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  #51  
Old 11-15-2019, 01:56 PM
Little Nemo is online now
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Irrelevant, since we don't elect our President by popular vote. And you know that.
I understand that. And I think it's clear that I feel that is a problem that we should fix. And I offered Donald Trump and George W. Bush as two recent examples of why it's a problem.

As for why I brought it up in this thread, iamthewalrus(:3= wrote that we could fix the problem of having a bad President by voting for somebody else. So I was responding by reminding people that we don't actually get to vote for the President.
  #52  
Old 11-15-2019, 02:28 PM
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Or are you claiming the election results were fake news?
The election results were 304-227. Who is claiming that it was fake news?
  #53  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
The election results were 304-227. Who is claiming that it was fake news?
Which of those electors did you vote for? Name him or her. SPOILER: You have zero idea who you voted for, other than that they maybe promised to vote for some ticket.

The US installs losers. Vote suppression and disenfranchisement: millions of eligible voters are shitcanned. Electoral 'college': a candidate with 28% popular vote can take the White House. Gerrymanders: a minority party takes a majority of legislative seats. Here, losers win. Is that fake news? Do you like being commanded by losers?

The federal electoral system values folks in some states more than others. A Texas or Florida voter is worth less than one in Vermont, Delaware, Nevada. Is that fake news?

But that's going off-topic. Why is presidential lying okay but bribery ain't? Sorry, wrong premise. If presidential lying sinks to "abuse of power" or "obstruction of justice" then it's certainly not okay. We can't just write off this POTUS as a compulsive liar, an immature lad with Tourette's. He lies to cover his many crimes.
  #54  
Old 11-16-2019, 08:36 AM
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It's more than just ignorance and apathy. The big problem (and increasingly serious problem) is misinformed voters. Partly because politicians openly lie and get away with it, and partly because we have well-funded campaigns and foreign governments feeding lies to voters.
I completely agree -- I was using the term "ignorant" broadly and meant it to include the concept of being misinformed, in the same sense as young-earth creationists and flat-earth believers are ignorant. And I agree it's an increasingly serious problem, and it's being exacerbated by rulings like Citizens United that allow special interests to spread misinformation like wildfire. Democracy can't survive in a climate of ignorance and apathy. Some of America's biggest problems -- health care, gun violence, growing income disparity, poor state of public education -- are due to this.
  #55  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
The election results were 304-227. Who is claiming that it was fake news?
Seriously?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I understand that. And I think it's clear that I feel that is a problem that we should fix. And I offered Donald Trump and George W. Bush as two recent examples of why it's a problem.

As for why I brought it up in this thread, iamthewalrus(:3= wrote that we could fix the problem of having a bad President by voting for somebody else. So I was responding by reminding people that we don't actually get to vote for the President.
  #56  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
As for why I brought it up in this thread, iamthewalrus(:3= wrote that we could fix the problem of having a bad President by voting for somebody else. So I was responding by reminding people that we don't actually get to vote for the President.
The best solution to politicians that lie is the ballot box. That doesn't mean that the person you personally, or even that a slight majority of people vote for will always get to be President. That's not how our system works. Sure, the Electoral College is imperfect and (very slightly) undemocratic, but there wouldn't have even been a United States of America without it, so on the balance I'm going to count it as a net positive.

Establishing a Ministry of Truth with the power to disqualify candidates for lying too much or too blatantly is not a path that will end well. Nor would treating every statement made by politicians as under oath and susceptible to prosecution for perjury.
  #57  
Old 11-18-2019, 08:23 PM
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Which of those electors did you vote for? Name him or her. SPOILER: You have zero idea who you voted for, other than that they maybe promised to vote for some ticket.
Yeah, it's public information. And it's printed right on the ballot. Imagine that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ntial_electors
  #58  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
hat doesn't mean that the person you personally, or even that a slight majority of people vote for will always get to be President.
Or even that the person with the second highest vote count in history won't lose to someone not even in the top ten, or that your vote will be counted at all (or that you'll be allowed to cast it).
  #59  
Old 11-18-2019, 09:57 PM
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I agree, it should be a crime to knowingly lie for political gain. It’s exactly like false advertisement, which is committing fraud on the public. And political gain leads to monetary gain, so why do we allow one and not the other?
  #60  
Old 11-19-2019, 03:03 PM
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I agree, it should be a crime to knowingly lie for political gain. It’s exactly like false advertisement, which is committing fraud on the public. And political gain leads to monetary gain, so why do we allow one and not the other?
Because the cure is worse than the disease.

Imagine we had such laws today. They'd be federal laws, so they'd be enforced by the DOJ. Which is currently lead by a man appointed by Trump and confirmed by the Senate. Who do you think they're going to prosecute?
  #61  
Old 11-19-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
The best solution to politicians that lie is the ballot box. That doesn't mean that the person you personally, or even that a slight majority of people vote for will always get to be President. That's not how our system works. Sure, the Electoral College is imperfect and (very slightly) undemocratic, but there wouldn't have even been a United States of America without it, so on the balance I'm going to count it as a net positive.
How is the ballot box supposed to solve anything when its results are not used?

There's a vast difference between saying a political system isn't democratic because the candidate I personally voting for didn't win and saying a political system isn't democratic because the candidate the majority of people voted for didn't win.

Saying the Electoral College is very slightly undemocratic is a huge understatement. The reality is that the President of the United States is chosen by a system that's only slightly more democratic than the one used to choose the Pope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
Establishing a Ministry of Truth with the power to disqualify candidates for lying too much or too blatantly is not a path that will end well. Nor would treating every statement made by politicians as under oath and susceptible to prosecution for perjury.
I would not want to have any laws that screen candidates for lying or other moral failings. I fully agree that the people should be allowed to judge a candidate's character and decide what is or is not acceptable. But this is not the issue I was addressing.
  #62  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:45 PM
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Who considers the lying ok? The White House staff and the GOP keeps contorting themselves into pretzels explaining which lie was a joke, which was hyperbole, which is actually true if you would stop thinking or listening to people who think.

Who says quid pro quo is not ok? The GOP are in the process of switching from "There was no quid pro quo" to "quid pro quo is actually the normal way to do foreign policy".

Lindsay "A President doesn't even have to be convicted of a crime to be impeached." Graham is on record saying he'd be horrified if evidence of "quid pro quo" was revealed, but has of course changed his mind by now.

Or to put it another way, what are you looking for here? Is what the President is doing ok? A lot of people would say "no", even a lot of his supporters ("that's bad, but he's sticking it to the libs, so I'll vote for him again").

Is it illegal? Very little is for the president.

Is it impeachable conduct? That depends on whether the GOP want to continue riding the tiger or attempt a disorderly dismount.
  #63  
Old 11-19-2019, 06:53 PM
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Saying the Electoral College is very slightly undemocratic is a huge understatement. The reality is that the President of the United States is chosen by a system that's only slightly more democratic than the one used to choose the Pope.
Agree to disagree, I guess.

Quote:
I would not want to have any laws that screen candidates for lying or other moral failings. I fully agree that the people should be allowed to judge a candidate's character and decide what is or is not acceptable. But this is not the issue I was addressing.
I may have lost the thread here. What exactly do you think we should do about the problem posed by the OP?

I think the Electoral College is mostly a red herring here. Like, there's no particular reason that a politician couldn't lie themselves into a majority of votes. What then?
  #64  
Old 11-19-2019, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
I think the Electoral College is mostly a red herring here.
The "Electoral College" (which doesn't exist; those disagreeing should please point to it - it's more accurately the US presidential electoral system) is an artifact of the slave era. Kill it. A candidate with a wee minority of popular votes can take the White House. Kill that. Gerrymanders and this electoral system install losers. That must stop else disaster.

Back to lying. Laws ain't gonna stop pols from bullshitting. US commercial media make a shitload of money airing lying pols. US media made Tramp and he enriches them. Who thinks that quid-pro-quo will stop anytime soon?
  #65  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:23 PM
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The "Electoral College" (which doesn't exist; those disagreeing should please point to it - it's more accurately the US presidential electoral system)
This is a weird bit of pedantry. The Electoral College clearly exists. It's the term we use to refer to the collection of electors.
  #66  
Old 11-21-2019, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Yeah, it's public information. And it's printed right on the ballot. Imagine that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ntial_electors
Could you please quote the text at your link that supports your assertion that the names of the electors are printed on one's ballot? I couldn't find it.
  #67  
Old 11-24-2019, 02:06 PM
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This is a weird bit of pedantry. The Electoral College clearly exists. It's the term we use to refer to the collection of electors.
Yes, "it's the term we use" but it's not legally defined. It's a "group" that never meets, never confers, is not itself elected, whose members aren't named on my California ballot. That's even worse than Tramp University. At least electors aren't paid, right?
  #68  
Old 11-24-2019, 04:53 PM
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Back to lying. Laws ain't gonna stop pols from bullshitting. US commercial media make a shitload of money airing lying pols. US media made Tramp and he enriches them. Who thinks that quid-pro-quo will stop anytime soon?
Most of the US media lambastes Trump daily, as well they should. So I disagree with a caricaturing of the media being responsible.
Yes the media reporting on his appalling statements kept him on the front page, but how it's supposed to work is: trump kills someone on 5th avenue, the media reports it and the public is outraged.

As for whether QPQ will stop, again it depends what kind of QPQ we're talking about.
If it's in the US national interests then no, it's vital such deals continue to happen. If it's for the president's personal interests then there is no evidence it happened prior to trump and the next time it happens then that president should be impeached.

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  #69  
Old 11-26-2019, 02:46 PM
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Perhaps President Donald Trump, and the rank and file of the Republican party believed each and every one of those things. Boldly stated truths in the face of liberal conspiracies and coverups. Perhaps they still believe each and every one of them. The liberal press might have covered up the true events, and created those "lies" to discredit the bold leadership of the exemplar of their chosen leader.
  #70  
Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM
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Why is outright lying by the President, in public, over and over, ok


Why is outright lying by the President, in public, over and over, ok

Because the world runs on bullshit. We live in a society that is saturated with façade, spin and outright deception. We love it - from the tooth fairy and Santa Clause to Elvis and Bigfoot. Advertisers and bloviators like Limbaugh and Jones dish it out all day long. When we don't get enough we seek it out on our own at Disney World or some guys garage door where Jesus shows up every time a car goes by.

Why not the quid quo pro?

Because some things are so blatantly corrupt that even we - the great unwashed American public - can understand them.
  #71  
Old Yesterday, 06:57 PM
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The people and press basically held Reagan to a lower standard since he was a charming and charismatic president who told entertaining anecdotes.

Since then, various degrees of lying seem to have become more acceptable. Of course, all presidents are going to omit some dodgy details or use language to misdirect and minimize.

I would say most Presidents have some degree of charm (to attract supporters) and narcissism (to run, deal with a million inconveniences, to think you are the best option). Trump may have greater pathology in this regard. I don’t think most people or the press like it. But a comedian joked about how hard it is to call Trump to account because as soon as he does something shocking, he soon does something worse.
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