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  #351  
Old 12-29-2014, 04:37 PM
Labrador Deceiver is offline
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Originally Posted by brickbacon View Post
Where had you linked to that post in this thread? You said you already linked to several people before. What post did you link to that cite?
I thought I linked to it earlier. If I didn't, I just posted it. Why are you complaining?


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More importantly, few of these people comment at all on the job CG did, and half of them are idiots.
That leaves several credible defense attorneys who think she did a bad job.



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So the opinions of two people mean she did a terrible job?
It's further evidence that she did a bad job.

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First, Rabia is clearly biased and not really reliable.
She's reliable, and only biased in Adnan's favor, not against CG.

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Second, the juror's opinion could partly be the result of the evidence being what it is, not bad counsel.
Nope. They specifically spoke to Her ability to lay out a clear strategy.

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Adnan's legal team has already been ruled against on some of the counts of ineffective counsel, so not everyone thinks she did a demonstrably terrible job.
That's not true. They ruled on very specific points, not the quality of her overall defense.





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And you would be wrong.
No I woukdnt. The quotes I've heard from Adnan sound like a person who does not think she did a pretty good job.

[quotes]If multiple people come to the opposite conclusion you do, maybe you should reevaluate. [/quotes]

Right. Which is why I've shown you multiple people, somebody whom are criminal defense attorneys, who think CG did a bad job with this case.



Great, please cite that evidence and the evidence you have that it was a misstep rather than a strategy, or that if it was strategy, please state why you think the strategy was bad?



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Nonsense. He is appealing because of ineffective counsel. He is essentially accusing her of incompetence even if you want to argue it is a legal ruse. the idea he wouldn't come out a say that if he believed it to be true is without basis.
Nope. You let your attorneys hammer away at the technicalities, while you refrain from badmouthing her overall performance.



[quote]Wrong. The podcast omits some things and introduces others that didn't exist at the time or weren't allowed into trial. Examples include the nurse's testimony and summer's testimony. I have no idea why you think a 10 hour or so podcast could introduce every piece of detail and evidence in a 2-month trial is beyond me. [/quotes]

I said major pieces of evidence. Neither of the two examples you gave would turn the case either way.



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Please don't tell me where I can post.
Cite that I did?



[quote]And you are not your logical reasoning skills. [/wuote]

Yes, I am. That is a part of me, personally, as opposed to the words I am saying.



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Because you keep questioning semantics like a petulant child
Another personal attack. You're on a roll.

Last edited by Labrador Deceiver; 12-29-2014 at 04:38 PM.
  #352  
Old 12-29-2014, 04:42 PM
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Can you guys just argue without cutting and pasting each point like this? (See current ATMB thread about why this is annoying).
  #353  
Old 12-29-2014, 04:45 PM
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Can you guys just argue without cutting and pasting each point like this? (See current ATMB thread about why this is annoying).
Sure, but it's easier to address individual points that way. At least, it was before I started posting from my phone and screwed up the tags.
  #354  
Old 12-29-2014, 05:25 PM
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I think you could both save yourselves a lot of time and the rest of us a lot of scrolling if you'd just take turns writing "Nuh-uh!" and "Yuh-huh!"
  #355  
Old 12-29-2014, 05:27 PM
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Not to distract from the ongoing discussion, but Jay was interviewed (not by Serial) and gave another account of the day's events.

Last edited by panamajack; 12-29-2014 at 05:27 PM.
  #356  
Old 12-29-2014, 06:38 PM
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I think you could both save yourselves a lot of time and the rest of us a lot of scrolling if you'd just take turns writing "Nuh-uh!" and "Yuh-huh!"
Fair enough. He's not worth wasting my time on.

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Originally Posted by panamajack View Post
Not to distract from the ongoing discussion, but Jay was interviewed (not by Serial) and gave another account of the day's events.
I linked to that earlier.
  #357  
Old 12-29-2014, 06:48 PM
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You did indeed. Sorry I missed it.

Anyway, I think even if you don't trust everything Jay says (personally I find the reasons for his lies to the police at least sensible), one thing to be drawn from it is that Jay doesn't seem too convinced that it was really premeditated at all.

The possibility is then that Adnan did call him to come pick him up in the 2:[39?] call, but it was before Hae-Min was killed.

Last edited by panamajack; 12-29-2014 at 06:48 PM.
  #358  
Old 12-29-2014, 06:53 PM
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Fair enough. He's not worth wasting my time on.
Easily the gretest punchline I've seen after a 5-day setup.
  #359  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:07 PM
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Easily the gretest punchline I've seen after a 5-day setup.
Last word.
  #360  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by panamajack View Post
You did indeed. Sorry I missed it.

Anyway, I think even if you don't trust everything Jay says (personally I find the reasons for his lies to the police at least sensible), one thing to be drawn from it is that Jay doesn't seem too convinced that it was really premeditated at all.

The possibility is then that Adnan did call him to come pick him up in the 2:[39?] call, but it was before Hae-Min was killed.
Yes, but the whole thing is kinda perplexing given he is telling yet another story. He answers a few questions, then creates a few more. What is his deal exactly?
  #361  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:30 PM
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The possibility is then that Adnan did call him to come pick him up in the 2:[39?] call, but it was before Hae-Min was killed.
Then what prevented her from picking up her cousin after school?
  #362  
Old 12-29-2014, 07:46 PM
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Doubtful. Why wouldn't Adnan actually tell someone, if that's what happened?
2 reasons. First, he'd have to admit that he was involved in a drug deal, which carries risks (possible retaliation by criminal elements, severe shaming within his community). Secondly, if Hae was abducted while Adnan was distracted, he might have honestly believed she just left him and disappeared for her own reasons.

(refresher - this is regarding my theory that Hae witnessed Adnan taking part in a drug transaction coordinated by Jay).
  #363  
Old 12-29-2014, 08:06 PM
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Interesting bit from the new Jay interview... given the enormous risks of getting nailed for drug offenses, this would present a very good reason for both Jay & Adnan to continue stonewalling. Coming clean cannot help Hae now, and could only screw up their lives even worse.

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It wasn’t just like I was selling a nickel bag here and there. At the time, this was Maryland in the ’90s, the drug laws were extremely serious. I saw the ATF and DEA take down guys in my neighborhood for selling much less than I was at the time. And they were getting sentenced to three and five years. I also ran the operation out of my grandmother’s house and that also put my family at risk. I had a lot more on the line than just a few bags of weed.

The other thing to understand is something about the culture of Baltimore—this is where the ‘Stop Snitching’ video comes from. This is where it was produced. It went national, but it was produced in Baltimore. This is where people would have their house firebombed and still tell the police they knew nothing about it rather than to try to make some sense of what’s going on. And that’s not necessarily me—but that is my family, that is my uncles and cousins. It’s where I’m from.
  #364  
Old 12-29-2014, 08:25 PM
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2 reasons. First, he'd have to admit that he was involved in a drug deal, which carries risks (possible retaliation by criminal elements, severe shaming within his community). Secondly, if Hae was abducted while Adnan was distracted, he might have honestly believed she just left him and disappeared for her own reasons.

(refresher - this is regarding my theory that Hae witnessed Adnan taking part in a drug transaction coordinated by Jay).
To your first point, most people would readily confess to selling drugs if it absolves them of a murder charge.

To your second, why would that prevent him from saying anything once he found out Hae was murdered?
  #365  
Old 12-29-2014, 09:18 PM
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Not to distract from the ongoing discussion, but Jay was interviewed (not by Serial) and gave another account of the day's events.
Oh my.

So, let's see, we have...

Yet another trunk pop location. A new burial time. Actually, a whole new timeline. New version of the "come get me call" and what was said.

And more. Fifteen years later, and Jay is still at it.

I have a headache now.
  #366  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:51 AM
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Then what prevented her from picking up her cousin after school?
I had thought there was question as to whether she could even have left the school by that time, according to some descriptions. If she would necessarily have been gone by then, then that wouldn't fit. (Her pick-up time was after 3:00, so I think it's still possible she would have been hanging around, possibly allowing Adnan to talk to her/get in her car later).
  #367  
Old 12-30-2014, 03:13 AM
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I think this is a very relevant story. I don't have a big problem believing it was a coincidence. There are so many ways coincidences can happen, so one or more of them are bound to happen.
Actually, I just figured out what happened. The drunk guy probably damaged the window, and that's why it shattered so easily when my neighbor opened the door just a bit later.

Mystery solved, coincidence explained. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
  #368  
Old 12-30-2014, 04:43 AM
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Actually, I just figured out what happened. The drunk guy probably damaged the window, and that's why it shattered so easily when my neighbor opened the door just a bit later.

Mystery solved, coincidence explained. Nothing to see here. Carry on.
Isn't that also unlikely? How big are the chances that you damage the window to the exact degree that it doesn't break, but it breaks very easily afterwards? I'm not sure I buy this "drunk guy and neighbour were in on it together" theory.
  #369  
Old 12-30-2014, 05:00 AM
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So what do people think of the new Jay interview?

Over on Reddit everyone thinks it puts Jay in a worse light. But to me his new story makes sense.

Let's look at the two possible Jay's, one who lives in the world where Adnan killed Hae (Jay #1), and one who lives in the world where Adnan did not kill Hae (Jay #2).

Jay #1.
For this Jay, the new version is basically the real one, with perhaps some smaller things he doesn't remember correctly. This Jay lied repeatedly in different ways, including under oath, when he was 18. Now he is grown up, and he hears that people are questioning his story, which makes sense to him, since he knows it's not fully true. Therefore he decided to tell the full truth, as well as he recalls it. The reason that he lied to the police and such is basically the one he states in the interview, that he didn't want to cooperate with the police, and wanted to protect people. This mindset seems likely to me for a teenager living in Baltimore in the 90s.

People on Reddit think that this interview makes him less trustworthy because there are now 7 different versions. But as I see it, the number of versions has been reduced from 6 to 2. One where he didn't want to tell the police the truth, and they questioned him until they settled on the version that sounded good enough (although it actually wasn't, eg the impossible 2:36 pick up.), and one where he tells the truth years later.


Jay #2.

I have a really difficult time seeing why this Jay would give this interview and tell this story. Why would he make up a new story, with new potential problems? It's clear that he didn't even bother to listen to the podcast and make up a story that fitted the facts as best he could.

I guess in this scenario Jay is a pathological liar, that thinks he can get away with whatever lie he makes up.

Additionally I don't see any obvious issues with his new story. 3:15 is the come get me call. A minor thing is that Adnan didn't call Jay's house from his phone according to the logs, but it could easily be that he just comes to pick him up without calling, and Jay misremembered that detail.
  #370  
Old 12-30-2014, 07:08 AM
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To your first point, most people would readily confess to selling drugs if it absolves them of a murder charge.

To your second, why would that prevent him from saying anything once he found out Hae was murdered?
To both points - getting absolved from a murder charge requires getting someone else convicted, and also somehow placing oneself and family beyond retaliation from the culprit's criminal associates. I believe Adnan was the "dumb drop" in the drug transaction, so whatever small information he offered would be overwhelmed by Jay's story.

You do NOT want to implicate drug gangs in murders. If they can't come after you, they'll come after your family or friends. Can we all agree on that?

Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 12-30-2014 at 07:10 AM.
  #371  
Old 12-30-2014, 07:22 AM
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Moderator note


Brickbacon, Labrador Deceiver, both of you were acting like complete jerks in your squabble yesterday. I flipped a coin as to whether to give you warnings for it or not, and you won -- no warnings, just a stern "do not do this again."

twickster, Cafe Society moderator
  #372  
Old 12-30-2014, 08:07 AM
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You do NOT want to implicate drug gangs in murders. If they can't come after you, they'll come after your family or friends. Can we all agree on that?
No. Honestly, any drug gang selling to a high school honors students is not going to kill his family in retaliation. There is almost no way these two were involved in major drug sales. Both had jobs and Jay didn't even have a phone, pager, or car. Jay was supposedly driving around town looking for dime bags earlier in the day the day Hae was murdered. The idea there is some shady drug gang out there is ludicrous, and it makes no sense to keep up this ruse for nearly 15 years while you rot away in jail.
  #373  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:02 AM
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To both points - getting absolved from a murder charge requires getting someone else convicted, and also somehow placing oneself and family beyond retaliation from the culprit's criminal associates. I believe Adnan was the "dumb drop" in the drug transaction, so whatever small information he offered would be overwhelmed by Jay's story.
So, you're saying he went to jail for life in order to save his family? I tend to doubt it.
  #374  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:08 AM
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So what do people think of the new Jay interview?

Over on Reddit everyone thinks it puts Jay in a worse light. But to me his new story makes sense.
Sure, his new story makes sense, but it's still another all new story. How many times can we say "I don't believe the previous story, but I believe this one" before we just conclude that Jay is untrustworthy?
  #375  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:10 AM
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Sure, his new story makes sense, but it's still another all new story. How many times can we say "I don't believe the previous story, but I believe this one" before we just conclude that Jay is untrustworthy?
I don't think anyone has ever said that prior to yesterday. During the podcast, the closest we ever came to that was "Jay is clearly lying his ass off about the details, but I believe him when he says Adnan killed Hae."

Last edited by Labrador Deceiver; 12-30-2014 at 09:12 AM.
  #376  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:16 AM
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As somebody who has spent a lot of my life being really good at lying to people, Jay's story just rings as true to me whereas Adnan's sounds like somebody still trying to hide something. Just what my gut tells me after reading Jay's interview. It just sounds fairly legit to me.

Last edited by GrandWino; 12-30-2014 at 09:16 AM.
  #377  
Old 12-30-2014, 09:55 AM
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Sure, his new story makes sense, but it's still another all new story. How many times can we say "I don't believe the previous story, but I believe this one" before we just conclude that Jay is untrustworthy?
19 yo Jay is certainly untrustworthy, but then we knew that already. And it's possible that he doesn't lie so much anymore now that he is older.

I do not see his motivation for coming forward and inventing a new false story, without even checking the details. He sounds like a guy who thinks that he can just tell the truth now, and things will be cleared up, he doesn't sound like a guy who is trying to cover up something with a clever lie.
  #378  
Old 12-30-2014, 10:44 AM
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Sure, his new story makes sense, but it's still another all new story. How many times can we say "I don't believe the previous story, but I believe this one" before we just conclude that Jay is untrustworthy?
Actually, it still doesn't make sense because his latest timeline still doesn't work. (This one has Adnan in two places at the same time.) Whatever happened, this latest version isn't it either. Maybe he's forgotten over the intervening years and is bullshitting details for this reporter. Maybe this is the story he's told himself so many times that he now believes it to be true. But it isn't what actually happened.

I'm still at "plausible, but not enough for a conviction."

Last edited by amarinth; 12-30-2014 at 10:44 AM.
  #379  
Old 12-30-2014, 12:06 PM
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Jay is a lying liar who lies so he can't add anything meaningful to the story any more.

It's all just diversions.
  #380  
Old 12-30-2014, 12:31 PM
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What, fifteen years later, does Jay need to come forward and give an interview to divert from? He's not in prison and has zero chance of going there.
  #381  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:35 PM
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What, fifteen years later, does Jay need to come forward and give an interview to divert from? He's not in prison and has zero chance of going there.
Not for him. For us.

Might as well read another interview with Aisha that adds nothing to nothing.
  #382  
Old 12-30-2014, 01:58 PM
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Actually, it still doesn't make sense because his latest timeline still doesn't work. (This one has Adnan in two places at the same time.) Whatever happened, this latest version isn't it either. Maybe he's forgotten over the intervening years and is bullshitting details for this reporter. Maybe this is the story he's told himself so many times that he now believes it to be true. But it isn't what actually happened.

I'm still at "plausible, but not enough for a conviction."
I'm with you. Especially about the false memory syndrome - even when the first investigation happened, they were only getting flawed memories of flawed perceptions. At this date, people surely have consolidated a narrative into a "memory" that could be very different from what actually happened. In line with something Sarah mentioned, it could even be that Adnan killed her, but at this point truly doesn't believe he did. Human brains can be weird.

And for me, that's a large part of what the podcast was about: we know there is an actual way things happened, but there's no way to access it. As Steven Novella has written,
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When someone looks at me and earnestly says, “I know what I saw,” I am fond of replying, “No you don’t.” You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under.
  #383  
Old 01-01-2015, 06:35 PM
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Someone on Reddit suggested that Jay may have some form of mental illness. Maybe that is going to far, but at this point I'm honestly beginning to wonder. He seems to be living in a fantasy world at times. I'm not saying that he's a compulsive liar, but maybe he doesn't know what is the truth and what isn't. Of course, that kind of personality is prime territory for false testimony and police manipulation. Even accidental manipulation.

Some of the things he says to the cops are just so bizarre. Like when he talks about what Adnan has on him, to make him go along with the burial. That Adnan knew he sold drugs. "Here's this drug dealer, and he has a rap sheet this long, go get his ass". The cops remind Jay that he has only been arrested once (which apparently was for disorderly conduct, BTW, and not even drug related). Jay starts in on a story about how the police harassed him, made him lie down in the snow outside his house, at gunpoint, and chased him with helicopters.

Helicopters? Seriously, dude? You want us to believe that something like that ever happened?
Just finished listening to the whole thing, and my impression is still that Jay comes across as the most creepy person in all this. I noted the "helicopters" comment, too. And maybe I'm just not comprehending just how terrifying the police are for a black male drug dealer in Baltimore, but his story of just going along with his friend/acquaintance who's asking for assistance moving a body...WTF? Even if you accept that not calling the police is understandable, that he could just go ride along with a body in the trunk is pretty frightening.

I guess Jay being sketchy doesn't automatically make Adnan innocent, I know. Man, I'm going to be turning this over in my head for days!

One thing I was wondering, which someone also mentioned earlier I think--it's not definite that Hae died on the 13th, right? That is, if we throw out Jay's story. So shouldn't Don, the boyfriend, have been looked at more closely? Especially since his alibi was corroborated by his manager...who was his mother?
  #384  
Old 01-01-2015, 09:21 PM
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One thing I was wondering, which someone also mentioned earlier I think--it's not definite that Hae died on the 13th, right? That is, if we throw out Jay's story.
Right, the only evidence that Hae died on the afternoon of January 13 is Jay's testimony. The simplest explanation would be that she did die soon after her disappearance on the 13th, as no one claims to have seen her alive after that afternoon, but her body wasn't found until weeks later. At that point they apparently couldn't pin down the exact day of death through forensic methods. So as far as the physical evidence goes, she could have been killed at any point within the next few days.
  #385  
Old 01-02-2015, 09:42 AM
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At this point what I'm thinking is that Sarah Koenig has wasted our time and needlessly complicated the lives of people who had put this behind them 15 years ago.

If she was really interested in exploring the failures in our police and justice system then the final episode would have concentrated on that.

Instead what we got was a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders.

It really is an irresponsible exercise of the power of mass media.
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  #386  
Old 01-05-2015, 07:11 PM
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At this point what I'm thinking is that Sarah Koenig has wasted our time and needlessly complicated the lives of people who had put this behind them 15 years ago.

If she was really interested in exploring the failures in our police and justice system then the final episode would have concentrated on that.

Instead what we got was a metaphorical shrug of the shoulders.

It really is an irresponsible exercise of the power of mass media.

I think I might agree with this.

In the last episode Sarah Koenig says, "When Rabia first told me about Adnan's case, certainty, one way or the other, seemed so attainable. We just needed to get the right documents, spend enough time, talk to the right people, find his alibi. Then I did find Asia, and she was real and she remembered and we all thought, "How hard can this possibly be? We just have to keep going."

Well pretty hard as it turns out. And finding that out brought a lot of people into the public eye in a way that is hard to justify for an outcome of "well we just don't know."

I would be furious if a reporter showed up at my work to ask about something that happened when I was in high school (they say they did this to Jenn and Jay's interview makes it sound like it happened to others). If I had been Jay, whatever my involvement, I never would have talked to them. They were right, showing up at his door was a dick move.
  #387  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:43 PM
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For those of you who still care, here's an interview with the prosecutor in the case:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...e-goes-record/
  #388  
Old 01-31-2015, 09:40 PM
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Although late to the game, I just finished listening to all 12 episodes during this last week. I really don't know which way I feel about who did it, although I'm sympathetic to Adnan's plight that he can get a reduced sentence only if he pleads guilty, even if he's innocent.

Guilty or not, I thought the weekly podcast was brilliant. This actually reminded me of Broadchurch (aka Gracepoint) - a short-run series, in which the identity of the killer, although anticlimatic, doesn't really matter because's its about how the story was told. I loved how Broadchurch gave us a view into interactions and lies and suspicions told in a small town, and Serial got me hooked into how inter-related these people's lives were and how complicated life is. In Broadchurch the visuals of the seaside village were compelling. In Serial the music from Bad Dream gives me chills, and hearing a recorded "this is a call from" where-ever is going to make me think back to this story. I think Serial will popularize (repopularize?) podcasts, and i imagine imitators will jump onto the bandwagon with similar podcasts. Does anyone else think might be a movie or tv-series being developed that mimics this style?
  #389  
Old 02-07-2015, 06:48 PM
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The Maryland Court of Appeals has ruled that it will hear arguments in defense of Adnan Syed.

http://mdcourts.gov/cosappeals/pdfs/...er20150206.pdf
  #390  
Old 02-08-2015, 06:15 PM
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Interesting to see what happens. I'm still so torn on it!
  #391  
Old 02-08-2015, 08:21 PM
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First episode thoughts:
If Adnan did it, he's a great liar. If Jay is lying, eh: Jay's not such a great liar. In fact he sounds like a bullshitter.

Ep 2-10 thoughts: the state's case makes no freaking sense. Is it even possible that somebody could be a psychopath without anybody noticing up to the event of the heinious crime? Psychologically, I mean. The dark stories about Adnan simply weren't that dark or unusual given his age. (I don't quite want to say they were typical.)

And sheesh, the guy was a player.

Ep 11 thoughts: Oh. Ok, that's a plausible psychology. Adnan could have murdered Hae in a fit of passion, while earlier thinking about it without necessarily being serious about it. Would he have opened up to Jay? Maybe, but that sounds like a Jay-story.

The state's timeline is still fucked and/or highly dubious though. I couldn't tell whether there was a probable timeline for Adnan though. Weird that Adnan would solicit Jay's help with this though: maybe Adnan hoped that if Jay was an auxillary he would shut up. If this was wholly pre-meditated was Jay's involvement necessary? Of course if Adnan killed Hae, he probably had a streak of stupidity.

What are the other scenarios?

Jay encounters a killer during his life of crime and is blackmailed to shut up about it.

Jay makes a pass on Hae; Hae threatens to tell Stephanie, Jay kills Hae: he had already fantasized about framing Adnan.

Something else, but you have to account for Jay knowing where Hae's car is. Even if it's dumb luck.

Overall: Koenig's chief motive in all this I think was to not get burnt. So while she established reasonable doubts in the mind of the audience, she didn't quite drill down into either the core of ambiguity regarding eg plausible times for Hae's death. Also libel.


---
Ref links:
Three part exclusive interview with Jay, published Dec 29.

Ezra Klein, the Jay interview and reasonable doubt from Dec 31st. (Shorter.)

Feb 7 update by Sarah Koenig on the recent legal developments.
---

ETA: I wonder about Patapsco State Park. That sounds like Jay was trying to unsuccessfully patch Adnan into a pre-existing timeline.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 02-08-2015 at 08:26 PM.
  #392  
Old 02-08-2015, 11:57 PM
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I enjoyed the podcast very much as a view into the atmosphere of the individuals involved. I'm amazed at the multimedia talents of the Baltimore Sun's crime reporters. But I'm more than a bit puzzled by the editorial/investigative choices involved.

Case in point 1: The most important fact is that Jay took police to Hae's car. I want to know everything possible about that. Did the police truly have no idea where the car was? Was there any evidence that the car was moved during the period of the search (e.g., was there street cleaning)? If Jay really knew where the car was, that's proof positive of his involvement. I wish that the podcast delved into this further.

Case in point 1.5: Was the car in walking distance from the burial site? Was this a one-person job, or two?

Case in point 2: Jay and Adnan each report that they aren't that close. That's obfuscation, at least. What kid loans his car and his brand-new phone to someone who is not that close? And didn't someone from the track team say that Jay picking up Adnan from practice was not uncommon? Again, time spent on figuring out the economic impact of butt-dialing could have been better spent determining what contemporaries said about the closeness of Jay and Adnan.

Case in point 3: I understand Adnan not expressing anger in his interviews. He's had a long time to come to terms with his current circumstances. I don't understand him not pointing the finger squarely at Jay, and sticking with it. He's had more exposure to the evidence than we, and there is no way to rationalize Jay's confession to grave-digging without Jay's involvement. And if I'm Adnan, the only thing that I want to discuss, when it comes to Hae's murder, is Jay.

Case in point 4: Is there any way to figure out who did call Hae after her disappearance? Three calls from Adnan late night the night before the disappearance, none ever after is pretty compelling circumstantial evidence against him.
  #393  
Old 02-09-2015, 01:15 AM
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Good questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbonden View Post
Case in point 1: The most important fact is that Jay took police to Hae's car. I want to know everything possible about that.
Me too.
Quote:
Case in point 1.5: Was the car in walking distance from the burial site? Was this a one-person job, or two?
In the podcast, the distance from the burial site to the road was stated. The streaker claimed that he could see the fallen tree from the road, IIRC. But it was still some distance. In the interview, Jay claims he didn't help Adnan move the body, though Jay's word is unreliable. Presumably the killer moved the body to the trunk of the car on his own.

Digging holes isn't easy and the job wasn't that well done.
Quote:
Case in point 2: Jay and Adnan each report that they aren't that close. That's obfuscation, at least. What kid loans his car and his brand-new phone to someone who is not that close? And didn't someone from the track team say that Jay picking up Adnan from practice was not uncommon?
They hung out and smoked pot. I wondered whether they had a crime partnership or were planning one. I think there was some discussion of how close they were and if there were conflicting witnesses, Koenig would have discussed it. I suspect there's no there there.
Quote:
Case in point 3: I understand Adnan not expressing anger in his interviews. He's had a long time to come to terms with his current circumstances. I don't understand him not pointing the finger squarely at Jay, and sticking with it. He's had more exposure to the evidence than we, and there is no way to rationalize Jay's confession to grave-digging without Jay's involvement. And if I'm Adnan, the only thing that I want to discuss, when it comes to Hae's murder, is Jay.
Bad mouthing somebody on the outside can only hurt your chances at appeal. Discussed in last 2 episodes. Far better to get other people to point the finger at Jay.

I felt that I totally understood Adnan's stance. To wit, choose your story and stick to it. Don't threaten, don't speculate. Because even one false statement will destroy what little credibility you have. Even if the false statement was speculation.
Quote:
Case in point 4: Is there any way to figure out who did call Hae after her disappearance? Three calls from Adnan late night the night before the disappearance, none ever after is pretty compelling circumstantial evidence against him.
I totally missed this.


What I want to see is whether there is a credible timeline that involves Adnan. Because Jay's initial story is impossible and the one he eventually arrived at has plenty of evidence against it. But there might be a scenario that doesn't involve clockwork timing or impossibilities.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 02-09-2015 at 01:16 AM.
  #394  
Old 02-09-2015, 01:21 AM
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Remarkable and interesting that the cops never searched Jay's house or did DNA testing on Hae's body.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 02-09-2015 at 01:22 AM.
  #395  
Old 02-09-2015, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbonden View Post

Case in point 4: Is there any way to figure out who did call Hae after her disappearance? Three calls from Adnan late night the night before the disappearance, none ever after is pretty compelling circumstantial evidence against him.
Is it? Why?

ETA: Sorry, didn't see "none ever after." But that makes sense to me. If someone disappeared, presumably they're not checking their cell phone and it's likely if she did turn up, he'd expect to hear about it right away (from friends, etc.). Plus, wasn't it established that Don didn't call her after, either?

Last edited by Freudian Slit; 02-09-2015 at 05:04 AM.
  #396  
Old 02-09-2015, 06:05 AM
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Was it stated that Hae had a cell phone? I thought that Adnan had called her house before it was known she had disappeared, and that not calling after it was known was pretty normal.
  #397  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:22 AM
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Was it stated that Hae had a cell phone? I thought that Adnan had called her house before it was known she had disappeared, and that not calling after it was known was pretty normal.
Good question...yes, that would be even weirder if he kept calling her house. I think she had a cell, because he was calling her late at night the evening before she died. After midnight, I think...don't think he would have called her house repeatedly and risked waking her parents.
  #398  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:40 AM
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Good question...yes, that would be even weirder if he kept calling her house. I think she had a cell, because he was calling her late at night the evening before she died. After midnight, I think...don't think he would have called her house repeatedly and risked waking her parents.
I think in one of the earlier episodes they talked about how Hae and Adnan had a system for calling into the house without disturbing her parents that involved multiple calls and Hae turning off ringers. I'm pretty sure Hae didn't have a cell phone. I'm not sure if there's transcripts of the podcast anywhere I could search for, though.
  #399  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:55 AM
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I think in one of the earlier episodes they talked about how Hae and Adnan had a system for calling into the house without disturbing her parents that involved multiple calls and Hae turning off ringers. I'm pretty sure Hae didn't have a cell phone. I'm not sure if there's transcripts of the podcast anywhere I could search for, though.
I've been googling to try to find out, but nothing's coming up. (And I thought my obsession had subsided! Damn!) If Hae didn't have a cell, then it would be really weird to try to contact her, since that would just mean calling her house--and pretty upsetting for her parents.
  #400  
Old 02-09-2015, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian Slit View Post
I've been googling to try to find out, but nothing's coming up. (And I thought my obsession had subsided! Damn!) If Hae didn't have a cell, then it would be really weird to try to contact her, since that would just mean calling her house--and pretty upsetting for her parents.
Reddit delivers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Koenig
They had a whole system for this. One would page the other when the coast was clear. This was 1998, so not many cell phones around. Then that person would call some 1-800 service like the weather or the time and the other one would call in so the phone wouldn’t actually ring. It would come in through call waiting and the dozing parents would never be the wiser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddit user j2kelley
The call records show that he's on the phone with Krista until about 11:26 p.m. on Jan. 12. At 11:27, he calls Hae and it rings for 2 seconds (0:02). He does this again at 12:01 a.m., then he connects with her at 12:35 a.m., where they talk for about a minute and a half.

Here's how this makes sense in the context of their late-night calling system:
Adnan was on the phone with Krista when Hae paged him, prior to 11:27. He hangs up with her soon after that so he can call Hae back, but when her landline starts to ring he can immediately tell she's not on the 1-800 line waiting for him to click in. (I was their age back then - I remember being able to distinguish whether a person with Call Waiting was already on the phone by the way it rang.)

He must have quickly hung up, and - as he wouldn't call her house late-night without getting a page first - she must have paged him again around midnight, but he didn't call back at the right time for that one either so he hangs up (0:02).

Unless Hae had another way for communicating to Adnan she wanted him to call her, she likely paged him one last time - right before 12:35 a.m. That is when, it appears, their system worked and they connected, talking for more than a minute. ...
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