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Urbanredneck · 12-02-2019, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz

How many decades ago did you scrimp and save your way to an education? How much more expensive is college now than it was then? When will conservatives stop using hipsters getting gender studies degrees as a strawman to avoid having an actual, honest discussion about the crushing cost of college?

When democrats get over this idea of handing all the colleges blank checks and telling new students to pursue whatever degree they want, take as long as they want, put out as little effort as they want, and STILL we will pay for it.

Now can we backtrack and come up with something in the middle? Can we come up with scholarship programs tied to things like need and ability? Can we come up with ways to control the costs of college administrations? Can scholarships be tied to GPA and setting goals for making adequate progress? Can we tie scholarships to the needs of the community at large?

I think 529 College Savings Plans are a start.

steronz · 12-02-2019, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck

When democrats get over this idea of handing all the colleges blank checks and telling new students to pursue whatever degree they want, take as long as they want, put out as little effort as they want, and STILL we will pay for it.

Now can we backtrack and come up with something in the middle? Can we come up with scholarship programs tied to things like need and ability? Can we come up with ways to control the costs of college administrations? Can scholarships be tied to GPA and setting goals for making adequate progress? Can we tie scholarships to the needs of the community at large?

I think 529 College Savings Plans are a start.

What if in response to your "middle of the road" suggestions here I dropped some giant, stinky turd of an argument? Maybe something like, "If you think college is expensive maybe don't get $100,000 Gender Studies degrees!"

If we can talk about middle ground for a moment, before I was completely jaded, I thought the following was a good place to start between Democrats and Republicans: colleges have gotten way too expensive for normal people to afford, and the free market solutions (for-profit colleges) are not adequately solving the problem.

Now that I'm completely jaded, here's a comment I made all the way back on page 3, in response to Shodan:

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz

I feel like that must be the Reaganite in you. Colleges, you see, are liberal breeding grounds that infect our youth with terrible progressive ideas. Fewer people should go to college. You can get a good job in a trade without a college degree after all.

Modern conservatism isn't very friendly to the idea of affordable college, regardless of how it's paid for.

And you, Urbanredneck, did exactly what I would expect a modern conservative would do -- shit on college as a concept. Pro-tip, never, ever use the words "gender studies" in an argument unless you're actually talking about a specific person or degree program. It's a very, very tired conservative trope that we've all heard before, it's not clever, and it just makes me think you hate college. I've got 3 kids and 12 nieces and nephews all staring down the barrel of very expensive STEM degrees. Something needs to be done. I don't think "free college for everyone" is the best idea, but if your response is to suggest that maybe they don't get a gender studies degree, I'm going to assume we don't have any common ground to stand on.

The Tooth · 12-02-2019, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RioRico

Where you have experience, I'll value your views. If not, I won't force myself to consider your opinions relevant. We may agree, or not. But (metaphor alert!) not being a painter, I would not expect an experienced muralist to value my disagreements over pigments.

That's what I mean by "I don't need to heed their views".

As for my own opinions: Imprisoning refugees is illegal; interring refugee children is abominable; and raising tariffs (taxes paid by Americans) seems unwise but I'm not economist enough to argue that, so I don't.

As I said, I devalue the inexperienced opinion, not the person. But I'll pay greater heed to the views of not only military vets but all who put their lives at stake for the greater good - police and firefighters, Doctors Without Borders - I hope you get the picture.

You seem to hold opinions in high regard if they're held by someone you admire rather than if they're supported by the facts. Wasn't John McCain a pilot? Does being a pilot mean his opinion on interstate trade or immigration quotas has weight? Does it mean he made good decisions when he decided to vote in favour of Trump's cabinet choices? If so, how?

Urbanredneck · 12-02-2019, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steronz

And you, Urbanredneck, did exactly what I would expect a modern conservative would do -- shit on college as a concept. Pro-tip, never, ever use the words "gender studies" in an argument unless you're actually talking about a specific person or degree program. It's a very, very tired conservative trope that we've all heard before, it's not clever, and it just makes me think you hate college. I've got 3 kids and 12 nieces and nephews all staring down the barrel of very expensive STEM degrees. Something needs to be done. I don't think "free college for everyone" is the best idea, but if your response is to suggest that maybe they don't get a gender studies degree, I'm going to assume we don't have any common ground to stand on.

First of all I understand, I have a kid about to start college (well trade school).

But your right I have to admit I am frustrated with colleges.

Maybe we should look at reforming the whole system and getting rid of the monopoly colleges have where they hold the keys to getting a job? Why does everyone have to go to college anyways? Why cant regular school end at 10th grade and have students go to trade schools or internships for the final 2 years?

Well it isnt going to happen because the colleges have this damn monopoly where a person almost HAS to go to a college. Then their is degree inflation. While it used to be adequate to get a BA in most fields, now you have to have a Masters. It's crazy!

As for your above case, why couldnt they get more college credit in high school so college is at the most 2 years for their STEM degrees? I hope they can work it out so they wont have to take out so many loans.

BTW, HERE is a college thats free, students work at on campus jobs. Why cant more colleges be like this?

RioRico · 12-03-2019, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tooth

You seem to hold opinions in high regard if they're held by someone you admire rather than if they're supported by the facts. Wasn't John McCain a pilot? Does being a pilot mean his opinion on interstate trade or immigration quotas has weight? Does it mean he made good decisions when he decided to vote in favour of Trump's cabinet choices? If so, how?

No. It means I'll listen closer to one who has put their life at stake for the country - before I vehemently disagree. As for McCain, I also consider his rather severe personal and military shortcomings as part of the package.

Another BIL of mine was an Army Ranger. I love and respect him, and quite thoroughly disagree with his politics. But I listen.

steronz · 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanredneck

First of all I understand, I have a kid about to start college (well trade school).

But your right I have to admit I am frustrated with colleges.

Maybe we should look at reforming the whole system and getting rid of the monopoly colleges have where they hold the keys to getting a job? Why does everyone have to go to college anyways? Why cant regular school end at 10th grade and have students go to trade schools or internships for the final 2 years?

Well it isnt going to happen because the colleges have this damn monopoly where a person almost HAS to go to a college. Then their is degree inflation. While it used to be adequate to get a BA in most fields, now you have to have a Masters. It's crazy!

As for your above case, why couldnt they get more college credit in high school so college is at the most 2 years for their STEM degrees? I hope they can work it out so they wont have to take out so many loans.

BTW, HERE is a college thats free, students work at on campus jobs. Why cant more colleges be like this?

One of the reasons people talk past each other so much is because one side will talk about what a person should do that's best for them, and the other side will talk about what policies are best for society. The two are not mutually exclusive, and it doesn't help to ignore one over the other.

Consider a national package delivery company that has had a string of deaths and injuries from mechanics working on poorly supported delivery trucks. Friends, family, and coworkers of mechanics might well advise them to be extra careful around trucks, to double check the jack safeties, to always make sure to work with a buddy. All of that might be true and prudent advice, but there's going to be another discussion at the executive level -- are mechanics provided enough training, is the safety equipment adequate, are employees overworked or encouraged to cut corners to save time. The problem is that while being extra cautious around heavy equipment might work for an individual, if nothing else changes with the company culture, people will still get hurt and die. It's just human nature. Some problems need to be solved from the top.

Likewise, all of the advise you listed is great for individuals, but college isn't stupid expensive right now because hundreds of thousands of 18 year olds aren't heading sound advice. Something else is going on, and it's going to take large scale policy changes to fix.

Now, 20 years ago, common ground might have meant both sides want to fix the high cost of college, but Republicans didn't see that as the job of the federal government while Democrats did. So Republicans would advocate for state level programs, or private charities, or for-profit colleges, and Democrats would advocate for federal grants and loans, and there'd be room for compromise in the middle there -- some federal grants, some state programs, relaxed restrictions for for-profit colleges.

Didn't work, mind you, so Democrats are now pushing for more radical ideas to fix college and Republicans are apparently leaving that common ground altogether, suggesting that maybe college as we know it isn't worth saving. To me, THAT'S a radical idea, but it's becoming more and more mainstream in the Republican party. And I don't know where we go from there.