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  #151  
Old 07-13-2019, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Why isn't referring to a person's belief in a deity as "believing in a sky fairy" not similarly determined to be for the sole purpose of riling someone up? That insult would apply to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
It could be, depending on the context. wolfpup in the 2nd paragraph of post #149 gives a potential example of this.

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Implicit in your response is that once someone has sufficiently participated in a discussion about transgender issues, then he or she should absolutely know (or accurately stated, agree with the board position) that the correct side is right and therefore stop disagreeing or being snarky. I wholeheartedly disagree with that position as it stifles debate, but if we are going to outlaw snark, then that should apply to religion or really all topics across the board.
This is not implicit in my response in the slightest. Let be be explicit - there is no requirement to agree with the majority opinion, the minority opinion, or any opinion. Everyone is always welcome to disagree with just about anything, including moderation in the appropriate fourm.


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It's just that the board has selected a few undefined topics (generally women's issues, gay and trans issues and the like) to be "special" topics where politeness and respect are required but only if you are on the wrong side of the issue. If you are on the right side of the issue, you can insult, call your opponents bigots and phobes and be as snarky as you want. That is inconsistent with a board that wants open debate, again, unless snark is prohibited across the board on each side.
This is completely wrong as well.

Last edited by Bone; 07-13-2019 at 05:41 PM.
  #152  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bone View Post
This is not implicit in my response in the slightest. Let be be explicit - there is no requirement to agree with the majority opinion, the minority opinion, or any opinion. Everyone is always welcome to disagree with just about anything, including moderation in the appropriate fourm.
To put a finer point on it: all opinions are welcome, as long as they're genuine and presented in a neutral manner.
  #153  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
... It's just that the board has selected a few undefined topics (generally women's issues, gay and trans issues and the like) to be "special" topics where politeness and respect are required but only if you are on the wrong side of the issue. If you are on the right side of the issue, you can insult, call your opponents bigots and phobes and be as snarky as you want. That is inconsistent with a board that wants open debate, again, unless snark is prohibited across the board on each side.
My emphasis; the implied criticism that there are certain topics that receive special scrutiny over jerkish behavior, might be missing a distinction between disparaging remarks that punch down, and disparaging remarks that punch up.

Making a critical or hostile remark about "women's issues, gay and trans issues" (to quote you) is punching down, because these are demographic groups that have less status, power, and influence in most societies. Making a critical or hostile remark about, say, men's rights groups, is punching up---because overwhelmingly these groups are made up of people at the top of the demographic status-hierarchy.

I'm not suggesting that this is a distinction consciously employed by moderators. I doubt that it is.

But it's possible that the basic underlying idea contributes to the decision on whether or not someone is posting in a jerkish way. Punching down is jerkish. Punching up: less so.
  #154  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:29 PM
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Okay, I took your assurances to heart and started a thread in GD that I would have otherwise had great trepidation to wade into.
  #155  
Old 07-13-2019, 06:55 PM
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I suspect the responses there will fulfill your predictions but not for the reasons you believe.
  #156  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
I suspect the responses there will fulfill your predictions but not for the reasons you believe.

ORLY? What do you believe are the reasons I believe, and what do you believe the real reasons will be?
  #157  
Old 07-13-2019, 07:30 PM
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ORLY? What do you believe are the reasons I believe, and what do you believe the real reasons will be?
ATMB is for discussion about the board. This thread is about trends in moderation. Please keep to that topic, and not digress into personal treatises about what you think others believe. ATMB is not the appropriate place for that discussion.
  #158  
Old 07-13-2019, 11:38 PM
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Wasn’t SD talking about how she expects the thread to be moderated? That is how I interpreted it, which means that my response was also about expectations of moderation.
  #159  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
It's just that the board has selected a few undefined topics (generally women's issues, gay and trans issues and the like) to be "special" topics where politeness and respect are required but only if you are on the wrong side of the issue. If you are on the right side of the issue, you can insult, call your opponents bigots and phobes and be as snarky as you want. That is inconsistent with a board that wants open debate, again, unless snark is prohibited across the board on each side.
I will agree that the moderation has taken a higher degree in interest in such topics, demanding posters be more respectful in those discussions. I will not, however, agree with the idea that respect is only required if you are the right side. It's actually a chore to call out bigotry without getting in trouble for it, something that a lot of us don't like. Even the post/poster distinction isn't absolute anymore, as sometimes attacking the post may be determined as attacking the poster, if the attack is strong enough. We have to be calm about it.
  #160  
Old 07-14-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
No, he's living on a farm downstate where he can play with the other editors and chase squirrels.
Uh.. isn't it usually UPstate? What are you trying to say? Stop beating around the bush... give it to me straight... is... is Zotti in HELL?
  #161  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I will agree that the moderation has taken a higher degree in interest in such topics, demanding posters be more respectful in those discussions. I will not, however, agree with the idea that respect is only required if you are the right side. It's actually a chore to call out bigotry without getting in trouble for it, something that a lot of us don't like. Even the post/poster distinction isn't absolute anymore, as sometimes attacking the post may be determined as attacking the poster, if the attack is strong enough. We have to be calm about it.

Perhaps without realizing it, you are basically admitting that you are a restive mob of exuberant true believers who have trouble holding back from an all out explosion of righteous fury against the benighted, unenlightened scum you are forced to tolerate.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-14-2019 at 07:02 AM.
  #162  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Perhaps without realizing it, you are basically admitting that you are a restive mob of exuberant true believers who have trouble holding back from an all out explosion of righteous fury against the benighted, unenlightened scum you are forced to tolerate.
or PERHAPS he's admitting that he's secretly a zebra cavorting on the veldt!

"Perhaps" is doing all the work in that sentence, Slacker.
  #163  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:31 AM
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The “perhaps” only applies to whether s/he realizes it.
  #164  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
The “perhaps” only applies to whether s/he realizes it.
Shame--it was the only thing that saved the sentence from straight-up absurdity.
  #165  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:36 AM
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I am rather proud of the sentence, personally.
  #166  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I am rather proud of the sentence, personally.
Proverbs 16:18
  #167  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
Proverbs 16:18
Personally, in situations like this, I use:

Dalmations 3: 12-27


I've read Lamb way too many times

Last edited by kopek; 07-14-2019 at 09:15 AM.
  #168  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Okay, I took your assurances to heart and started a thread in GD that I would have otherwise had great trepidation to wade into.
Interesting. Given these assurances you started a thread that:

1) Had a title and thesis that fundamentally misrepresented your cite; and
2) Poisoned the well by asking whether your (incorrect) thesis was the fault of political correctness, or the racism of the media; and
3) Based on these two points, comes across as trying to tweak liberals.

When you're called on these points, you respond by veering off into an irrelevant side issue (Didja know that black people aren't disproportionately killed by police?), which would be relevant as another thread but has as its main connection to this thread that it reads like "tweak the liberals."

The first two points should be sufficient to get the thread closed, in my opinion. I know you think that makes me, what, a crowing Maoist full of righteous fury or some such blather; but rather, it makes me someone not wanting the board to be cluttered up by disingenuous "pwning the libs" posts.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-14-2019 at 09:46 AM.
  #169  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:17 AM
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New band name: Crowing Maoists.
  #170  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:20 AM
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What you call “poisoning the well” is a point made by a black Muslim anti-gang activist/counselor in the NYT article itself. So I hope it’s just that you didn’t read it. Maybe you should.

ETA: “Pwning the libs” but I’m constantly stanning for Kamala Harris in Elections. Riiiight.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-14-2019 at 10:24 AM.
  #171  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
What you call “poisoning the well” is a point made by a black Muslim anti-gang activist/counselor in the NYT article itself. So I hope it’s just that you didn’t read it. Maybe you should.
Since you and that counselor are talking about different things, given your initial misrepresentation of the link, this is a continued misrepresentation.
  #172  
Old 07-14-2019, 01:02 PM
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"Some of the best friends I got is coloured.”
  #173  
Old 07-14-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Blank Slate View Post
Moderating

If this is intended to refer to the OP, keep it out of ATMB.

To others:

Although the OP brought it up, there is no reason to further debate the new GD thread here, since its premise is being discussed both in both GD and the Pit. Keep debates out of ATMB.

Colibri
  #174  
Old 07-14-2019, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Moderating

If this is intended to refer to the OP, keep it out of ATMB.

To others:

Although the OP brought it up, there is no reason to further debate the new GD thread here, since its premise is being discussed both in both GD and the Pit. Keep debates out of ATMB.

Colibri
I get what you're saying, and so maybe the question should be more general.

HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, if a person posts a thread in GD that consists of three sentences and a title, and the title asks a misleading question, and the first sentence misrepresents its cite, and the final sentence poisons the well, and the only other sentence expresses surprise -- HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, is that appropriate GD material?

I don't want to debate any of those points here, because I think they're pretty indisputable. My question is limited to what should happen in such a case.
  #175  
Old 07-14-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
My question is limited to what should happen in such a case.
Without judging the particular thread, that's up to the GD mods and the posters who are responding to it. It seems to me that what should happen is happening: other posters are questioning the premise and the accuracy of the OP.
  #176  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Moderating

If this is intended to refer to the OP, keep it out of ATMB.

To others:

Although the OP brought it up, there is no reason to further debate the new GD thread here, since its premise is being discussed both in both GD and the Pit. Keep debates out of ATMB.

Colibri
The pit thread is not about SlackerInc's Great Debates thread. I can see where the confusion arises however.
  #177  
Old 07-14-2019, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Emiliana View Post
The pit thread is not about SlackerInc's Great Debates thread. I can see where the confusion arises however.
Moderator Note

Exactly why it shouldn't have been linked to here. But you know that, since you mentioned Slacker's GD thread in the Pit thread. So knock it off or you'll receive a warning.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-14-2019 at 02:23 PM.
  #178  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
Moderating

If this is intended to refer to the OP, keep it out of ATMB.
Are you meaning Original Poster, or Original Post, here? Because it reads like it's referring to Slacker's own raising of his "stanning" of a PoC politician. So surely this moderation should go to that post, and not just the response to it?
  #179  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:02 PM
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Also, quick side question - have the ATMB mods been changed and the forum description not updated? Because Colibri seems to think there's a clear line about who can and can't mod in GD, but everymod seems to throw their oar in in this forum.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-14-2019 at 03:03 PM.
  #180  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Are you meaning Original Poster, or Original Post, here? Because it reads like it's referring to Slacker's own raising of his "stanning" of a PoC politician. So surely this moderation should go to that post, and not just the response to it?
The link to the Pit thread was apparently intended to be insulting to Slacker. That is what I was referring to. And if you have issues with the GD thread, discuss them there, not here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
Also, quick side question - have the ATMB mods been changed and the forum description not updated? Because Colibri seems to think there's a clear line about who can and can't mod in GD, but everymod seems to throw their oar in in this forum.
Since this forum is about board issues in general, all mods may comment on such issues in this forum. But I'm sure you know that.
  #181  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
And if you have issues with the GD thread, discuss them there, not here.
No, I had issues with the modding in this thread.
Quote:
Since this forum is about board issues in general, all mods may comment on such issues in this forum. But I'm sure you know that.
Commenting =/= moderating, which is what you've also been doing here, but not in GD.

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-14-2019 at 03:27 PM.
  #182  
Old 07-14-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Okay, I took your assurances to heart and started a thread in GD that I would have otherwise had great trepidation to wade into.
Since the OP says his concerns in starting this thread have been addressed, and this is drifting into personal attacks and discussion of debates ongoing in other threads, I'm going to close it. If you want to debate take it to GD. If you want to insult SlackerInc take it to the Pit.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-14-2019 at 03:32 PM.
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