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Old 05-19-2020, 07:31 PM
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Plaintiff in Roe v. Wade, says she was paid by right-wing groups to publicly turn against abortion


I don't have a debate for this. MPSIMS seemed too innocent for this so...here it is.

Why am I not surprised?

Conservatives literally need to manufacture outrage otherwise they've got nothing except the colossal assholes they are staring back at them in the mirror.

Quote:
Norma McCorvey, the plaintiff in the landmark Supreme Court case Roe v. Wade, says in the forthcoming documentary "AKA Jane Roe" that she was paid a significant amount of money to promote antiabortion causes.

SOURCE: https://www.businessinsider.com/norm...bortion-2020-5
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:52 PM
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To me, that stance always reeked of insincerity. Those groups also could have done more to reduce the number of abortions by financing birth control and prenatal care than by doing this.
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Old 05-19-2020, 07:53 PM
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Wow. Very interesting article! I'd like to see a list of all the donors to her and Operation Save America.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:27 PM
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If the documentary has, um, solid documentation of improper payments (i.e. money received prior to her "conversion"), then it's a damning commentary on the ethics of anti-abortion rights advocates.

If it's basically her say-so, then I'm not impressed. Though she had an important historical role, McCorvey's credibility has suffered from her about-faces.

In general, I'm dubious about the veracity of deathbed renunciations.
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:35 PM
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...Though she had an important historical role, McCorvey's credibility has suffered from her about-faces.

In general, I'm dubious about the veracity of deathbed renunciations.
So, you are fine with her veracity prior to all this but doubt a deathbed confession?

Doesn't the law give special consideration to deathbed confessions/declarations with the notion being the person really has no reason to lie at that point and are, maybe, trying to unburden their soul? (or something like that...I really don't know why they give it special consideration)
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Old 05-19-2020, 08:52 PM
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So, you are fine with her veracity prior to all this but doubt a deathbed confession?
I didn't see her "finding God" and turning against her Roe v. Wade backers as a big deal, and suspected at the time that her conversion had a lot to do with seeking the attention that she felt abortion rights supporters were no longer giving her. Is her latest claim another cry for attention?

People tend to give undue credence to those who dramatically reverse their views on controversial subjects. There's a one-time fervent anti-GMOer of the crop-vandalizing persuasion who switched to being an outspoken supporter of genetic modification technology. That's nice, but the conversion doesn't lend him super credibility.

I'll wait to see McCorvey's documentation before leaping with glee.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:02 PM
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Damn. I don't know what to think, but what a difficult, sad, and complicated life she had.

She would have been five years younger when she died than my parents are now, and she looks about twenty years older
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:20 PM
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I didn't see her "finding God" and turning against her Roe v. Wade backers as a big deal, and suspected at the time that her conversion had a lot to do with seeking the attention that she felt abortion rights supporters were no longer giving her. Is her latest claim another cry for attention?
I'm gonna go with "no" on this since she has been dead for three years and I don't think her health was very good when she made these statements.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:30 PM
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Damn. I don't know what to think, but what a difficult, sad, and complicated life she had.
Yeah, but she was just living with her choices and she set aside morality for money. I don't pity her all that much.

And I was today years old when I realized your username is not Fretful Porcupine.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:51 PM
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I'm gonna go with "no" on this since she has been dead for three years and I don't think her health was very good when she made these statements.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:53 PM
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Always hoped that I'd be an Apostle
Knew that I would make it if I tried
Then when we retire we can write the Gospels
So they'll all still talk about us when we've died
She was already immortalized by virtue of the Roe v. Wade case.

Anything she did after is a footnote at best.

Put another way, she didn't have to do anything at all to be talked about after her death.
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:14 PM
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If the documentary has, um, solid documentation of improper payments (i.e. money received prior to her "conversion"), then it's a damning commentary on the ethics of anti-abortion rights advocates.
Ok...


Quote:
Sweeney shows the video of McCorvey’s confession to her friends and acquaintances on the pro-abortion and anti-abortion sides, including pro-choice activist Charlotte Taft who, on the verge of tears, says, “That just really hurts because it’s big stakes. It’s just really big stakes.”

Reverend Schenck, the much more reasonable of the two evangelical leaders featured in the film, also watches the confession and is taken aback. But he’s not surprised, and easily corroborates, saying, “I had never heard her say anything like this… But I knew what we were doing. And there were times when I was sure she knew. And I wondered, Is she playing us? What I didn’t have the guts to say was, because I know damn well we’re playing her.”

Reverend Schenck admits that McCorvey was “a target,” a “needy” person in need of love and protection, and that “as clergy,” people like Schenck and Benham were “used to those personalities” and thus easily able to exploit her weaknesses. He also confirms that she was “coached on what to say” in her anti-abortion speeches. Benham denies McCorvey was paid; Schenck insists she was, saying that “at a few points, she was actually on the payroll, as it were.” AKA Jane Roe finds documents disclosing at least $456,911 in “benevolent gifts” from the anti-abortion movement to McCorvey.

SOURCE: https://www.thedailybeast.com/jane-r...hristian-right
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2020, 12:07 AM
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And I was today years old when I realized your username is not Fretful Porcupine.
(blink blink)

(looks at the user name)

!!!!
  #14  
Old 05-20-2020, 12:35 AM
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So, you are fine with her veracity prior to all this but doubt a deathbed confession?

Doesn't the law give special consideration to deathbed confessions/declarations with the notion being the person really has no reason to lie at that point and are, maybe, trying to unburden their soul? (or something like that...I really don't know why they give it special consideration)
The idea was that no one who was about to meet their maker would do so with the stain of a very recent lie for which they had had no time to repent. So this idea obviously goes back to a time when you could presume someone believed in G-d, and also to a time when Catholic sensibilities prevailed.

Even fairly recently, according to a lawyer I know "dying declarations" (the legal term for "deathbed confessions," and other quoted statements admitted as exempted from hearsay rules) have to be made by a person who knows he is dying, and if the opposing side can bring in someone who can produce convincing evidence that the person wasn't aware of the fact that he was dying, the final things he said won't be admitted into evidence as "dying declarations."

So they are still given special legal status.

I sort of wonder, though, if it's not a *wink-wink* because there's no other way to get a dying person's testimony admitted if it wasn't recorded-- and even then, it might be dicey, since you can't cross-examine a recording. I have a cousin who is a prosecutor in Chicago. I should ask him about it.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:22 AM
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And I was today years old when I realized your username is not Fretful Porcupine.
It’s a variant.

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Make thy two eyes, like stars, start from their spheres,
Thy knotted and combined locks to part,
And each particular hair stand on end,
Like quills upon the fretful porpentine.
Thanks heavens for Bertie Wooster, to whom I owe my classical education.
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  #16  
Old 05-20-2020, 04:54 AM
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....

And I was today years old when I realized your username is not Fretful Porcupine.
Holy crap!

To the OP, I guess that sleazeball with the crappy editing skills who tried to set up Mueller and Fauci wasn't the first conservative sleazeball.
  #17  
Old 05-20-2020, 09:41 AM
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She was already immortalized by virtue of the Roe v. Wade case.

Anything she did after is a footnote at best.
Your link quotes Reverend Schenck describing her as "a "needy" person in need of love and protection". Evidently she also had a great need for attention, even near the end of her life.

Remember that McCorvey did not have the greatest reputation for veracity. From her Wikipedia bio:

"McCorvey revealed herself to the press as being "Jane Roe" soon after the decision was reached, stating that she had sought an abortion because she was unemployable and greatly depressed. In 1983, McCorvey told the press that she had been raped. In 1987, she said the rape claim was untrue...
In 1994, McCorvey's autobiography, I Am Roe, was published. At a signing of I Am Roe, McCorvey was befriended by Flip Benham, an evangelical minister and the national director of anti-abortion organization Operation Rescue. She converted to Christianity and was baptized on August 8, 1995, by Benham, in a Dallas, Texas, backyard swimming pool, an event that was filmed for national television. Two days later, she announced that she had quit her job at an abortion clinic and had become an advocate of Operation Rescue's campaign to make abortion illegal. She voiced remorse for her part in the Supreme Court decision and said she had been a pawn of abortion activists.

McCorvey's second book, Won by Love, described her religious conversion and was published in 1998. In the book, she said that her change of heart occurred in 1995, when she saw a fetal development poster in an Operation Rescue office."


OK, so maybe the upcoming video documents a quid pro quo in which she got money then converted to anti-abortion rights activism. Or it shows her being paid over a period of time to keep her from feeling too needy and flipping back to the pro-abortion rights side. Could someone construe her job at an abortion clinic as "payment" for her services during Roe v. Wade? (rest assured, someone will).

I can understand the documentary's producer(s) sitting on this supposed bombshell for over three years and then trying to make a splash in time for the 2020 Presidential election. If it has the goods and the impact is as hoped, then fine.

I suspect though that if she'd dramatically revealed payments from pro-abortion rights advocates to keep her loyal during the Roe v. Wade era and the charges were trundled out during a critical election campaign, pro-choicers would be crying foul/conspiracy etc.

Let's see the evidence first.
  #18  
Old 05-20-2020, 10:28 AM
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If the documentary has, um, solid documentation of improper payments (i.e. money received prior to her "conversion"), then it's a damning commentary on the ethics of anti-abortion rights advocates.
As if ethics beyond their primary goal at all cost to womens' health and reproductive rights has ever been an issue with the anti-abortion crowd? These are people who deny fundamental science, lie about how and when procedures are performed, attempt to mislead, deceive, and intimidate women seeking an abortion, and occasionally bomb clinics and attack doctors in pursuit of their "pro-life" agenda.

Stranger
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Old 05-20-2020, 10:49 AM
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Why does it even matter? Why should this one individual's views on abortion be held as any more significant than any of the other 300 million individuals in this country?
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:47 PM
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Why does it even matter? Why should this one individual's views on abortion be held as any more significant than any of the other 300 million individuals in this country?
I have the same reaction. And it's the same reaction I had whenever previously confronted with the fact that "the original Jane Roe says now that she'd never have an abortion". So what? It's not like she was the only potential plaintiff they could have found at the time.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:57 PM
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Why does it even matter? Why should this one individual's views on abortion be held as any more significant than any of the other 300 million individuals in this country?
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I have the same reaction. And it's the same reaction I had whenever previously confronted with the fact that "the original Jane Roe says now that she'd never have an abortion". So what? It's not like she was the only potential plaintiff they could have found at the time.
It's the optics, not the substance, and you know it. Her case is the one that set the precedent, so if she changes her mind on it, that makes it news. Substantively, either change of mind doesn't change whether Roe v Wade was decided correctly, but the first flip could possibly be used to change the minds of people who waver on the topic. The anti-abortion movement certainly tried to use it that way.

And, of course, we are now facing a packed right-wing Supreme Court with a lot of states that were hoping to use that change of heart as one more mote of evidence to get the decision reversed on a new case. At least they can't do that now.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:11 PM
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So what if she changed her mind? Wasn't the point that she was free to choose for herself?
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  #23  
Old 05-20-2020, 01:11 PM
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If the documentary has, um, solid documentation of improper payments (i.e. money received prior to her "conversion"), then it's a damning commentary on the ethics of anti-abortion rights advocates.

Actually, not really. Its just another chit added to the giant pile of evidence on the lack of ethics of the anti-abortion rights advocates. Which goes from from harassing and lying to women when they are at their most vulnerable, forcing doctors to lie on their behalf, endangering women's lives all the way up to outright murder.

Nothing here that we didn't already know.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:47 PM
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It’s a variant.



Thanks heavens for Bertie Wooster, to whom I owe my classical education.
For a long time, I took your name to be Forgetful Porcupine.

Which could be painful.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:20 PM
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Why does it even matter? Why should this one individual's views on abortion be held as any more significant than any of the other 300 million individuals in this country?
Her views dont matter that much. The fact that GOP operatives bribed her to publically change her views - that matters. Like the fact that they also bribed a woman to claim Dr Fauci raped her.

In other words, the Religious Right and GOP are bribing people to lie. This election is gonna be super dirty.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:27 PM
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  #27  
Old 05-20-2020, 03:22 PM
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For a long time, I took your name to be Forgetful Porcupine.

Which could be painful.
Now that I have attained absent-minded professor status, it's pretty much accurate
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:45 PM
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Yes, I know that her opinion changes the optics of the issue. And I know that, in the real world, optics like that does matter. But my point is that it shouldn't.
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Old 05-20-2020, 04:22 PM
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It’s a variant.



Thanks heavens for Bertie Wooster, to whom I owe my classical education.
Jeeves quoted (some of) these lines to Bertie in the book Joy in the Morning. I just read it last week!
  #30  
Old 05-21-2020, 01:29 PM
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Yes, I know that her opinion changes the optics of the issue. And I know that, in the real world, optics like that does matter. But my point is that it shouldn't.
As DrDeth pointed up a few posts up, the real news is the religious right paying off someone to push their narrative.

And yeah, we all wish for a world where the "optics" don't matter. But that seems a fantasy land these days. As long as the optics matter then we need to deal with it...maddening as it is.
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Old 05-21-2020, 02:51 PM
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Especially given that people who think that abortion is wrong tend to believe in a book that says that liars get sent to hell. It's more evidence to me that a lot of "Christians" worship their own created "pro-life" idol rather than follow their own stated beliefs.
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Old 05-21-2020, 05:28 PM
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Jeeves quoted (some of) these lines to Bertie in the book Joy in the Morning. I just read it last week!
Joy in the Morning is one of the best Jeeves & Bertie books of all, in my opinion. Excerpt Bertie should have gone with the alternative title and called it The Steeple Bumpleigh Horror.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2020, 03:16 AM
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So what if she changed her mind? Wasn't the point that she was free to choose for herself?
It wasn't just that she changed her own mind. (If she really did). And yes, she was free to choose, but she was a shill for people who were trying to prevent other women from having that freedom. THAT is why people are criticizing her.

Either way, she's a weasel.
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