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Old 12-01-2018, 06:30 PM
dtilque dtilque is online now
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Autopilot prevents a drunk driver from crashing

Story about how it took police 7 miles to stop the car: here.

This is good news. (Except for the guy who now faces DUI charges, of course.) Without the Autopilot, there'd have been a crash with potential injuries. The only thing I can't figure out is why it took so long to bring the car to a stop. All they had to do is get in front of it with another car and slow down. Which is what they did, but it should have only taken a few hundred meters, not seven miles. I guess they were just too cautious.
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Old 12-01-2018, 07:41 PM
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I doubt I'll be alive long enough to ever trust any autopilot function on a car. One reason is, people who have this option appear to think it's okay to fall asleep or get wasted because they'll just turn on the autopilot. Won't help when they strike a pedestrian before they get on the highway.
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Old 12-01-2018, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dtilque View Post
Story about how it took police 7 miles to stop the car: here.

This is good news. (Except for the guy who now faces DUI charges, of course.) Without the Autopilot, there'd have been a crash with potential injuries. The only thing I can't figure out is why it took so long to bring the car to a stop. All they had to do is get in front of it with another car and slow down. Which is what they did, but it should have only taken a few hundred meters, not seven miles. I guess they were just too cautious.
When I watch Live PD (3 hours a night, two nights a week of what is basically a live version of Cops), I've often wondered why they don't, especially in low speed chases, do just that.
It just doesn't seem to be done very often, if ever. I feel like I've seen training for it somewhere along the line though.
As for why it took so long for them to do that for the auto pilot car, my WAG, is that they attempted to pull if over and after X miles/feet declared the car to be evading and used standard departmental policy while pursuing it. It probably wasn't until someone realized that the driver wasn't in control that they slowed it down that way, and even then would likely have required an ok by a superior. IIRC, even doing a PITT maneuver requires permission.

Also, it should be noted that all these policies vary wildly from one department to the next.

I'm curious if, as auto piloted cars become more common, police will have a way to bring them to a halt. Now, understandably people may not want cars that police can shut down, but I could see a feature that would slow the car down if it's rear ended, so the police just need to tap the rear bumper.
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Old 12-01-2018, 08:45 PM
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...Now, understandably people may not want cars that police can shut down...
Why? I can understand concerns that a police override would need to be completely secure, so it couldn't be subverted by someone who's not a cop; and as added protection, one might want a mode where a vulnerable driver can set it to (say) take you the nearest gas station before stopping. Aside from that, what's the objection to a police override? It's essentially the same as being pulled over, except you don't have the option to flee. Surely the right to flee from the police is not something we need to preserve as driving becomes fully automated.
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Old 12-01-2018, 09:55 PM
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Why? I can understand concerns that a police override would need to be completely secure, so it couldn't be subverted by someone who's not a cop; and as added protection, one might want a mode where a vulnerable driver can set it to (say) take you the nearest gas station before stopping. Aside from that, what's the objection to a police override? It's essentially the same as being pulled over, except you don't have the option to flee. Surely the right to flee from the police is not something we need to preserve as driving becomes fully automated.

If there's a "stop" function it won't be just the cops using it, it'll be a hackers dream to jam up a freeway for days just for giggles. Even if was just the cops, the same cars are used everywhere on the planet. I can imagine there are places on this earth where not stopping might be an option worth exploring.

Besides, I kinda like having the choice, as I'm sure others do, even if it is mostly illusion.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:07 PM
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The car in question isn't designed to operate for more than 30 seconds unattended. And if it was on autopilot it shouldn't take 7 miles to brake check it. It looks like it was driven to a stop by the driver.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:20 PM
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Why? I can understand concerns that a police override would need to be completely secure, so it couldn't be subverted by someone who's not a cop; and as added protection, one might want a mode where a vulnerable driver can set it to (say) take you the nearest gas station before stopping. Aside from that, what's the objection to a police override? It's essentially the same as being pulled over, except you don't have the option to flee. Surely the right to flee from the police is not something we need to preserve as driving becomes fully automated.
I think the counter-argument is the same as for encryption. A backdoor can be used by unauthorized people, as well as those people who are intended to access it. Complete security is impossible, whether the vulnerability is your brother-in-law on the force who'll do you a favor, or flaws in the technical implementation that allow hackers to use the backdoor.

Additionally, even authorized groups consistently abuse their authority when given that kind of access. Having said that, if fully autonomous cars ever become common place, I'm sure they will have a police override function.

It's a good thing that the recently released "Navigate on autopilot" feature was updated at the last minute to require confirmation of lane changes. As originally planned the car would have changed lanes to get around the slower moving vehicle, if it was using navigate on autopilot, instead of just normal autopilot.

Based on their recently released data for the 3rd quarter 2018, Tesla vehicles NOT on autopilot report one accident per 1.92 million miles, while those on autopilot report one accident per 3.34 million miles. That is a considerable decrease in accident rate for autopilot use, though autopilot is mostly going to be used on limited access freeways, which are safer than surface streets. The overall statistic for all cars is one accident per 492,000 miles. In conclusion, it's not the car on autopilot that I'm worried is going to rear-end me or sideswipe me on the freeway.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
The car in question isn't designed to operate for more than 30 seconds unattended. And if it was on autopilot it shouldn't take 7 miles to brake check it. It looks like it was driven to a stop by the driver.
My typical method of using autopilot is to hook my thumb over the spoke, with my fingers holding the steering wheel, and let the weight of my hand and arm keep the car happy. My initial use was two hands on the wheel, but in that case the weight was balanced, so the car kept reminding me to put slight force on the wheel. It would be very easy to shove an arm through the steering wheel to keep the car from nagging. That's assuming the guy didn't have some device to keep off-center weight on the steering wheel.

When on autopilot, the car will slow down and stop in response to a vehicle in front of it. At 70 MPH that 7 miles took less than 7 minutes, so it might have taken that much time to assess the situation and get the blocking vehicle in position. I would also be willing to believe that much of this is sensationalism, and the guy was on autopilot and in and out of consciousness, but managed to wake up and stop on his own.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:44 PM
dtilque dtilque is online now
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Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
As for why it took so long for them to do that for the auto pilot car, my WAG, is that they attempted to pull if over and after X miles/feet declared the car to be evading and used standard departmental policy while pursuing it. It probably wasn't until someone realized that the driver wasn't in control that they slowed it down that way, and even then would likely have required an ok by a superior. IIRC, even doing a PITT maneuver requires permission.
Maybe the news reports got details wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but they read to me that it took seven miles to stop the car after they decided to put a police car in front of it.

As for an override for police, very few people are going to want that. Even if the possibility of hacking is eliminated (yeah, right), there's always the possibility of a policeman abusing the function.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:59 PM
Joey P Joey P is offline
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Originally Posted by Riemann View Post
Why? I can understand concerns that a police override would need to be completely secure, so it couldn't be subverted by someone who's not a cop; and as added protection, one might want a mode where a vulnerable driver can set it to (say) take you the nearest gas station before stopping. Aside from that, what's the objection to a police override? It's essentially the same as being pulled over, except you don't have the option to flee. Surely the right to flee from the police is not something we need to preserve as driving becomes fully automated.
In addition to what others have said, my thought when saying that is that I don't think people would want 'the government' to be able to control their car.
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Old 12-01-2018, 11:06 PM
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Maybe the news reports got details wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but they read to me that it took seven miles to stop the car after they decided to put a police car in front of it.
That, I don't know, I was just going by the OP.

Quote:
As for an override for police, very few people are going to want that. Even if the possibility of hacking is eliminated (yeah, right), there's always the possibility of a policeman abusing the function.
It would almost be like everyone having to give the police a copy of their house key, you know, just in case. Even many of the most law abiding people are going to take an issue with that.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:03 PM
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My Honda doesn't have auto-pilot, but it has a couple of features that makes it hard to fall asleep at the wheel. If you stray across the lines on the road for too long, it will pull the steering back straight and if you start swaying, it vibrates the steering wheel and if you go below a certain level an alarm sounds. Plus it will automatically brake if someone pulls up in front of you and you don't apply the brakes*. If the police car pulled in front of me and I got too close the car would stop. In addition, the cruise control automatically adjusts speed to the car in front, keeping a safe distance as the car in front slows down and i suspect at some point the auto braking system would kick in.

*I had the auto-brakes kick in once and it scared the heck out of me. I was driving home and a car pulled out of a parking garage in front of me. I knew he was far enough that I didn't have to brake and just slow down to 10-15 mph to allow him time to get completely on the road. The system didn't agree with me and my car suddenly stopped (thankfully there was no one in back of me) as if I hit and invisible tree. I had to shift to park before I could unlock the brakes and resume driving.

Last edited by lingyi; 12-03-2018 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:43 PM
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Rhiannon8404 Rhiannon8404 is offline
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In addition to what others have said, my thought when saying that is that I don't think people would want 'the government' to be able to control their car.
This. The potential for abuse of power is way to high for my liking.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:03 PM
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My Honda doesn't have auto-pilot, but it has a couple of features that makes it hard to fall asleep at the wheel. If you stray across the lines on the road for too long, it will pull the steering back straight and if you start swaying, it vibrates the steering wheel and if you go below a certain level an alarm sounds. Plus it will automatically brake if someone pulls up in front of you and you don't apply the brakes*. If the police car pulled in front of me and I got too close the car would stop. In addition, the cruise control automatically adjusts speed to the car in front, keeping a safe distance as the car in front slows down and i suspect at some point the auto braking system would kick in.
Autopilot is a brand name for what are essentially the above functions on a Tesla (details will be different, of course). I thought everyone was aware of that because of the case a couple years ago when a car on Autopilot failed to see a semi-truck making a turn and crashed into it. Since the driver died, that got massive press, but I guess not everyone paid attention.

Autopilot also requires some pressure or weight on the steering wheel or it gives some kind of warning. The pressure/weight is supposed to be applied by the driver's hands. However, this can be bypassed by certain cupholders that attach to the steering wheel.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:25 PM
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Tesla Autopilot is specific to Tesla and I'm fully aware of what it is and it's difference from true auto-pilot (autopilot) capability. Some planes have had auto-pilot capability for decades, even the ability to land themselves without any interaction from the pilot(s). Auto-pilot as I used in my post was to clarify that my car doesn't have the capability to move and maneuver as one with Tesla Autopilot or true auto-pilot car can and was a speculative possibility of how a car could travel 7 miles even if I was semi-or fully conscious.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:35 PM
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As with many "I thoughr everyone was aware of that..." statements, it presumes a shared knowledge and interest of local, national or international news. I often don't read the news for personal reasons, and while I've heard of Tesla's Autopilot capability, it wasn't until this year with the multiple accidents/fatalities in Tesls Autopilot cars (resulting in multiple news stories about them) was I aware (or had any mild interest in) how it works.

Last edited by lingyi; 12-06-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 02:44 PM
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Without the Autopilot, there'd have been a crash with potential injuries.
There is no way to know this. Scores of drunks make it home safe every single day/night. Or the next day, after waking up in some Walmart parking lot.
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Old 12-06-2018, 04:25 PM
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Tesla Autopilot is specific to Tesla and I'm fully aware of what it is and it's difference from true auto-pilot (autopilot) capability. Some planes have had auto-pilot capability for decades, even the ability to land themselves without any interaction from the pilot(s). Auto-pilot as I used in my post was to clarify that my car doesn't have the capability to move and maneuver as one with Tesla Autopilot or true auto-pilot car can and was a speculative possibility of how a car could travel 7 miles even if I was semi-or fully conscious.
Edit: ...even if I was semi or fully unconscious.

Dang lingyi! Proofread!
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:16 AM
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Auto-pilot is an asinine name for a driver assist system that isn't a true auto-pilot system.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:23 PM
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There is no way to know this. Scores of drunks make it home safe every single day/night. Or the next day, after waking up in some Walmart parking lot.
Yes, there is a way to know this. The car drove for 7 miles with the driver too unconscious to notice police sirens and lights. If the Autopilot hadn't been turned on, the car would have left its lane and either hit another car or gone off the road as soon as there was a curve in the road.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:23 PM
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The only thing I can't figure out is why it took so long to bring the car to a stop. All they had to do is get in front of it with another car and slow down. Which is what they did, but it should have only taken a few hundred meters, not seven miles. I guess they were just too cautious.
I don't think anyone has answered this yet. This story made the local news here because it was a California story.

The reason it took a while is that the first police car called for backup. When the second police car arrived, it dropped in behind the Tesla and operated as a rolling roadblock, swerving back and forth across the freeway and gradually reducing speed in order to slow down traffic. After a few minutes, this created a significant gap between the Tesla and the rest of the traffic on the freeway. This allowed the first police car to then get in front of the Tesla and slow it down without placing other drivers at risk.

I've seen the CHP do these sorts of rolling slowdowns a number of times since we moved to California. It's not even always clear why they're doing it.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:31 PM
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The police procedures are designed to intimidate a driver and get them to slow down and eventually stop.

It's hard to predict how a Tesla system would react to that type of aggressive driving. The Tesla system tries to avoid collisions. It must have been very confused by these police cars deliberately trying to block it's path.

A dangerous situation since no one knows how this car's programming will react to police maneuvers.

Last edited by aceplace57; 12-09-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:39 PM
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A similar problem could be created in a road rage incident. Some idiot aggresively passing, slamming on their brakes, flipping the bird, and speeding off. The auto pilot has no idea WTF is happening.

Real world situations that is hard to predict in programming.

I know as a programmer that I would tend to base my code on the assumption the other drivers are driving safely. I'd put in code for defensive driving but it would he incredibly challenging to think of every possible situation.

Last edited by aceplace57; 12-09-2018 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:43 PM
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Auto-pilot is an asinine name for a driver assist system that isn't a true auto-pilot system.
In Tesla speak, autopilot is a suite of driver assists which includes:
  • Traffic-Aware cruise control (TACC) which gives the car the ability to slow down and speedup in response to a vehicle in front of it. This is fairly common in modern cars, and what in this story (probably) stopped the car. If this had been a Toyota whose adaptive stop-and-go cruise control had halted the car, I don't think it would have made national news.
  • Autosteer "a BETA feature". This is what gives the car the ability to hold a lane on its own. In this story, this is what kept the car from driving off the road or into another lane. I don't think this is very common in modern cars.
  • Autopark for parallel and back in parking. This is reasonably common, and not relevant to this story.
  • Lane assist warns of drifting out of the lane by vibrating the steering wheel, or will prevent changing lanes into another car. If the driver wasn't completely unconscious, but just drunk, this might have helped. At least the warnings provided by this are common on modern cars.
  • Collision avoidance assist provides forward collision warning and automatic emergency braking. I believe this is required on new cars.
  • Speed assist is just a visual and optionally auditory warning when the driver exceeds the speed limit. I don't know how common this is, but I've driven other cars with it.
  • Navigate on autopilot is probably the closest to what we think of as self-driving. If a route is programed into the navigation system; navigate on autopilot is enabled (required for each trip); and the driver actively confirms, the car is able to change lanes to pass slower cars, take exits, and negotiate interchanges.
I don't think autopilot is too much of a misnomer when compared to what aircraft autopilot actually does versus the myth of what it does. It doesn't fly and land the plane all on its own, but rather, when appropriately configured and active can remove some of the flying load from the pilot by taking over certain flight operations.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
The police procedures are designed to intimidate a driver and get them to slow down and eventually stop.

It's hard to predict how a Tesla system would react to that type of aggressive driving. The Tesla system tries to avoid collisions. It must have been very confused by these police cars deliberately trying to block it's path.

A dangerous situation since no one knows how this car's programming will react to police maneuvers.
I don't think this will be a problem for the car, as it is a situation it is designed to handle. I encounter it daily on my commute. Where I enter the freeway traffic is typically moving at 60-80 mph, and within 2-3 miles it slows to 0-50. The autosteer and cruise control just handle it. The camera and radar see slower moving cars in front, so they slow down the car to match speed or stop.

I have the car set to keep a 3 second or so gap to the next car. Cars often move into that gap. The car slows a bit to maintain a 3 second spacing to the new car it is following. Sometimes people cut right in front of me, as they'll do, and the car has to brake hard to avoid a problem, just as I would if I was driving on my own.

Really, a slower moving vehicle in front, or even suddenly appearing in front, is not what confuses the autopilot. The things that confuse it that wouldn't confuse a human driver are things like a car briefly being in front (for example a car cutting across my lane), a car partially drifting into and out of my lane, or the very occasional shadow across the road.

The car occasionally slows down when it doesn't need to, I've never had the car fail to slow down when it should, though I don't know if this is 100% true, as there are several times I've hit the brakes on autopilot because I (correctly) predicted a troublesome situation before the autopilot detected the problem. For example, guessing that a car is going to make an unsafe lane change, or that traffic in front of me is slowing faster than the car in front of me is reacting.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
The police procedures are designed to intimidate a driver and get them to slow down and eventually stop.
Do tell us more about police procedures. It sounds, from this post, like you have a really sophisticated understanding of what went on in this case.
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It's hard to predict how a Tesla system would react to that type of aggressive driving. The Tesla system tries to avoid collisions. It must have been very confused by these police cars deliberately trying to block it's path.

A dangerous situation since no one knows how this car's programming will react to police maneuvers.
You understand that the Tesla doesn't know that the car slowing down in front of it is a police car, right? They literally drove in front of the Tesla, and then gradually slowed down as if it were just like regular slowing traffic. The Tesla then did what it does when traffic slows down, and slowed down also, until both the police car and the Tesla came to a halt.

There were no "police maneuvers." What did you think they were doing here? Trying a PIT maneuver?
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:22 PM
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I was responding to mhendos post regarding CHP and rolling slowdowns.

I'm not sure why anyone would question that the police train to stop moving cars. It's a routine part of their job. I've seen news reports over the years that include police training.

Obviously those procedures aren't discussed in great detail. We can only guess by what's shown in news footage of cars being pursued and stopped.

Those procedures were developed long before Tesla developed auto-pilot. You can't expect a computer to respond in the same way as a human.

Last edited by aceplace57; 12-09-2018 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
In Tesla speak, autopilot is a suite of driver assists which includes:
  • Traffic-Aware cruise control (TACC) which gives the car the ability to slow down and speedup in response to a vehicle in front of it. This is fairly common in modern cars, and what in this story (probably) stopped the car. If this had been a Toyota whose adaptive stop-and-go cruise control had halted the car, I don't think it would have made national news.
  • Autosteer "a BETA feature". This is what gives the car the ability to hold a lane on its own. In this story, this is what kept the car from driving off the road or into another lane. I don't think this is very common in modern cars.
  • Autopark for parallel and back in parking. This is reasonably common, and not relevant to this story.
  • Lane assist warns of drifting out of the lane by vibrating the steering wheel, or will prevent changing lanes into another car. If the driver wasn't completely unconscious, but just drunk, this might have helped. At least the warnings provided by this are common on modern cars.
  • Collision avoidance assist provides forward collision warning and automatic emergency braking. I believe this is required on new cars.
  • Speed assist is just a visual and optionally auditory warning when the driver exceeds the speed limit. I don't know how common this is, but I've driven other cars with it.
  • Navigate on autopilot is probably the closest to what we think of as self-driving. If a route is programed into the navigation system; navigate on autopilot is enabled (required for each trip); and the driver actively confirms, the car is able to change lanes to pass slower cars, take exits, and negotiate interchanges.
I don't think autopilot is too much of a misnomer when compared to what aircraft autopilot actually does versus the myth of what it does. It doesn't fly and land the plane all on its own, but rather, when appropriately configured and active can remove some of the flying load from the pilot by taking over certain flight operations.
Some planes can fly and land themselves (AutoLand):

"So what exactly is the autopilot?

It is what the name suggests—the autopilot flies the airplane without the human pilots controlling "hands on."

"Basically it is a computer that is running very, very fast," said Paul Robinson, president and CEO of AeroTech Research. "It can almost fly the plane completely between takeoff and landing."

The autopilot system relies on a series of sensors around the aircraft that pick up information like speed, altitude and turbulence. That data are ingested into the computer, which then makes the necessary changes. Basically, it can do almost everything a pilot can do. Key phrase: almost everything.
Before takeoff, the pilot will enter the route into the computer, giving it a start and end position and exactly how to get there. Throughout that route there are a series of points that the computer will note, each having its own speed and altitude.

The autopilot does not steer the airplane on the ground or taxi the plane at the gate. Generally, the pilot will handle takeoff and then initiate the autopilot to take over for most of the flight. In some newer aircraft models, autopilot systems will even land the plane."

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/03/26/auto...d-cant-do.html

"Autolands Explained….

Yes a plane can land by itself using a system that is often referred to as “autoland”. The pilots can program the auto pilot to carry out the landing automatically whilst the pilots monitor the aircraft. However there are limitations as to when the autoland system can be used.

Automatic landings probably account for less then 1% of all landings on commercial flights. Many pilots actually think it’s much easier to land the aircraft manually, as monitoring the auto pilot in the autoland stage of flight is itself very demanding with a very high level of vigilance required at all stages."

https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/can...-automatically
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:46 PM
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I was responding to mhendos post regarding CHP and rolling slowdowns.

I'm not sure why anyone would question that the police train to stop moving cars. It's a routine part of their job. I've seen news reports over the years that include police training.

Obviously those procedures aren't discussed in great detail. We can only guess by what's shown in news footage of cars being pursued and stopped.

Those procedures were developed long before Tesla developed auto-pilot. You can't expect a computer to respond in the same way as a human.
Jesus Christ on a Cracker. Do you understand what even happened in this particular case?

The procedures that police train with for stopping fleeing drivers are NOT the same procedures they used to stop this Tesla. The training they receive to stop drivers in pursuits involve all sort of things, like spike strips, PIT maneuvers, blocking cars in, etc., etc.

But all of these procedures assume a driver who is actively and intentionally trying to flee from the police. That's not what was happening here.

The driver was asleep, and the car was, for all intents and purposes, driving itself. To stop the car, they didn't need any of the standard pursuit techniques. They just needed to create a situation where the autopilot would make the decision to slow down and then stop. And they did this by driving in front of the car and gradually slowing down so that the autopilot was basically fooled into thinking it was coming up on a traffic jam.

Do you understand the difference between these two types of stops now?
  #30  
Old 12-09-2018, 02:53 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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I'm fully aware of the circumstances of this case.

You're blowing my comments completely out of proportion.

I was simply saying the AI's response could have been unpredictable. It worked out in this case. The situation may be different in other cases.

I wasn't challenging your post in any way what so ever. I understand this was a gradual slowdown in front of the Tesla.

Last edited by aceplace57; 12-09-2018 at 02:55 PM.
  #31  
Old 12-09-2018, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I was simply saying the AI's response could have been unpredictable. It worked out in this case. The situation may be different in other cases.
If it's going to be "unpredictable" because of a car slowing down in front of it, traffic lights and intersections are just going to blow its tiny fucking mind.

No, a car in front of you gradually slowing down isn't "aggressive driving" and a Tesla isn't going to interpret it that way. It's just going to say "beep boop car in front of me slowing down better do the same thing beep boop."

It's not "responding to police maneuvers", it's responding to what an object in front of it is doing.
  #32  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:21 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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This article and the article linked from it gives details the original article didn't

The police saw and suspected the driver was sleeping.
The car was doing 70 when first spotted.
The start of the 7 minute measurement began from the time the car was spotted.
Their were other cars on the road behind the car which police stopped or slowed.
The police suspected the car was on Autopilot.
The police chose to slow and stop the car by pulling in front and slowing down until it stopped.
This wasn't part of a standard police procedure.

A car traveling at 70mph is traveling over a mile a minute. So if it the police spent 1 minute behind the car with flashing lights and siren, over a mile had passed.
Even if it took then 1 minute (unlikely) to organize a slowdown of the cars behind and removal of cars on the alongside or near the Tesla, that's a another mile passed
Give another minute to get the all clear to begin the slowdown maneuver and another mile has passed.
Now we're down to four miles in which to safely slow down a car that isn't a danger to anyone else other the driver and you're looking at maybe 5-6 minutes minimum to bring the car safely to a stop within seven miles.
  #33  
Old 12-09-2018, 08:26 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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My non-autopilot car automatically brakes slowly when a car cuts in front of me and will stop completely at ~10mph or more if someone stops in front of me too close. The slowdown works even quicker if I'm using cruise control. So if my dumb non-autopilot Honda can do that, an "Autopilot" Tesla will surely handle a car slowing down in front of it even better.

Last edited by lingyi; 12-09-2018 at 08:26 PM.
  #34  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:01 PM
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I was responding to mhendos post regarding CHP and rolling slowdowns.
As you are in this post. Are you aware of that?
  #35  
Old 12-09-2018, 10:24 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
This article and the article linked from it gives details the original article didn't

The police saw and suspected the driver was sleeping.
The car was doing 70 when first spotted.
The start of the 7 minute measurement began from the time the car was spotted.
Their were other cars on the road behind the car which police stopped or slowed.
The police suspected the car was on Autopilot.
The police chose to slow and stop the car by pulling in front and slowing down until it stopped.
This wasn't part of a standard police procedure.

A car traveling at 70mph is traveling over a mile a minute. So if it the police spent 1 minute behind the car with flashing lights and siren, over a mile had passed.
Even if it took then 1 minute (unlikely) to organize a slowdown of the cars behind and removal of cars on the alongside or near the Tesla, that's a another mile passed
Give another minute to get the all clear to begin the slowdown maneuver and another mile has passed.
Now we're down to four miles in which to safely slow down a car that isn't a danger to anyone else other the driver and you're looking at maybe 5-6 minutes minimum to bring the car safely to a stop within seven miles.
Arghhh..link to article: https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-sl...est-autopilot/

"The start of the 7 MILE measurement was started when the car was spotted."

Last edited by lingyi; 12-09-2018 at 10:27 PM.
  #36  
Old Yesterday, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I'm fully aware of the circumstances of this case.

You're blowing my comments completely out of proportion.

I was simply saying the AI's response could have been unpredictable. It worked out in this case. The situation may be different in other cases.

I wasn't challenging your post in any way what so ever. I understand this was a gradual slowdown in front of the Tesla.
I don't know for sure that the police were with it enough to have procedures, but I live in the Bay Area, Tesla HQ is not far from the site of this incident, and the Tesla factory is right across the Bay. There are a shitload of Teslas around here, so procedures for stopping a runaway car on autopilot would seem reasonable.
Plus, automatic braking is hardly rare these days. My new car has it also. I'm not sure I'd call it AI - it is more algorithmic, I'd suspect.
  #37  
Old Yesterday, 03:06 AM
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I know as a programmer that I would tend to base my code on the assumption the other drivers are driving safely.
Oh hell no. Why would you assume something that you know won't be true? The road is full of assholes, you need to program for that. Programming with the assumption that everybody will be playing nice is like programming for the ocean to be dry.
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  #38  
Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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People are making the stopping of the car a bigger deal because the driver was drunk and asleep a the wheel. If he had been unconscious because of a medical condition (e.g. heart attack) or medication, there were have been no villiany, and the incident much less sensational. The police didn't know what caused the driver to APPEAR to be unconscious and decided to use a slow and safe way to stop the car given what they knew about the situation. There have been cases where police used stronger actions that resulted in serious injury or death of a driver who had a heart attack or other non-criminal situation.
  #39  
Old Yesterday, 07:21 PM
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This did get me curious, how would a Tesla (or any car) on autopilot respond to a PIT manuever?

My guess is a Tesla would detect a car was coming into its lane and attempt to take evasive action. Assuming the police were successful in making contact, the traction and stability control would attempt to prevent a skid. At some point the car would probably decide it had been in an accident and stop.
  #40  
Old Yesterday, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echoreply View Post
This did get me curious, how would a Tesla (or any car) on autopilot respond to a PIT manuever?

My guess is a Tesla would detect a car was coming into its lane and attempt to take evasive action. Assuming the police were successful in making contact, the traction and stability control would attempt to prevent a skid. At some point the car would probably decide it had been in an accident and stop.
I'm assuming and hoping the Autopilot takes into account the risk of evading the hit vs heading into an uncontrolled skid. And while the Autopilot computer is fast, it's no match for the skill and knowledge of a trained driver.* And I would assume and hope the autopilot would stop after an impact.

*Pilots, but non-military and non-military have stories about how they were able to avert disaster by disabling or overriding their plane's autopilot, which has far better capabilities of any car autopilot.

Edit: If you watch videos of real life PIT maneuvers, it's more a push, rather than the ram show in the movies.So at most the Tesla would likely just move a foot over to avoid the oncoming car.

Last edited by lingyi; Yesterday at 07:40 PM.
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