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  #601  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:13 AM
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I think there's a valid argument in there, but why advocate for bloomberg in all that? Bloomberg's nomination would look incredibly corrupt since they changed the rules for him to buy his way in. There's no way bloomberg is the safe "let's just get someone uncontroversial that people like in there to destory the GOP" candidate.

It actually kind of amazes me that the democratic party can't come up with a "generic likeable white guy" candidate for exactly that sort of plan. Buttigieg comes close, but being gay is a significant problem among, particularly, black and latino democratic voters.
You know what's funny? If someone perceived to be to the right of whatever is defined the Left had said what you said about blacks and latinos they'll be called a racist.
Heck, if Trump where to say exactly what you said it would be the topic of the daily meltdown.
  #602  
Old 02-15-2020, 01:33 AM
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IMHO

If there is any HINT that Sanders disruptive policies will have any sort of recessionary economic effect, he will lose. I donít think younger people fully understand just how important the value of their retirement funds and college funds is to middle and upper middle class Americans. Nobodyís going to vote for a recession, even a little one.
I am not so sure the next recession is wholly subject to votes. We have the economic policies of a recession in a time of economic expansion. Debt is being distributed massively around- federal debt, mortgage debt, student loan debt, credit card debt, car loan debt, corporate bond debt out the wazoo- (I'm not sure this article makes perfect sense, yet there is a there there, no?)

Policy seems intentionally bad or inept. To what end?
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  #603  
Old 02-15-2020, 07:42 AM
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If supporters of the octogenarians can say "Eighty is the new sixty" then let me say "White gal is the new white guy." Amy Klobuchar for President! I don't know how "likeable" she is, but it's got to be impressive that she's still on the stage with all the culling that's already occurred.

Make it Klobuchar-Bloomberg (or more realistically Bloomberg-Klobuchar) to take advantage of Mayor Moneybags' generosity.
Quoted in full because I support these messages. I really want to see a Bloomberg vs Trump debate.

What, you people don't use "most entertaining" as a criterion? Shit oh dear, I wish Franken could come in from the wilderness to run, but "richer than Trump pretends to be" will do.
  #604  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:01 AM
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#StillVotingForYang is trending on Twitter.

Bernie supporters are not trying to welcome these people to join them. Bernie supporters are not trying to positively influence these people by making a case that that their candidate has attractive policy positions.

Bernie supporters are roasting the fuck out out these people, calling them names, and threatening them.
  #605  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
#StillVotingForYang is trending on Twitter.

Bernie supporters are not trying to welcome these people to join them. Bernie supporters are not trying to positively influence these people by making a case that that their candidate has attractive policy positions.

Bernie supporters are roasting the fuck out out these people, calling them names, and threatening them.
I've seen the exact opposite on the various Bernie subreddits -- lots of encouragement and welcoming.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-15-2020 at 09:15 AM.
  #606  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:57 AM
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#StillVotingForYang is trending on Twitter.

Bernie supporters are not trying to welcome these people to join them. Bernie supporters are not trying to positively influence these people by making a case that that their candidate has attractive policy positions.

Bernie supporters are roasting the fuck out out these people, calling them names, and threatening them.
As I read this, literal Chapo Traphouse is on in the background, and they are praising Yang and saying "Come on in, there's no bad blood."

And that's Chapo Traphouse. Famously illustrative of the more moderate, palatable brand of Sanders supporters. You must be hearing more influential leftist voices that are more reviled as aggressive, harassing online dirtbags, I guess. I'm sure those exist. Can't think of any other reason you'd say that!
  #607  
Old 02-15-2020, 09:58 AM
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Lance Turbo and iiandyiiii, until both of you provide cites, well, you know the procedure.

Last edited by dropzone; 02-15-2020 at 10:02 AM.
  #608  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:48 AM
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Yes, unless you want Traitor Trump again.


Would ANY of the Dem candidates be WORSE than the Orange Anus?
This. Job ONE is to get rid of Trump.
  #609  
Old 02-16-2020, 08:51 AM
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#StillVotingForYang is trending on Twitter.

Bernie supporters are not trying to welcome these people to join them. Bernie supporters are not trying to positively influence these people by making a case that that their candidate has attractive policy positions.

Bernie supporters are roasting the fuck out out these people, calling them names, and threatening them.
Again. Just like in 2016.
  #610  
Old 02-16-2020, 10:09 AM
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[Economic] Policy seems intentionally bad or inept. To what end?
I'm not sure if you refer to the precarious economic and political trends which have engulfed the developed world. Or just the economic policies of Trump and his band of crooks.

Assuming the latter, I don't think there's any big mystery. Imagine a junkie jonesing for a fix. The junkie has no interest whatsoever in tomorrow: he'll happily sell his sister for a 15-minute high today.
  #611  
Old 02-16-2020, 11:02 AM
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I'm not sure if you refer to the precarious economic and political trends which have engulfed the developed world. Or just the economic policies of Trump and his band of crooks.

Assuming the latter, I don't think there's any big mystery. Imagine a junkie jonesing for a fix. The junkie has no interest whatsoever in tomorrow: he'll happily sell his sister for a 15-minute high today.
It’s a problem. The economy has been artificially inflated with borrowed money. But that number at the bottom of the retirement account statement is very real to most people.

And the idea that a Bernie presidency will cause a market crash and recession is being heavily promoted in conservative and even mainstream circles.

https://www.ccn.com/can-the-stock-ma...rs-nomination/

Besides, 6 out of 10 Americans feel that they are better off than they were 3 years ago.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mp/4747228002/

This is very important in a totally non-abstract way. Unfortunately, it’s a lot more real to people than concerns about the rule of law or the persecution of civil servants. If you run on platform of radical change to an economy that’s working for most people, you lose. If yo declare “war” on Wall Street when your average middle class investor is thrilled with the growth on their accounts, you will lose.

Of course, this Potemkin economy was engineered by the Republicans in order to win this election. They are formidable opponents and the Democrats need to press every advantage they can get.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-16-2020 at 11:04 AM.
  #612  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:58 PM
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This thread has been a modest education for me. Of course, I never expected anything in the Pit (or really, the internet generally) to be generous exchange between ladies and gents of good will, but it got kind of spooky in here.

I never was moved to put anyone on "ignore" until now - wanted to, but was too lazy to figure out how to do it - but I've done so and am liking the look.

Here's my take: Senor Beef is right. Several others are either wrong or missing Beef's point.

But Beef is sadly wrong about one thing - Bernie Sanders will be the nominee, and furthermore has the best chance of anyone so far of taking the prize. My take.

Nobody knows anything! The Straight Dope Message Board is moribund, and more so now that Cecil is retired. Nobody's fault, but time has passed this format by. Only us desperate clingers (old guys like me and I bet most of you) remain. But people will have their say, even if few notice. Best not to let any of it get to you.

I'm a Warren supporter, and yes I think she can make a comeback but I expect she won't - but because NNA (nobody knows anything) I'll be happily wrong if she does, and yes she will win too.

Last edited by Hatchie; 02-16-2020 at 04:02 PM.
  #613  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:16 PM
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#StillVotingForYang is trending on Twitter.

Bernie supporters are not trying to welcome these people to join them. Bernie supporters are not trying to positively influence these people by making a case that that their candidate has attractive policy positions.

Bernie supporters are roasting the fuck out out these people, calling them names, and threatening them.
Went to the hashtag. Read the first couple hundred comments. Found precisely one pro-Bernie tweet that was a little bit rude about Yang, and it wasnít that bad.

Youíre full of shit.
  #614  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:21 PM
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Lance Turbo and iiandyiiii, until both of you provide cites, well, you know the procedure.
Just go to the hashtag and see for yourself. 99.9% of the tweets are about the Yang media blackout and how corrupt the DNC is.
  #615  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:27 PM
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Lance Turbo and iiandyiiii, until both of you provide cites, well, you know the procedure.
Forgot about this -- here is the kind of thing I see on the Bernie subreddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForP...o_say_that_im/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForP...ecause_bernie/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForP..._yang_gang_in/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForP...angberniegang/

https://www.reddit.com/r/SandersForP...g_for_running/
  #616  
Old 02-16-2020, 07:30 PM
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Just go to the hashtag and see for yourself. 99.9% of the tweets are about the Yang media blackout and how corrupt the DNC is.
How do I " go to the hashtag?" Remember that I'm moribund.
  #617  
Old 02-17-2020, 02:49 AM
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Fucking Christ, the board ate my goddamned reply.

Here's quintessential Berniac: getting John Lewis confused with Elijah Cummings. Mr. Civil Rights Hero strikes again. Bernie's Bros booed John Lewis in 2016.
  #618  
Old 02-17-2020, 03:31 AM
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... I never was moved to put anyone on "ignore" until now - wanted to, but was too lazy to figure out how to do it - but I've done so and am liking the look....
I'm sorry; my posts are generally brilliant. I hope fellow Dopers will quote some of my brilliancies so Hatchie can see them too!
  #619  
Old 02-17-2020, 07:19 AM
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A large number of Yang gangsters will vote Yang in the primaries,but will coalesce around whomever gets the Dem nomination. IMHO.
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  #620  
Old 02-17-2020, 11:08 AM
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I want to travel to the parallel universe where Clinton beat Obama in the 2008 primary and then went on to be defeated by McCain. Just twelve straight years of centrists on this board constantly blaming the sexist "Obama Boys" for the disastrous McCain and subsequent Palin Presidencies.

And then I'll travel to the timeline where Bloomberg won the 2016 election running as a Republican and centrists in that timeline toying with the idea of supporting Trump in the 2020 Democratic primary.
  #621  
Old 02-17-2020, 12:53 PM
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It’s a problem. The economy has been artificially inflated with borrowed money. But that number at the bottom of the retirement account statement is very real to most people.

And the idea that a Bernie presidency will cause a market crash and recession is being heavily promoted in conservative and even mainstream circles.

https://www.ccn.com/can-the-stock-ma...rs-nomination/

Besides, 6 out of 10 Americans feel that they are better off than they were 3 years ago.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mp/4747228002/

This is very important in a totally non-abstract way. Unfortunately, it’s a lot more real to people than concerns about the rule of law or the persecution of civil servants. If you run on platform of radical change to an economy that’s working for most people, you lose. If yo declare “war” on Wall Street when your average middle class investor is thrilled with the growth on their accounts, you will lose.

Of course, this Potemkin economy was engineered by the Republicans in order to win this election. They are formidable opponents and the Democrats need to press every advantage they can get.
"Potemkin economy". Nice one!

I think this whole Benie will crash the market hysteria is the "Libruls are coming for muh GUNS " of 2020. From your own site:
https://www.ccn.com/alibaba-ceos-cor...-stock-market/
Coronavirus will tank the market!
https://www.ccn.com/housing-market-c...rably-analyst/
Consumer debt will tank the market!
https://www.ccn.com/sp-500-due-for-u...luations-soar/
Record stock valuations will tank the market!
https://www.ccn.com/history-says-a-f...is-inevitable/
The calendar saying it is February will tank the market!
https://www.ccn.com/big-techs-politi...et-crash-2020/
Political headwinds for Big Tech will tank the market!
https://www.ccn.com/warning-the-sp-5...eating-plunge/
Stocks will plunge cuz they're too high!

There was another one about Boomers selling their 401ks tanking the market, but I am not finding it. I can believe that, though the counterargument is that foreign investors will buy as much as Boomers sell. Who knows?

I do think the market will pull back at least. GNP growth is 2%, stocks are up 30+%, and how can that continue? It doesn't make sense. But blaming Bernie mostly does not. Anyway, if things do crash and well-off people become poor, they are going to want to benefit from Bernie's policies. Trump will just say they're losers who deserve to starve if they won't pull their weight.

Also, a stock crash is a good thing. I don't retire for 20 years and I want to buy low. Vote Bernie!
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Last edited by Try2B Comprehensive; 02-17-2020 at 12:57 PM.
  #622  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:02 PM
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A large number of Yang gangsters will vote Yang in the primaries,but will coalesce around whomever gets the Dem nomination. IMHO.

[Pet Peeve Alert]It's whoever. Don't use the word if you don't know how.[/PPA]
  #623  
Old 02-17-2020, 10:23 PM
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[Pet Peeve Alert]It's whoever. Don't use the word if you don't know how.[/PPA]
It's been my understanding that if the "who" is on the receiving end of some sort of action, the "m" should be added.
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Old 02-17-2020, 11:10 PM
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Who or whom?

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/who-v...u-might-think/
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Last edited by Mr. Duality; 02-17-2020 at 11:10 PM.
  #625  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:21 AM
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It's been my understanding that if the "who" is on the receiving end of some sort of action, the "m" should be added.

In the sentence in question the pronoun is acting as a subject (nominative); therefore, it shoudl be whoever.
  #626  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:02 AM
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Of all words neither bright nor clever, the most egregious is whomever


The thread has suddenly taken a soberer, somberer turn. Let me put in my 2Ę worth:

(1) Pro-tip: While I've not explicitly checked Emily Post or Merriam-Webster, I think "who/whoever" is now accepted even when "whom/whomever" is preferred, and anyway the substitution will go unnoticed in the real world. Even here at SDMB there's an even chance that no pedant will bring it up. But whomever writes 'whomever' when it is disallowed will sound like an imbecile.

(2) "Gilmore: GOP will rally around whomever is the nominee" is strikingly similar to Mr. Duality's faux pas and will get you Google hits. But AFAIK Honcho Gilmore, whatever his crimes, is innocent of the heinous grammar that CNN charged him with: CNN paraphrased the Republioturd and thereby demonstrated their own incompetence.
  #627  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:34 AM
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I prefer to use "who-so-fucking-ever, asshole. "
  #628  
Old 02-18-2020, 08:32 AM
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...

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 02-18-2020 at 08:34 AM. Reason: eh
  #629  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:26 AM
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I am appropriately remorseful. (Actually I am having a good chuckle. You guys are a strange and twisted lot.)
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  #630  
Old 02-18-2020, 12:09 PM
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"Potemkin economy". Nice one!


I do think the market will pull back at least. GNP growth is 2%, stocks are up 30+%, and how can that continue? It doesn't make sense. But blaming Bernie mostly does not. Anyway, if things do crash and well-off people become poor, they are going to want to benefit from Bernie's policies.

Also, a stock crash is a good thing. I don't retire for 20 years and I want to buy low. Vote Bernie!
This is going to be a problem for Bernie. A big one. There are lots of older voters that are reliable Democrats ( frankly, more traditionally reliable than young voters) and you can’t alienate them this way and not lose. I’m not saying it’s Bernie’s fault. It’s the set-up, the tilt on the playing field.

The economy is good. People like that. Especially older people who have seen their retirement accounts soar. And middle aged people who have seen their kids college fund grow. Even though most of them ( most of the Democrats, at least) know to some extent that it’s not real, there’s a very real attachment to those numbers.

If you run on, “there’s going to be a recession, but just a little one!” or “we’re going to crash the stock market, but it’ll bounce back eventually! ” you will lose like no one has ever lost before. You’ll have old people that have never voted Republican in their lives holding their noses and secretly voting for Trump.

People look at their Twitter feed and hate Trump. They come home from work and turn on the news and hate Trump. They read the paper and hate Trump.

But they don’t think about how they much hate Trump when they’re sticking their credit card in the gas pump. They don’t think about how much they hate Trump when they pay for groceries. They don’t think about how much they hate Trump when they open their account statement or pay their mortgage.

This is going to be a problem.

It would probably be a problem without the FBI and SEC investigations into Jane Sanders and Vermont College that will soon be launched. It would be a problem even without Trump’s extralegal investigations into the allegations that Sanders is a deep cover Communist plant wth financial ties to Iran and the incredible amount of unbelievable evidence that is uncovered. Investigations that the DOJ will coyly validate.

And if you don’t think this stuff is coming, you haven’t been paying attention.
Trump is promoting Bernie now because he has everything lined up to take him down.

Of course, I am completely jaded and cynical at this point. Maybe you idealists will run your little low budget election based on honesty and integrity and fairness* and you will win. I hope you do. But I fear you won’t.

I am not going to use the words fair or unfair in anymore in any election rated context this year. We are past that. We need to play by the rules as they are and not follow non-existent “rules” about the way things are “supposed to be done”. If it’s legal, it’s fair. No more whining.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-18-2020 at 12:13 PM.
  #631  
Old 02-18-2020, 03:46 PM
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I am appropriately remorseful. (Actually I am having a good chuckle. You guys are a strange and twisted lot.)
Click below.
  #632  
Old 02-18-2020, 06:56 PM
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This is going to be a problem for Bernie. A big one. ...If you run on, ďthereís going to be a recession, but just a little one!Ē or ďweíre going to crash the stock market, but itíll bounce back eventually! Ē you will lose like no one has ever lost before. Youíll have old people that have never voted Republican in their lives holding their noses and secretly voting for Trump. ...
^ This.

Bernie's political instincts work great with the minority of voters who adore the drama of Hating the Rich and feeling all righteous and virtuous in comparison with the Evil Rich, and thinking about What We'll Do Come the Revolution.

Bernie's political instincts do not work at all with everyone else. And 'everyone else' is the group that is going to decide the election.
  #633  
Old 02-18-2020, 07:18 PM
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Here's the dangerous scenario that I potentially foresee with Sanders as the nominee: Sanders would probably run up the score in solidly left and even purple states that have leaned left. But I worry - a lot - that he would flop in certain counties where 'Merikuns' just decide that they can't vote for a communist. I know that's not what Bernie is, but he's setting himself up for that label and they're going to not only hit Sanders but every Democrat down ballot over their heads with it. Sanders might not only lose the presidency; he most cost Democrats in congress, too. He will have no impact in centrist congressional districts such as those won by Connor Lamb of PA, except a very negative one.
  #634  
Old 02-18-2020, 11:02 PM
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This is going to be a problem for Bernie. A big one. There are lots of older voters that are reliable Democrats ( frankly, more traditionally reliable than young voters) and you canít alienate them this way and not lose. Iím not saying itís Bernieís fault. Itís the set-up, the tilt on the playing field.

The economy is good. People like that. Especially older people who have seen their retirement accounts soar. And middle aged people who have seen their kids college fund grow. Even though most of them ( most of the Democrats, at least) know to some extent that itís not real, thereís a very real attachment to those numbers.

If you run on, ďthereís going to be a recession, but just a little one!Ē or ďweíre going to crash the stock market, but itíll bounce back eventually! Ē you will lose like no one has ever lost before. Youíll have old people that have never voted Republican in their lives holding their noses and secretly voting for Trump.
Me, I will be ok, crash or no crash. But who says we're running on Bernie causing a crash (even a little one)?

1. Opinions vary, but if you ask me "the market" is outrunning increases in production. The fed is buying a ton of bonds to support these $1T deficits, and the bonds end up sold and in stocks, driving them up kind of ETF style. That may just pop in July. Or September. Or April. Who knows? Some people think it can just go up forever, but I think there is a point at which too many people won't want to get more leveraged, or get their leverage back in their faces. How does it look if/when Trump's Potemkin economy gets exposed?

2. I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit Bernie's policies will transfer wealth from the rich to the poor(er). But that is good for an economy, people with unmet demands and needs get some money and spend it, creating all kinds of economic growth. A clever administration could calibrate the corporate tax increases to encourage steady, sober growth. As an upper bound: what's the 21st century equivalent of 40 acres and a mule?


Hello? Bernie isn't an economic terrorist. [checks forum] What the fuck, guys?
  #635  
Old 02-19-2020, 09:42 AM
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2. I wouldn't be honest if I didn't admit Bernie's policies will transfer wealth from the rich to the poor(er).
This is the part that even well informed people keep missing.

Sanders (or Biden or Buttigieg or whoever) can't actually enact those policies without buy-in from both House and Senate. Assuming the House is on board (and this is quite the assumption on its own), there's no way a likely Republican Senate or even one which has a slim majority of Dems would pass laws enacting those policies.

Where POTUS will matter most is judicial appointments, trade agreements, foreign relations, and actually staffing the administration with competent people. POTUS has a place in setting a legislative agenda, but that will be tempered by the reality that Congress cannot always be relied upon to simply rubberstamp anything POTUS proclaims.
  #636  
Old 02-20-2020, 05:32 AM
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Totally in agreement with Great Antibob on what any candidate can do. But debating what they can do or how they will get it passed in Congress it isnít must-watch television and so why it isnít asked in the debates or pressed in interviews.
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Old 02-20-2020, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
Fucking Christ, the board ate my goddamned reply.

Here's quintessential Berniac: getting John Lewis confused with Elijah Cummings. Mr. Civil Rights Hero strikes again. Bernie's Bros booed John Lewis in 2016.
I get why that would fly on a Sanders-hating subreddit, but not why you would post it here. It's merely a kid who had a brain fart and got some people's names mixed up. All it suggests is youthful inexperience at most.

The message, that stop-and-frisk is horrible and should be denounced, is 100% correct. That Bloomberg supports it is a strike against him, and I would hope that anyone I was going to vote for would not agree with him.

It's definitely not a reason to get angry at them for. It's a harmless mistake, not malevolence.
  #638  
Old 02-20-2020, 07:45 AM
Jimmy Chitwood is offline
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Originally Posted by dba Fred View Post
Totally in agreement with Great Antibob on what any candidate can do. But debating what they can do or how they will get it passed in Congress it isn’t must-watch television and so why it isn’t asked in the debates or pressed in interviews.
It gets brought up in debates all the time. One of Klobuchar's favorite things to say is that Medicare for All isn't "real," and not even Democrats support it.

The reason that it isn't a compelling way to attack Sanders for having an agenda is that no Democrat ever gets anything done, if you're going to apply that logic to it. If it's a serious mark against Sanders that he won't accomplish "it," where it is everything he's talking about in February, then you might as well not run a candidate at all, because it's 2020 and the Democrats have at this point essentially given Republicans a heckler's veto on any action that they might take, no matter how incremental or moderate.

No Democrat is going to walk into office and just start checking off boxes without being opposed at every turn. As with many other issues here, everyone seems to acknowledge and understand that when they're talking about anyone but Sanders. Pete Buttigieg isn't going to go in front of Congress and hear "sure, Pete, let's work together on this, since you seem pretty presidential and unthreatening to our interests!" If it's supposed to be a meaningful condemnation of Sanders' agenda that people are gonna try to stop him, you have to demonstrate that Sanders, in being opposed in that way, is meaningfully different from anyone else. And it certainly isn't true that other candidates are going to walk in in a better negotiating position, having already internalized a lot of the Republicans' talking points.

Now, is it a compelling thing to point out that Democrats will oppose Sanders' agenda. Yes, absolutely. But, like, they should stop doing that, not point to it as a badge of honor.

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 02-20-2020 at 07:46 AM.
  #639  
Old 02-20-2020, 10:56 AM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
Yes, everything you have posted on this message board. You _say_ it, but I don't believe you.
Care to cite a post? Anything at all that shows that I would not vote for whoever is nominated? If you like I can cite a shitload of posts where I say I will hold my nose and vote for Hillary.

Quote:
Don't lump me in with these Bernie Bro dorks who won't vote Dem either.
Other than being willing to vote for someone who isn't Bernie Sanders, how are you different? How are you different from any of these other Bernie Dorks that sneer at moderates who aren't on all fours with the Justice Democrats agenda?

How many moderates have you accused of racism today?
  #640  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:01 AM
Chingon is online now
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  #641  
Old 02-20-2020, 11:15 AM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
I have several answers to this.

I do not generally insult democrats or democratic supporters of particular candidates routinely.
It's not your sneering at moderates that support other candidates, its how you sneer at people who have less than progressive views on every single thing.
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