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  #51  
Old 05-02-2020, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
A little? The statistics say otherwise.

I won't shop at Amazon (or Whole Foods), period, and this is from long before the strike. Not just because of worker rights, but also how they trap and then bleed all the thousands of smaller businesses that now have to be their subsidiaries.

Buying direct from those small online businesses will support the strikers and those businesses at the same time.

If you welcome your lizard overlords, go ahead and shop at Amazon.
I already had a negative view of Whole Foods, and it just got worse when it became part of Amazon.

Amazon is all of the things people used to say about Wal-Mart.
  #52  
Old 05-02-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
That article called it "the latest" in a series of anti-union actions
I read the article in question.

"Union-busting" is a pejorative term whose meaning is diminished when it's applied to any company action intended to discourage workers from forming/joining a union, including memos and briefings by management.

I do hope the NLRB is investigating the "playful" quinoa-tossing by the fired employee.
  #53  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
I read the article in question.

"Union-busting" is a pejorative term whose meaning is diminished when it's applied to any company action intended to discourage workers from forming/joining a union, including memos and briefings by management.

I do hope the NLRB is investigating the "playful" quinoa-tossing by the fired employee.
Mandatory meetings with employees in which anti-union propaganda is distributed is classic union-busting. You claim that the meaning is diminished by including some of the most popular anti-union tactics is, to say the least, suspect.

Had the quinoa-tosser been fired after tossing quinoa, it wouldn't be newsworthy. He was fired after trying to organize workers.
  #54  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
This is the first time I'm hearing "scab" with a negative connotation. I wasn't aware people actually thought other people shouldn't take available jobs. And it's definitely the first time I've heard it said that customers ought to care about the management-labor relationship. That's definitely a baffling assertion. I can't fathom how it's any of my business or any of my concern as a customer how well compensated the employees are. It seems to me you're implying I'm supposed to side with the striking employees because...because....because they're striking and that's supposed to be a good thing? Because they say they deserve better pay so therefore they must?
Scab has never been a positive thing. Ignoring any feelings about any particular picket line, if you take a job at a place with workers on strike, you take away their bargaining ability.
If I treat my workers like garbage and pay them nothing so they strike, they're counting on me not being able to fire them. If I can bring in scabs, I have no use for the people that don't want to work.

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It's like saying I need to support the home team in the championship game of a sport I don't watch between two teams I've never heard of.
It's more like finding a way to help the opposing team win. Sure, you might not really care, but the people in your community might be annoyed with you if they find out you bought the away team lots of fancy training equipment.
  #55  
Old 05-02-2020, 10:37 AM
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Or maybe it's a bad analogy because it isn't a fucking game.
  #56  
Old 05-02-2020, 01:45 PM
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Or maybe it's a bad analogy because it isn't a fucking game.
Eck-fucking-zactly.

Chessic Sense is a bit of a sociopath. He's never shown the slightest inclination to give a fuck about his fellow human beings. So his bafflement isn't remarkable here, any more than a blind person who says, "I can't see the painting" is remarkable. If he sees folks' health and safety as a sports thing, that's a commentary on his deep failure, not on the situation.
  #57  
Old 05-02-2020, 07:20 PM
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Chessic Sense is a bit of a sociopath. He's never shown the slightest inclination to give a fuck about his fellow human beings.
To be fair, he needs his fellow human beings so that he can feel superior to someone. I'm betting Jamal still has a job.
  #58  
Old 05-02-2020, 09:32 PM
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Good to see workers with a little spine, even in a modest action like this.
It takes courage to do what they're doing, which is to potentially give up a source of income that they probably need. It took courage to do what they were doing, which is serving the public in a time of a deadly pandemic.

I tip my hat to them and hope that that more people will just stop drinking the oligarch kool-aid.
  #59  
Old 05-03-2020, 04:39 AM
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What a lot of people seem to want instead is for them to close the facility as Toyota (the other big local employer) did, which would let them qualify for unemployment benefits while staying home.
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Your theory that they're just lazy assholes looking for paid time off? Not buying it.
And well you shouldn't buy it - that's nothing like what I wrote above.
  #60  
Old 05-03-2020, 10:08 AM
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The real Casey Jones was not murdered. He died in a railway accident. A freight train hauling corn was stopped on the tracks where it wasn't supposed to be. Casey told his assistant to jump to safety before the crash and laid on the brake to minimize danger to others around. His engine ran off the tracks when it crashed into the corn car and he got killed. He was the only fatality. There was no strike on. It was an accident. Casey Jones heroically sacrificed his life to try to protect others.

Song lyrics say all kinds of untrue crap about him, including something about cocaine! He didn't use cocaine either.
Casey Jones Union Scab. It is on my Smithsonian Folkways disc.

Quote:
Casey Jones - Union Scab youtube video

The Workers on the S. P. line to strike sent out a call;
But Casey Jones, the engineer, he wouldn't strike at all;
His boiler it was leaking, and its drivers on the bum,
And his engine and its bearings, they were all out of plumb.

Casey Jones kept his junk pile running;
Casey Jones was working double time;
Casey Jones got a wooden medal,
For being good and faithful on the S. P. line.

The workers said to Casey: "Won't you help us win this strike?"
But Casey said: "Let me alone, you'd better take a hike."
Then some one put a bunch of railroad ties across the track,
And Casey hit the river bottom with an awful crack.

Casey Jones hit the river bottom;
Casey Jones broke his blessed spine;
Casey Jones was an Angelino,
He took a trip to heaven on the S. P. line.

When Casey Jones got up to heaven, to the Pearly Gate,
He said: "I'm Casey Jones, the guy that pulled the S. P. freight."
"You're just the man," said Peter, "our musicians went on strike;
You can get a job a-scabbing any time you like."

Casey Jones got up to heaven;
Casey Jones was doing mighty fine;
Casey Jones went scabbing on the angels,
Just like he did to workers of the S. P. line.

They got together, and they said it wasn't fair,
For Casey Jones to go around a-scabbing everywhere.
The Angels' Union No. 23, they sure were there,
And they promptly fired Casey down the Golden Stairs.

Casey Jones went to Hell a-flying;
"Casey Jones," the Devil said, "Oh fine:
Casey Jones, get busy shovelling sulphur;
That's what you get for scabbing on the S. P. Line."
I know there is a different non-union version, I believe I mentioned it in my original post. I commented that the union version has a murder within it. I can not condone murder or even physical violence towards someone who is simply trying to provide for their family. It is as upsetting to me as the asshats in a livejournal group I was a member of telling me that they hoped my husband would die on his military deployment simply because he was in the military.
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  #61  
Old 05-03-2020, 02:32 PM
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Really? If you're not just being disingenuous, I gotta color myself more than a little shocked. I thought everyone knew( generally )what a "scab" was and why it was considered negative. Even the people who thoroughly disagree with the concept.

But then I have no idea how old you are or how/where you were brought up. Anyone of my generation( Gen X )who lived in the Rust Belt and wasn't from a fairly upper-class background should have been exposed to the idea.
It's not new or surprising that some people dislike scabs. It's that the word itself is supposed to be an insult. That's new to me. Some people really hate the Catholic church and therefore hate priests. But the word priest itself isn't pejorative.

So when the OP says "Remember that if you cross a picket line you're a fucking scab," it sounds to me like "Remember that if you graduate seminary and take Holy Orders you're a fucking priest." I'm like "yeah, that's...kinda the definition of the word."

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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
How far do you take that lack of understanding? If you found out that your seafood supplier was selling fish caught by slaves, would you be baffled at customers who stopped buying that fish?
Slavery is immoral and illegal. That's something one is compelled to oppose. A labor dispute isn't immoral or illegal. I'm not compelled to support one side or the other, any more than I'm compelled to support your or your parents when you're in some family tiff with them.

How am I supposed to support the workers' quest for higher pay when I don't even know what they make in the first place?

[QUOTE=Broomstick;22282333]Really? I remember my parents wouldn't cross pick lines to patronize businesses with strikers back in the early 1970's

I didn't say they couldn't care or wouldn't care. I said this is the first time I'm hearing they ought to care. Like they should be compelled to pick a side.

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Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Sure, why would you care whether or not other human beings are treated humanely?
Why am I to believe they're being treated inhumanely in the first place? When teachers strike in a state halfway across the country, how am I expected to know the first thing about their workplace situation? When athletes strike/lockout while negotiating a new collective bargaining agreement, am I supposed to argue for how many games they play a season or what roolie contracts should have as a minimum?

[QUOTE=Joey P;22282499]Scab has never been a positive thing. Ignoring any feelings about any particular picket line, if you take a job at a place with workers on strike, you take away their bargaining ability.

Right, but if we're "ignoring any feelings about any particular picket line," then we're also, by force, ignoring any feelings about if you take away their bargaining ability. For scab to be negative, you have to assume we do in fact care about the particular picket line.

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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
If I treat my workers like garbage and pay them nothing so they strike, they're counting on me not being able to fire them. If I can bring in scabs, I have no use for the people that don't want to work.
Right. So? Sucks for those workers. Great for the scabs. There's a winner, there's a loser. What's your point? I'm not being rhetorical here; I feel like your post is one sentence too short.

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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
It's more like finding a way to help the opposing team win. Sure, you might not really care, but the people in your community might be annoyed with you if they find out you bought the away team lots of fancy training equipment.
You're missing the point of the analogy. The point is there is no opposing team because there is no my-team. The home team isn't even from my state. Either team could be the opposing team. Or both could. I have no idea what the rules of the sport are.
  #62  
Old 05-03-2020, 04:06 PM
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What kind of danger is posed to these store employees? Here's one:
A town in Oklahoma mandated that face masks be worn by customers in stores. Certain large foreheadded customers who refused to wear masks started making threats against store employees. The city's response? "Oh, OK, you don't have to wear the masks after all, jeez."
"A city in Oklahoma that had required everyone to wear a face mask when going inside a business has decided to change that rule after store employees were threatened with violence by people who refused to cover their nose and mouth. “In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse,” Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said in a statement. One of those involved a threat using a firearm despite “clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19.”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...t-threats.html


So, I guess, fuck the safety of the stre employees. God damn, right wingers, you are shit on top of shit, filled with shit and encrusted with an outer layer of shit.
Go ahead, tell me these weren't right wingers. And fuck off while you're at it.
  #63  
Old 05-03-2020, 04:49 PM
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Okalahoma. Gee, I wonder who carried that state in the 2016 election. Not really; there's no doubt in my mind.
  #64  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:21 AM
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It's that the word itself is supposed to be an insult. That's new to me.
You couldn't figure out that "scab" is a pejorative all on your own?

That's really remarkably dim of you.
  #65  
Old 05-04-2020, 04:42 AM
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Why am I to believe they're being treated inhumanely in the first place? When teachers strike in a state halfway across the country, how am I expected to know the first thing about their workplace situation?
Some of us maintain some knowledge of the world around us and how other people are treated. It's even easier to do these days than in prior generations.

Clearly, you are a child of privilege. Those people who aren't are much more aware that the people exploiting their neighbors today may be exploiting them much more directly tomorrow.
  #66  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:26 AM
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When teachers strike in a state halfway across the country, how am I expected to know the first thing about their workplace situation?
Google is your motherfucking friend.
  #67  
Old 05-04-2020, 07:49 AM
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Hats off to Dopers, especially Left Hand of Darkness who retain faith in meaningful social justice. Perhaps there still is hope for America.

Sorry that I have little to offer in the way of help or even advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
It's not new or surprising that some people dislike scabs. It's that the word itself is supposed to be an insult. That's new to me....

Slavery is immoral and illegal. That's something one is compelled to oppose. A labor dispute isn't immoral or illegal. I'm not compelled to support one side or the other, ...
In today's America, many people are grateful even for low-paying jobs. When they complain, it's usually a good guess that they really are mistreated.

I'm surprised that you didn't know "scab" was pejorative. Is English your first language?

Quote:
[By about 1450, 'scab' had] the common definition we know today, a hard crust that forms over a wound.

By the 1500s, it had taken on a secondary meaning in England. As a slang insult for a “mean, low, ‘scurvy’ fellow; a rascal, scoundrel,” it drew a connection between that person and scabs -- and the diseases and sores that lead to them (syphilis, for example) -- and, by extension, bad habits and unclean lifestyles.

By the late 1700s, laborers adopted the insult to refer to workmen who wouldn't join a strike, a union, or take part in organized labor. One of the earliest known recordings is from 1777: “the Conflict would not been [sic] so sharp had not there been so many dirty Scabs; no Doubt but timely Notice will be taken of them." Early in the next century, "scab" [was] applied specifically to workers who crossed picket lines to take the place of striking workers ...

In Household Words, Stephanie Smith draws a clear line from the one definition to the other:
From blemish … to strikebreaker, the history of the word scab … shows a displacement of meaning from the visceral or physical to the moral register … Just as a scab is a physical lesion, the strikebreaking scab disfigures the social body of labor—both the solidarity of workers and the dignity of work.
Smith also points out that the term has mellowed some ... Its power seems to have diminished a bit since the days when a piece of union literature, generally attributed to author Jack London, said:
"After God finished the rattlesnake, the toad, the vampire, He had some awful substance left with which He made a scab … When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the Devil shuts the gates of Hell to keep him out. No man has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with."
They don't make insults quite like that anymore.
  #68  
Old 05-04-2020, 12:29 PM
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I went in and got my $40/hr with little exertion and great social distancing. My kids need to eat. Pit me. I don't give a fuck.
  #69  
Old 05-04-2020, 01:08 PM
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Google is your motherfucking friend.
You can't Google how much they motherfucking make or what their motherfucking healthcare plans cost or how many motherfucking sick days they get, nor do I motherfucking care to. Guess I'm supposed to care about the NFL collective bargaining agreement, the Writers Guild's contracts, or Verizon's employment benefits.

Quote:
According to Verizon, employees received $130,000 a year in wages and benefits. Union leaders claimed that the average total was $74,000 a year. Verizon offered workers a 7.5 percent salary increase. Union leaders responded by stating that the increase would be negated because workers would have to pay an increased amount for deductibles and premiums, prescriptions, and co-pays
Scintillating! I'm riveted! Tell me more!


Look, I get it. You're so far to the left that you think all workers are exploited proletariat, so you don't bother to look any closer at any details, even when a strike is just a mundane fight over a paltry amount. You love a picket line, any picket line, and it doesn't matter whose.
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Old 05-04-2020, 01:11 PM
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I went in and got my $40/hr with little exertion and great social distancing. My kids need to eat. Pit me. I don't give a fuck.
How dare you think about your family at a time like this.
  #71  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:25 PM
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I went in and got my $40/hr with little exertion and great social distancing. My kids need to eat. Pit me. I don't give a fuck.
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Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
How dare you think about your family at a time like this.
Actually, I DO sort of hate that line, though I think actual liberal was half-joking.

People tend to throw out "for my kids/family" when they want to rationalize screwing over someone else's kids/family. Last Week Tonight had a clip of Alex Jones talking about when the apocalypse comes in a few years, he'll kill his neighbors and feed them to his kids because "I'm not gonna let my daughters starve!" Okay. But if his neighbor thinks the same way where are we?
  #72  
Old 05-04-2020, 03:31 PM
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That fucking psycho is a dad?
  #73  
Old 05-04-2020, 11:38 PM
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That fucking psycho is a dad?
Don't forget that Jones defended himself in a lawsuit by saying that his whole psycho act is a sham, comedy. Yes, this is the same psycho-comedian that POTUS telephoned regularly for advice on policy.
  #74  
Old 05-05-2020, 12:29 AM
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Didn’t his lawyers say that, but he said on the stand that he was genuine, or something like that?

Anyway, regardless of what actualliberal did/said, maybe anyone who took that point of view could take a moment to ponder the system that made strike breaking necessary, from the origins of the strike to the threat of starvation that led the scabs, and feel the need to do something about it.
  #75  
Old 05-05-2020, 10:10 AM
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You can't Google how much they motherfucking make or what their motherfucking healthcare plans cost or how many motherfucking sick days they get, nor do I motherfucking care to.
Only that last part is true. You're an apathetic asshole, news at eleven.
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Old 05-05-2020, 01:06 PM
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Only that last part is true. You're an apathetic asshole, news at eleven.
Oh, yeah, I'm such an asshole because I'd never heard an esoteric word used with the connotation it's been used here. It's taken me all these years to hear a hyper-specific word with that exact context, I'm such a terrible person.

Behold the aging hippy, ladies and gentlemen. He demands your allegiance in his crusade du jour and if you're not on board, you're an asshole. He shouldn't even have to lift a finger to convince you of the logic of his position, such as there is one. His only attempt is "Believe my ideology now, or Google things until you do, or else you're an asshole." I can feel the pathos from here.

You're doing a great job, LHOD. Keep up the good work.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:04 PM
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What kind of danger is posed to these store employees? Here's one:
A town in Oklahoma mandated that face masks be worn by customers in stores. Certain large foreheadded customers who refused to wear masks started making threats against store employees. The city's response? "Oh, OK, you don't have to wear the masks after all, jeez."
"A city in Oklahoma that had required everyone to wear a face mask when going inside a business has decided to change that rule after store employees were threatened with violence by people who refused to cover their nose and mouth. “In the short time beginning on May 1, 2020, that face coverings have been required for entry into stores/restaurants, store employees have been threatened with physical violence and showered with verbal abuse,” Stillwater City Manager Norman McNickle said in a statement. One of those involved a threat using a firearm despite “clear medical evidence that face coverings helps contain the spread of COVID-19.”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...t-threats.html


So, I guess, fuck the safety of the stre employees. God damn, right wingers, you are shit on top of shit, filled with shit and encrusted with an outer layer of shit.
Go ahead, tell me these weren't right wingers. And fuck off while you're at it.
Wonder what the mouth breathers would do if the manager went hard line and opted to close down, posting something about keeping his workers safe from people refusing to wear masks [fully intending to reopen in a week or something once his point had been gotten across. Didn't read the article, but if it was a small town like Caledonia NY with 1 whole IGA for groceries, if the IGA shut down people would be shit out of luck for getting groceries. Not to say it is a small town, but there are people who really do not leave town at all - my brother went away to college, came back and lived here the rest of his life [until I had the ambulance haul him to Rochester when he stopped breathing ...] If the IGA shut down, there would be panic in the streets. Though our town is very careful to mask and glove up, haven't heard anybody complaining about it. We had a lovely day last week with everybody hanging out in the drive ways yelling at each other over picnic lunches =) [my street has all of 10 houses on it and is a couple hundred feet long.]
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  #78  
Old 05-06-2020, 06:51 AM
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Oh, yeah, I'm such an asshole because I'd never heard an esoteric word used with the connotation it's been used here. It's taken me all these years to hear a hyper-specific word with that exact context, I'm such a terrible person.
Both parts are true--you were unable to figure out that "scab" is not a term of endearment, and you're fucking awful--but they're not related.
Quote:
Behold the aging hippy, ladies and gentlemen. He demands your allegiance in his crusade du jour and if you're not on board, you're an asshole. He shouldn't even have to lift a finger to convince you of the logic of his position, such as there is one. His only attempt is "Believe my ideology now, or Google things until you do, or else you're an asshole." I can feel the pathos from here.

You're doing a great job, LHOD. Keep up the good work.
Why thanks, I am! Over the last couple of years, I've helped our union local increase membership by an astonishing 50%, and I've gotten folks to rallies, and I've helped get new statewide leadership in place, and we've helped break the back of the Republican supermajority in our state house. I'm pretty proud of my work.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 05-06-2020 at 06:54 AM.
  #79  
Old 05-06-2020, 06:53 AM
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But I came back to this thread, not to deal with Chessic's weird petulance, but to post a criticism of Amazon from an unexpected source:
Quote:
Tim Bray, a well known senior engineer and Vice President at Amazon has “quit in dismay” because Amazon has been “firing whistleblowers who were making noise about warehouse employees frightened of Covid-19.” In an open letter on his website, Bray, who has worked at the company for nearly six years, called the company “chickenshit” for firing and disparaging employees who have organized protests. He also said the firings are "designed to create a climate of fear."
This is a dude with a lot to lose and nothing personal to gain through a public resignation and bridge burning.
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Old 05-06-2020, 07:43 AM
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So, I guess, fuck the safety of the stre employees. God damn, right wingers, you are shit on top of shit, filled with shit and encrusted with an outer layer of shit.

Go ahead, tell me these weren't right wingers. And fuck off while you're at it.
I was vilified for saying it, but I feel even more right about it than I did a few weeks ago: I hope coronavirus hits shit kicker land hard so that they can see up close the consequences of their stupidity. It's the only way people are going to get it and change for the better.

Obviously, if we could learn in a less painful way, that would be ideal and preferable to my 'solution'. But humans are stupid anyway, and right wingers are particularly slow.

It might cruel to say the above, but the way I look at it, it's about which one of us gets out of this alive: those of us who genuinely try to be good citizens out of respect for our neighbors, essential employees, first responders, and healthcare workers, or backwoods shit-ass scumbags who want to make a political statement about the preservation of their own little fucked up version of what America should be.
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