Straight Dope Message Board

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

That's a big ole nope.

Reality in this thread contradicts your assertion. The precedent was clear. Ed’s words were written in very easy to understand English. Furthermore, moderation of the jerk rule was clarified. Both clarifications were deliberately ignored to placate a howling mob.

Originally Posted by jz78817

no. we celebrate sanctions against a poster who is unpopular because he made his attacks personal.

you don't have the right to free speech on someone else's platform. your right to free speech is not being infringed just because the SDMB is no longer willing to host it. Freedom of speech means you can't be arrested or silenced by the government. IT doesn't mean anyone else has to host or tolerate your bullshit. If you get de-platformed, all that means is the rest of us think you're an asshole, and we're showing you the door.

You celebrate getting your way by a vocal, organized, and long game playing group threatening to flounce. Well, that was a precedent that I warned against as well because once you capitulate to a threat all you get is an empowered adversary. You get a temporary respite then a new threat.

Furthermore, you clearly misunderstand the point of the post. It was primarily about how systems that claim to have rules and claim to follow rules typically are exploited by those who claim to want rules and order. The truth is for many that rules and order is not what is desired. What is desired is a personably favored outcome prettied up with the perceptibly farcical veneer of objective rules.

Aka mob rules, regardless of fervent and reality ignoring denials. 201

[GreysonCarlisle]

because it sanctions an unpopular poster while ignoring clearly stated language that explicitly allows such behavior
...
What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule.

Don't care one way or another about Shodan. I don't know the man.

But if we're one step closer to realizing that bon mots about mental hospitals and mental illnesses are no longer funny, then bring on the mob rule. 202

[octopus]

Originally Posted by galen ubal

Relevant link.

The actual relevant link would be to the morgenstern post where this behavior was allowed. Try not to get sidetracked by a simile. Again, this isn’t about free speech. This is about ignoring clear as day precedent on the exact same subject.

I could probably find 100 or so jerkish posts and post them here. Probably get dinged with the new don’t post links to 100 jerkish things in a thread rule though. 203

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by octopus

Reality in this thread contradicts your assertion.

Show me the injuries. Show me the broken bones, the blood, the burned buildings, the lynchings.

Or show me people pissed off at jerkish behavior in a social setting.

Show me the former, and your "mob rule" business makes sense. Otherwise, it's just silly hyperbole. 204

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

Show me the injuries. Show me the broken bones, the blood, the burned buildings, the lynchings.

Or show me people pissed off at jerkish behavior in a social setting.

Show me the former, and your "mob rule" business makes sense. Otherwise, it's just silly hyperbole.

Right, online mobs are a completely novel concept!

I can’t show you any physical injuries from the post under complaint. I can show you where it was explicitly allowed.

Anyways, I probably should stop posting inconvenient facts that will be ignored aside from the fact that it was octopus posting them. Now if I happened to have another board full of supporters maybe I’d have a case since facts and reason are obviously irrelevant.

Maybe we can take it up in the Pit, no compulsion involved!, where the majority can post freely and the minority can’t. 205

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Once again, we see evidence the Pit is toxic. I agree that trying to moderate how mean a person can be is a challenge. Allowing some insults inevitably leads to allowing all insults, or else drawing arbitrary lines.

The argument for it is the idea that somehow it serves as a "safety valve" allowing posters to vent their frustrations and then return to the civil parts of the board. But it doesn't work that way. Instead, it causes complaints to fester and bad feelings to grow. And that doesn't stay contained in the Pit. Just look at this thread, or any thread in ATMB about moderation. Every single one at some point has to admonish someone for insults. And how many are closed because they devolve into sniping matches? ...

So, retain the Pit as a place for rants about life or the world, but do not allow insults of board members.

I concur, well worded! 206

[D'Anconia]

Originally Posted by jz78817

If you get de-platformed, all that means is the rest of us think you're an asshole, and we're showing you the door.

"WE" don't get to show people the door, that's the mods. 207

[DSeid]

Originally Posted by octopus

You folks who celebrate a contrived outcome because it sanctions an unpopular poster while ignoring clearly stated language that explicitly allows such behavior are missing the big picture. You know I get a lot of grief about support for unpleasant speech by unpleasant people but that’s because I understand that it’s important for a society that professes to desire procedure, rules, codes of conduct, regulations, etc in order to have predictability to actually have members that advocate for what is claimed to be desired. What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule.

Really no.

Social norms are made by groups expressing what they do and do not find acceptable within their social group.

That's not mob rule, that's human interaction.

I cannot say with certainty that my take on it is not colored by the fact that Shodan otherwise behaves so jerkishly, but insulting someone regarding their identified mental illness, is, IMHO, something reprehensible enough that it should be over the line. An immediate apology would have likely deserved a benefit of the doubt and slack cut ... but not immediately recognizing that such was a reasonable human thing to do eliminates that benefit.

Yeah good call.

But I do still do wonder why those not prepared for stepping in these piles of shit walk in the Pit? I never saw it as a safety release valve - more as a containment field. Those of us who don't want to deal with posters being ugly can just not go there, with tighter moderation to be had elsewhere. But yes it is still a mud fight pit, not one that you throw bricks in.

And really sturm and drang over one warning? "Popular" or "unpopular" one warning is not a big deal if you are not otherwise a recalcitrant jerk who will keep getting more. 208

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by octopus

Right, online mobs are a completely novel concept!

I'm certainly not accusing you of coming up with that absurd analogy yourself. I'm just accusing you of trotting out an old, ridiculous bit of hyperbole, time after time after time. "Mob rule" as shorthand for normal social behavior (i.e., telling jerks to go away) is one of the sillier things that people do in order to defend bad behavior.

Originally Posted by DSeid

I cannot say with certainty that my take on it is not colored by the fact that Shodan otherwise behaves so jerkishly, but insulting someone regarding their identified mental illness, is, IMHO, something reprehensible enough that it should be over the line.

I'm pretty sure I can. I had lots of cordial conversations with morgenstern before he stepped over that line. It's a pretty clear line. I'm glad the board is recognizing it now, and really really hope they'll continue doing so going forward. 209

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness

"Mob rule" as shorthand for normal social behavior (i.e., telling jerks to go away) is one of the sillier things that people do in order to defend bad behavior.

I would have agreed with you had I not just come home from being chased out of the local minimart by a frenzied mob of SJWs who seized upon me for NO REASON. I was minding my own business, masturbating in the produce aisle, as you do, and before I knew it...

(before you judge me, you should have seen those shameless, slutty cantaloupes) 210

[crowmanyclouds]

And here I thought we were bees or something, turns out we're kangaroos!

CMC fnord! 211

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Bone

The biggest complaint seems to be that Shodan knew it should have known about a posters background and therefore this insult was somehow off limits. Generally speaking, why? If we allow insults in the Pit, what is the line where the insult is too insulting? That doesn't seem like a workable rule (excepting hate speech because there is a separate rule for that).

Should we expect that insults are all meant in jest, and if they are actually hurtful then they should be limited? That seems like a pretty nebulous standard. For those that think this item was beyond the pale, I challenge you to craft a rule (beyond don't be a jerk) that would capture this item yet not be entirely problematic. If there is something workable, we can consider it.

Because he knowingly used someone's mental illness and trauma as a means to attack them.

This is something that, even in real life, is considered beyond the pale. Even in a context where you are allowed to throw insults, some types of insults are considered to cross the line.

As evidence this line is true, I offer what happened when Trump insulted that reporter by mocking his disability. Such was considered beyond the pale, even after he had been attacking people left and right. Such is clearly seen by society as something that goes further, that crosses an additional line

I also note this line has been brought up in ATMB before. When Morgenstern did the same thing to Chimera, many Dopers argued it crossed a line, even in the Pit.

This isn't the only such line, of course. You mentioned hate speech. There are also a couple interrelated lines that are banned in the Pit: threatening violence or wishing harm/death upon a poster. Even in a context where we allow insults, that is considered to cross the line. You also can't reveal private information about a poster. These and other such lines are written into the Pit Rules.

Severe mental illness is a trauma. Using that trauma to attack someone hurts them psychologically, in ways that insulting them for saying something stupid does not. I do not ask for calling out behaviors to be forbidden, just directly using a mental illness (or, hell, a physical disability) as a way to attack someone.

As Ed said back then, the purpose is "not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even [in the Pit]." It's not about insulting people too much, but about things that decent people would never do, even when allowed to insult people. 212

[octopus]

Well, if we are using Ed’s words as some sort of precedent... wait we aren’t. I just need to ask Tuba about the obvious double standards. 213

[asahi]

Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man

Meh, I don’t like what Shodan said, but Huey Freeman was allowed to say worse on a daily basis for several months.

Huey Freeman ultimately got banned, and the thread that started the beginning of Huey's end was one in which Huey referred to Shodan's "imported child."

And everyone, even people who didn't like Shodan, come to Shodan's defense because Huey had somehow "attacked a child," which was total horse bleep of course because I highly doubt Shodan's adopted child reads SDMB. It was an attack on Shodan, to get under his skin. Everyone condemned Huey widely, called him a "racist" for it, and I'm convinced tried to drive him off the site, which they succeeded in doing. Again, I never did defend the comment; it was a disgusting thing to say, but Huey was so widely and repeatedly attacked that he was ultimately, I think, baited into getting himself banned.

But here we have Shodan, months later, directly attempting to make a person with mental health issues distressed. I think this is worse than what Huey did -- like far worse. Ever stop to consider how many veterans commit suicide?! It's not a small number. This is a horrible post. One of the worst I've seen on this site. 214

[octopus]

Do you remember what he got banned for? Posting too much in the Pit! Why was he posting so much in the Pit? Because he was attacked in the Pit. The real reason he was banned is the same reason Shodan got a warning. A finger held to the wind detected a Giraffe-a-cane. At least let’s be transparent with the obvious double standards. 215

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by octopus

A finger held to the wind detected a Giraffe-a-cane.

Stop trying to make BoardWar happen. It's not going to happen. 216

[Johnny Bravo]

Originally Posted by octopus

Why was he posting so much in the Pit? Because he was attacked in the Pit.

No. Huey only posted in the pit because he knew his preferred method of 'discourse' would get him banned in other fora. He was very upfront about that. 217

[octopus]

Originally Posted by MrDibble

Stop trying to make BoardWar happen. It's not going to happen.

Your 120 plus threads shitting on this board is proof to the contrary. Stirring up trouble, the fact that the mods here participate there, the fact that the mods here are obviously influenced by discussions they have there, all point to a very unhealthy relationship. I’m sure precedent of rules matters when it’s convenient just as they don’t matter when it’s convenient. 218

[raventhief]

Originally Posted by octopus

Your 120 plus threads shitting on this board is proof to the contrary. Stirring up trouble, the fact that the mods here participate there, the fact that the mods here are obviously influenced by discussions they have there, all point to a very unhealthy relationship. I’m sure precedent of rules matters when it’s convenient just as they don’t matter when it’s convenient.

You do realize that the Giraffe board is mostly inhabited by dopers, right? I've been in both boards for a long time, and there's not than just the snark threads you see as just so problematic. Lately, I've felt a lot more welcome there than here. 219

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by octopus

What you folks are actually asking for, and have achieved twice, is mob rule.

There is no "mob". We're a primarily Italian social organization.

Originally Posted by Kobal2

Good man/woman/dog. Buy yourself a beer, and consider it's on me.

Miller, grab yourself a highlife, on me. 220

[Bone]

Originally Posted by octopus

Your 120 plus threads shitting on this board is proof to the contrary. Stirring up trouble, the fact that the mods here participate there, the fact that the mods here are obviously influenced by discussions they have there, all point to a very unhealthy relationship. I’m sure precedent of rules matters when it’s convenient just as they don’t matter when it’s convenient.

Do you remember this?

Originally Posted by engineer_comp_geek

Moderator Note



Let's keep Giraffe out of this, please.

221

[octopus]

Originally Posted by Bone

Do you remember this?

Precedent matters now? I guess I’ll be warned or banned since I don’t have the crowd behind me. 222

[Sunny Daze]

Do you remember that thread where you posted about "time outs" for members to cool off? Maybe you should check off the board for a bit. 223

[Atamasama]

Originally Posted by Sunny Daze

Do you remember that thread where you posted about "time outs" for members to cool off? Maybe you should check off the board for a bit.

I won’t lie, I’ve done this myself a couple of times. For me it really helps. If posting feels stressful take a break.

ETA: I say this as someone who doesn’t dislike you octopus, this isn’t a sneaky way to “get rid of” you. 224

[DSeid]

Originally Posted by octopus

... I guess I’ll be warned or banned since I don’t have the crowd behind me.

I've made this point before and I will I am sure end up making it again - whether or not it does, the fact that your political leanings are under-represented on this board IMHO SHOULD give you slightly more slack than otherwise. Supply demand being what it is you are more valuable than another left of center moderate like me. Too few views from the Right and the GD and Elections discussions at least become mere self-affirmations. Meanwhile we have enough of the Far left to represent those perspectives

AND keeping this a place that facilitates actual discussions (rather than sniping or dishonestly shitting things up alone) cannot be lost. Outside of the Pit that has to be job one; diversity (political and gender and otherwise) a close second. Without actual discussions of substance the GD and Elections fora have nothing of real value to offer at all. Shut 'em down at that point. For however long the lights are on it is more for the other fora anyway. (Despite how self-important we who play in those fora think we are.)

Within the Pit discussion is secondary and sniping within some broad realm of human decency is the point. "The crowd" is how that broad realm of human decency is functionally defined dynamically. That is not based on political beliefs.

Anyway I'd think you'd be concerned about a crowd behind you ... thinking they'd be carrying pitchforks and torches! 225

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by octopus

I guess I’ll be warned or banned since I don’t have the crowd behind me.

How's the view from up on that cross? That you lovingly hand-crafted for yourself, I might add. 226

[Fiveroptic]

Originally Posted by Shodan

I will try not to insult you in that way again, or anyone else.

Fucking hell, why did you even bother to apologize? What a pathetic, shitty apology. 227

[thorny locust]

Thinking about the function of the Pit:

It seems to me that the Pit can serve two justifiable and useful functions:

One, to let people tackle issues about things in the world outside the Boards that are making them furious, without having to carefully watch every word that they say, including both the issues of swearwords and those of insults. As there are words that are out of bounds even in the Pit (the one starting with N comes to mind), it's not entirely unreasonable that there might be insults that are also out of bounds even in the Pit, though working out which ones could well be tricky.

I think that can be a useful function, though I'm not sure that it's necessary. I personally find it useful to have to put my anger into words that clarify the issues in my mind, even or maybe especially when my initial reaction to something is just 'how seventeen-expletives dare they!'


Two, to let people call out other board members for, and to discuss, cases in which board members are or are perceived as lying, trolling, and/or bigoted, in a fashion that can't be done just by reporting a post. Call it a non-moderators version of the mod loop, maybe?

I think this is a useful and important function; but that it might be even more useful if it were done without the use of, how do I say this, side insults? That is, calling somebody a liar is itself an insult; so it's impractical to say that there should be some way to discuss the fact that a poster is, or is being perceived as, lying but it has to be done without insulting that poster. But it's possible to call somebody a liar, as well as to respond indignantly to being so called, without throwing in a batch of gratuitous additional insults. The Pit currently allows the unconnected insults anyway, but also isn't supposed to allow being a jerk; which is kind of a contradiction.

Allowing people to have a place to call out liars, trolls, and/or bigots, and to discuss why particular language looks like lying, trolling, and/or bigotry and whether or not particular posters deliberately used it that way, seems that it ought to discourage trolling and reduce bigoted language. And it allows people who aren't mods to discuss such issues with the mods in conversations that involve multiple non-mod people who can see the whole conversation, which strikes me as being extremely useful. But allowing people to have a place to throw out random insults seems like it would encourage trolling and right-up-to-the-line use of bigoted language.

Do people here think it would be useful and possible to have a Pit that allows only the use of insults directly related to and necessary to the specific topic of the thread? 228

[engineer_comp_geek]

Moderator Note

Originally Posted by octopus

Precedent matters now? I guess I’ll be warned or banned since I don’t have the crowd behind me.

You will be warned or banned because you keep doing something that you were told not to do. Whether or not you have the crowd behind you is irrelevant.

What happens on giraffeboard is giraffeboard's problem. If you have a disagreement with them, deal with it on their board. Do not bring giraffe issues over here.
229

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by thorny locust

Thinking about the function of the Pit:

It seems to me that the Pit can serve two justifiable and useful functions:

One, to let people tackle issues about things in the world outside the Boards that are making them furious, without having to carefully watch every word that they say, including both the issues of swearwords and those of insults....

Two, to let people call out other board members for, and to discuss, cases in which board members are or are perceived as lying, trolling, and/or bigoted, in a fashion that can't be done just by reporting a post. Call it a non-moderators version of the mod loop, maybe?
...

Allowing people to have a place to call out liars, trolls, and/or bigots, and to discuss why particular language looks like lying, trolling, and/or bigotry and whether or not particular posters deliberately used it that way, seems that it ought to discourage trolling and reduce bigoted language. ...

I like a good rant.


"seems that it ought to discourage trolling and reduce bigoted language.", no, it doesnt, not at all. I mean, troll wanna be fed and the Pit feeds them. In fact I think the Pit actually increases trolling, etc. 230

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by DSeid

Would you be willing to share with the rest of us how you, at this somewhat belated point, came to the conclusion that this apology was the right thing to do?

What changed from your initial responses to the criticism of your behavior to now?

Don’t get me wrong, better late than never, but still curious.

Regardless,

DSeid

It will have to stand on its own. Take for whatever it's worth.

The SDMB is what it is, and it isn't gonna change.

Lots more, but upon edit, there's no point.

Regards,
Shodan 231

[SmartAleq]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

I like a good rant.


"seems that it ought to discourage trolling and reduce bigoted language.", no, it doesnt, not at all. I mean, troll wanna be fed and the Pit feeds them. In fact I think the Pit actually increases trolling, etc.

And yet, oddly enough, the vast majority of trolling on this board occurs outside the Pit, in places where troll behavior is protected by the weird tangle of rules that mostly function to prevent those posting in good faith with challenging and identifying those who are trolling. I think they call this "irony" or something. 232

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Shodan

I will try not to insult you in that way again, or anyone else.

Regards,
Shodan

Originally Posted by Fiveroptic

Fucking hell, why did you even bother to apologize? What a pathetic, shitty apology.

Disagree. It ticked all the boxes of what an apology is (acknowledgement, acceptance of responsibility, contrition, and resolve to do better going forward).

And I should HOPE that no one mistakes me for a Shodan umm, apologist (you should pardon the expression). 233

[DSeid]

Originally Posted by Shodan

It will have to stand on its own. Take for whatever it's worth.

The SDMB is what it is, and it isn't gonna change.

Lots more, but upon edit, there's no point. ...

No one can force you to share your thought processes. So yes we will have to conclude what we do sans any additional insight from you. I remain glad that you realized that an apology was indicated even belatedly.

The second claim though is a clearly false statement. Well it is what it is, but it is a changing thing. One change is that there is now a more clearly articulated understanding of what behavior is in fact too reprehensible even in the Pit. And if octopus is correct the understanding now is different than how Ed Zotti had declared it to be. If that is a change, a break with precedent, that's not a bad thing. 234

[engineer_comp_geek]

Moderator Action

Originally Posted by MrDibble

How's the view from up on that cross? That you lovingly hand-crafted for yourself, I might add.

Originally Posted by Fiveroptic

Fucking hell, why did you even bother to apologize? What a pathetic, shitty apology.

This is ATMB, not the Pit.

Since the issue has basically been resolved and we are getting too many comments like this, I am going to close this thread. If anyone believes that there are still outstanding issues that need to be discussed or has another compelling reason to re-open the thread, send me a PM and we can discuss it.

Thread closed.
235