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Old 12-02-2019, 11:21 AM
Corry El is offline
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The fact that of the 11 nations of North America, none of them is based on African-Americans’ culture?
The region of the Dakota's, Wyoming, eastern Montana etc. would also be the 'nation of the Horse Culture natives' where that culture dominated down to the present...if the European settlers had not displaced and dominated those people. I don't think it's 'unfair exclusion' to now classify no whole region of the US as dominated by native culture. No whole region is, because the European settlers supplanted that culture.

Somewhat likewise for African Americans. Segregation, legal and practical, meant and to an arguable degree still means that African American culture (however it might be defined) dominates in enclaves. But not in any whole region. The whole region with highest % African American population is the Deep South, or more concentrated still in the so called Black Belt region around the Mississippi (originally because of the soil, though the term can have a double meaning). But the dominant culture there was that of the whites, who remained dominant until recently (if one even accepts that things have changed a lot recently). Saying that the way things get done in the state of MS differently than MI or MT is handed down from an African American cultural history in MS is clearly inaccurate IMO.

I think you can legitimately criticize the *regional* 'cultural nation' concept of that article as being a very incomplete description of cultural geography, because it ignores enclaves, and the sum of the effect of a bunch of enclaves, as in for example the noticeable effect of African American cultural contributions on general US culture, which isn't new. However not naming a large geographic 'African American cultural nation' isn't unfair exclusion. There is no such whole region, due to past unfair exclusion.

Last edited by Corry El; 12-02-2019 at 11:23 AM.
  #52  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:27 AM
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I don't think it's 'unfair exclusion' to now classify no whole region of the US as dominated by native culture. No whole region is, because the European settlers supplanted that culture.
It does, however, expose a fundamental flaw in the concept behind the whole book, one that effectively renders the idea of "11 nations" meaningless.
  #53  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:43 PM
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In my town (Melbourne), the traditional question was "What school did you go to?". Because the answer to that enable us to slot you into your culture and tribe. . . . .
I've known towns where they ask which church you go to, for similar reasons.

I vaguely remember an old article discussing how ad agencies divide the population according to what products they are likely to buy and what ad/sales approaches were most likely to work. These were not geographic divisions, exactly, although each sort of person was more likely to live different places.

I think one division was called rifles and pickups. I'm pretty sure the ad guys expected the groups to be fluid.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:53 PM
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Also, minor artistic quibble, Miami is more than "part of Spanish Caribbean", it is in fact the capital of South America.
What?
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:32 PM
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Interesting map. I wonder what the Canadians think of being subsumed into several of the US "nations"???

I can see the argument for varying cultures in different parts of the country, but at a minimum, some of the lines aren't quite right. I live in a DC suburb, in Virginia, and per the map we're part of the "tidewater" area. Culturally we're VERY different from anything more than about 50 miles south of us, much more like Maryland up through New Jersey. I hate when a computerized form asks a region and I have to put "south" because really, no DC suburb is truly "south". I'd argue that everything north of us in Maryland etc. would be part of Yankeedom vs Midlands - up to about halfway through New Jersey, and the eastern edge of Pennsylvania.

Reading a bit more of the article, it seems to focus on who originally settled the areas, NOT their current culture.

"New France" is "a pocket of liberalism nestled in the Deep South". Admittedly I've never spent time down there, but liberalism is NOT something I think of in coastal Louisiana etc. Yes, it may have a lot of French influence, but again, the map doesn't take into account how opinions have evolved over the years.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:41 PM
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The idea that Canadians in, say, Southern Ontario are part of a nation with western Oklahoma, but not upstate New York or Michigan, is preposterous, and makes me wonder how seriously this is meant to be taken.
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  #57  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:39 PM
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You also seem to be misunderstanding the label “the 11 nations of North America.” This is not a political map of the sovereign territory of the United States.
The heading reads "This map shows how the US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures".

Last I heard, the US did not encompass all of North America.
  #58  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:40 PM
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Albion's Seed and American Nations


In 1989, David Hackett Fischer published the classic Albion's seed, that very impressively and most academically soundly established that four separate waves of immigration from the British Isles created four distinct cultural "nations" within this country- each coming over at a different period in ENglish history, under different political and religious contexts, and created cultures that live on to this very day, despite generations of immigration and change. Puritan New England; (Yankeedom), the Cavaliers of the Chesapeake Bay region (little issue there between royalists and Cromwell), Delaware Valley Quakers, and then them damn borderlands Scott-Irish-English who had known nothing but continuous warfare for hundreds of years, who brought a clan based warrior culture and took it (and my progenitors) up into the mountains and became hillbillies with an attitude.
See: Wikipedia:
The four migrations are discussed in the four main chapters of the book:

East Anglia and the Netherlands to Massachusetts
The Exodus of the English Puritans (Pilgrims and Puritans influenced the Northeastern United States' corporate and educational culture)[4]
The South of England to Virginia
The Cavaliers and Indentured Servants (Gentry influenced the Southern United States' plantation culture)[5]
North Midlands to the Delaware Valley
The Friends' Migration (Quakers influenced the Middle Atlantic and Midwestern United States' industrial culture)[6]
Borderlands to the Backcountry
The Flight from North Britain (Scotch-Irish and border English influenced the Western United States' ranch culture and the Southern United States' common agrarian culture)


American Nations is an update, Colin Woodward, 2012, I think- he identifies 11 separate cultural groups in the current national mindset. This is a real effect.
I stumbled across Albion's seed, found it so explanatory of my backwoods upbringing (Think Hillbilly Elegy, but academic style) that I moved on to American Nations, reading as we speak.

I have read a whole lot of liberal/progressive despisement of those unsavory types that voted from the orange banana slug. Let me explain something to you about warrior culture. Not losing is all- against common sense, even losing life itself. I mean, think William Wallace. Bind that mindset with the deep south and some of these other cultures that do NOT reflect the community mindset of Yankeedom (New England and Upper California, and you begin to see how such a travesty could come to be. I was going to finish the book to bring it up, but I was beat to the (well, the map) punch. I have learned more about the politics of the United States in these two texts than almost everything else I have ever studied, combined. Example: The Dutch in what was to become new york sold the first African slaves. Slavery in the deep south was at first much milder in form that what it became, as culture and practices from Barbados and the rest of the British West Indies came to the US. Oh, and the oldest "nation" is El Norte- the Spanish of New Mexico, Arizona, parts of Baha- they see themselves as very distinct and different than Mexicans. These are 4-500 page, heavily annotated texts- I can't possibly do them justice.
But if you find yourself adrift in trying to grasp the political reality of the current blue state red state divide, I will guarantee you these texts will make some of it, if not make sense, at least show you the dividing lines in a way more superficial analysis cannot. Worth the time if you have it and you seriously want to understand.
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  #59  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:41 PM
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It does, however, expose a fundamental flaw in the concept behind the whole book, one that effectively renders the idea of "11 nations" meaningless.
I don't entirely agree. Like I said, defining 'cultural nations' as contiguous geographic regions is a quite limited description of cultural geography IMO. However it's not meaningless. Who mainly settled *and dominated* various areas of the US* is important to the dominant local culture in many cases. Again I believe it's a meaningful not meaningless insight that what's so different about NY is partly an echo of New Netherlands, though it's also that NY is so much more Jewish than the rest of the US, etc. It's a number of things, but the Dutch are part of it. Likewise there's no denying that original predominantly Scots-Irish settlement of Appalachia is part of what makes it distinct, true of the white South in general to some degree. More to it than original settlers of the region yes, meaningless no.

And in terms of those 'who settled' effects, it's not 'racist' to not have Native or African American regions as was the complaint as I read it. That's just historical reality. The Europeans dominated, not them.

*let's leave out 'nations' which cross the border with Canada or Mexico which introduces another big diluting factor, that places are part of different (actual) countries. Although I don't think the observation of the cultural similarity of 'mainstream' American upper Midwesterners and people from some parts of Canada is 'meaningless', it's kind of obvious actually. It's just even less of the whole picture once you're talking of people in actually different countries.
  #60  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Mama Zappa View Post
The heading reads "This map shows how the US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures".

Last I heard, the US did not encompass all of North America.
Both of these statements are true:

- This map depicts the 11 nations of North America (the United States, Mexico, and Canada)

- This map depicts the 11 nations of the United States (which constitutes a portion of North America)

Neither of these statements, taken together or separately, requires one to believe that Canada and Mexico have surrendered their sovereignty to the United States or that the United States encompasses all of North America.
  #61  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:40 PM
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It does, however, expose a fundamental flaw in the concept behind the whole book, one that effectively renders the idea of "11 nations" meaningless.
That it does, yes.
  #62  
Old 12-02-2019, 07:54 PM
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I know from experience that very, very few places are as homogeneous as this map implies.
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It does, however, expose a fundamental flaw in the concept behind the whole book, one that effectively renders the idea of "11 nations" meaningless.
Yes to both of these.

I could identify at least four distinctly different cultures within my county alone -- none of them adequately described by any of the supposed eleven; and all of them together still leaving a batch of people out. And this is one of the smallest-by-population counties in the state; and by standard demographics one of the most homogeneous.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:04 AM
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I could identify at least four distinctly different cultures within my county alone -- none of them adequately described by any of the supposed eleven; and all of them together still leaving a batch of people out. And this is one of the smallest-by-population counties in the state; and by standard demographics one of the most homogeneous.
You're in upstate NY. I'm in central California. My county sounds much like yours - tiny, homogeneous, and yet with several distinct societies unlike any of "the eleven". Curious.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:52 AM
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It's certainly interesting and I think true to an extent, but I think the greater divide in the US is urban v rural, regardless of the region. I'm here in Yankeedom in a suburb of a college town so it's in line with what the description of Yankeedom is all about, but if I go 30 miles north it's rural Michigan where guns trump all and the biggest concern come people have is who doesn't stand for the national anthem.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:30 AM
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It's whimsical and seems tongue-in-cheek (but probably isn't intended to be). Even within a given geographical area (e.g., Washington, D.C., only 68 square miles) there are multiple subcultures so that whole exercise is just silly.
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:53 AM
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For the area I know, they couldn't be more wrong.

Arizona's northern counties - Coconino, Apache and Navajo - are not "the conservative far west". If anything, they are First Nations. They are almost exclusively Native American, and they are empty! More people attend a single NFL game than live in Apache county, but it is the third largest in area.

And Maricopa (includes Phoenix) may have a lot of Hispanic culture, but it is as red and bigoted as the worst of America. If the voting majority could get their way, every trace of Hispanic save for Taco bell would be removed, and English would be the only legal language. Same for the area south of Tucson, full of American "patriots" fearlessly defending our border.
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Old 12-04-2019, 12:55 PM
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You're in upstate NY. I'm in central California. My county sounds much like yours - tiny, homogeneous, and yet with several distinct societies unlike any of "the eleven". Curious.
I suspect it's not so much 'curious' as 'very common' -- and even more so for large and/or non-homogeneous counties. Which is a very large problem for the argument being made in the article in the OP.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:06 PM
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Not the First Nation, which is entirely in Canada on the map.
Uh, and much of Alaska?
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:15 PM
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Fenway Park smack dab in the middle of Yankeedom? I don't friggin' think so.
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Old 12-04-2019, 06:09 PM
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I can come up with eleven different "nations" just in New York City.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:26 PM
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:27 PM
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Fenway Park smack dab in the middle of Yankeedom? I don't friggin' think so.
Except when it comes to baseball, Yankees are New Englanders, not New Yorkers.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:56 PM
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The fact that of the 11 nations of North America, none of them is based on African-Americans’ culture?
The influence of African-American culture on the mainstream popular culture has been so pervasive that I don't think it varies much from one "nation" to the next.

I don't think you could identify any of these so-called "nations" as being particularly influenced by it, although possibly a few are rather *less* influenced by African-Americans' culture.

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  #74  
Old 12-04-2019, 10:29 PM
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The influence of African-American culture on the mainstream popular culture has been so pervasive that I don't think it varies much from one "nation" to the next.

I don't think you could identify any of these so-called "nations" as being particularly influenced by it, although possibly a few are rather *less* influenced by African-Americans' culture.

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I think you're missing the point.

If African-Americans as a group aren't at least one of the nations of North America, then the whole concept behind 11 nations is bunk.

The problem isn't that African-American culture doesn't dominate any one of those regions. It's that this shows that if there are different nations in North America, they're not regional.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:12 AM
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Not commenting on the overall concept, but at least they carved out South Louisiana from the rest of the south (and the rest of Louisiana). Too many people just lump this region in with the rest of the state, when in fact it is completely different. Food, religion, politics, language, culture. It's night and day.
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Old 12-05-2019, 12:02 PM
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Fenway Park smack dab in the middle of Yankeedom? I don't friggin' think so.
Still a bit touchy about The Babe, are we?



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  #77  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:15 PM
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It is a weird grouping that doesn't make much sense, and the division between rural and urban areas is generally a lot stronger than the difference over these arbitrary geographical regions. Also I have to outright laugh at characterizing the Deep South as a region that "fights against government regulation that threatens individual liberty". The Deep South seceeded in the 1860s precisely because they were worried that the federal government was going to increase individual liberty for blacks, and in the 1960s fought hard the federal government increasing liberties for blacks to do things like ride at the front of the bus, attend school, vote, buy houses, and visit lunch counters. The characteristic stance today is opposed to individual liberties on major issues like marriage (notably gay marriage), abortion, recreational drug use, protection against search and seizure, and limits on police behavior.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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In my town (Melbourne), the traditional question was "What school did you go to?". Because the answer to that enable us to slot you into your culture and tribe. You can slot people into bigger or smaller groups: it's a natural human characteristic.
That's a common question in Honolulu and for the same reason. Top of the heap is Punahou School, which counts Barack Obama among its alumni.
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Last edited by Siam Sam; 12-05-2019 at 10:44 PM.
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