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  #201  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I do find it curious and not a little condescending, they think they know my mind and preferences better than I do, that I could reach a higher plane of enjoyment if only I were more educated (as they are of course)

Music isn’t an area of expertise for me, food and drink is.

Imagine I sat down with a friend and ate a wonderful meal that blows their mind. “Ah, I say. But you are missing out on so much and you could be enjoying it so much more as I am if you only took the time to learn how the meat was raised, butchered and prepared. The sort of knife and pan that was used, the motivations and history of the chef and the construction of the restaurant itself. I’m actually enjoying this more than you are”

That would obnoxious and I’d never even think it, let alone say it. The magic trick can better when we don’t know how it is done.
Well said. I see from reading a bit further that the mind-reading hasn't stopped. Thudlow Boink almost had it when he used the word "atypical". If he had left it at that, then that would have been to my mind a reasonable place to end this discussion.But, no... Not that I necessarily agree that your viewpoint is atypical, but at least it would show a willingness to accept what you are saying and move on.

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  #202  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
Well said. I see from reading a bit further that the mind-reading hasn't stopped. Thudlow Boink almost had it when he used the word "atypical". If he had left it at that, then that would have been to my mind a reasonable place to end this discussion.But, no...
I tried to explain my reasoning. Do you think any of my arguments were faulty?
  #203  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:36 AM
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[QUOTE=Fiddle Peghead;21823329]Well said. I see from reading a bit further that the mind-reading hasn't stopped. /QUOTE]

Psychology is not "mind-reading", it's science. Novelty Bobble is factually wrong if he thinks his intellect plays no part in his enjoyment of art.
  #204  
Old 08-24-2019, 11:19 AM
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I think to some extent we are all already consumers of classical music - it's well baked into our culture and we're constantly exposed to snippets of it though weddings, music classes at school, movies, commercials, cartoons, religious services, etc. Everyone is familiar with a bunch of classical pieces even if maybe they can't name them. So it's not such a big deal if people don't want to listen to classical in their spare time except on special occasions.

But I can't defend faux-classical music that's hybridized with modern music - in my opinion classical music turns into a silly freakshow when mixed with New Age pan flutes & chanting, rock guitar, etc. (sorry, fans of Yo-Yo Ma or the Aerosmith / Boston Pops medley)
  #205  
Old 08-24-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
[b]]

The first claim is that understanding of a work of art never increases enjoyment (cite).
That isn’t what that quote says though is it? I have accepted several times in this thread that indeed for some people it may.
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  #206  
Old 08-24-2019, 11:39 AM
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Because I like to own the classical music lovers?
  #207  
Old 08-24-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenWyvern View Post

You say you know about food. Suppose you were eating with someone who didn't. You might say, 'This dish was cooked using such-and-such method to improve the flavour. These are the herbs that were used. This one is used to balance that taste. Too much of this would have that effect. You can taste the individual components that were used. You can taste that this ingredient is very fresh. This variety of produce was used, but it would have been better to use that one, because the cooking properties are different in this way. That side portion has been slightly undercooked. It should have been like this.'

The person you were speaking to, not knowing any of this, will taste more carefully and try to taste all the aspects you have been describing... and he will enjoy his meal all the more because of that close attention to detail. If he continues to do this regularly, and to find out more about how the taste of different dishes is created, his physical ability to taste subtle differences will be improved, and he will enjoy his food far more.

It's the same with music.
So, you think that my pointing out, in detail, the problems with the meal they were previously enjoying will in fact make them enjoy it more? What sort of people do you normally dine with?
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  #208  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
So, you think that my pointing out, in detail, the problems with the meal they were previously enjoying will in fact make them enjoy it more? What sort of people do you normally dine with?
That you consider facts and knowledge "problems" says a lot about you.

It's possible that pointing out these features of the meal wouldn't enhance their enjoyment of that particular meal, but by no means certain. What is certain is that, if they to choose to take in and understand that knowledge, they will be able to select future meals that they will enjoy more and, knowing these things, appreciate those meals on a far deeper level than "this tastes nice".

Entertainment, enjoyment, appreciation and so forth are not simple emotional responses - even in you - and repeatedly claiming otherwise will not change that. Learning more about art will, necessarily, increase your enjoyment of it because as well as the simple emotional response you crave you will have the intellectual enjotment of it.

And you know you have an intellectual response to art because you can tell the difference between the music you like and someone simply banging two rocks together. That requires thought, not merely instinct.
  #209  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LC Strawhouse View Post
...But I can't defend faux-classical music that's hybridized with modern music - in my opinion classical music turns into a silly freakshow when mixed with New Age pan flutes & chanting, rock guitar, etc. (sorry, fans of Yo-Yo Ma or the Aerosmith / Boston Pops medley)
Er... Yo Yo Ma is one of the greatest living cellists. Some of his most recent recordings have been... not my thing (his Silk Road crossover stuff) but his credentials speak for themselves. He's the real thing.
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  #210  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:19 PM
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The theory (musical or culinary) does not come up in vacuo; people came up with it to analyse extant and historical traditions. After enjoying many meals you learn to appreciate them, and at that point it may be natural to become curious about the various ingredients, spices, preparation, and cooking methods (which flavors you have, consciously or not, noticed due to experience, if not systematically).

Last edited by DPRK; 08-24-2019 at 12:23 PM.
  #211  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:34 PM
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So, you think that my pointing out, in detail, the problems with the meal they were previously enjoying will in fact make them enjoy it more? What sort of people do you normally dine with?
There was one negative item in a long list of positive ones. But that's hardly the point is it?

This the same kind of diversionary tactic that Trump supporters and flat-earthers use to avoid responding to reasoned arguments.

So, sure, Novelty Bobble...

"Ignorance is bliss! There's no such thing as easy or difficult works of music, and anyone who says otherwise is being pretentious!"

  #212  
Old 08-24-2019, 01:24 PM
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I see two main reasons for classical music hate. The first is that they, as some have mentioned in this thread, were forced to endure classical as a child, whether for piano or other instrumental lessons, or through the musical choices of people around them. They then associate the classical with that feeling of being a bored child, and there you go. Many people won't even give it a chance, because they are already turned off by it.

The second is that it is more complex. There are very few pop songs that you cannot turn on somewhere in the middle, and just start singing (or at least humming) along, even if you've never heard it before. Try that with most classical, and you will be confused and bored, as you don't know the context of the notes that you are currently hearing.

The third movement of Moonlight Sonata, like it or not, you can't call it "boring". But without listening to the first 2 movements, which are not quite as fast and full of transitions and jumps, it lacks context, and is just a bunch of notes being played really fast. With the previous movements having set up themes and melodies, the third can take those and use them for a whole new effect. It'd be like watching the climax of a movie without seeing the first 2 acts. Sure, the fight scene is "cool", but knowing who is fighting and why will add enjoyment to your experience.

Modern pop music doesn't require as much investment for an equivalent payoff, but I personally feel that the investment is more than worthwhile. It's not just notes, it is telling a story, it is painting a picture.

There are very few classical pieces that I listen to, even for the umpteenth time, that I don't notice some new little feature in it that I hadn't noticed a previous time. Once I've listened to most modern pop music, there's very little new nuance to be discovered on subsequent listens.

People listen to far more classical than they think. If you watched a movie recently, you probably listened to some classical. If you watched a TV show, there was probably some classical in the soundtrack. If you saw a commercial, odds are that it had classical music in it. These are not put in because the director of the commercial was a classical music snob, they put them in precisely because that style of music does in fact resonate with most people.


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Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil View Post
I still listen to 70s rock, or 80s pop daily, but it's almost entirely for nostalgic reasons. I'm not a snob : you do you. And I still sometimes hear new songs that I like, in a lot of popular genres. Frankly, I feel that a lot of snottiness comes from "the other side" (hardcore classic rock or indie fan, anyone ?).
Quite a few of the artists of the 50's, 60's, and 70's were trained in classical music. When they started making rock, they stuck with quite a bit of the the same theory that makes classical work.
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In the end, it boils down to what you look for in music, and in my observation, there are perhaps two main types of music listeners : those who want to move and those who want to feel, with of course some possibly significant overlap depending on the person. I don't care about dancing (or moshing or headbanging) one bit. But when I listen to Classical music, I often have powerful reactions that are almost tactile.
I've never had a piece of modern rock reach into my gut and twist the way that some classical pieces do.

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Originally Posted by Hilarity N. Suze View Post
I do like classical music. But one thing that's harder to appreciate, when you're not hearing it in person, is the dynamics. There are pieces I love to hear live, because, heard live, they go from almost silent so it's like you're thinking the piece in your head, or sensing it in your bones, to bombastically loud, but yet not overpowering.

On a recording? This doesn't work. First you have to turn your sound up really loud, for the quiet parts. Then you have to jump up and turn it down so it doesn't shatter your speakers, and make your windows rattle.
The window rattling is the best part.
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Now they don't always get the acoustics right in the concert hall, although they mostly do. But they almost never get it right on a recording, although they sometimes do. Like, I used to have a recording by the 1955 (or something) Vienna Symphony (or something) of a couple of pieces I loved so much that I put them on to get me going in the morning as I was getting ready for class. I have never found another recorded version of this particular music that works (and I don't have a turntable any more). In fairness, I didn't much like any of the versions I heard the Denver Symphony Orchestra perform either, so maybe it was only that one, but the main thing was, on that one recording I could hear it all without fiddling with the volume. That's one example of one specific piece, but I have had similar trouble with others.

I don't know if the sound engineers recording classical stuff just say, "Fuck them if they can't get to a performance," or what.
I've heard some classical concert goers (I like classical, but have only attended a few concerts in my life) like to try different seats, as the acoustics are different in different places, and a piece can be played identically, but have a completely different effect depending on where you are sitting and what parts of the orchestra are emphasized in your location.

Hard to replicate that with a recording.
  #213  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:19 PM
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That you consider facts and knowledge "problems" says a lot about you.
I consider the problems being pointed as "problems" but certainly, facts and knowledge can be problematic as well. You can be told something about a meal or music or an artist or a work that you would rather not know and could indeed diminsh you enjoyment of it. Is that fact a problem for you? Would you not accept that in some cases as well too much knowledge and over-analysis can get in the way? Not for everyone.......but defintely for some. I know of a photographer friend of mine who finds it painfull to look through other peoples photos as they see technical errors and compositional mistakes, their brain is full of how it could be better rather than enjoying them for what they are.

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It's possible that pointing out these features of the meal wouldn't enhance their enjoyment of that particular meal, but by no means certain.
Correct. For some it will, for some it won't matter., for some it may even make them enjooy it less.

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What is certain is that, if they to choose to take in and understand that knowledge, they will be able to select future meals that they will enjoy more and, knowing these things, appreciate those meals on a far deeper level than "this tastes nice".
No, that final part is not certain at all.

[quote] Learning more about art will, necessarily, increase your enjoyment of it ]/quote] No, not "necessarily" at all. The statement you are grasping for is "for some people, learning more about art will increase their enjoyment" Not sure why that is such a controversial statement.

How do you account for the fact that that has never happened to me for music? Do you think I'm lying about it? I readily admit that learning more about certain scientific and techological areas has increased my enjoyment of some sports and some areas of my work. Why do you think I am unable to make the same judgement regarding music? I know my mind better than you do.

What you really seem to mean is that learning about art increases your own enjoyment of it. I'm delighted for you and take you at your word even though you have absolutely nothing to base that on other than your own internal assessment. (because that is the only metric that we ever have).
You might want to extend me the same courtesy rather than assuming that everyone must experience the world the same way that you do. That smacks of arrogance.
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  #214  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:26 PM
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There was one negative item in a long list of positive ones. But that's hardly the point is it?
There were two negative ones and a detailed lecture but I'm sure your dinner guest was able to put it out of their mind and is eagerly awaiting to be told how and how much to enjoy the background music and the crusted port.
It is entirely possible that they may have hightened enjoyment of such sensory delights in the future but I bet it'll mainly be due to never dining in your company ever again.
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  #215  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:28 PM
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This the same kind of diversionary tactic that Trump supporters and flat-earthers use to avoid responding to reasoned arguments.,

I guess we've hit the "Nazi post" of this thread. Bringing Trump into ievery thread is a true SDMB Hallmark.

:Rolleyes: , indeed

FWIW, I agree that appreciation of music is improved by knowledge, but I don't understand why winning the internet is so important.
  #216  
Old 08-24-2019, 03:03 PM
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How do you account for the fact that that has never happened to me for music? Do you think I'm lying about it?
I think you are wrong about it, and yes, I do think I know your mind better than you do on this subject, simply because I know a little bit about the psychology of understanding art, specifically music.

The most arrogant thing here is your assumption that you are somehow special, that your mind is somehow different from everyone else's, and that you can somehow understand all art at the first impression.

There are a couple of questions that other people have asked you that you have not yet answered that will get to the heart of this. Do you think that you can get as much enjoyment from poetry in a languge you don't understand as from one you do? And do you understand that hearing, whether music, speech or just noise, is an activity that happens in the brain and not just the ears? The point of the latter question is to make it very clear that not everyone hears the same thing when they listen to the same sounds, and that learning to hear is something that you will, necessarily, have done if you are able to hear and understand music at all.

Plus, something of mine that you have not yet responded to. Do you understand that responding to art, including music, is not simply an emotional response, but one that involves thought? It doesn't require conscious thought, but unconcscious thoughts are learned behaviour and learned responses just as much as conscious ones are.
  #217  
Old 08-24-2019, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
There were two negative ones and a detailed lecture but I'm sure your dinner guest was able to put it out of their mind and is eagerly awaiting to be told how and how much to enjoy the background music and the crusted port.
It is entirely possible that they may have hightened enjoyment of such sensory delights in the future but I bet it'll mainly be due to never dining in your company ever again.
This is unnecessarily personal. Dial it back, or I'll dial it back for you.
  #218  
Old 08-25-2019, 03:39 AM
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...

I've never had a piece of modern rock reach into my gut and twist the way that some classical pieces do.

...
Great post, and yes to this !

Some solo piano pieces by Beethoven (sonatas n°14, 15, 26, 32 at the very least), Schubert (sonata n°20), Chopin (Nocturnes n°1, 2, 6, 8, 9, 13, 15, 17, 19 and Préludes n°4, 6, 15, 20), Brahms (Klavierstück 118/2 and 6), Satie (Gnossienne n°1), Prokofiev (sonatas n°2 and 8) or Scriabin (sonata n°6) have a purely visceral effect on me in way that no other music has. At risk of sounding corny : sighs, restlessness, a twisting, sinking sensation in the guts and, yes, teary eyes. I love all genres of music, but only get such a strong reaction from Classical music.

And when I feel this, I have to understand how it works.

Case in point, about a year ago I was listening to Debussy's Pour Remercier la Pluie au Matin from 6 Épigraphes Antiques and wondering how he had managed to capture that fuzzy, rainy morning vibe so perfectly in the first 3-4 seconds. I rushed to IMSLP to have a look at the score (p. 23) and reading it did increase my enjoyment because I was able to see the movement of the different voices, which I was unable to hear clearly. Moreover, it opens up the possibility of playing it one day (ahem...), which is another joy in itself.
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Et d’où ma vie s’égoutte au moindre mouvement

Last edited by Les Espaces Du Sommeil; 08-25-2019 at 03:43 AM.
  #219  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil View Post

Case in point, about a year ago I was listening to Debussy's Pour Remercier la Pluie au Matin from 6 Épigraphes Antiques and wondering how he had managed to capture that fuzzy, rainy morning vibe so perfectly in the first 3-4 seconds.
It's wonderful you feel this way. I don't think it holds a candle to Stevie Ray Vaugn's Riviera Paradise.. A far more powerful piece with great subtle interludes. The guitar work could not be reproduced by simply reading the notes. There is no way to annotate it on paper. I didn't have to learn to like it or understand the depth behind it. It was a grand slam home run on the first listen.

if someone doesn't think it's the best damn thing ever played I'm not bothered in the least because I know what it does for me. I don't need my opinion validated. I just hope there is music out there that does the same for those who don't like it so they can experience the joy of music on the same level I do.

If the music I like needs to be explained to someone or they need to listen to it over and over to appreciate it then my suggestion is to move on to something else. Life is a limited engagement.

I think that's different than saying you can gain a greater appreciation for something by focusing on what is is you like about it and then seeking out music that scratches that itch.
  #220  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:02 PM
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Why, oh why does talking about one's favourite music and the way one enjoys it has turn into a pissing contest ?

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I don't think it holds a candle to Stevie Ray Vaugn's Riviera Paradise


Nice piece, by the way.
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Mais je porte accroché au plus haut des entrailles
À la place où la foudre a frappé trop souvent
Un cœur où chaque mot a laissé son entaille
Et d’où ma vie s’égoutte au moindre mouvement
  #221  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:17 PM
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It's wonderful you feel this way. I don't think it holds a candle to Stevie Ray Vaugn's Riviera Paradise.. A far more powerful piece with great subtle interludes. The guitar work could not be reproduced by simply reading the notes. There is no way to annotate it on paper. I didn't have to learn to like it or understand the depth behind it. It was a grand slam home run on the first listen.

if someone doesn't think it's the best damn thing ever played I'm not bothered in the least because I know what it does for me. I don't need my opinion validated. I just hope there is music out there that does the same for those who don't like it so they can experience the joy of music on the same level I do.

If the music I like needs to be explained to someone or they need to listen to it over and over to appreciate it then my suggestion is to move on to something else. Life is a limited engagement.

I think that's different than saying you can gain a greater appreciation for something by focusing on what is is you like about it and then seeking out music that scratches that itch.
So your taste does not, and can not, evolve or change? In your life experience it has never happened?
  #222  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:24 PM
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You can't dance to it. Unless your idea of "shaking ur booty" is doing the minuet in petticoats.
  #223  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil View Post
Why, oh why does talking about one's favourite music and the way one enjoys it has turn into a pissing contest ?





Nice piece, by the way.
It's not a pissing contest. It was meant to be tongue in cheek. There's no such thing as "the best damn thing every played". That was the whole point of the post. There is no winner or loser in choice of music. You should not feel good or bad if I love or don't love your favorite music.
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Old 08-25-2019, 01:16 PM
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So your taste does not, and can not, evolve or change? In your life experience it has never happened?
Evolve or change? I might use a different word or two to convey my point. If you insist on an up or down single word answer I would say my taste "can" evolve or change.

I would say each new piece of music is a function of refinement. I like a variety of music and whatever I like in each genre will be refined in new bands in that genre.

I'm not going to change my mind on opera. It's incredibly irritating to me and that increases as the pitch goes up. I don't particularly like singers to begin with. If I like a singer it's because their voice is melodic and not just carrying a tune. I'm also not interested in lyrics. That doesn't mean I won't listen to them or can't enjoy them it means they don't rate high overall in a song. That varies by artist and there are no absolutes.

So what does this mean? How do I quantify music? I think a good song has a personality to it. I listen to a lot of live music which means I listen to a lot of cover bands. If they play songs I like and they capture the personality of the song then I think they've done a good job.

At the end of the day my opinion only matters to me and those with similar taste if I'm going out socially to listen to music. If nobody I know likes what I want to listen to then I go alone and meet new people. It's a win/win for me. I've had the most interesting conversations with complete strangers and we came together out of a common music interest.
  #225  
Old 08-25-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil View Post
Case in point, about a year ago I was listening to Debussy's Pour Remercier la Pluie au Matin from 6 Épigraphes Antiques and wondering how he had managed to capture that fuzzy, rainy morning vibe so perfectly in the first 3-4 seconds. I rushed to IMSLP to have a look at the score (p. 23) and reading it did increase my enjoyment because I was able to see the movement of the different voices, which I was unable to hear clearly. Moreover, it opens up the possibility of playing it one day (ahem...), which is another joy in itself.
BTW, I picked Riviera Paradise because it linked up in my mind to your example of Debussy's Pour Remercier la Pluie au Matin. It was no accident. No idea why I linked the two. I suppose someone with a PHD in music and math could tell me why and write an algorithm to select music for me to sample.

I sort of understand your point about learning more about the music. I didn't realize WHY I liked Led Zeppelin so much. It turns out it was John Bonham's influence on the songs and how well the band played together. I've watched videos explaining his drumming. Maybe I secretly like the fact my opinion was validated by people who know more about the structure of music.

Last edited by Magiver; 08-25-2019 at 01:46 PM.
  #226  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:15 AM
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Yes Bonham was one of the key ingredients - to keep the culinary metaphor - that made Led Zeppelin great.

I don't think being interested in how music works is about validation at all (not for you and me anyways). It's genuine curiosity which is satisfying in itself. And as pointed out earlier, you hear things differently when you know and understand more about them.
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Mais je porte accroché au plus haut des entrailles
À la place où la foudre a frappé trop souvent
Un cœur où chaque mot a laissé son entaille
Et d’où ma vie s’égoutte au moindre mouvement
  #227  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:46 PM
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I think you are wrong about it, and yes, I do think I know your mind better than you do on this subject, simply because I know a little bit about the psychology of understanding art, specifically music.
And you know what they say about a little knowledge.

Quote:
The most arrogant thing here is your assumption that you are somehow special, that your mind is somehow different from everyone else's, and that you can somehow understand all art at the first impression.
So here it seems to me is the nub of your problem. These issues are obviously grinding your gears, you have stated them clearly and yet you are demonstrably wrong.

I have never claimed to be special. Not at all. I get maximal enjoymement from music without any deeper intellectual enquiry. That is just how it works for me. In the same way that I held my head up, as a child, to a heavy snowfall and joyfully felt it on my face. As an adult my understanding of sensory perception, physiology, physcis and meteorology all increased and yet none of that means that I can surpass that initial sensory and emotional "hit".

I am not different from other people. I believe that lots of people have a field of human experience that they are personally quite happy to experience in a purely a sensory and emotional way, something for which additional intellectual enquiry does not increase their enjoyment.

Clearly that is not music for you, it is for me.

And finally, and the biggest incorrect assumption you make, is that I make any claim to understanding.

I didn't, I haven't and I don't.

I talk about my personal enjoyment of art and on that I am more of an expert than you can ever comprehend.

Quote:
There are a couple of questions that other people have asked you that you have not yet answered that will get to the heart of this. Do you think that you can get as much enjoyment from poetry in a languge you don't understand as from one you do?
The reason I haven't responded in full is because I've been away on holiday with crappy access and I can't type for shit on a touchscreen. Plus cricket has been by far the most important thing in my life for the past few days.

To answer. Yes. Absolutely. I adore The Cocteau Twins. My childern tease me about my Amazon Prime playlist containing a high proportion of foriegn language songs or gibberish. Roykssopp. Sigur Ros, Pretty much anything Elizabeth Fraser does. When I came to love them I did not have a clue what they were singing about nor even if they meant anything at all. In the near 40 years since I first heard them I have been able to know more about the Cocteau Twins and their "lyrics". I can honestly say that knowing the actual words has not increased my enjoyment one jot. Like seeing a favourite book committed to screen, my imagination created a world that the reality can't compete with.

I prefer to listen to opera in the original language. The music of Madam Butterly was not enhanced by having a blow-by-blow telling of the tale.

another one for you.

Yan, tan, tether, mether, pip.
Hether, sether, hother, dother, dick.
yan-dick, tan-dick. tether-dick, mether-dick, bumfit.
yan-bumfit, tan-bumfit, tether-bumfit, mether-bumfit, jiggit.

A nonsense rhyme that my grandad used to sing to me as we walked the lanes of of the Durham dales.
I had the fancy that they were magic words, only years later did I find out that it is an ancient way of counting sheep. Celtic in origin apparently. Learning that has not increased my enjoyment of the rhyme.

Quote:
And do you understand that hearing, whether music, speech or just noise, is an activity that happens in the brain and not just the ears? The point of the latter question is to make it very clear that not everyone hears the same thing when they listen to the same sounds, and that learning to hear is something that you will, necessarily, have done if you are able to hear and understand music at all.
I admit that a brain is required in order to process sounds and in order to have an emotional response. I have made no claim about "understanding" music. I'm not even sure what that means. I'm happy to accept that for some people, repeated close, analytical listening to music might reveal further details to them that give them pleasure. I do not accept that it is a universal truth that must necessarily be true for everyone.

Quote:
Plus, something of mine that you have not yet responded to. Do you understand that responding to art, including music, is not simply an emotional response, but one that involves thought? It doesn't require conscious thought, but unconcscious thoughts are learned behaviour and learned responses just as much as conscious ones are.
Conscious thought and unconscious thought are what a brain is. I cannot help but have a brain pre-loaded with the sum total of my experiences thus far. That I prefer to experience music on a purely emotional level as much as is humanly possible is based on my experience of trying it both ways and finding which gave me the greatest pleasure.........for me.

I struggle to see why I would actively choose to avoid increasing my pleasure, especially when (as I've said before) other spheres of my life have shown that intellectual enquiry and understanding can increase my enjoyment. I know what both states feel like.

I come back to a magic tricks. I love magic. Sleight of hand particularly. I have studied the methods used and I know so much more now than I used to and the enjoyment I get now stems from the technical aspect of the craft. Ask me to weigh it up though and I can honestly state that watching magic tricks gives me less enjoyment overall than it used to. I will now purposefully avoid learning how tricks are done. I choose to live in a state of knowledge that allows me to maximise my enjoyment.

Hope that explanation helps. If you can see any hint of a similarity with some areas of you own life then you perhaps may see how I can honestly extend that approach to music.
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Last edited by Novelty Bobble; 08-26-2019 at 04:47 PM.
  #228  
Old 08-26-2019, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Les Espaces Du Sommeil View Post
Why, oh why does talking about one's favourite music and the way one enjoys it has turn into a pissing contest ?





Nice piece, by the way.
I don't know why the "why do you hate classical music" thread is so full of people saying how much they love classical music (not picking specifically on you here). It's practically thread-shitting. Imagine the reaction if it was the other way around.
  #229  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:59 PM
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I think the problem here is that the thing that makes people really love any art is the feeling of discovery it gives them. For some reason human nature than leaves almost everyone to try to force other people to see what they saw, which gives their victim the nearly opposite experience of being told they are supposed to have an emotional reaction they aren't having.
  #230  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I get maximal enjoymement from music without any deeper intellectual enquiry.
No, you don't, and just repeating that won't change it not being true.

Quote:
To answer. Yes. Absolutely. I adore The Cocteau Twins. My childern tease me about my Amazon Prime playlist containing a high proportion of foriegn language songs or gibberish.
The question was about poetry, and your choice to (again) not answer it is telling.

Tell me, do you have the same sort of response to this
Quote:
李白《静夜思》

床前明月光,

疑是地上霜。

举头望明月,

低头思故乡。
as to this
Quote:
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Quote:
I have made no claim about "understanding" music. I'm not even sure what that means.
And yet you feel able to say that doing so whould not increase your enjoyment of it. Hopefully you can see the contradiction there.

Quote:
I struggle to see why I would actively choose to avoid increasing my pleasure, especially when (as I've said before) other spheres of my life have shown that intellectual enquiry and understanding can increase my enjoyment. I know what both states feel like.
I struggle to see it too, and yet you seem to resist and attempt to do so.

Quote:
Ask me to weigh it up though and I can honestly state that watching magic tricks gives me less enjoyment overall than it used to.
"Ignorance is bliss" is not supposed to be a life goal.

Quote:
Hope that explanation helps. If you can see any hint of a similarity with some areas of you own life then you perhaps may see how I can honestly extend that approach to music.
One can be honest and wrong.

As for whether it applies to my life, I don't think so, at least not in the way you mean. I suspect I'd be happier if I knew less about politics, for example, and could have simple, sure but uninformed opinions about those matters. As for art though, no. It happens sometimes that I discover that a work I love is flawed, or even actually bad. Then, I have two options - enjoy it anyway, which is what I most commonly do - I don't listen to Motley Crue, for example, for the complexity of their compositions or subtlety of their lyrics.

What learning about art (or anything) does is open up whole new worlds of things to enjoy, and whole new ways of enjoying them. If you are satisfied with pure sensory enjoyment that's fine. But I find the idea that a magician can still fool you even though you know how the trick is done to be vastly more enjoyable than if I didn't, to the extent that I struggle to see how anyone wouldn't. And if they're not fooling you then, they are a bad magician. Find and enjoy a better one.
  #231  
Old 08-26-2019, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I get maximal enjoymement from music without any deeper intellectual enquiry.
...
I have made no claim about "understanding" music. I'm not even sure what that means.
...
I come back to a magic tricks. I love magic. Sleight of hand particularly. I have studied the methods used and I know so much more now than I used to and the enjoyment I get now stems from the technical aspect of the craft. Ask me to weigh it up though and I can honestly state that watching magic tricks gives me less enjoyment overall than it used to. I will now purposefully avoid learning how tricks are done. I choose to live in a state of knowledge that allows me to maximise my enjoyment.
Novelty Bobble, I appreciate your continued efforts to engage, argue, and explain your point of view. And I apologize to anyone who thinks that this discussion has become tedious or taken over the thread.

Since you bring up the magic analogy, let me use it to try to explain what I mean by understanding vs. not understanding music: Enjoying music on a purely emotional level, without understanding it, isn't so much like someone enjoying a magic show without having any idea how the magician does his tricks. It's more like someone enjoying a magic show without even realizing that the magician is doing tricks. Maybe you are enjoying the spectacle: the elaborate sets and costumes, the colors, the choreography—but if you never notice that something is happening which is seemingly impossible, you're not really understanding the show.
  #232  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:29 AM
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I recall Frederick Turner explaining that human beings are attracted to regular beats and short songs, among other things. This might explain why pop songs resemble various folk music. In contrast, classical music can be incredibly diverse, and thus much more difficult to appreciate.
  #233  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
No, you don't, and just repeating that won't change it not being true.
Seeing as "maximal enjoyment" is dependent on my own preferences. Your insistence that I am wrong seems monumentally arrogant. In effect you are saying that I am unable to distinguish between different levels of personal enjoyment.

You are incredulous that because it wouldn't be true for you it cannot be true for anyone else. That's a bizarre argument.

Quote:
The question was about poetry, and your choice to (again) not answer it is telling.
This is getting surreal now. The answer I gave to you quoted.........IN FULL....a poem in another language. One that I found out later had a specific meaning. I enjoyed it no more when I learned that meaning.

I believe your claim was that I must necessarily enjoy it more when I have more understanding. I gave you a direct example where that doesn't hold.

Quote:
And yet you feel able to say that doing so whould not increase your enjoyment of it. Hopefully you can see the contradiction there.
No contradiction. Just an observation. As I live in the real world I cannot avoid learning more about music and musicians. Though I have no talent for it I can play various instruments (badly) read music (badly). None of this........and you really do have to trust me on this one.............none of this has increased my enjoyment of the music I choose to listen to. I'm not saying that it would not, I saying that it has not. From that real-life experience I have come to understand my own preferences for gaining maximal enjoyment.

Quote:
I struggle to see it too, and yet you seem to resist and attempt to do so.
That failure to accept it is your problem not mine. The fact that I experience music in the way that I do has absolutely no bearing on how you yourself experience it. We are different, that's all and we can both be right. I can see both sides of the coin. I have experienced areas of my life where knowledge and understanding has enhanced my enjoyment and others where it is irrelevant or even detrimental.

Now, either you trust my self-perception or not. Am I fooling myself about increasing my enjoyment of those other areas when I increased my understanding of them?

Quote:
"Ignorance is bliss" is not supposed to be a life goal.
Sure, but neither it corollary and completely wrong either. I freely admit that the greater part of my life is a quest for deeper understanding and education and to be able to pass that on to others.

Quote:
One can be honest and wrong.
Absolutely true, but why do I get the impression that you are only applying that on one direction?

Quote:
As for art though, no. It happens sometimes that I discover that a work I love is flawed, or even actually bad. Then, I have two options - enjoy it anyway, which is what I most commonly do
but hang on, did you not say.......

Quote:
learning more about it will necessarily enhance that enjoyment
Do you still hold to that? If so shouldn't your enjoyment of that work be increasing anyway?

Quote:
If you are satisfied with pure sensory enjoyment that's fine.
For music, absolutely. That's entirely my point.

Quote:
But I find the idea that a magician can still fool you even though you know how the trick is done to be vastly more enjoyable than if I didn't, to the extent that I struggle to see how anyone wouldn't.
I get that, it seems to be a common theme with you that you struggle to understand how people can enjoy things in a way that you don't.

Quote:
And if they're not fooling you then, they are a bad magician. Find and enjoy a better one.
If a magician showed me a trick that I hadn't seen before or performed it in a way so as to mask or subvert the typical techniques I would be massively impressed. My enquiring mind might well want to explore how it was done and indeed that has happened in the past and I have ended up unpicking it and understanding it. That knowledge brings some enjoyment of it's own but on viewing the trick again I cannot recapture that visceral wonder of being completely bamboozled. In some cases I choose not to enquire further so that I can continue to experience it on a level that gives my the greatest pleasure.

Heck, even with the music, films and art that I love I ration my exposure to them so as to maintain a level of freshness. I know that over-exposure will lead to a decrease in my pleasure even as it increases my knowledge and understanding. I know I'm not the only one to do so.
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  #234  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Thudlow Boink View Post
Since you bring up the magic analogy, let me use it to try to explain what I mean by understanding vs. not understanding music: Enjoying music on a purely emotional level, without understanding it, isn't so much like someone enjoying a magic show without having any idea how the magician does his tricks. It's more like someone enjoying a magic show without even realizing that the magician is doing tricks. Maybe you are enjoying the spectacle: the elaborate sets and costumes, the colors, the choreography—but if you never notice that something is happening which is seemingly impossible, you're not really understanding the show.
I see what you are saying but don't quite agree as the base level of understanding I bring to music and to a magic show, the level that I cannot avoid because I exist in a real world, is that a magician performs illusions and a musician attempts to express emotions and meaning through sound.

I already know and accept that both the musician and magician are attempting to play tricks on me and I can't pretend otherwise.
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  #235  
Old 08-27-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I see what you are saying but don't quite agree as the base level of understanding I bring to music and to a magic show, the level that I cannot avoid because I exist in a real world, is that a magician performs illusions and a musician attempts to express emotions and meaning through sound.

I already know and accept that both the musician and magician are attempting to play tricks on me and I can't pretend otherwise.
Out of curiosity, if you were to take a book or a movie or a TV show, whatever it is that you like, and you take your best example of it, your favorite book or movie or TV show, do you think that you would enjoy that piece of media if you only watched the last 1/3 of it?

Does it change the story, or your enjoyment of the story, to know more about the final scene of your favorite media, or would you have the same emotional enjoyment of it without intellectually knowing anything about the characters or what they are doing?
  #236  
Old 08-27-2019, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Out of curiosity, if you were to take a book or a movie or a TV show, whatever it is that you like, and you take your best example of it, your favorite book or movie or TV show, do you think that you would enjoy that piece of media if you only watched the last 1/3 of it?

Does it change the story, or your enjoyment of the story, to know more about the final scene of your favorite media, or would you have the same emotional enjoyment of it without intellectually knowing anything about the characters or what they are doing?
In general, I'd enjoy a work less if I experienced an incompleted version of it.
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  #237  
Old 08-27-2019, 02:57 PM
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EinsteinsHund put it very well. And to repeat what others said, I find classical music to be tedious, plodding, and boring. I like jangling guitars and a good drum beat, and music that gets my toes tapping and my head nodding. There's none of that in classical music. The closest thing to classical that I appreciate is Roll Over, Beethoven by the Electric Light Orchestra.
I find this revealing. I've heard many a person dislike classical for the reason of it not being "steady in rhythm"/ "not toetap inducing".

I'm the opposite: I dislike many pop songs because of the incessant unchanging rhythm. It's almost like being hypnotized driving on a straight desert highway.

There's also a lot of hate for prog music and I suspect it's rooted in the same reasoning of the person I've quoted; the rhythms change too much or change constantly.
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