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Old 06-16-2019, 04:03 PM
Zeke N. Destroi is offline
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The Naomi Wolf Lying Thread For Lying Liars


Surprise, surprise! Naomi Wolf has been caught out lying yet again. I'm sure in a moment there will be monkeys leaping to the defense of the indefensible and that is fine.

Until then, the non-simian among you can enjoy reading this from the BBC (with a link to her side-splitting twitter defense) and listening to this this the interview during which she momentarily realized that she was a lying, disingenuous, ignorant bitch and then scuttled away from it. The good part starts at about the 18 minute mark.

Didn't understand a term upon which she based a major argument, championned the super sympathetic case of a 14 year old who was executed (he wasn't) for being gay (or for raping a 6 year old boy, easy to confuse since Naomi seems to think they are equivalent.)

At least this is the first... second.... third(?) time she's been caught out spewing demonstrable horseshit under the auspice of authority in order to promote her agenda and line her pockets.

As for the book, she seems to have put as much effort into her research as she did her thinking.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:09 PM
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I'm a Lying Liar and there is nothing here for me. You Liar.
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:11 PM
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Who is Naomi Wolf?
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:29 PM
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Who is Naomi Wolf?
Just some woman. You can ignore her.






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Old 06-16-2019, 04:32 PM
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Her publisher has recalled her latest book.

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Houghton Mifflin Harcourt initially stood by plans to publish the book on 18 June in the US, describing the mistake over the executions as an unfortunate error, and declaring: “We believe the overall thesis of the book Outrages still holds.” But the publisher told the New York Times on Thursday that the book will be delayed.

“As we have been working with Naomi Wolf to make corrections to Outrages, new questions have arisen that require more time to explore,” it said in a statement. “We are postponing publication and requesting that all copies be returned from retail accounts while we work to resolve those questions.”
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Old 06-16-2019, 04:44 PM
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Surprise, surprise! Naomi Wolf has been caught out lying yet again. I'm sure in a moment there will be monkeys leaping to the defense of the indefensible and that is fine.
Has anyone been defending her? I’ve only been kinda following this story, but most of what I’ve heard has been pretty harsh on her.
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Old 06-16-2019, 05:17 PM
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Has anyone been defending her? I’ve only been kinda following this story, but most of what I’ve heard has been pretty harsh on her.
Yeah, I literally just the read the SF Chronicle review an hour ago and though it had a couple of nice things to say, overall it was not very complimentary. The little dumbass things in it( like typhus, cholera and tuberculosis being cited as mosquito-born illnesses )I think would annoy me as much as the profound research fuck-up.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 06-16-2019 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 06-16-2019, 07:56 PM
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"I don't think you're right about this," the presenter said in the clip, before detailing the term "death recorded" in Old Bailey court records in fact meant that judges had abstained from handing down a death sentence.

That's odd. I confess, I would probably have interpreted "death recorded" as "Death sentence handed down and recorded" rather than "judge didn't issue death sentence, so noted" but I also hope I would have looked into it rather than making that assumption.

It seems counterintuitive.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:38 PM
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That's odd. I confess, I would probably have interpreted "death recorded" as "Death sentence handed down and recorded" rather than "judge didn't issue death sentence, so noted" but I also hope I would have looked into it rather than making that assumption.

It seems counterintuitive.
Seems like misdirection upon the discovery of a legitimate, yet not crucial, mistake.Every writer makes mistakes hence multiple additions. (For example: Pluto turns out to be an asteroid, and Hal didn’t come alone till 2013 vis 2010,) Also there is no agreed upon definition for this death recorded phrase as defined by Richard Ward via Matthew Sweet (who, btw, used to be a Dr Who critic and has a doctorate about fiction in the 19th century). Per my last post I did my own research, and I read his book: they are counter-views of the same period and opposing social critiques. Regardless of the mistake (which is not the premise of her book per Amazon, Houghton, Verago, and Other sites) it seems pretty aggressive for him to attack like that (on live air) and go on to ensure it goes viral by tweeting his cut video to a guy who seems to be a bit on the 24th. Check out all of the tweets for (at) thymetikon he has tweeted once since and only tweeted gibberish up till the time he tweeted out that 44 minute version of a 55 minute video. (Scroll back to one of his earliest tweets August 2018, look at the chart he mapped out, very spooky). She admitted her mistake and I thought showed dignity and class despite the lack thereof on the part of Sweet. So why such a disproportionate backlash? What’s really going on here, I’ve never seen anything like it. Did she stumble upon the Queen being an Alien in the book? It’s really strange!
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Old 06-16-2019, 08:28 PM
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Naomi graduated two years after me at Yale. I consider her kinda an embarrassment to Old Eli. Even in my undergrad research papers I knew not to put shit down that I hadn’t researched.
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:05 PM
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I have only the most superficial knowledge of Naomi Wolf but I've read some of her essays before and she's been a useful advocate of progressive causes while also being deliberately controversial and, apparently, with about the same disregard for careful factual vetting as someone like Michael Moore -- who manages to get a valid story out even if he mangles or obscures the details. Or in the words of Bill Maher's coffee mug, "But I'm Not Wrong!". Even if some of the details are.

What I get from the OP (the post) is that he (the poster) apparently hates Naomi Wolf, but regardless of his personal hate, she didn't lie -- she apparently made mistakes in the book. She's not a liar here so much as she is a sloppy journalist. So in the end, it turns out that it's the OP who's actually a liar in misrepresenting the whole situation. You want liars? I give you Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, and the inimitable John Lott on gun violence statistics, just for starters. Or how about Anthony Watts on climate change, Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner on climate change -- oh, fuck it, just about any conservative asshole including the president of the USA and half of Congress on climate change. Deliberate, calculating liars -- not makers of mistakes, but LIARS -- each and every one. That's what a liar is, OP. Fuck you, you ignorant douchebag.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:45 AM
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She's not a liar here so much as she is a sloppy journalist.
In this case she is probably not a liar: I don't know enough about her other stuff to say one way or another. But that doesn't make her overall point true: in this particular outrage, it makes it false. Homosexuals were not so oppressed in 19th century England that they were still widely executed, so she was wrong about the level of oppression.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:26 AM
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In this case she is probably not a liar: I don't know enough about her other stuff to say one way or another. But that doesn't make her overall point true: in this particular outrage, it makes it false. Homosexuals were not so oppressed in 19th century England that they were still widely executed, so she was wrong about the level of oppression.
Whether she was wrong or not depends on precisely what claims one is questioning. Again, I'm no expert on the subject, I haven't read the book, and I have no particular interest in defending Wolf, but to my understanding her basic narrative is correct even if some of the specific facts were mistaken, and certainly the claim that she is an intentional "liar" seems absurd and only confirms my prior impressions of the OP as an imbecile. For example, the cited article claims that "Dr Wolf alleged she had discovered that 'several dozen' men were executed for having homosexual sex during the 19th century" and that the BBC interviewer Matthew Sweet claimed this was incorrect. No, maybe her interpretation of certain court records was incorrect, but that statement in fact is perfectly accurate according to this historical timeline. The last executions for homosexuality in England were in 1835, and by the time the death penalty for being gay was abolished in 1861, 8921 men had been prosecuted during the 19th century with 404 sentenced to death and 56 executed. Which certainly counts as "several dozen" by my math.

And the oppression continued for more than another century. Nearly 100 years later, Alan Turing, one of the world's greatest computer science pioneers and a war hero whose brilliant codebreaking skills helped save Britain from the Nazis and saved thousands of lives by shortening the war, was also persecuted in a similarly shameful way. He was given the option of being chemically castrated as an alternative to imprisonment for being a homosexual, and as a result of the subsequent depression he committed suicide in 1954. This was a travesty for which the Prime Minister issued a formal apology 55 years after Turing's death, and eventually in 2013 Queen Elizabeth herself further formalized the proceedings by granting him a Royal Pardon.

I'll never defend sloppy journalism because facts are important, but I will say this: Wolf's new book is apparently called "Outrage" and there's certainly factual stuff here to be outraged about. It's a shame if she messed up some of the details.
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Old 06-18-2019, 11:33 AM
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For example, the cited article claims that "Dr Wolf alleged she had discovered that 'several dozen' men were executed for having homosexual sex during the 19th century" and that the BBC interviewer Matthew Sweet claimed this was incorrect. No, maybe her interpretation of certain court records was incorrect, but that statement in fact is perfectly accurate according to this historical timeline. The last executions for homosexuality in England were in 1835, and by the time the death penalty for being gay was abolished in 1861, 8921 men had been prosecuted during the 19th century with 404 sentenced to death and 56 executed. Which certainly counts as "several dozen" by my math.
That's missing the whole point. No one denies that there had been executions for sodomy in the early nineteenth century. But Wolf's claim was that she had discovered several dozen executions for sodomy after 1835, thus disproving the standard view that none occurred after that date. Which, if true, would have been an extremely important discovery, worthy of all the stress she placed on it. But it turns out that what every other historian had previously thought was the case remains so. No, she wasn't lying, but she was being extremely careless.

She has also now trapped herself in a blatant contradiction. Previously she was claiming that her discovery was one of the major elements in her book's argument. However now that it's been disproved, she's been claiming that it wasn't. She really can't have it both ways.
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:41 PM
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I had never heard of Naomi Wolf, but this gives me pause...
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...manages to get a valid story out even if (s)he mangles or obscures the details. Or in the words of Bill Maher's coffee mug, "But I'm Not Wrong!". Even if some of the details are.
If she's truly like Bill Maher, that would mean she spews and repeats absolute bullshit and doubles down on idiocy when called on it, which in Bill's case is indistinguishable from lying (unless you grant a minute possibility of severe mental defect).

Last edited by Jackmannii; 06-17-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:09 PM
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I had never heard of Naomi Wolf, but this gives me pause...If she's truly like Bill Maher, that would mean she spews and repeats absolute bullshit and doubles down on idiocy when called on it, which in Bill's case is indistinguishable from lying (unless you grant a minute possibility of severe mental defect).
Too bad I never said she was "like Bill Maher", nor did I hold Bill Maher up as an icon of anything related to vaccines or GMOs. I was quoting a motto on his coffee cup, for fuck's sake, but that was apparently enough to set you off like a rabid pit bull and shove your oar in on your favorite topic to rant about.

Not to digress further on this nonsense, but while I'm not going to defend Wolf here I think Maher does deserve a defense. I strongly suspect that your entire opinion of Maher is based on highly biased crap that you read, like that stuff you just cited, without actually knowing anything at all about the man or the show. As Wikipedia notes, "[Real Time with Bill Maher] has been nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Series every year from 2005 through 2014 and Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Talk Series in 2016 & 2017". The venerable Larry King called it "one of the best shows on televison". HBO has a reputation for production excellence, and this is no exception. With very rare exceptions the show is a thoughtful and informative discussion forum that is also often very funny, and features some of the most interesting and influential people in politics and the arts in the world today. Of course you wouldn't know that since I have to assume you've never seen it, apparently finding it preferable to have your head up your ass whenever it's on.

If you actually watched the show, you'd know that the vaccine stuff is hardly ever mentioned and you'd also know that Maher has backed off considerably from his earlier views. As for the alleged dangers of GMOs, I don't recall ever hearing him say anything like that and I've been watching the show every week for years. He does occasionally have controversial guests for the one-on-one interview spot at the beginning of the show, and bringing on the anti-vaccine nut Robert F. Kennedy Jr one time a couple of years ago was in the same spirit as bringing on the all-around nutjob Rick Santorum on another occasion, but again, if you actually watch the show, you'd know that most of the time he has thoughtful and intelligent guests for this interview spot (as well as for the panel that makes up most of the show) -- for instance, a number of Obama administration cabinet secretaries have been on, who incidentally impressed the hell out of me with their intellectual depth. One time, indeed, after a bit of prodding, Obama himself agreed to come on, back while he was still president.

I should also mention that when Santorum came on and made idiotic statements basically denying climate change, which Maher was unable to factually respond to at the time because he just didn't have the facts at hand, Maher had his staff research the claims and the next week he totally decimated Santorum's claims with well-researched information. It was wonderful, and I wrote a couple of lengthy posts about that a few years ago.

I agree that Maher's anti-vax position was stupid, but it's absurd to use that single item as the basis for discrediting absolutely everything the man has ever said. And there are certainly people that just don't like Maher or his style of humor, but you're really doing yourself and Maher a disservice with your ill-informed ranting about a single issue that he barely cares about and has hardly even mentioned in recent years. May I suggest that this Friday, if you have HBO, you should pour yourself a glass of wine, take a Valium, and watch Real Time with Bill Maher for the first time.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:28 PM
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As Wikipedia notes, "[Real Time with Bill Maher] has been nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Series every year from 2005 through 2014 and Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Talk Series in 2016 & 2017".
If Emmy nominations are an indicator of quality, we have a problem.

Our President has a few nominations for his reality TV show.
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:06 AM
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As Wikipedia notes, "[Real Time with Bill Maher] has been nominated for a Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Series every year from 2005 through 2014 and Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Variety Talk Series in 2016 & 2017". The venerable Larry King called it "one of the best shows on televison".
This comes off as a weird variation on the argumentum ad populum fallacy. Argumentum ad award nomination?

Maher didn't just spew antivax nonsense one time. He's done it repeatedly (and never retracted his bullshit to my knowledge). He's gone on record as a germ theory denialist, citing the false claim that Pasteur admitted on his deathbed that he was wrong about microbes. Maher's facilited cancer quackery and helped exploit HIV patients (i.e. when he hosted Charlie Sheen's goat's-milk-prevents-AIDS doctor).

And there's his reputation for bigoted remarks, about which he seems remarkedly unapologetic.

Something to mull over as you drink from your "But I'm Not Wrong!" mug.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 06-18-2019 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 06-18-2019, 12:31 PM
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I have only the most superficial knowledge of Naomi Wolf but I've read some of her essays before and she's been a useful advocate of progressive causes while also being deliberately controversial and, apparently, with about the same disregard for careful factual vetting as someone like Michael Moore -- who manages to get a valid story out even if he mangles or obscures the details. Or in the words of Bill Maher's coffee mug, "But I'm Not Wrong!". Even if some of the details are.

What I get from the OP (the post) is that he (the poster) apparently hates Naomi Wolf, but regardless of his personal hate, she didn't lie -- she apparently made mistakes in the book. She's not a liar here so much as she is a sloppy journalist. So in the end, it turns out that it's the OP who's actually a liar in misrepresenting the whole situation. You want liars? I give you Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, and the inimitable John Lott on gun violence statistics, just for starters. Or how about Anthony Watts on climate change, Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner on climate change -- oh, fuck it, just about any conservative asshole including the president of the USA and half of Congress on climate change. Deliberate, calculating liars -- not makers of mistakes, but LIARS -- each and every one. That's what a liar is, OP. Fuck you, you ignorant douchebag.
And not a Historian. I first heard about this in reference to "this is why you need Historians, people!" Cokie Roberts was also called out in the article for a similar mistake where as a non-historian, she assumed something that was not intuitive, that a historian who studied the era in question would have known was wrong.

In a rush to keep cost down, we aren't keeping fact checkers around - and when you publish books by journalists and writers who are not experts in the history they are covering, you need fact checkers. You need a read through of the early thesis by someone with subject matter expertise - because "death recorded" is not used intuitively by 21st century standards in these documents.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:03 AM
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:02 AM
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I'd never heard of Naomi Wolf before a week or so ago. She sounds like a bozo. I hereby refudiate Naomi Wolf's book, whatever it was called.

I hope that some day, we on the left will have intellectuals of the caliber of Dinesh D'Souza, Jim Hoft, and Diamond & Silk.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:01 AM
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Wolf is not so much a liar as simply not really a researcher or historian. She stampedes towards her conclusions without bothering to do real research, like a person repeating Internet memes. This is, remember, the same person who famously claimed that tens of thousands of young women were dropping dead every year from anorexia and the reason you didn't hear about it is that all the rest of them were too hungry to say anything. I think she sort of beleives that she's saying and certainly in this one instance she was CLEARLY NOT LYING. I don't know how the OP could possibly have listened to the interview and come to such a weird conclusion. She was unquestionably horribly surprised she had gotten it wrong. "Mistaken" is not "lying."

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Whether she was wrong or not depends on precisely what claims one is questioning. Again, I'm no expert on the subject, I haven't read the book, and I have no particular interest in defending Wolf, but to my understanding her basic narrative is correct even if some of the specific facts were mistaken...
She wasn't, no. The idea that men continued to be executed for sodomy in the UK is a critical part of the book, not a trivial side issue. The fact it was totally wrong is a serious flaw.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:14 AM
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Wolf is not so much a liar as simply not really a researcher or historian. She stampedes towards her conclusions without bothering to do real research, like a person repeating Internet memes. This is, remember, the same person who famously claimed that tens of thousands of young women were dropping dead every year from anorexia and the reason you didn't hear about it is that all the rest of them were too hungry to say anything.
I am having trouble distinguishing this from lying.
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:25 PM
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I am having trouble distinguishing this from lying.
You don't know the difference between being a credulous doofus and lying?

I am one hundred percent convinced Wolf really thought "Death recorded" meant "executed." I find that appallingly stupid; the term "Death recorded" is so weird, used in no other context and so strange-sounding, that even I would think "man, I should probably independently figure out what that means." But it is plainly obvious Wolf really, honestly thought it meant executed. That is not "lying."
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Old 06-17-2019, 12:44 PM
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You don't know the difference between being a credulous doofus and lying?

I am one hundred percent convinced Wolf really thought "Death recorded" meant "executed." I find that appallingly stupid; the term "Death recorded" is so weird, used in no other context and so strange-sounding, that even I would think "man, I should probably independently figure out what that means." But it is plainly obvious Wolf really, honestly thought it meant executed. That is not "lying."
Yep, she's a lousy historian. This isn't lying, it's incompetence.
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:08 PM
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Yep, she's a lousy historian. This isn't lying, it's incompetence.
I guess I underestimated the potential for mental defect, seeing the "unhinged public pronouncements" detailed in the following review.

(Wolf's) first, career-making book, “The Beauty Myth,” is well-known for exaggerating the number of women who died of anorexia (Wolf stated that anorexia kills 150,000 women annually; the actual figure at the time, in the mid-1990s, was said to be closer to 50 or 60). One academic paper found that fully 18 of the 23 statistics about anorexia in the book were inaccurate and coined a term — “WOLF” (Wolf’s Overdo and Lie Factor) — to determine the degree to which Wolf was wrong...

Reviews of her book on fascism argued, as one put it, that she “consistently mutilated the truth with selective and ultimately deceptive use of her sources.” And “Vagina” so profoundly misrepresented the working of the brain, I’m not sure science writers have recovered...

This is to say nothing of Wolf’s unhinged public pronouncements. She has alleged the American military is importing Ebola from Africa with an intention of spreading it at home, that Edward Snowden might be a government plant and that she has seen the figure of Jesus while she was (inexplicably) in the form of a 13-year-old boy. She appeared on Alex Jones’s show, and accused the government of intercepting and reading her daughter’s mail."


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/b...aomi-wolf.html
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Old 06-17-2019, 02:50 PM
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I am one hundred percent convinced Wolf really thought "Death recorded" meant "executed." I find that appallingly stupid; the term "Death recorded" is so weird, used in no other context and so strange-sounding, that even I would think "man, I should probably independently figure out what that means." But it is plainly obvious Wolf really, honestly thought it meant executed. That is not "lying."
I agree. As to the sloppiness of her research and journalism, she could have just Googled it and found it in Wikipedia. This took me literally about two seconds to find -- and it's a truly strange legal oddity:
In British courts, beginning in 1823, a sentence of death recorded meant that the judge was abstaining from voicing a sentence of capital punishment in cases where the judge foresaw that a royal pardon would be forthcoming if a proper death sentence were to be issued. It was, in other words, a death sentence in name only, with no actual effect in law.

Royal pardons for capital punishment had become routine at the time for most common crimes. Under the Judgment of Death Act 1823, a "death recorded" sentence allowed the judge to meet common law sentencing precedent while avoiding mocking by the sentenced or the public who realised an actual death penalty sentence was likely to be overridden ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_recorded
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:48 PM
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Looks to me like that Wiki page was created in the wake of Wolf’s whoopsie.

Last edited by The Other Waldo Pepper; 06-17-2019 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:14 AM
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Britain’s sexually segregated institutions, particularly the British Navy and the entire boys’ public school system, were notorious hothouses of buggery. Generations of upper-class twits enjoyed their first sexual experiences at school, and later had to be cajoled into viewing women as the “correct” semen depository of the mature upper-class twit. Got to make the heir and the spare, you know.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:51 PM
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Good catch: I had assumed that only the last paragraph had been new but the history shows that the article is less than 2 months old.

Last edited by Ludovic; 06-17-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 10:27 PM
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Old 06-18-2019, 08:38 AM
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At first I was surprised, vaguely remembering that Naomi Wolf was well-regarded for her rigorous analysis and insight. Then I realized that I was confusing her with Naomi Klein.

On further consideration I remember Wolf from The Beauty Myth, but that's probably the last I'd given her any thought.
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Old 06-18-2019, 10:27 AM
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I am having trouble distinguishing this from lying.
Then buy a dictionary.
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  #34  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:10 AM
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Then buy a dictionary.
Bite me.


She said stuff that was untrue. This is undisputed. Several have said (paraphrasing) that isn't lying because she didn't know it was untrue. That makes her incompetent, not dishonest.

But she is a college educated, published author and journalist. She would have known it was untrue if she had done the basic research that posters here have done. The basic stuff that she was supposed to do as part of her job.

Lets look again at the NY Times quote that Jackmanni posted earlier:
Quote:
(Wolf's) first, career-making book, “The Beauty Myth,” is well-known for exaggerating the number of women who died of anorexia (Wolf stated that anorexia kills 150,000 women annually; the actual figure at the time, in the mid-1990s, was said to be closer to 50 or 60). One academic paper found that fully 18 of the 23 statistics about anorexia in the book were inaccurate and coined a term — “WOLF” (Wolf’s Overdo and Lie Factor) — to determine the degree to which Wolf was wrong...

Reviews of her book on fascism argued, as one put it, that she “consistently mutilated the truth with selective and ultimately deceptive use of her sources.” And “Vagina” so profoundly misrepresented the working of the brain, I’m not sure science writers have recovered..
She didn't just exaggerate a number of victims. she exponentially exaggerated a number of victims. The book didn't contain a few stats that were inaccurate. The majority of the stats she used were inaccurate.

Now, I sincerely ask....how exactly does this differ from lying?
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  #35  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:38 PM
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Now, I sincerely ask....how exactly does this differ from lying?
I wonder what this guy has to say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
She said stuff that was untrue. This is undisputed. Several have said (paraphrasing) that isn't lying because she didn't know it was untrue. That makes her incompetent, not dishonest.
Everything you argued was about incompetence. Not willfully covering up the truth. And that is how it is distinguishable from a lie--which is a willful attempt to deceive.
  #36  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:53 PM
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I wonder what this guy has to say?



Everything you argued was about incompetence. Not willfully covering up the truth. And that is how it is distinguishable from a lie--which is a willful attempt to deceive.
Maybe he needs to bite himself.
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  #37  
Old 06-25-2019, 07:03 AM
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Speaking of not doing research...


The Beauty Myth Stat was actually quoted from a source she used.

Matthew Sweet, the bbc guy, actually said (twice) that he got the death recorded phrase (not a legal term) from the obo website, yet there is no definition there. He later said Thomas Silver (the person referenced as the 14 year old) raped a 6 year old. However, there is no mention of this rape anywhere in the obo. He backpeddled in a later tweet and said he got the def from the digitalpanopticon, the site linked to the obo without admitting he erred on air. Interestingly, he went on in the interview to lecture her that the obo was not a good resource, as it only contained names, dates and verdicts...yet this is counter to the definition given on the obo itself as being the most complete and largest most detailed dB of archives ... ever. Almost like he had never actually been to the site prior to the interview and was reading a script. On a later tweet he was hailing the obo as “excellent.” So I tweeted him and asked why he changed his mind a day later and he muted me. I asked the obo (via twitter) where I could find this definition and they told me clearly that there was no definition of death recorded and never was. Then they blocked me!?

So then I went to the digital Panopticon website and found a definition, written by Richard Ward. Big problem here right away: he’s never once used nor mentioned “death recorded” in his entire academic career! I based this on a Boolean enhanced google search but, I also downloaded all of his publicly available research on the UK justice system, and executions, including two large books from Google Play...indeed, no death recorded. So I went to Wikipedia on the 23 of May, no death recorded. Went again on the 24th, and to my surprise...it was there. Went to page history on death recorded, it had just been put up on the 24th of May (interview was the 21st). Strangely it was quoting Richard Ward’s definition but mainly cited the interview as references?? The next day someone added a reference to an old fairy tale and fable dictionary and a reference to a 1906 dictionary. Problem here is the dictionary did have “death recorded” but made no mention of a pardon or anything remotely close to a pardon. The dictionary itself is not even an official legal or professional dictionary.

So I went back to the digital Panopticon and found the sources for the page on “sentencing”. Not one of those books had “death recorded.”

So then I saw people saying she should have gone to the digital Panopticon, but that’s another problem: it was added to the obo as a link in August of 2018. So unless she was still researching after 2018, which based on publication schedules I highly doubt, then she would not have been able to. It also does not appear in any of the dictionaries of 1798, 1811, or 1835 (is link it but you can do your own research) hint: TE Tomlins. Now there is an entry for “sentence of death”, and strangely this is the definition that seems closest to the post 21May now popular definition being thrown about by twitteristotians, but there is nary a mention of pardon or that they were not eventually executed...more like a delay, or a commutation of the sentence to transportation or hard labor.

But that’s all in the weeds...I read the book and if you live in the US, you did not (it was published in the UK, not in the US). The premise of the book has very little to do with executions, it’s about the increased criminalization of homosexuality (and other personal/private lifestyle preferences), and about censorship. (It says it right there on the cover).

But here is the most interesting thing. Matthew Sweet wrote a book called “Inventing the Victorians.” I’m not a historian (I’m actually a coder and an online librarian), but I know enough about that period (being touted as the UK’s Victorious Age in most school learning) and his book would be undermined by her book. According to Sweet, all that bad stuff we hear about The Victorian Age was invented...things were great! There was no vice, no graft, no suffering...apparently history was unfair to the Victorians and we should “love them.” Most disturbing about this book is a chapter titled “Presumed Innocent” in which he talks about the acceptability at that time for adult men to “intimately court” young women down to the age of 10!

So again, hate Wolf, hail Sweet, or question anyone’s findings...but do some research and thinking on your own so we can have an informed discussion or debate. I only read Outrages as she was being praised here up until May 19, by the same papers that then attacked her and who also never really looked beyond Sweet’s proclamations.

Here are some points to ponder as I close:

-BBC is state controlled here. Every tv buyer must purchase a bbc license, meaning we are forced to have it on our tells.

-Matthew Sweet has a DPhil (a doctorate) in the impact of fiction on 19th century England, it’s focus is entirely on Wilkie Collins, a prominent fiction author at the time...not quite “historian” material. (His prior job was as a “Dr Who” critic and self proclaimed film historian.

-Wolf has a DPhil in literature and her book was fact checked, among many others, by Baroness Helena Kennedy of Shaw (she’s a member or former member of the House of Lords) and a prominent lawyer/legal scholar and former Ward (dean) of Manchester at Oxford. Another is Sir STEPHEN Sedley, a former highest court in England Chief Magistrate. But we are taking the Dr Who expert’s word as historical fact?

-The digital Panopticon is funded by private investors, one of which is JISc, who, alongside Houghton Mifflin & Pearson, we’re named as key elements by your President Obama for new education initiatives in 2012. Essentially these companies are writing all curriculum for the US and UK public education systems online.

-Matthew Sweet posted a 44 minute version of the interview, but the interview I heard was 55 minutes in total. Almost 5 minutes of commentary during the Wolf segment is missing...and it may be my imagination, but her voice sounds lower and slower on Sweet’s posted version (I noticed the producer of his show has an expertise in “final cut” and Adobe Premier Pro” according to linked in).

-The Wikipedia page for death recorded was added on May 24 by Xavierltzm, a Wikipedia editor that has been flagged numerous times on Wikipedia for manipulating definitions to fit various political leanings (he’s softened criticism of the bbc on multiple occasions). (Just go to the “page history” on wiki and follow the “breadcrumbs”. He also, more recently, has been making changes and trying to undo positive mentions on the Naomi Wolf wiki page...again, it’s all in the page histories.

Finally, and the big question, why won’t her USA publisher specify which “additional questions” delayed the book’s release? They were asked in a June 21 article by the Guardian this specific question and declined to comment. They also delayed the book two days after it made the American social celebrity Oprah Winfrey’s “Best Books of Summer list, a list on which it remains...a publisher delaying at a point like this is unprecedented!

As my heroes of detective novels would say: there’s something amidst here!






Quote:
Originally Posted by Typo Negative View Post
Bite me.


She said stuff that was untrue. This is undisputed. Several have said (paraphrasing) that isn't lying because she didn't know it was untrue. That makes her incompetent, not dishonest.

But she is a college educated, published author and journalist. She would have known it was untrue if she had done the basic research that posters here have done. The basic stuff that she was supposed to do as part of her job.

Lets look again at the NY Times quote that Jackmanni posted earlier:


She didn't just exaggerate a number of victims. she exponentially exaggerated a number of victims. The book didn't contain a few stats that were inaccurate. The majority of the stats she used were inaccurate.

Now, I sincerely ask....how exactly does this differ from lying?
  #38  
Old 06-25-2019, 11:38 AM
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Okay then.
  #39  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:48 PM
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I’m pretty sure her book is not based on “Death Recorded” as a term or p


Liar, ignorant b&tch, disingenuous? Wow...who hurt you? Your unbridled hatred of this person just made me order three of her books...cause now I’m curious and I wonder where such aggression can stem from. So, um, thank you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke N. Destroi View Post
Surprise, surprise! Naomi Wolf has been caught out lying yet again. I'm sure in a moment there will be monkeys leaping to the defense of the indefensible and that is fine.

Until then, the non-simian among you can enjoy reading this from the BBC (with a link to her side-splitting twitter defense) and listening to this this the interview during which she momentarily realized that she was a lying, disingenuous, ignorant bitch and then scuttled away from it. The good part starts at about the 18 minute mark.

Didn't understand a term upon which she based a major argument, championned the super sympathetic case of a 14 year old who was executed (he wasn't) for being gay (or for raping a 6 year old boy, easy to confuse since Naomi seems to think they are equivalent.)

At least this is the first... second.... third(?) time she's been caught out spewing demonstrable horseshit under the auspice of authority in order to promote her agenda and line her pockets.

As for the book, she seems to have put as much effort into her research as she did her thinking.
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