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  #51  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:37 AM
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Zimmer. Please fire Zimmer.

Like the Bears firing Lovie Smith, it would warm the cockles of my heart beyond recognition.
  #52  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by racepug View Post
Yeah, I know. Obviously we were all jazzed by that and the win over the defending league champions. But I still have a general objection to teams with losing records making the playoffs. But I guess that's just me.
Eh, it's an issue with scheduling. Not everyone gets to play in the AFCE and be guaranteed 4-6 wins every year over perennial mediocrities (at best). Some teams get to play in divisions like the NFCW of recent years. Combine that with the rotational inter- and intra-conference games, and you can get a nightmare scenario where an entire division beats themselves up and gets to play the best of the best around the league as well. In 2010, the NFCW

Want a home playoff game? Win your division. Of a team's 16 games, they share 14 of them with their division. Given that both sub-.500 division winners covered the home team spread en route to a wildcard round victory, I'd say it's working pretty well.
  #53  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:12 AM
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What got into the Bungles? Just seeing the score at the bottom of the real game, but looks like some of them showed up this game?
Eh. They were playing against the Jets. As I recall when "Nawlins" won only one game in 1980 their one victim was the Jets. Aside from their famous victory in S.B. III the New York Jets really don't have much to hang their hat on from over the years.
  #54  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:38 AM
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Eh, it's an issue with scheduling. Not everyone gets to play in the AFCE and be guaranteed 4-6 wins every year over perennial mediocrities (at best). Some teams get to play in divisions like the NFCW of recent years. Combine that with the rotational inter- and intra-conference games, and you can get a nightmare scenario where an entire division beats themselves up and gets to play the best of the best around the league as well. In 2010, the NFCW

Want a home playoff game? Win your division. Of a team's 16 games, they share 14 of them with their division. Given that both sub-.500 division winners covered the home team spread en route to a wildcard round victory, I'd say it's working pretty well.
Well, it's true that the N.F.L.'s uneven scheduling can have something to do with that but just because a team goes 3 - 3 or 4 - 2 in its division doesn't necessarily mean that it's because its division is full of strong teams. It could just be that the division is full of mediocre teams. That season that Seattle entered the playoffs with a 7 - 9 record only because they won their division wasn't because all the other teams in the division were great, it's because no team in that division that year was particularly good; as I recall people around the country called that division the "NFC Worst" that year and with good reason.
  #55  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:17 PM
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losing to Washington was so bad it got Ron Rivera fired

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/sta...56575163891719
  #56  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:33 PM
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losing to Washington was so bad it got Ron Rivera fired

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/sta...56575163891719
Iíll be honest, I thought Riverboat Ron would be gone last year. Instead they fired a couple of lower tier coaches in week 16. Makes sense to me.
  #57  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:08 PM
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losing to Washington was so bad it got Ron Rivera fired

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/sta...56575163891719
The two teams ("Nawlins" and St. Louis) that lost to Tampa Bay at the end of the 1977 season after the Buccaneers started their existence 0 - 26 each fired their head coach (Hank Stram and Don Coryell, respectively).
  #58  
Old 12-03-2019, 07:25 PM
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A thought just occurred to me... Who are the Vikings going to fire this time?
I don't think there's any real shame in losing to a (now) 10 - 2 Seahawks team in prime time in Seattle. Now, had they lost to the "Natives," the Dolphins, or the "Bungles," on the other hand. . .
  #59  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:39 PM
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I don't think there's any real shame in losing to a (now) 10 - 2 Seahawks team in prime time in Seattle. Now, had they lost to the "Natives," the Dolphins, or the "Bungles," on the other hand. . .
Good point. Last year on MNF they lost to an 8-5 Seahawks, getting crushed 21-7, and those 7 points were in garbage time. This year they were 17-10 at halftime and managed to crawl up from 34-17 to finish at 37-30. They made a real fight of it in a game against a team that is tied for the best record in the NFL. Much less shame this time.

Plus they are only a game behind the Packers and still have a real chance of winning the division. Even if they donít catch the Packers, theyíre very likely to be a wild card. Last year the MNF loss put them at 6-6-1 and their playoff chances were slim; and they were 2.5 games behind the Bears in the divisional race as well. So the situations arenít that comparable.
  #60  
Old 12-04-2019, 01:20 AM
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I see it having two reasons...

1) It forces rivalries. Which sometimes works, and sometimes doesnít. Which team in New Englandís division has been their big rival this past decade or so?

2) It makes division games ďspecialĒ in the regular season. Just like Monday/Thursday/Sunday night football, the NFL likes it when games have more on the line to increase interest. Divisional games are another way to ensure that some games are more impactful.

Iím sure there are other reasons but those 2 seem the most logical, especially if you consider that the NFL is in the entertainment business and their decisions always have the end goal of getting more viewers/grabbing more attention.
Nobody. That's the one thing that takes away, a little bit, from all the Patriots' S.B. titles in my opinion - the fact that their division rivals haven't provided much competition for them for almost all of the last couple of decades. How three teams from the same division can stay so mediocre (at best) to lousy for so long all at the same time is something that I cannot explain.
  #61  
Old 12-04-2019, 09:29 AM
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Nobody. That's the one thing that takes away, a little bit, from all the Patriots' S.B. titles in my opinion - the fact that their division rivals haven't provided much competition for them for almost all of the last couple of decades. How three teams from the same division can stay so mediocre (at best) to lousy for so long all at the same time is something that I cannot explain.
All of them? Their recent ones, sure, but for the 01, 03, & 04 seasons the AFC East wasn't notably terrible. In 2001, Miami was tied with the Pats at 11-5 but wound up the wildcard, and the Jets at 10-6 were the other wildcard. In 2003, Miami was 10-6 and was eliminated from the wildcard by a tiebreaker. In 2004 the Jets were a wildcard team at 10-6 and the Bills went 9-7. Only the Colts stayed terrible over that 4 year period. Looking at the stats, the AFC East wasn't much different from the other 5 divisions.
  #62  
Old 12-04-2019, 10:18 AM
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Nobody. That's the one thing that takes away, a little bit, from all the Patriots' S.B. titles in my opinion - the fact that their division rivals haven't provided much competition for them for almost all of the last couple of decades. How three teams from the same division can stay so mediocre (at best) to lousy for so long all at the same time is something that I cannot explain.
I don't buy this argument at all, and I say that as someone who dislikes Brady, Bellichik, and the Patriots quite a lot. Sure, the other teams in the division have been pretty bad over the last decade, but the Patriots have been good against basically everyone they played.

Here's their record against non-division opponents over the past ten years:

2009 6-4
2010 9-1
2011 8-2
2012 6-4
2013 8-2
2014 8-2
2015 8-2
2016 9-1
2017 8-2
2018 6-4

Basically, they tend to go 8-2 or 9-1 against non-division opponents. That sort of performance against non-division opponents will get most teams into the playoffs in most years.

They've had 3 mediocre years, where they went 6-4, and in two of those years the Patriots were eliminated in the playoffs before the Superbowl. The only time they've had a relatively bad year against non-division opposition and still made or won the Superbowl was last season.

You can only control your own performance, and you can only beat the teams that you actually face on the football field. It's not the Patriots' fault that the other teams in their division haven't been any good, and New England has still been excellent against all opposition.
  #63  
Old 12-04-2019, 10:31 AM
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Exactly that - you can only control your own performance, not scheduling.

On the flip side, what if your division is both very strong and evenly matched top to bottom? You end up beating each other up and lesser teams can end up getting a playoff berth over them.

I understand the desire not to let division winners get an automatic playoff berth, but in that case, division scheduling cannot be allowed to stand either. If fans want to keep their rivalry games, inequity automatically gets built into the schedule for playoff qualification and it has to be accounted for somehow.
  #64  
Old 12-04-2019, 01:27 PM
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All of them? Their recent ones, sure, but for the 01, 03, & 04 seasons the AFC East wasn't notably terrible. In 2001, Miami was tied with the Pats at 11-5 but wound up the wildcard, and the Jets at 10-6 were the other wildcard. In 2003, Miami was 10-6 and was eliminated from the wildcard by a tiebreaker. In 2004 the Jets were a wildcard team at 10-6 and the Bills went 9-7. Only the Colts stayed terrible over that 4 year period. Looking at the stats, the AFC East wasn't much different from the other 5 divisions.
Oh, sure - hit me with FACTS!
  #65  
Old 12-04-2019, 01:29 PM
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I don't buy this argument at all, and I say that as someone who dislikes Brady, Bellichik, and the Patriots quite a lot. Sure, the other teams in the division have been pretty bad over the last decade, but the Patriots have been good against basically everyone they played.

Here's their record against non-division opponents over the past ten years:

2009 6-4
2010 9-1
2011 8-2
2012 6-4
2013 8-2
2014 8-2
2015 8-2
2016 9-1
2017 8-2
2018 6-4

Basically, they tend to go 8-2 or 9-1 against non-division opponents. That sort of performance against non-division opponents will get most teams into the playoffs in most years.

They've had 3 mediocre years, where they went 6-4, and in two of those years the Patriots were eliminated in the playoffs before the Superbowl. The only time they've had a relatively bad year against non-division opposition and still made or won the Superbowl was last season.

You can only control your own performance, and you can only beat the teams that you actually face on the football field. It's not the Patriots' fault that the other teams in their division haven't been any good, and New England has still been excellent against all opposition.
I've actually become a huge admirer of all that B.B. and T.B. have done over the last 20 years, a position that I've converted to over time. Your information is helpful. Thank you.
  #66  
Old 12-04-2019, 04:48 PM
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Why have divisions at all in that case? There should be some reason, other than tradition.

That said, while I'm ok with reserving a playoff spot for division winners, I'd also support 7-9 or 8-8 division winners having to be the road team on wild card weekend (assuming the wild cards have better records).

I'd even consider setting the seeding for the wild card games by overall record regardless of division standing. The top 2 seeds wouldn't be affected, though the top 2 division winners also usually have the top 2 records in each league anyway.
Well. Whaddya know? https://www.yahoo.com/sports/revised...155827746.html
  #67  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:27 PM
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I like the idea that in wild card games, it’s a home game for whoever has a better record. So for example if a 12-4 49ers goes to play an 8-8 Cowboys, it takes place in Santa Clara, not Dallas. Just for wild card games though. So winning your division guarantees that you’re playing in the postseason regardless of how good your record was, but doesn’t guarantee that you’ll be playing at home in the postseason.

That seems like a fair compromise.
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