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  #51  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:20 PM
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Yeah, that started it. Not the hit, twist to the ground, and holding Rudolph down long after the play had moved on.
I just watched a good replay video.

Yeah, an arguably late take-down by Garret (not particularly violent but not super-gentle). IMHO, barely possibly a roughing the passer.

Then Rudolph tries to pull Garret's helmet off. Garrett retaliates by succeeding in pulling Garret's helmet off (in a more violent and dangerous way). At that point Garret is being pushed away with 600+ lbs of Steeler between him and Rudolph. So helmetless Rudolph naturally jumps in for more, gets clonked and immediately backs up and turns to the ref asking for a penalty.

I'm not saying hitting someone with a helmet is OK, or that Garret shouldn't be suspended, but I kind of feel Rudolph deserves a little bit of whatever headache he has today.
  #52  
Old 11-15-2019, 03:24 PM
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I'm not saying hitting someone with a helmet is OK, or that Garret shouldn't be suspended, but I kind of feel Rudolph deserves a little bit of whatever headache he has today.
Heís not blameless, but in the eyes of the NFL heís a QB.
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Old 11-15-2019, 03:56 PM
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I don't care if it's heat of the moment. Swinging a helmet with bad intentions at a guy not wearing a helmet is potential manslaughter. Assuming he's been a clean player up to this point, I'm inclined to say he deserves a shot at redemption, but until then, he should be suspended the rest of this year and well into next year. I couldn't believe what I saw.
  #54  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:08 PM
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I don't care if it's heat of the moment. Swinging a helmet with bad intentions at a guy not wearing a helmet is potential manslaughter. Assuming he's been a clean player up to this point, I'm inclined to say he deserves a shot at redemption, but until then, he should be suspended the rest of this year and well into next year. I couldn't believe what I saw.
He hasnít been a clean player, his record has been spotty all season. He was fined for punching Delanie Walker (Titans TE) and then he got fined twice for late hits on Trevor Siemian when he was the starting QB for the Jets. The second hit resulted in an ankle injury that ended his season. The fines before this latest incident were already more than $50,000. So no, not clean.

Heís definitely suspended for the rest of the season (though heís reportedly planning to appeal, of course) and aside from that his suspension is ďindefiniteĒ. Which could certainly carry into next year, or be forever. He will have to convince Goodell to let him play again.
  #55  
Old 11-15-2019, 04:37 PM
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I just watched a good replay video.

Yeah, an arguably late take-down by Garret (not particularly violent but not super-gentle). IMHO, barely possibly a roughing the passer.

Then Rudolph tries to pull Garret's helmet off. Garrett retaliates by succeeding in pulling Garret's helmet off (in a more violent and dangerous way). At that point Garret is being pushed away with 600+ lbs of Steeler between him and Rudolph. So helmetless Rudolph naturally jumps in for more, gets clonked and immediately backs up and turns to the ref asking for a penalty.

I'm not saying hitting someone with a helmet is OK, or that Garret shouldn't be suspended, but I kind of feel Rudolph deserves a little bit of whatever headache he has today.
I agree that Rudolph is not blameless in inciting the incident. He is clearly scrabbling to pull Garrett's helmet off at the start of the whole thing and there's no excuse for that. If it's a late hit, Garrett will get flagged and possibly fined. He should not have escalated to "attempted helmet removal" and the fact that he was unsuccessful only somewhat mitigates it.

That said, Rudolph escalated to 4, while Garrett then turned the knob up to 11. I would have no objection if he never played a down of football again. If you can't control yourself, fuck off.
  #56  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:18 PM
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Awful lot of helmet to helmet hits. At least some of the Browns seemed to be headhunting. Browns HC Kitchens: “Did I want them to get after their ass? Yes, I did, but that's not fighting, that's not after the whistle. Between the whistles, yes. I never condone fighting on a football field because that's penalties”. So late hits, helmet to helmet - all good as long as they haven’t blown the whistle. Wouldn’t want a penalty.
  #57  
Old 11-15-2019, 05:34 PM
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Awful lot of helmet to helmet hits. At least some of the Browns seemed to be headhunting. Browns HC Kitchens: ďDid I want them to get after their ass? Yes, I did, but that's not fighting, that's not after the whistle. Between the whistles, yes. I never condone fighting on a football field because that's penaltiesĒ. So late hits, helmet to helmet - all good as long as they havenít blown the whistle. Wouldnít want a penalty.
I commented on that very thing last night; it's like they forgot what year they were in. From what I saw, it didn't look like targeting; it just looked like a team that doesn't play with a lot of discipline. They were fortunate they caught Pittsburgh on an off night. I bet the Steelers slap the shit out of them two weeks from now.
  #58  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:40 PM
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Browns had a pretty brutal schedule the first half of the year, 2nd hardest. It was pretty unlucky for a team with a new head coach trying to find an identity ended up getting stuck with a murderer's row like that.

The rest of the schedule:
Dolphins
@Steelers
Bengals
@Cardinals
Ravens
@Bengals

If they had the easy stretch of games in the first half of the schedule I think they'd be a winning team right now.

The offense is still dysfunctional and underperforming but the defense has been playing pretty great. I think it's not too unlikely that they win 5 of those games, which puts them in the playoff picture at 9-7. Before you say the Ravens game is an obvious loss, the Browns beat them convincingly in Baltimore and they're coming home. If the ravens drop a couple, that week 16 game could end up being a significant game that could determine the division winner.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 11-15-2019 at 06:41 PM.
  #59  
Old 11-15-2019, 06:52 PM
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I just watched a good replay video.

Yeah, an arguably late take-down by Garret (not particularly violent but not super-gentle). IMHO, barely possibly a roughing the passer.

Then Rudolph tries to pull Garret's helmet off. Garrett retaliates by succeeding in pulling Garret's helmet off (in a more violent and dangerous way). At that point Garret is being pushed away with 600+ lbs of Steeler between him and Rudolph. So helmetless Rudolph naturally jumps in for more, gets clonked and immediately backs up and turns to the ref asking for a penalty.

I'm not saying hitting someone with a helmet is OK, or that Garret shouldn't be suspended, but I kind of feel Rudolph deserves a little bit of whatever headache he has today.
The hit wasn't late at all, but the way Garrett twisted him down can easily hyperextend a knee or bust an ankle. With eight seconds left in the game. When the play has already moved ten yards upfield. When the Browns were up by two touchdowns.

Rudolph deserves the fine he's got coming. But to attempt to say he started the entire thing ignores the situation and what led up to his attempted helmet removal.
  #60  
Old 11-16-2019, 09:36 AM
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Lost in all the craziness at the end of the game is how dirty the Browns defense played:

Two wide receivers knocked out of the game with helmet-to-helmet hits (there was even no penalty called when two players hit Ju-Ju Smith-Schuster helmet to helmet on the same play), and one where the Steeler left the field bleeding from his ear.

A flag for blatant helmet to helmet hit on the QB after he had thrown the ball.

At least one other play where a Browns defender hit the QB in the helmet with their arm (no flag) which led Troy Aikman to say "I've seen flags for a lot less".

It makes sense that the a browns are the most penalized team in the league. They are Dirty.
  #61  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:30 AM
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It makes sense that the a browns are the most penalized team in the league. They are Dirty.
Thatís one possible conclusion but not the only one. The other possibility is that theyíre undisciplined.

Iíll explain the difference. A dirty player is intentionally trying to get away with hurting people. He is either hoping heís sneaky enough to get away with it, or that the impact of the injury outweighs the penalty. If you knock the star WR out of the game then itís worth a 15 yard penalty.

An undisciplined player isnít intentionally trying to hurt people but ends up doing so out of sloppy play, bad decisions, or just losing his temper. He doesnít get his helmet out of the way of a tackle, or he exchanges words with an opponent then takes a swing at him, etc.

The way you can tell the difference is that dirty players are consistent. There are certain things they do which become their signature. Ndamukong Suh has a history of ďaccidentallyĒ stepping on QBs legs to injure them (Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson are two I can think of) and he was careful to make them look unintentional, but you donít keep having the same accident over and over. Vontaze Burfict hits defenseless receivers all the time, itís part of his gameplay. Those are dirty players and theyíre consistent.

To demonstrate that the Browns are dirty you have to illustrate that they are consistent about it. But they are the most inconsistent team in the NFL. They are led by a rookie head coach who seems to have little control over his team. They have a young, brash QB who isnít a leader (maybe someday but not now). Theyíre like a motorcycle that has nobody grabbing the handlebars.

The end result might be the same but I donít think this is like the Saints targeting people intentionally. I think itís a team that is unmanaged and has unfocused talent on it. They donít play well as a team and arenít coached well, and they do crazy and sometimes very bad things. Theyíre absolutely deserving of criticism but I donít think being ďdirtyĒ is one of them.
  #62  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:49 AM
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There was just a story on Kaep on CNN. Really? With all the other things going on, it’s still all about Kaep.
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  #63  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:54 AM
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There was just a story on Kaep on CNN. Really? With all the other things going on, itís still all about Kaep.
I didnít see the story, but why not? He has his tryout in Atlanta today, I think.
  #64  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:47 AM
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Regarding Mason Rudolph, I don't think what he did warrants any other punishment. What should've happened was an unsportsmanlike flag at the time. Him pulling at a helmet after being held down is not an egregious incident. If the alleged groin kick was more clearly visible, then I would think it deserves a fine/suspension, but all I see is a raised leg, not a kick.
  #65  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:06 PM
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There was just a story on Kaep on CNN. Really? With all the other things going on, itís still all about Kaep.
You are the one who felt strongly enough to bring it back up in this thread. If other people also feel so strongly about it (positively or negatively), it's clearly newsworthy. It was otherwise forgotten in this thread. Maybe take a look in the mirror?


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Regarding Mason Rudolph, I don't think what he did warrants any other punishment.
I disagree, but I also think there's enough room for sanctions big and small to be passed around for all the nonsense without detracting at all from the notion Garrett's actions were totally unacceptable with no extenuating circumstances.

Rudolph doesn't deserve a suspension or a major fine, but players are told not to escalate. Rudolph did escalate and there needs to be at least some consequence to that, but QBs do get more of a pass.

I have no problems passing around at least fines minor and major to all the players involved.
  #66  
Old 11-16-2019, 03:28 PM
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You are the one who felt strongly enough to bring it back up in this thread. If other people also feel so strongly about it (positively or negatively), it's clearly newsworthy. It was otherwise forgotten in this thread. Maybe take a look in the mirror?...
Well, it's a lazy hook for the non-sports affiliated media to grab onto when discussing the NFL. I thought, tongue in cheek, that it might've had something to do with Rudolph not catching any penalty that would result in missing games. The truth is, he's a has-been running QB whose best days are behind him, and who, I am convinced, cynically grabbed onto the BLM movement to induce the San Francisco 49ers front office to not cut him because his athleticism had slipped. It obviously didn't work.

I think he had a shot in Baltimore, had his then fiancee decided not to stir the pot. Oh well.

Agreed that lots of people in the fracas earned fines. I go back and forth about whether kicking Garrett in the crotch earns a game off or not.
  #67  
Old 11-16-2019, 04:58 PM
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I didnít see the story, but why not? He has his tryout in Atlanta today, I think.
Iím just checking Twitter now but apparently he didnít show up.
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  #68  
Old 11-16-2019, 05:53 PM
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Iím just checking Twitter now but apparently he didnít show up.
From what I read, Kaep and his representatives moved the location of the workout from Atlanta Falcons to a local high school. They also issued a press release bitching, maybe accurately, about the NFL's handling of everything. The carnival continues.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:00 PM
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The carnival continues.
In the neverending battle of press releases, the NFL contradicts Kaepernick's press release, and says he skipped the workout rather than just moved it.

Both sides of this carnival annoy the heck out of me, so just wake me up when/if he ever actually sets foot on an actual NFL football field.

Last edited by Hamlet; 11-16-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:16 PM
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The NFL wanted Kap to sign a waiver that not only protected them from injury liability during the workout, but would have protected them against claims regarding employment opportunities. This was 110% about legal maneuvering ahead of a second lawsuit.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:24 PM
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The NFL wanted Kap to sign a waiver that not only protected them from injury liability during the workout, but would have protected them against claims regarding employment opportunities. This was 110% about legal maneuvering ahead of a second lawsuit.
Well, it's also about Kaep getting footage for his next Nike commercial.
  #72  
Old 11-16-2019, 07:41 PM
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Well, it's also about Kaep getting footage for his next Nike commercial.
Nikeís new slogan:

Just Skip It
  #73  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:37 PM
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I wonder what would have happened if it were Brady who got bashed in the head with his helmet that had been ripped off his head. Garrett would probably have been sent immediately to Azkaban, not passing go, nor collecting two-hundred dollars.
  #74  
Old 11-17-2019, 02:25 PM
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Kirk Cousins should just change his legal name to "90 million dollar quarterback Kirk Cousins"
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Old 11-17-2019, 04:20 PM
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In the last 5 years, teams trailing at the half by 20 were 0-99. Minnesota just became the 1 team to come back. At least I think that's the stat Red Zone just said.
  #76  
Old 11-17-2019, 04:21 PM
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Vikings with an amazing comeback after a horrible first half. Then the Broncos March down and have a chance to win. Exciting, fun game to watch
  #77  
Old 11-17-2019, 04:47 PM
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The Ravens game really could have gone better. Sigh.

At least the Texans can rebuild in the Draft....oh, yeah. Sorry.
  #78  
Old 11-17-2019, 06:04 PM
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The Ravens game really could have gone better. Sigh.

At least the Texans can rebuild in the Draft....oh, yeah. Sorry.
Deshaun Watson really didn't play well. A good chunk of it was the pressure the Ravens pass rush put on him, but he looked scared and didn't help his O line much at all.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:01 PM
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Jimmy G overcomes two costly interceptions and a 16 point deficit to throw for over 400yds and 4 TDs. The defense held up enough to give the offense opportunities. And due to a crazy TD off a botched lateral, the 49ers not only win, but cover the ridiculous 9.5 spread.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:22 PM
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Colts record their first victory of the season by more than one touchdown.
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  #81  
Old 11-17-2019, 08:44 PM
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2 drives, 2 turnovers for the Rams. This game is already ugly as hell.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:56 PM
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Hilarious. Pineiro misses again and NBC plays Missed Again by Genesis going to break. Well done,
  #83  
Old 11-17-2019, 09:47 PM
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Ugly, boring game. Some nice defensive plays, but the lack of scoring is much more about incompetence than stellar defensive play. The Good Place it is for me.
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Old 11-17-2019, 09:59 PM
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Ugly, boring game. Some nice defensive plays, but the lack of scoring is much more about incompetence than stellar defensive play. The Good Place it is for me.
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Old 11-17-2019, 11:21 PM
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Boy, "Da Bears"' offense really is quite poor. I was hoping they'd win tonight but after seeing them in action I realize that them winning was a pipe dream. I hope Lamar Jackson and the Ravens can do to the Rams next Monday night what Chicago utterly failed to do tonight.
  #86  
Old 11-18-2019, 07:33 AM
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Ugly, boring game. Some nice defensive plays, but the lack of scoring is much more about incompetence than stellar defensive play. The Good Place it is for me.
A 5-4 and a 4-5 team slugging it out, it was a mediocre game between two mediocre teams.
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Old 11-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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First Quarter;

1) Bears get opening kickoff and drive stalls.
2) Rams turn the ball over, but Bears fail to capitalize.
3) Rams turn the ball over again, but Bears fail to capitalize again.
4) Bears have to punt but get the ball back when Rams running into the kicker gives them a first down, but they STILL fail to capitalize.

The game was over then even though it was still 0 - 0.

Under the right system and with good coaching, I think Trubisky can be a decent QB, but "decent" doesn't cut it in a QB-centric league. The fact is that our GM passed on TWO All-Pro caliber QBs AND spent a draft pick to get Trubisky. That has turned out to be a monumental blunder for which we will pay for years to come. Our offensive line is horrible. They get pushed into backfield on running plays instead of pushing the "D" off the line of scrimmage. Again, personnel is the GM's responsibility. If this guy still has a job for next season, I'll be shocked.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:42 AM
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Jimmy G overcomes two costly interceptions and a 16 point deficit to throw for over 400yds and 4 TDs. The defense held up enough to give the offense opportunities. And due to a crazy TD off a botched lateral, the 49ers not only win, but cover the ridiculous 9.5 spread.
Emphasis mine.

This was an 8-1 team playing a 3-6-1 team. This was a +130 team playing a -59 team. And the 49ers beat the spread by the smallest possible margin (half a point) despite some costly interceptions and an early points deficit.

All of that suggests to me that the spread was, in fact, pretty damn accurate and not at all ridiculous.

Last edited by mhendo; 11-18-2019 at 08:43 AM.
  #89  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:55 AM
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Ugly, boring game. Some nice defensive plays, but the lack of scoring is much more about incompetence than stellar defensive play. The Good Place it is for me.
Being in LA they force me to watch the Rams games. The Rams make a LOT of mistakes. Last nights game was The Fuckup Bowl 2, the 1st being the SF v LA game earlier this year. The Rams need OL help and they go and trade 2 #1s for a DB. Imo, they also need a new QB. Goff is too inconsistent and easily rattled.

Thank you Bears for yet another loss and a higher #1 pick for the Raiders. I could have never believed the Bears would be this bad. The Mack trade is looking a lot better for the Raiders,
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:59 AM
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Under the right system and with good coaching, I think Trubisky can be a decent QB, but "decent" doesn't cut it in a QB-centric league.
He was "decent" last year, and the Bears went 12-4 and made the playoffs. Decent is good enough to win with that defense.
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The fact is that our GM passed on TWO All-Pro caliber QBs AND spent a draft pick to get Trubisky. That has turned out to be a monumental blunder for which we will pay for years to come.
But Trubisky made the pro bowl last year.

You're absolutely right; with every game, passing on Mahomes and Watson and trading up against nobody to get Trubisky is looking worse and worse. As a Packer fan, it has made me extraordinarily happy to see yet another wonderful defense being wasted by incompetence on offense. I am actually a bit surprised that they didn't succeed in getting even a game managing QB before the trade deadline to give this team a chance, but hey, they're the Bears.

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Our offensive line is horrible. They get pushed into backfield on running plays instead of pushing the "D" off the line of scrimmage. Again, personnel is the GM's responsibility. If this guy still has a job for next season, I'll be shocked.
I think Pace will get at least one more year. Everyone seems to love the Mack trade and Roquan looks pretty darn good so far. And, for reasons I have trouble comprehending, fans still hold out hope that David Montgomery and Anthony Miller will be a thing. Even if Trubisky is a bust, Pace has done enough in the middle rounds to stick around awhile.
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Old 11-18-2019, 11:53 AM
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You're absolutely right; with every game, passing on Mahomes and Watson and trading up against nobody to get Trubisky is looking worse and worse.
It's even worse.

There was all that cloak and dagger with the clandestine Bears workout with Trubisky. There weren't going to be many (any?) teams willing to give the 49ers that much to jump up to #2 for Trubisky even if everybody knew Chicago was interested.

The 49ers, for their part, look like geniuses. They didn't give up anything, still have what appears to be a reasonable franchise QB, and got extra picks out of the bargain.
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:59 PM
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One good thing about that game is that it was the first time I heard the nickname “The Biscuit” for Mitch.

I like it. It’s my favorite Bears QB nickname since Jimmy Pickles.
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:31 PM
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One good thing about that game is that it was the first time I heard the nickname ďThe BiscuitĒ for Mitch.

I like it. Itís my favorite Bears QB nickname since Jimmy Pickles.
If I remember correctly in one of his books from the 1980s John Madden wrote that the Bears' nickname for DL William Perry was "Biscuit" (one that I think he was originally given by either Steve McMichael or Dan Hampton), as in: "He's one biscuit shy of 350 (lbs.)."
  #94  
Old 11-18-2019, 02:38 PM
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If I remember correctly in one of his books from the 1980s John Madden wrote that the Bears' nickname for DL William Perry was "Biscuit" (one that I think he was originally given by either Steve McMichael or Dan Hampton), as in: "He's one biscuit shy of 350 (lbs.)."
Youíre talking about the Fridge?

I think I had a G.I. Joe figure of him.
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Old 11-18-2019, 02:50 PM
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Youíre talking about the Fridge?

I think I had a G.I. Joe figure of him.
Yes.
  #96  
Old 11-19-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
Colts record their first victory of the season by more than one touchdown.
I went to this game with my youngest son the Colts fan. Oh my...Lucas Oil is a FINE facility. Man is it awesome. PBS is a complete shithole by comparison. I saw like maybe ten Jags fans the whole game. Nothing but a sea of cheering blue. And all kinds of cool fan involvement. Plus they play real NFL football there.
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Posting From Above The Browns
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:44 PM
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If the Cleveland Browns weren't pretty loaded at running back, I'd expect them to jump at the chance to sign Mark Walton.

He's John Dorsey's give-him-a-second-chance kind of player.*

*and would fit in great with Kareem Hunt.
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