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  #151  
Old Yesterday, 11:38 PM
Little Nemo is online now
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I don't like semantic games — what does "intrinsic worth" even mean? — but if you define such that NOTHING has "intrinsic worth" then, sure, silver doesn't have intrinsic worth either.
I don't think it's an unclear concept. Intrinsic worth means you want that item for some quality present within that item.

The point has been made in this thread. Some goods have intrinsic worth like food or water or comic books; they're things that you personally want to use.

Other goods like gold or silver or currency have negligible intrinsic worth. Their value is that you can trade them for the goods that you actually want to have.

Trade goods - like gold and silver and money - are only valuable if you still have a functioning economy and society where some people are producing excess goods and are willing to sell them. In a serious collapse, nobody is going to trade you something useful like food for something useless like gold.

Last edited by Little Nemo; Yesterday at 11:39 PM.
  #152  
Old Yesterday, 11:54 PM
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  #153  
Old Yesterday, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Oredigger77 View Post
It looks like the Navy's new subs cost about 10 billion a piece so you'll need 18,000 tons for a sub or about 12% of the world's silver.
So the silver standard helps preserve world peace!



  #154  
Old Today, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
I don't think it's an unclear concept. Intrinsic worth means you want that item for some quality present within that item.

The point has been made in this thread. Some goods have intrinsic worth like food or water or comic books; they're things that you personally want to use.

Other goods like gold or silver or currency have negligible intrinsic worth. Their value is that you can trade them for the goods that you actually want to have.

Trade goods - like gold and silver and money - are only valuable if you still have a functioning economy and society where some people are producing excess goods and are willing to sell them. In a serious collapse, nobody is going to trade you something useful like food for something useless like gold.
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because they have inherent properties that make them very desirable. They have uses outside of being mediums of exchange. They were desired as luxury commodities long before they became money. There are many things you can do with gold and silver, besides exchange something for it. I guarantee you the value of gold and silver will never go to zero. Can we say the same thing about fiat currencies?
  #155  
Old Today, 01:13 AM
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The "thinking" in this thread has gone so far off the rails, that I'm afraid I'll give up. In desperation I reminded posters of something I would have thought they already knew: Germany still uses paper money despite that they suffered a currency collapse. Let me try again in a larger font:

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Paper money is very convenient Remember the ancient Chinese? Electronic money is even more convenient. Such money may or may not be explicitly "backed," e.g. by precious metals.

A "currency collapse" does NOT mean that paper money is no longer used on the planet. The German Papiermark collapsed almost a hundred years ago, but Germany is still using paper money!

Similarly, IF the U.S. Dollar collapses, the U.S. will still probably use some sort of paper or electronic money. E-Coin? The New_Dollar? Chinese Yuan?
AFTER this gentle reminder, we stiull have to put up with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
What weight of silver is needed to buy a new nuclear submarine? Who will haul the truckloads of coins or ingots?
I think I'll give up now. If nobody bothers to pick up the standard then Let Ignorance Reign!
  #156  
Old Today, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because they have inherent properties that make them very desirable. They have uses outside of being mediums of exchange. They were desired as luxury commodities long before they became money. There are many things you can do with gold and silver, besides exchange something for it. I guarantee you the value of gold and silver will never go to zero. Can we say the same thing about fiat currencies?
There are many things you can do with all sorts of substances; that doesn't make them all equally valuable, or even inherently valuable. You can do a lot more with steel than you can with silver, to name one example: there is some fabulous cut-steel jewelry, and you can make buildings out of it, and weapons and vehicles and all manner of functional objects. Do you foresee a time when steel is more valuable than silver? Why or why not?

No, you can't guarantee that the value of silver will never go to zero. (If you want to get biblical, check out Ezekiel 7:19.) More importantly, the value doesn't have to go all the way to zero; all it has to do is fall below the value of other more desirable goods. You can't eat silver, and from that it follows that if food is particularly scarce, it will be more desirable to have food than to have silver, and the value of silver will fall.
  #157  
Old Today, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Flavius View Post
Gold and silver have intrinsic value because they have inherent properties that make them very desirable. They have uses outside of being mediums of exchange. They were desired as luxury commodities long before they became money. There are many things you can do with gold and silver, besides exchange something for it. I guarantee you the value of gold and silver will never go to zero. Can we say the same thing about fiat currencies?
Sure, why not?

As for this repeated "go to zero" nonsense: For the third time now: Look at the Reichsmark surviving WWII and only being replaced in 1948 when East and West Germany decided they wanted their own separate currency. In the West, very favorable exchange rates were given. From Wikipedia:

"The Deutsche Mark was officially introduced on Sunday, June 20, 1948 by Ludwig Erhard. The old Reichsmark and Rentenmark were exchanged for the new currency at a rate of DM 1 = RM 1 for the essential currency such as wages, payment of rents etc., and DM 1 = RM 10 for the remainder in private non-bank credit balances, with half frozen.[clarification needed] Large amounts were exchanged for RM 10 to 65 Pfennig. In addition, each person received a per capita allowance of DM 60 in two parts, the first being DM 40 and the second DM 20.[6]"

After that, Deutsche Marks became one of the most reliable currencies in the world which made the value of the Euro rock solid when those replaced DMs.

Even at a rate of 10 to .65 RMs for DMs, that tells you that RMs never came close to going to "zero".

Is any of this sinking in????

You are thinking only in terms of extremes. Reality is not extreme based.

Note that a lot of your "intrinsic worth" arguments also apply to diamonds (for example). Diamonds have practical uses. (I do not consider luxury goods to be useful in a "collapse" scenario.) But try buying a bunch of diamonds today at DeBeers' crazy rates and then see what you get for them if things go to pot. (Even reselling diamonds now results in a big loss.)

How would ordinary people know the quality, etc., of your diamonds?

And the same thing applies to silver and gold. For bulk pieces (like the previously mentioned chain links), very few people will know if they are real gold or gold plated or whatever. It's even worse with silver since it's easy to make shiny stuff like that.

That leaves things like silver/gold coins and such which can still be faked. The smallest gold coin in wide circulation that people would recognize is the Krugerrand. 1oz of gold. If the Mad Max fantasy world you're thinking of, how many people are going to have $1400 worth of stuff like food, medicine, ammo that they're willing to trade you for one of those??????

Okay, sure. You think going small silver coins. E.g., FDR dimes. Currently worth $1.20 melt value. Let's say you have $250k in savings, etc. (And I know a lot of people with much more than that.) That's 208K+ dimes. Good luck buying that amount of old silver coins in any denominations. (Total weight about 521 kilograms.) And multiply that by all the similar extremists also buying up the supply of such coins.

Just a reminder: a lot of things have value. A lot. Why the obsession with just a couple of things? Obsessing about a select few and thinking only in terms of extremes doesn't trouble you at all?

Last edited by ftg; Today at 08:43 AM.
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