 PM
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:16 PM
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...The President also tried — and failed — to get Vice President Mike Pence to accuse Democrats of funding the caravan, and to say there were Islamic State members in the caravan.

Pence did say that, during a phone call earlier Tuesday, the vice president of Honduras had told him that the group “was organized by leftist organizations and financed by Venezuela.”

“What else did they say, Mike, about ISIS?” Trump attempted. “Did they say something?”

They hadn’t. Pence returned to talking about leftist groups....
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/n...t-conspiracies

Yeah, sure. First, find a bunch of radical Islamic terrorists who speak Spanish. With a Honduran accent. A passing familiarity with Catholic customs and practices would help. Skin tone is about right, so that's a plus. Blend right in. For maybe thirty seconds.

Last edited by elucidator; 10-23-2018 at 05:17 PM. Reason: malform follows malfunction
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:05 PM
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You clearly had what I hope was merely a temporary lapse in reading comprehension when you read Bo's post.
I hope it is temporary, but it remains. Especially with follow up posts like this:

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Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen View Post
Trump is demanding that the Central American countries start prohibiting their countries from coming the America, and if they don't, he's going to cut off aid to them.
1-How does a country even pretending to be a democracy stop their citizens from legally leaving the country?
2-The people are coming to the United States because of violence and poverty in their home countries. Does Trump think that by cutting aid there will be some miraculous economic revolution?
1) Again, Trump (or anyone else for that matter) is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people.

2) Trump is simply demanding that we get value for our money or else it being cut off. If you could show me that the corrupt governments in those countries are investing every single penny of that money wisely, but damn, they just cannot seem to have a functioning society, then you have something. We have been giving money for years with no results.
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Old 10-23-2018, 07:54 PM
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2) Trump is simply demanding that we get value for our money or else it being cut off. If you could show me that the corrupt governments in those countries are investing every single penny of that money wisely, but damn, they just cannot seem to have a functioning society, then you have something. We have been giving money for years with no results.
Boy howdy, you're reading a metric ton of complexity into what Trump means. He ought to hire you as his interpreter.
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Old 10-23-2018, 08:12 PM
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It's the humanitarian argument- if we have thousands of hungry, homeless people showing up on our doorstep, and said doorstep is a nation that's rather dysfunctional and impoverished, is it the ethical and moral thing to just shut the border and tell them to fuck off? I don't think so.

But it's also not automatically our problem because these people just decided they wanted to come here either- we can't be responsible for what happens to anyone who wants to come here, and who has bad stuff happen to them in the attempt, or who doesn't follow the rules.

That's why I said that we're kind of caught- neither option is great for the US.

The real villain here is the Mexican government; they're just passing the buck, which is shitty. This should be their problem- thousands of people just showing up illegally, but apparently they're willing to just let them go.
Well, apparently a lot of these people typically decide to stay in Mexico and apply for asylum there. No idea how likely those applications are to be approved. Possibly some of them decide to stay in Mexico illegally. But if the Mexican government doesn't think it's a big deal to have Hondurans moving to their country permanently, why should they object to just letting them pass through on the way to their ultimate destinations?

Last edited by Thing Fish; 10-23-2018 at 08:15 PM.
  #93  
Old 10-23-2018, 08:21 PM
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...2) Trump is simply demanding that we get value for our money or else it being cut off. If you could show me that the corrupt governments in those countries are investing every single penny of that money wisely, but damn, they just cannot seem to have a functioning society, then you have something. We have been giving money for years with no results.
We don't give money to countries to "get results", we give it to them to help people.
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Old 10-23-2018, 08:51 PM
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It's unclear to me on further examination what the Mexican government policy actually is.

This official statement sounds sympathetic to the caravaneers, but also says that Mexico has deported 400 of them. Clearly they could easily round them all up (or at least force them to disperse into smaller, less obvious, groups), and they aren't doing that, so why pick on those 400 guys in particular?
  #95  
Old 10-23-2018, 09:24 PM
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Boy howdy, you're reading a metric ton of complexity into what Trump means. He ought to hire you as his interpreter.
It's too bad for all these complex interpretations that Donald Trump is an actual person who keeps opening his mouth and giving the impression that he thinks all immigration to the United States is a perpetual Mariel Boatlift from every shithole country on the planet.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-23-2018 at 09:28 PM.
  #96  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
1) Again, Trump (or anyone else for that matter) is not saying that these countries should imprison their own people.
No one in this thread has made that argument. Congratulations on once again posting something completely irrelevant! You're good at this!
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
2) Trump is simply demanding that we get value for our money or else it being cut off. If you could show me that the corrupt governments in those countries are investing every single penny of that money wisely, but damn, they just cannot seem to have a functioning society, then you have something. We have been giving money for years with no results.
No, that isn't what he said. That's your interpretation of what he said, one made without any reliance on his words at all. In fact, I'm suspicious that you just made the whole thing up yourself, just like Donald Trump makes things up. Because you can't possibly know what he's thinking, anymore than the rest of us can. But some of us are going by his words, not by our desires.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 10-23-2018 at 10:05 PM.
  #97  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:43 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is online now
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
We don't give money to countries to "get results", we give it to them to help people.
Who is this "we" you are referring to?
  #98  
Old 10-23-2018, 10:57 PM
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Rick Kitchen Rick Kitchen is online now
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A star of David was seen on a truck where the migrant caravan was marching, and some of the marchers scrambled on board. According to the insane, this is proof, I tell you, proof, that George Soros is funding the caravan.
(warning, right wing sludge)
https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/who...-star-of-david
  #99  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:01 PM
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Snowboarder Bo Snowboarder Bo is offline
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Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
Who is this "we" you are referring to?
This brief post brings to mind several possibilities to explain it's presence in the thread.
  #100  
Old 10-23-2018, 11:59 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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Love the insert from Wikipedia explaining to the reader what the "Star of David" is.
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