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  #251  
Old 05-26-2020, 02:22 PM
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I remember some SF story about a immortal neanderthal?- anyway when asked about important historic events and personages, he said he never met any and wasnt around for any of them, except maybe a plague.
Are you sure it was a Neanderthal and not... just some guy? Because then it sounds like it could be The Man From Earth. But then he was at least one notable past individual himself, so... *shrug*.
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Old 05-26-2020, 02:25 PM
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Are you sure it was a Neanderthal and not... just some guy? Because then it sounds like it could be The Man From Earth. But then he was at least one notable past individual himself, so... *shrug*.
No, that's not the one, but that is interesting.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:04 PM
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I remember some SF story about a immortal neanderthal?- anyway when asked about important historic events and personages, he said he never met any and wasnt around for any of them, except maybe a plague.
L. Sprague DeCamps's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gnarly_Man
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:38 PM
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Related to the Time Travel to Significant Dates trope is Your Past Life is a Significant Person.

Luckily, it's a trope that you see a lot less of these days, but as a kid I remember a lot of "past life regression" (often using hypnotism) on TV. As well as in real life, used by psycho-babble charlatans.

We used to laugh at how many ordinary housewives were Joan of Arc or Cleopatra, or at least in the court of a French king. NO ONE regressed to the 1300s and discovered they were "Mary of the Bog, peat peddler of Lower Nemobbin".
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:46 PM
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Outrunning an explosion. Not gonna happen.
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Old 05-26-2020, 03:50 PM
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That's it!

I-ah-don't suppose you could give me the real story of RichardIII and the princes in the Tower?""Why should I? I was just a poor blacksmith or farmer o rsomething most of the time. I didn't go around with the big shots. I gave up all my ideas of ambition a long time before that. I had to,being so different from other people. As far as I can remember, the only real king I ever got a good look at was Charlemagne, when he made a speech in Paris one day. He was just a big tall man with SantaClaus whiskers and a squeaky voice."
  #257  
Old 05-26-2020, 03:56 PM
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Related to the Time Travel to Significant Dates trope is Your Past Life is a Significant Person.

Luckily, it's a trope that you see a lot less of these days, but as a kid I remember a lot of "past life regression" (often using hypnotism) on TV. As well as in real life, used by psycho-babble charlatans.

We used to laugh at how many ordinary housewives were Joan of Arc or Cleopatra, or at least in the court of a French king. NO ONE regressed to the 1300s and discovered they were "Mary of the Bog, peat peddler of Lower Nemobbin".
Oddly, my parents were friends of a woman who did that. She claimed I was a number of slightly important people, but no one who was in any way famous- A member of the Witan and Harold's army in 1066, a backbencher senator in late Republican Rome,a London DI during Victorian times, a German Army Doctor in WW2- sent to the Russian front due to a vague connection to the plot vs Hitler, and so forth.

She said that was my destiny, to always be slightly important but never majorly so. Since I am slightly noted now IRL, I guess so.
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Old 05-26-2020, 04:02 PM
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A corollary to Time Travel to Significant Dates: If the heroes don't travel to a significant date, they will meet significant people. In the TNG episode "Time's Arrow" Data travels to San Francisco on August 11, 1893 according to Wikipedia. As far as I know that's not a particularly important date in San Francisco's history. But then while there he just coincidentally happens to meet Jack London and Mark Twain.
  #259  
Old 05-26-2020, 05:54 PM
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Another is impossible bird calls. Foley editors love to fill outdoor audio with birds, uncaring that every species has a unique voice and limited range. The common loon never calls in migration through Louisiana swamps, but they,re in every bayou film.
And every desolate landscape has the scream of a Red-tailed Hawk in the background. It's the Wilhelm Scream of bird calls.

It used to be that every jungle movie featured an Australian Laughing Kookaburra. But now they've branched out and started to use the Amazonian Screaming Piha.

I've seen a couple of "mistakes" that I think might have been deliberate. A.I. Artificial Intelligence takes place in a future global-warming world. A forest scene in the central US features a Screaming Piha in the background, appropriate for the new climate.

In Charlie's Angels, they figure out exactly where a kidnapped Bosley is being held by hearing the call of a Pygmy Nuthatch in the background when they are able to communicate with him. Of course, this wouldn't work because the species is found all over western North America. But the funny part is, they use a tropical Troupial as a stand-in for the nuthatch.
  #260  
Old 05-26-2020, 06:09 PM
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One thing I find jarring is when people in the distant past talk about things that are modern concerns, but wouldn't have been then. No, ancient Spartans aren't going to be concerned with "liberty" or "freedom," and medieval couples aren't going to be seeing their relationships in terms or modern advice columns. Most movies don't make any attempt to convey the different world views of other times or cultures; everyone speaks and reacts like people of the current time. (And that changes with the culture as well: Roman society as depicted in movies in the 1950s is different than that in current movies.)

Of course, this is understandable so that people can relate to the people in the movie. However, I find it much more interesting in those movies that actually try to depict a different worldview than our own.
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Old 05-26-2020, 07:40 PM
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medieval couples aren't going to be seeing their relationships in terms or modern advice columns.
Yeah, not too many people are going to identify with a marriage in which the wife is her husband's chattel and he could sell her if the price was right.
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Old 05-26-2020, 08:23 PM
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Well, my time machine lets you input whatever destination date you want. So, yeah. I ain't wasting any time hanging around waiting for the action to start.
  #263  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:12 PM
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(And that changes with the culture as well: Roman society as depicted in movies in the 1950s is different than that in current movies.)
And even as a kid, I noticed that Ancient Romans sported crewcuts in the 50s, shaggier haircuts in the 60s, and even mullets in the 70s.

It's like every single actor said "Okay, I'll play Marcus Aurelius, but only if I can keep my hairdo." Oh, and the women get to do their makeup to match the fashion of the present day, as well.
  #264  
Old 05-26-2020, 09:12 PM
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I didn't see this one in this thread, but what about when the good guy and bad guy are alone in some remote place and the bad guy says "Join me or I'll kill you!" and the good guy says "No way!" and they fight to the death or something.

Why doesn't the good guy just agree, and then later say - "I'm going to get a Starbucks!" and then just walk away?

Whenever I watch a movie like that with my kids, that's my advice to them - "If you are alone with someone who is going to kill you unless you agree with them, then just agree and get out of there. Then later, just walk away."
  #265  
Old 05-26-2020, 10:05 PM
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One thing I find jarring is when people in the distant past talk about things that are modern concerns, but wouldn't have been then. No, ancient Spartans aren't going to be concerned with "liberty" or "freedom," and medieval couples aren't going to be seeing their relationships in terms or modern advice columns. Most movies don't make any attempt to convey the different world views of other times or cultures; everyone speaks and reacts like people of the current time. (And that changes with the culture as well: Roman society as depicted in movies in the 1950s is different than that in current movies.
Re-watching Titanic some years ago, I had the sense that, as hard as they tried to write young Rose as being very well read and sophisticated, she seemed more like a 90s girl who had read a lot of magazines.

The overall effect is to make the movie seem dated, and not in a good way for a historical epic. Same goes with the portrayals of ancient or classical cultures you mention. Having the characters seem "dated" in that they have very foreign (to me) sensibilities more suited to a bronze or Iron Age Mediterranean culture is one thing. Dated to the decade it was made is something else, and kind of kills the vibe.

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  #266  
Old 05-26-2020, 11:14 PM
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Re-watching Titanic some years ago, I had the sense that, as hard as they tried to write young Rose as being very well read and sophisticated, she seemed more like a 90s girl who had read a lot of magazines.
What gave you that sense? It's been [old Rose voice] 23 years[/old Rose voice] since I saw the movie, and I was a 90s girl myself at the time, so it might be interesting to rewatch through cynical 36-year-old/2020 eyes, but...3 hours and 15 minutes run time... :whimper:
  #267  
Old 05-27-2020, 12:04 AM
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What gave you that sense? It's been [old Rose voice] 23 years[/old Rose voice] since I saw the movie, and I was a 90s girl myself at the time, so it might be interesting to rewatch through cynical 36-year-old/2020 eyes, but...3 hours and 15 minutes run time... :whimper:
There’s probably more that goes into the impression, but off the top of my head...

The way she name drops Freud and Picasso, signaling to the 90's audience that she’s "ahead of her time" and "sophisticated." It’d be one thing if she’d just name-dropped a couple of randos and went on to talk about how she admires and appreciates their work (even though nobody else does) to signal that she is well-read and opinionated, capable of thinking independently about things and taking a perhaps contrary view (as opposed to just spouting off received wisdom). But no: she had to drop names the audience would recognize. She can’t be smart unless she can make the butts-in-seats (and believe me, I was one of them at the time, no judgments) feel smart, too, for knowing who she’s talking about. And what are a couple of names, contemporary to Rose that a 90s audience might at least recognize and associate with some level of sophistication? Why, Sigmund Freud and Pablo Picasso, of course!

Because god forbid she be so sophisticated that she have her own, entirely localized to the period, tastes in art. No, she has to love Picasso, because "everyone [in the 90s] knows Picasso was a great artist" even he was still somewhat obscure in Rose's time, and even if, as I suspect, most people couldn’t name a single work by Picasso today (FWIW, off the top of my head I can only recall one) and, on being presented with one of his works, would probably look at it and go "Meh," unless of course you told them it was a Picasso, at which point they might just fall all over themselves saying how beautiful it is and how the man was clearly a master, and on and on. Okay, maybe I’m projecting, and maybe I’m channeling a bit too much of my inner Holden Caulfield. Still...

As to Freud, she gets bonus points (for pretentiousness) for mentioning him because, while the 90s audience probably recognizes the name and immediately thinks "brilliant psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist/neurologist/whatever," the actual state of psychoanalysis and related fields had already (by the 90s) moved well beyond. So she sounds smart and witty to a 90s audience of laypeople whose knowledge of, say, psychiatry is limited to what they got watching episodes of MASH and Frasier (again, no judgements, I was once in that category), but probably not so much to anyone who has taken even an introductory course in psychology since the 1960s. So she offers up that narrow sliver of knowledge necessary to impress (but not overwhelm) a bunch of moviegoers in the 90s, and not much else. Just enough to get the widest possible segment of the theater going audience to think, "Wow, she knows as I do, and I know I’m pretty smart, so she must be, too!" That’s Rose in a nutshell to me.

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  #268  
Old 05-27-2020, 04:39 AM
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The trope about being gifted and whining and moaning about how they wish they were normal and dull!
Every single time someone is gifted with a supernatural ability, they are a social outcast, a geeky pariah at school, or have some kind of hangup regarding their self esteem. And they always give this self deprecating speech about how they never asked for these amazing powers that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would love to have.
"I want to be like every other Joe Blow human. I never asked to have the power to fly, teleport, be irresistible to the opposite sex, make money with ease and travel through time fixing mistakes I've made. Oh woe, is me! I wish I never had these abilities!"

This trope makes me stabby! I want to punch this character in the gut for not looking at the bigger picture and seeing how good they have it and the world of opportunities those super duper gifts have to offer. Spare me your "my life is so hard" monologue.
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  #269  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:01 AM
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That reminds me: the trope of "Children who have secret friends with actual fantastical powers abandon them when they grow up". If I had a real dragon I would ride him every week. If I had someone who would let me fly I'd play with him every week.
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:04 AM
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Mistaken identity.
People who look alike trading places.
People who were framed and are on the run.

I would erase/burn every copy of every movie/TV show that had any of these themes.
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  #271  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:36 AM
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I guess I haven't seen it in awhile now, but it used to be fairly common: My family is coming to visit, and oh, no, I told them a bunch of lies about how I'm the boss of this company, when I'm really a lowly janitor. Maybe you can all just pretend I'm the boss for the week they'll be here? Pretty please?

Related: My college pal is coming to visit, and oh, no, I told him a bunch of lies about how I'm married to the most attractive female member of the cast. Maybe we can just pretend to be married for the week he'll be here? Pretty please?
  #272  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:38 AM
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And even as a kid, I noticed that Ancient Romans sported crewcuts in the 50s, shaggier haircuts in the 60s, and even mullets in the 70s.

It's like every single actor said "Okay, I'll play Marcus Aurelius, but only if I can keep my hairdo." Oh, and the women get to do their makeup to match the fashion of the present day, as well.
It always amuses me that in the original Star Trek the women from different futuristic civilizations have 1960s hairstyles.

No doubt people in 50 years' time will say the same about today's SF movies and series.
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:39 AM
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One thing I find jarring is when people in the distant past talk about things that are modern concerns, but wouldn't have been then. No, ancient Spartans aren't going to be concerned with "liberty" or "freedom," and medieval couples aren't going to be seeing their relationships in terms or modern advice columns. Most movies don't make any attempt to convey the different world views of other times or cultures; everyone speaks and reacts like people of the current time. (And that changes with the culture as well: Roman society as depicted in movies in the 1950s is different than that in current movies.)

Of course, this is understandable so that people can relate to the people in the movie. However, I find it much more interesting in those movies that actually try to depict a different worldview than our own.
Yeah, period pieces without cultural anachronisms, or at least make a sincere effort to avoid them, would be a very short list. I kind of enjoy spotting anachronisms in period movies and TV shows. And not just modernisms that take place in past fictional settings-- the various Star Trek incarnations are full of phrases and cultural references from the 20th century. It's as if somebody today was constantly talking in Shakespeare-speak. Granted, it's got to be difficult to imagine and create a futuristic type of dialogue without sounding a little silly, "Cloud Atlas" style.

On the other side of the coin, I like watching Western TV shows and movies because they are such fictional creations, viewing the mid-to-late 1800s through the lens of sensibilities 100 years later. Is there any Western that comes even remotely close to accurately portraying the Old West? I hear Tombstone comes pretty close.

If I come across a period piece movie I'm not familiar with while flipping channels, I play a little game with myself-- try to guess the year the movie was made, going by things like anachronistic speech patterns, cultural attitudes, and hairstyles. I can usually get within a year or two.
  #274  
Old 05-27-2020, 07:42 AM
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Yeah, not too many people are going to identify with a marriage in which the wife is her husband's chattel and he could sell her if the price was right.
Which medieval civilization are you talking about where that was the case? It certainly wasn't anywhere in medieval Europe.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:49 AM
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The trope about being gifted and whining and moaning about how they wish they were normal and dull!
Every single time someone is gifted with a supernatural ability, they are a social outcast, a geeky pariah at school, or have some kind of hangup regarding their self esteem. And they always give this self deprecating speech about how they never asked for these amazing powers that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would love to have.
"I want to be like every other Joe Blow human. I never asked to have the power to fly, teleport, be irresistible to the opposite sex, make money with ease and travel through time fixing mistakes I've made. Oh woe, is me! I wish I never had these abilities!"

This trope makes me stabby! I want to punch this character in the gut for not looking at the bigger picture and seeing how good they have it and the world of opportunities those super duper gifts have to offer. Spare me your "my life is so hard" monologue.
Especially since it's so easy to be a social outcast, a geeky pariah at school, or have some kind of hangup regarding their self esteem while having no extraordinary gifts at all.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:53 AM
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Which medieval civilization are you talking about where that was the case? It certainly wasn't anywhere in medieval Europe.
Well, for the last part, there is wife selling although that was usually a figleaf for (mutually-agreed or not) divorce with a pre-arranged purchaser rather than actual commerce.
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Old 05-27-2020, 11:54 AM
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Which medieval civilization are you talking about where that was the case? It certainly wasn't anywhere in medieval Europe.
More recently there was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_s...English_custom).

ETA: ninja'd by seconds!

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  #278  
Old 05-27-2020, 12:31 PM
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Well, my time machine lets you input whatever destination date you want. So, yeah. I ain't wasting any time hanging around waiting for the action to start.
That's assuming the characters are using a time machine and aren't just getting thrown back in time by some space monster or weird anomaly. And even with a time machine that allowed the user to input a destination date, in BTTF it was set to the date Doc Brown came up with the idea for the Flux Capacitor. That just coincidentally happened to also be the week Marty's parents met, which coincidentally was the same day lightning struck the clock tower.

Come to think of it, Star Trek IV is a good example of a story that avoided the trope. Kirk and his crew just traveled back to a random date in the mid-1980s. The conflict comes from the fish out of water scenario of these people from hundreds of years in the future trying to navigate 1980s San Francisco. Maybe that's another trope -- if time travel doesn't take the hero to a significant date, then it will take them to the "present day" whenever the story was written.
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:36 PM
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That's assuming the characters are using a time machine and aren't just getting thrown back in time by some space monster or weird anomaly. And even with a time machine that allowed the user to input a destination date, in BTTF it was set to the date Doc Brown came up with the idea for the Flux Capacitor. That just coincidentally happened to also be the week Marty's parents met, which coincidentally was the same day lightning struck the clock tower.
They could have made the movie about a self-fulfilling loop, so that it would be a coincidence that Marty's parents met the same day (it would have been always the case that Marty a) gave Doc the idea for the flux capacitor and b) caused his parents to meet), but they didn't.

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Come to think of it, Star Trek IV is a good example of a story that avoided the trope. Kirk and his crew just traveled back to a random date in the mid-1980s. The conflict comes from the fish out of water scenario of these people from hundreds of years in the future trying to navigate 1980s San Francisco. Maybe that's another trope -- if time travel doesn't take the hero to a significant date, then it will take them to the "present day" whenever the story was written.
In Scalzi's Redshirts, a main character says (approximately) "When a show has character go back in time, it's either to a significant date or to the time period the show was made" - STIV is the second case.
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:42 PM
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Maybe that's another trope -- if time travel doesn't take the hero to a significant date, then it will take them to the "present day" whenever the story was written.
Cheaper that way. Which I believe was kind of the point with Star Trek IV. As an aside, I can forgive filmmakers for including "anachronistic" elements when traveling into the future because it seems kind of pointless to expend energy trying to predict how people will wear their hair a hundred or a thousand years from now. Whatever they choose, they’re bound to be wrong and (distant) future viewers, if there are any, are bound to notice.

But it doesn’t need to be that way—at least not to the same degree—with the past.

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  #281  
Old 05-27-2020, 12:48 PM
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They could have made the movie about a self-fulfilling loop, so that it would be a coincidence that Marty's parents met the same day (it would have been always the case that Marty a) gave Doc the idea for the flux capacitor and b) caused his parents to meet), but they didn't.



In Scalzi's Redshirts, a main character says (approximately) "When a show has character go back in time, it's either to a significant date or to the time period the show was made" - STIV is the second case.
Actual quote

“If a show goes back to a specific time in its actual past, they'll usually key it to a specific important historical person or event, because they have to give the audience something it knows about history, or else it won't care. But if the show goes back to the present, then it doesn't do that. It just shows that time and the characters reacting to it. It's a dramatic irony thing.”
  #282  
Old 05-27-2020, 12:56 PM
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On the other side of the coin, I like watching Western TV shows and movies because they are such fictional creations, viewing the mid-to-late 1800s through the lens of sensibilities 100 years later. Is there any Western that comes even remotely close to accurately portraying the Old West? I hear Tombstone comes pretty close.
Westerns like Gunsmoke from the optimistic 1960s had characters who were generally straight arrows, and even the hookers were referred to as "dance hall girls." In more cynical, disillusioned times, Deadwood was a cesspool of vice and villainy, with few if any characters entirely admirable. The latter was perhaps a little closer to the truth but still an exaggeration.

I thought that HBO's Rome made an effort to show how different the mindset of the time might have been, particularly with regard to the Roman religion and personal relationships. They also displayed Rome as a real city with slums and mundane activities, not just marble monuments. Of course there were a lot of inaccuracies, but I thought they made an effort to get away from historical stereotypes.

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  #283  
Old 05-27-2020, 01:15 PM
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That's late 17th century, not medieval. And not in the case of formal marriages. And not condoned by any authorities.
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Old 05-27-2020, 01:43 PM
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Westerns like Gunsmoke from the optimistic 1960s had characters who were generally straight arrows, and even the hookers were referred to as "dance hall girls." In more cynical, disillusioned times, Deadwood was a cesspool of vice and villainy, with few if any characters entirely admirable. The latter was perhaps a little closer to the truth but still an exaggeration.

I thought that HBO's Rome made an effort to show how different the mindset of the time might have been, particularly with regard to the Roman religion and personal relationships. They also displayed Rome as a real city with slums and mundane activities, not just marble monuments. Of course there were a lot of inaccuracies, but I thought they made an effort to get away from historical stereotypes.
it's such a glaring dichotomy of TV Westerns of the 60s how anything hinting at sexuality was whitewashed, as you mention; yet the violence, though mostly bloodless, was shockingly casual. The good guys routinely killed people as often as the bad guys did, and as casually as stepping on a bug; the only difference was the good guys only killed when they were drawn on, and there was not a hint of even the most rudimentary investigation other than "he was drawn on first, sheriff". "OK, good enough for me".

Bullets flew in the streets constantly. One episode of "The Rifleman" had a group of rowdy cowboys in town on R&R after a cattle drive, getting drunk and shooting up the town. One cowboy doesn't like the look of one of the townsfolk, and shoots at his feet in the street to "make him dance". Then one of his buddies says "that's a waste of bullets" to which he says "watch, I'll shoot the buttons off his shirt" and the victim goes off running to much laughter. So they're the "bad guys" of the episode, right? No, they're just letting off steam. The real "bad guy" of the episode was a young Robert Vaughn filling in as sheriff and is too gung-ho, cracking down on the basically decent cowboys and pushing them to the limit. Why, he even has the nerve to put up signs saying visitors to the town have to check their firearms at the city limits! The power-mad sheriff barely escapes with his life, thanks to the intervention of Lucas McCain.

And yes, I watched the first season of Rome (was there a second?) and I remember appreciating what they did attempting to create an ancient Roman cultural worldview and mindset as well.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:18 PM
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And yes, I watched the first season of Rome (was there a second?) and I remember appreciating what they did attempting to create an ancient Roman cultural worldview and mindset as well.
Rome had two seasons, the first of 12 episodes, the second of 10. The first ended with the [spoiler alert!] assassination of Julius Caesar, the second with the victory of Octavian over Anthony and Cleopatra.

There were some absurdities and inaccuracies, but when I read up on some of the more outlandish plot twists during the Roman civil wars, it turned out they were based on historical fact, or at least rumored in contemporary accounts. The changing alliances and multiple betrayals were like something out of The Sopranos or Breaking Bad, and these were the aristocrats.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:18 PM
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Yeah, not too many people are going to identify with a marriage in which the wife is her husband's chattel and he could sell her if the price was right.
Yeah, that show Outlander, where a 20th century nurse happens to find the one highlander with good teeth, a lack of vermin, who can speak a language/dialect she understands, and who is egalitarian.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:20 PM
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What gave you that sense? It's been [old Rose voice] 23 years[/old Rose voice] since I saw the movie, and I was a 90s girl myself at the time, so it might be interesting to rewatch through cynical 36-year-old/2020 eyes, but...3 hours and 15 minutes run time... :whimper:
The film also bothers me as it shows the "It's evil if men cheat, but romantic if women do it" trope.

Bridges of Madison County is the standard bearer in this, but it is in many other films.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:20 PM
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it's such a glaring dichotomy of TV Westerns of the 60s how anything hinting at sexuality was whitewashed, as you mention; <snip>
That reminds me of another western trope: the still attractive, but a bit withered, cynical bar maid with a past (ex-prostitute, but that's of course only implied) and a golden heart, torn between the villain and the good guy. As perfectly exemplified in the John Sturges western Last Train From Gun Hill from 1959 I saw just last Sunday.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:26 PM
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The trope about being gifted and whining and moaning about how they wish they were normal and dull!
Every single time someone is gifted with a supernatural ability, they are a social outcast, a geeky pariah at school, or have some kind of hangup regarding their self esteem. And they always give this self deprecating speech about how they never asked for these amazing powers that anyone with a modicum of intelligence would love to have.
"I want to be like every other Joe Blow human. I never asked to have the power to fly, teleport, be irresistible to the opposite sex, make money with ease and travel through time fixing mistakes I've made. Oh woe, is me! I wish I never had these abilities!"

This trope makes me stabby! I want to punch this character in the gut for not looking at the bigger picture and seeing how good they have it and the world of opportunities those super duper gifts have to offer. Spare me your "my life is so hard" monologue.
Shazam kinda reverses this trope, but Joseph Campbell has a lot to answer for. Not every hero goes on the mythological Heroes Journey, so start that way.

Yes, Sgt York is the reluctant hero. But Audie Murphy had always wanted to be a soldier.
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Old 05-27-2020, 02:49 PM
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The film also bothers me as it shows the "It's evil if men cheat, but romantic if women do it" trope.
I don't think I agree with that interpretation. Technically, yes, Rose slept with Jack before breaking her engagement to Cal. But it's not like she carried on an affair that we're supposed to forgive based on her gender. We're supposed to forgive it because she was being forced into a marriage with a man who hit her, condescended to her, and was generally a boorish jerk (I also think that Picasso reference wasn't about showing how sophisticated she was, but about how stupid he was to be so dismissive of her), but then she found true love and the inner strength to tell him to fuck off.

If this sort of thing happens less often with men, in real life or in fiction, it may be because men have not been forced into those unhappy marriages as often as their brides. Historically, men have had more agency, and thus are not the underdogs you cheer for.
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Old 05-27-2020, 03:07 PM
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I don't think I agree with that interpretation. Technically, yes, Rose slept with Jack before breaking her engagement to Cal. But it's not like she carried on an affair that we're supposed to forgive based on her gender. We're supposed to forgive it because she was being forced into a marriage with a man who hit her, condescended to her, and was generally a boorish jerk .....
Forced? in 1909? Hardly. Arm twisted by family maybe. If Cal was that bad, dont agree to the engagement.
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Old 05-27-2020, 04:15 PM
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Forced? in 1909? Hardly. Arm twisted by family maybe. If Cal was that bad, dont agree to the engagement.
She was, as I recall, 17 in the movie, and her father had sunk the family fortune. Don’t underestimate the extent to which familial pressure exerted on a minor child ("Do this or we’ll end up on the streets, and you can make jokes about Freud and the male fascination with size all you want as you’re turning tricks in bars instead of being a pampered socialite girl!") as being somewhat... deleterious to that child's agency.

I do hope you’re not one of those people who thinks the world's problems can be reduced down to "women marrying jerks instead of nice guys" (referring to an element of a certain... troubling ideology).

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  #293  
Old Today, 08:39 AM
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Is it possible to be tired of a trope that hasn't occurred yet?

Because I am already anticipating "reconnection" books, television shows, and movies where the main character is someone who is on the job at all times and is neglecting family/neighbors/pets/favorite hobbies/…..kitchen appliances...but then finds a wonderful reconnection to them due to the need to quarantine at home. Think of it as a 2020 update to "Jingle all the Way".

Also, romantic comedies where the two people become aware of each other (they might live on opposite sides of the street) but cannot get together because each is self-quarantined.
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Old Today, 12:25 PM
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She was, as I recall, 17 in the movie, and her father had sunk the family fortune. Don’t underestimate the extent to which familial pressure exerted on a minor child ("Do this or we’ll end up on the streets, and you can make jokes about Freud and the male fascination with size all you want as you’re turning tricks in bars instead of being a pampered socialite girl!") as being somewhat... deleterious to that child's agency.

I do hope you’re not one of those people who thinks the world's problems can be reduced down to "women marrying jerks instead of nice guys" (referring to an element of a certain... troubling ideology).
And, so then, after the ship sinks- how well off is her family? Not only that, but now she is in America without a dime.

It is just that I dont like the reverse tropes of when men cheat it is so very evil and bad things must happen to him, but when women cheat it is gloriously romantic.


Nope. It is a problem, but so is men marrying bimbos. Neither one is critical, it's been happening since Og the caveman.
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