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  #32801  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:32 AM
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Anyone who says, or believes, that Trump wants televised impeachment hearings to fire up his base is not paying attention to what Trump is saying and doing. Did y'all just see that impromptu press conference he had?

Seriously, arguing against impeachment is living in your head. The man knows he's fucked*, the only thing which will enable him is moral cowardice on our part.
And another "Infrastructure Week" goes by the boards. The running joke just gets longer and longer.

The arguments against impeachment are all political. The arguments for impeachment are moral/ethical/precedent-based. I honestly don't know which is stronger -- I'm leaning pragmatic: which one is most likely to get rid of the bastard and take his party with him.

*best line in the recent film Long Shot: "as fucked as a step-mom on pornhub."
  #32802  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:40 AM
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And another "Infrastructure Week" goes by the boards. The running joke just gets longer and longer.

The arguments against impeachment are all political. The arguments for impeachment are moral/ethical/precedent-based. I honestly don't know which is stronger -- I'm leaning pragmatic: which one is most likely to get rid of the bastard and take his party with him.

*best line in the recent film Long Shot: "as fucked as a step-mom on pornhub."
Yes.
And on the pragmatic side of things; the democrats look more and more ineffectual the longer they don't use whatever means at their disposal - impeachment, contempt of congress etc. - to put an end to this shitshow.
Fuck "politics".
I think someone already said it either here or in one of the other related threads; It's time for the democrats to take the moral/ethical stand and stop weighing the supposed political cost.
  #32803  
Old 05-22-2019, 12:40 PM
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And on the pragmatic side of things; the democrats look more and more ineffectual the longer they don't use whatever means at their disposal - impeachment, contempt of congress etc. - to put an end to this shitshow.
Well, that's the rub, isn't it?

There's no way they can put an end to the shitshow by themselves. They need willing Republicans or to win big in 2020. That's the pragmatism. Contempt of Congress and the various investigations doesn't end the shitshow - it nabs a few of the rats without doing much about the nest.

There are pragmatic arguments FOR allowing impeachment to proceed, e.g. the evidence is so shocking to the public that Senate Republicans will have no choice but to concede or it rallies the base and the country to do the right thing in 2020 or some other political calculation.

But the idea that the Dems are being ineffectual by not taking this action or that action is pretty fucking stupid. They are currently and have been building solid legal cases against the various players instead of doing the flashy move that plays well in the moment. From the peanut gallery, it seems they are making good strategic plays. Against that, the complaints seem to be they "seem" to look ineffectual.

I guess perception can be a part of power, but many, if not most, of the complaints I've seen have revolved around the Dems lacking on style. Well, they have been concentrating on substance. Not that style isn't important but the "appearance" of ineffectiveness is a bunk argument in my book.

There have been 2 Presidential impeachments in the history of this nation and both have been primarily politically motivated and both failed. There would have been a third (and the only one that would have been successful), but the legal bits were well established before the actual impeachment could come about. And even then it took years to get to that point. Seems like a similar pattern is playing out here. The legal bits are getting established, and it's taking time to put those bits into play in the right way. If it seems like it's taking a long time, well, it is, but that's the way we set up this country. Blaming the Dems for "appearing" weak by laying down the groundwork first before taking decisive action is self-defeating.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 05-22-2019 at 12:41 PM.
  #32804  
Old 05-22-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Anyone who says, or believes, that Trump wants televised impeachment hearings to fire up his base is not paying attention to what Trump is saying and doing. Did y'all just see that impromptu press conference he had?

Seriously, arguing against impeachment is living in your head. The man knows he's fucked, the only thing which will enable him is moral cowardice on our part.
That "impromptu" press conference with pre-printed flyers and posters?
  #32805  
Old 05-22-2019, 01:55 PM
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That "impromptu" press conference with pre-printed flyers and posters?
That's how you know he's playing 4d chess and is always in control - he anticipates like no other .....
  #32806  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:07 PM
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Yes.
And on the pragmatic side of things; the democrats look more and more ineffectual the longer they don't use whatever means at their disposal - impeachment, contempt of congress etc. - to put an end to this shitshow.
Fuck "politics".
I think someone already said it either here or in one of the other related threads; It's time for the democrats to take the moral/ethical stand and stop weighing the supposed political cost.
Half the days I'm pissed at Pelosi for dragging this thing out, the other half I'm admiring of Pelosi for dragging this thing out.

But, as Great Antibob* notes, the Democrats are building a case, brick by brick. Each time the Administration ignores a subpoena, each time they say "Fock you" on Faux News, each time they ignore a legal request, all of that helps lay the foundation for impeachment.

Think of it this way**: You don't pay your credit card bill. Just refuse to, even though you have a $3k balance on it. Does the credit card company immediately sue you? No, they send out a series of letters and other communications before they ever get to that step so that when they get in front of a judge, who will ask "Did you notify the defendant" they can reply "Yes, here is a list of all our correspondence and demands". Then the judge turns to you and says "Well...?"

That's what the Dems are doing. They're at the "sending demand letters so they can ignore them so we can strengthen our impeachment case down the road" stage.

*What do you have against my Dad, anyway?

** Saw this analogy on Twitter from some legal eagle, so it's not original with me.

Last edited by JohnT; 05-22-2019 at 02:08 PM.
  #32807  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:36 PM
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Nelson Muntz laugh: HA-ha!

NY state passes bill allowing Congress to request Trump's tax returns


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Democrats in New York state passed a pair of bills Wednesday that would allow Congress to get hold of President Donald Trump's state tax returns amid an escalating fight with top administration officials over access to the President's federal returns.

The main legislation, which passed the state assembly 84 to 53, would require the state's tax commissioner to provide New York state tax returns to Congress upon request from the House Ways and Means Committee, the Senate Finance Committee, or the Joint Committee on Taxation. A second bill also passed Wednesday restricts requests to elected officials only and mandates the removal of any federal tax information that might appear on state returns.
I'm not an accountant and my TurboTax filings aren't very complicated and most of my federal info gets copied into my state form, so what would be in Trump's federal filings that wouldn't show up in his state filings?
  #32808  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:38 PM
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That's what the Dems are doing. They're at the "sending demand letters so they can ignore them so we can strengthen our impeachment case down the road" stage.
But at what point should they start a formal impeachment inquiry? What do they gain by delaying it?

Last edited by scr4; 05-22-2019 at 02:38 PM.
  #32809  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:44 PM
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Timing, it seems, is the answer here. Why shoot your wad prior to the election season?
  #32810  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:47 PM
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Anyone who says, or believes, that Trump wants televised impeachment hearings to fire up his base is not paying attention to what Trump is saying and doing. Did y'all just see that impromptu press conference he had?

Seriously, arguing against impeachment is living in your head. The man knows he's fucked, the only thing which will enable him is moral cowardice on our part.
I don't see moral cowardice. It's not like the House isn't trying to do its proper oversight; it's just that he's basically saying "Fuck you! Come and get me." There's no question there's a case for impeachment - there was the first week he was in office. It's a much stronger statement for a democracy if people auditioning to be tyrants can be thrown out of power by 65 million people saying "No, fuck YOU!" rather than a few hundred representatives whose sentiments may or may not be in alignment.

People want to view this as a moral struggle, and I agree that it is. But who put Trump in power in the first place? Was it Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan, or was it millions of deplorables. Sorry, bud, but it's the deplorables we have to defeat as much as, maybe more than, Trump himself. Maybe not defeat so much as convince that they made the wrong choice in the last election.

Last edited by asahi; 05-22-2019 at 02:49 PM.
  #32811  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:49 PM
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Uh, no. Unless you're going out there, fists-a-ready, I have absolutely no idea what is meant by "it's the Deplorables we have to beat...".

Cut off the head, watch the body freak out. Not worried about that - it'll at least no longer have a head.
  #32812  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
Nelson Muntz laugh: HA-ha!

NY state passes bill allowing Congress to request Trump's tax returns




I'm not an accountant and my TurboTax filings aren't very complicated and most of my federal info gets copied into my state form, so what would be in Trump's federal filings that wouldn't show up in his state filings?
Agreed.

It also puts more pressure on the Treasury. Any kind of funny business on his state return is going to get some spotlight now, and it'll make Mnuchin look dumb the more he tries to stonewall.
  #32813  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:53 PM
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Uh, no. Unless you're going out there, fists-a-ready, I have absolutely no idea what is meant by "it's the Deplorables we have to beat...".

Cut off the head, watch the body freak out. Not worried about that - it'll at least no longer have a head.
I mean by rejecting their version of America. It's their country, but it's ours just as much, and we have to make that clear in every election from now on.
  #32814  
Old 05-22-2019, 02:57 PM
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And how do you "reject their vision of America" if you allow this President to continue committing crimes?

I mean, seriously, Asahi. "Do nothing, ever" is never a plan.
  #32815  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:03 PM
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And how do you "reject their vision of America" if you allow this President to continue committing crimes?

I mean, seriously, Asahi. "Do nothing, ever" is never a plan.
Where did I say we should allow him to continue committing crimes? I'm not against investigations, but we already know that impeachment - right now - isn't going to work. It's just going to backfire on the Democrats and serve as a huge distraction for their 2020 message. That is exactly what Trump and Republicans want, for Democrats to get off message and for voters to come to the conclusion that no matter whom they elect, the only thing that congress can achieve is more partisan bickering and hackery. Yes, Congress needs to keep requesting documents from the president, and I'm a fan of finding creative ways to do that at the state level if they must.

I'm certainly NOT saying never impeach - there may be time to impeach him just yet but there's no evidence that it's a good idea right now. If the trade war starts slowing growth and causing unemployment, well then maybe that's a game-changer.
  #32816  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:10 PM
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Point to any plan of action you have endorsed. Because I have yet to see it.
  #32817  
Old 05-22-2019, 03:50 PM
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Point to any plan of action you have endorsed. Because I have yet to see it.
Continue trying to legislate, and work on winning the campaign in 2020, which is just as effective as an impeachment to nowhere. We can talk impeachment once the poll numbers warrant it.

Last edited by asahi; 05-22-2019 at 03:51 PM.
  #32818  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:46 PM
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That "impromptu" press conference with pre-printed flyers and posters?
Look at this fuckin joker. Excuse me, I mean so-called president.
(Click the picture to make it bigger if you're old like me and want to read the signs.)
https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newsc....fit-2000w.jpg
  #32819  
Old 05-22-2019, 04:50 PM
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And in the "Trump isn't a racist piece of dogshit" department, no Harriet Tubman on the $20 after all.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...-says-n1008861
  #32820  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:06 PM
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For the second time in a week, a judge has ruled in favor of Congress over Trump. First, it was about the handing over of documents from Trump's accountants, Mazars USA. Now a judge has ruled that Trump can't block the subpoenas issued by Congress to Deutsche Bank and Capital One for documents. The Deutsche Bank trove could prove highly significant.
  #32821  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:20 PM
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And in the "Trump isn't a racist piece of dogshit" department, no Harriet Tubman on the $20 after all.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/bus...-says-n1008861
"Mnuchin said that the design process has been delayed, and no new imagery will be unveiled until 2028."

Delayed for EIGHT YEARS? To design a banknote? I'm sorry, but that's bullshit.


In Canada:
November 2013 - Historian and author Merna Forster launched a petition that asked the central bank to recognize the achievements of women by placing noted Canadians on bank notes.

November 2014 - The petition has garnered more than 50,000 signatures.

March - April 2016 - nominations for notable women leads to a long list of 461 Iconic Canadian Women.

August 2016 - shortlist down to 12 names


December 2016 - Noted Canadian civil rights defender Viola Desmond chosen to be on the new $10 banknote. Design process begins

November 2018 - Viola Desmond $10 note enters circulation.

April 2019 - Canada's Viola Desmond banknote wins international banknote of the year design.

SIX YEARS from petition to international award.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 05-22-2019 at 05:21 PM.
  #32822  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:28 PM
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That "impromptu" press conference with pre-printed flyers and posters?
And with the curtains closed so that no one could see the press being ushered to the Rose Garden BEFORE Trump staged his walk-out?

Quote:
The curtains in the Cabinet Room were drawn. The Democrats were waiting. And President Donald Trump came and went in three minutes, never stopping to sit down or shake hands.

...White House reporters were summoned for an unscheduled news conference in the Rose Garden, photographers jockeying for position in the moments before the president appeared. And Trump held up a printed version of an ABC News graphic depicting the cost and breadth of special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe, but notably did not highlight its second page — the one that listed the number of indictments Mueller produced.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b0db9c2992680d

Trump may have miscalculated with this little stunt; it's being widely ridiculed.
  #32823  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:42 PM
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...There's no way they can put an end to the shitshow by themselves. They need willing Republicans or to win big in 2020.

...But the idea that the Dems are being ineffectual by not taking this action or that action is pretty fucking stupid. They are currently and have been building solid legal cases against the various players instead of doing the flashy move that plays well in the moment. From the peanut gallery, it seems they are making good strategic plays. Against that, the complaints seem to be they "seem" to look ineffectual.

... The legal bits are getting established, and it's taking time to put those bits into play in the right way. If it seems like it's taking a long time, well, it is, but that's the way we set up this country. Blaming the Dems for "appearing" weak by laying down the groundwork first before taking decisive action is self-defeating.
This, 100%. And we are seeing results:

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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
For the second time in a week, a judge has ruled in favor of Congress over Trump. First, it was about the handing over of documents from Trump's accountants, Mazars USA. Now a judge has ruled that Trump can't block the subpoenas issued by Congress to Deutsche Bank and Capital One for documents. The Deutsche Bank trove could prove highly significant.
Add to this the revelation of the IRS memo that completely dismisses the Trump/Mnuchin argument that they needn't turn over Trump's tax returns:

Quote:
... A confidential Internal Revenue Service legal memo says tax returns must be given to Congress ...

….According to the IRS memo, which has not been previously reported, the disclosure of tax returns to the committee “is mandatory, requiring the Secretary to disclose returns, and return information, requested by the tax-writing Chairs.” The 10-page document says the law “does not allow the Secretary to exercise discretion in disclosing the information provided the statutory conditions are met” and directly rejects the reason Mnuchin has cited for withholding the information. ...
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...s-to-congress/

Add to this the fact that the House is continuing to hold hearings and generate legislation on a variety of topics Americans prioritize over impeachment: pharmaceutical prices and other health care issues, housing, homeland security, environmental impacts, etc.

Yes, many who pay attention to politics are wanting Dramatic Action Now. But action is occurring now---subpoenas are being issued and courts are starting to reject the White House stonewalling efforts.

Impeachment should remain on the table. But the objective is to GET RID OF TRUMP. That---not feelings of impatience or desire for flashy moves, as Great Antibob put it so well---has to remain paramount.




galen ubal---asahi gave several answers to your posts that pretty much covered what I would have written. I think many arguing about impeachment are arguing past each other, but I'm still putting together what I hope will be a fair look at that premise. I'll post it before long.
  #32824  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:43 PM
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And with the curtains closed so that no one could see the press being ushered to the Rose Garden BEFORE Trump staged his walk-out?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump...b0db9c2992680d

Trump may have miscalculated with this little stunt; it's being widely ridiculed.
You gotta give it to Nancy Pelosi: nobody can needle Trump the way she can. She is a goddess.

Not only does she make Trump look like a complete whiny ass man baby, but chucking a potential bipartisan effort on infrastructure that could employ a lot of workers isn't really good optics for the president.
  #32825  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:47 PM
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You gotta give it to Nancy Pelosi: nobody can needle Trump the way she can. She is a goddess.

Not only does she make Trump look like a complete whiny ass man baby, but chucking a potential bipartisan effort on infrastructure that could employ a lot of workers isn't really good optics for the president.
Oh, yes indeed.

Quote:
Pelosi said congressional Democrats went to the White House “in a spirit of bipartisanship to find common ground” on infrastructure. She told reporters afterward: “For some reason, maybe it was lack of confidence on his part. ... he just took a pass.”
https://www.apnews.com/34f3711675e14bb6aed2e7349c4acacf

"Maybe it was a lack of confidence on his part..."----NOTHING is calculated to get under his skin more than that.
  #32826  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:55 PM
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There's no way they can put an end to the shitshow by themselves. They need willing Republicans or to win big in 2020. That's the pragmatism. Contempt of Congress and the various investigations doesn't end the shitshow - it nabs a few of the rats without doing much about the nest.

There are pragmatic arguments FOR allowing impeachment to proceed, e.g. the evidence is so shocking to the public that Senate Republicans will have no choice but to concede or it rallies the base and the country to do the right thing in 2020 or some other political calculation.

But the idea that the Dems are being ineffectual by not taking this action or that action is pretty fucking stupid. They are currently and have been building solid legal cases against the various players instead of doing the flashy move that plays well in the moment. From the peanut gallery, it seems they are making good strategic plays. Against that, the complaints seem to be they "seem" to look ineffectual.

I guess perception can be a part of power, but many, if not most, of the complaints I've seen have revolved around the Dems lacking on style. Well, they have been concentrating on substance. Not that style isn't important but the "appearance" of ineffectiveness is a bunk argument in my book.

There have been 2 Presidential impeachments in the history of this nation and both have been primarily politically motivated and both failed. There would have been a third (and the only one that would have been successful), but the legal bits were well established before the actual impeachment could come about. And even then it took years to get to that point. Seems like a similar pattern is playing out here. The legal bits are getting established, and it's taking time to put those bits into play in the right way. If it seems like it's taking a long time, well, it is, but that's the way we set up this country. Blaming the Dems for "appearing" weak by laying down the groundwork first before taking decisive action is self-defeating.
I missed this earlier, but largely agree with it.

In fact the point I was trying to make earlier in response to JohnT (admittedly, I may not have been so clear) was that it's not like there hasn't been congressional oversight. There are currently multiple investigations by several committees. That's not a 'do nothing' approach. The subpoenas are not meaningless. Every time they ask Trump for documents, it forces a response. Every time he responds by refusing to hand over documents and stonewalling, he looks bad.

The problem that we have, and I think this is what's frustrating to JohnT, to myself, and to everyone else, is that the Dems actually *are* doing a lot to try to bring the facts to light. Where I may disagree is that, right now, I don't think the majority of the public cares. The American public just doesn't like politics. They assume that the truth about Trump is probably bad but they don't know all of the dirt and, to some extent, they probably don't want to know -- right now.

But there will come a time when they will care more than they do now, and I think that when that moment comes, when the public finally realizes that Trump's America is hurting them, I think it'll be important to have the groundwork laid for his impeachment and removal from office, if voters don't remove him first next November, that is. So I have no problem whatsoever with hearings, subpoenas, lawsuits, investigations, and whatever else congress needs to do to assert oversight.

I just don't see any need to jump the gun by actually calling it "impeachment" and having "impeachment" proceedings. That might not seem like a great leap from what we're already doing but, symbolically, I think it's pretty damn big. Reversing an election isn't small potatoes. It's far better and more powerful to defeat him at the ballot box. At minimum, if we're going to reverse an election, it needs to be evident to not just democrats but a lot of Republicans that Trump's bullshit isn't going to sell anymore. We're not there yet. I don't think we're even that close.

Last edited by asahi; 05-22-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #32827  
Old 05-22-2019, 05:58 PM
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Oh, yes indeed.

https://www.apnews.com/34f3711675e14bb6aed2e7349c4acacf

"Maybe it was a lack of confidence on his part..."----NOTHING is calculated to get under his skin more than that.
I missed that, but holy crap does she have him pegged.

"Maybe it was a lack of confidence on his part" -- ROFLMAO.

Friggin epic insult!
  #32828  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:15 PM
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In news of the stupid, Ben Carson is appearing before Congress today.

1. Agreed with AOC on a number of issues, which I'm sure will just go over splendidly.
2. Doesn't know the difference between an REO and an Oreo:

https://twitter.com/RepKatiePorter/s...89201455685633
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  #32829  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:16 PM
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I missed that, but holy crap does she have him pegged.

"Maybe it was a lack of confidence on his part" -- ROFLMAO.

Friggin epic insult!
And let's not forget her recent zinging of Bill Barr. Barr chuckled in his Fox News interview when recounting his "handcuffs" comment to Pelosi, but claimed not to have heard her response.
  #32830  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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And let's not forget her recent zinging of Bill Barr. Barr chuckled in his Fox News interview when recounting his "handcuffs" comment to Pelosi, but claimed not to have heard her response.
That was marvelous, but I laughed hardest today at Adam Schiff's characterization of Bill Barr. He said, "I think Bill Barr has all the duplicity of Rudy Giuliani without all the good looks and general likability of Rudy Guliani."

My laughter scared the dog.
  #32831  
Old 05-22-2019, 06:47 PM
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Why do you hate radishes?
After all, you can pull a radish into the sunshine.
  #32832  
Old 05-22-2019, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
But at what point should they start a formal impeachment inquiry? What do they gain by delaying it?
The Dems need to show that they've taken every possible measure to gain cooperation. Then it will go to the Supreme Court, which could very well side with Barr and his iDJiT depending on Roberts. If there's a single box unchecked, the court will have a perfect excuse to say, "tsk, tsk, this isn't a good-faith effort, try again." If SCOTUS then basically ratifies the unitary executive theory, impeachment will begin. It sucks that we have to climb this greasy ladder, but nothing else stands a chance of exposing McConnell and his minions as the Orange-Toad-Lickers they are.

And frankly, if the Dems don't then sweep it in 2020, I will give up on the nation I loved.
  #32833  
Old 05-22-2019, 07:37 PM
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And let's not forget her recent zinging of Bill Barr. Barr chuckled in his Fox News interview when recounting his "handcuffs" comment to Pelosi, but claimed not to have heard her response.
But most of all, let's not forget that she delivered Trump's ass to him during the shutdown. She wounded him. Not mortally as it would turn out, but she exposed Trump's vulnerability. You beat Trump by letting Trump beat himself. Call it, political aikido. She's the sensei. I think Pelosi is one of the few people who really understands the dynamics. She might not have the idealism, the passion, the intensity, the authenticity, or whatever, but she understands power. What people don't understand about Trump is that Trump understands power. Pelosi understands it as well, in a way that few do. She is, in my view, Trump's most dangerous opponent.

Last edited by asahi; 05-22-2019 at 07:39 PM.
  #32834  
Old 05-22-2019, 07:47 PM
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<snip>The problem that we have, and I think this is what's frustrating to JohnT, to myself, and to everyone else, is that the Dems actually *are* doing a lot to try to bring the facts to light. Where I may disagree is that, right now, I don't think the majority of the public cares. The American public just doesn't like politics. They assume that the truth about Trump is probably bad but they don't know all of the dirt and, to some extent, they probably don't want to know -- right now.<snip>.
Guess we run in different crowds. I don't know anyone that is not incensed at what is going on. I don't hang with Trump supporters, but I suspect SOME of them are getting a clue but are not willing to not back their racist dog. And some are too embarrassed to admit they backed this crook and are hoping that somehow, this will be turned around and they can crow about what a great President he is.

They. Are. Wrong.
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  #32835  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:43 PM
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The real issue is that politics in the USA has become sport.
Instead of being interested in the difficult and often tedious business of the just and ethical governance of the nation, far too many have chosen the easy entertainment of cheering their "team" to victory.
  #32836  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:49 PM
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I want to trust Pelosi. (I don't trust Schumer.) And not much makes me happier when she gets off a good zinger. But I don't know if she's doing the right thing here. Or for the right reasons.

I'm not saying IMPEACHMENT STARTS TOMORROW OR I VOTE GOP IN 2020, but... I don't know if the Dems fully appreciate that they're in charge in the House based on a massive wave of enthusiasm. If it appears they're being conservative and playing towards the swing and moderate voters, they're going to lose the more strident wing. Now, we're not going to vote R, but we just might not vote at all. If it's hard and inconvenient, why would someone who felt the Dems aren't doing their best go through all the effort? (Not me personally. I vote every time. Just imagining the average lefty.)

So. Is Pelosi just slow playing this? I love a good slow play in poker. I love watching a perfect trap in the WSOP. I love putting someone on tilt when I do it. Is she just giving him room to hang himself? Waiting to time it better for 2020? I can give her the benefit of the doubt but outside of her zingers and a few individual Reps, it feels like the House line is "Well, that's just too bad that that happened." It doesn't feel like strategy but inertia.

I can be patient. But I can't abide cowardice and electoral caution. I know he won't be convicted in the Senate, but there could be at least hearings, Impeachment or not, in the House. I know some people are ducking and some are scheduled for June and some people are working things out, but it feels chaotic and haphazard. I need to see that they're taking this seriously and not afraid of swinging and missing.
  #32837  
Old 05-22-2019, 08:58 PM
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I want to trust Pelosi. (I don't trust Schumer.) And not much makes me happier when she gets off a good zinger. But I don't know if she's doing the right thing here. Or for the right reasons.

I'm not saying IMPEACHMENT STARTS TOMORROW OR I VOTE GOP IN 2020, but... I don't know if the Dems fully appreciate that they're in charge in the House based on a massive wave of enthusiasm. If it appears they're being conservative and playing towards the swing and moderate voters, they're going to lose the more strident wing. Now, we're not going to vote R, but we just might not vote at all. If it's hard and inconvenient, why would someone who felt the Dems aren't doing their best go through all the effort? (Not me personally. I vote every time. Just imagining the average lefty.)

So. Is Pelosi just slow playing this? I love a good slow play in poker. I love watching a perfect trap in the WSOP. I love putting someone on tilt when I do it. Is she just giving him room to hang himself? Waiting to time it better for 2020? I can give her the benefit of the doubt but outside of her zingers and a few individual Reps, it feels like the House line is "Well, that's just too bad that that happened." It doesn't feel like strategy but inertia.

I can be patient. But I can't abide cowardice and electoral caution. I know he won't be convicted in the Senate, but there could be at least hearings, Impeachment or not, in the House. I know some people are ducking and some are scheduled for June and some people are working things out, but it feels chaotic and haphazard. I need to see that they're taking this seriously and not afraid of swinging and missing.
Why not just read the constitution and understand that Pelosi is the speaker of one chamber of congress and can't accomplish shit without senate control? Is that so hard?

You wanna know why Republicans rule? It's because they and their voters, despite being a minority in terms of the popularity of their ideas, are obsessed with voting and power and control. They create non-profits for the sole purpose of taking control of every branch of government at every level. Progressives show up once every few years, vote, and either bitch about their guy losing and vow never to vote again or celebrate the night their candidate wins and then go back to living life and forgetting politics. That's not how power works. You have to be obsessed with having it, and using it against your enemies.
  #32838  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:42 PM
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"Interesting: @KatieHill4CA, who's in a frontline swing district just told me calls to her office have flipped from being 2 to 1 *against* impeachment to being 3 or 4 to 1 *for*."

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...437448704?s=19

Katie Hill is the Rep for CA25.
  #32839  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:55 PM
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"Interesting: @KatieHill4CA, who's in a frontline swing district just told me calls to her office have flipped from being 2 to 1 *against* impeachment to being 3 or 4 to 1 *for*."

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...437448704?s=19

Katie Hill is the Rep for CA25.
The tide is turning, and rather quickly. I've mentioned this before I'm sure, but I'll share it again:

There are 2 websites I check every single day. First is 538's Trump approval ratings. Those have recently entered a steady decline. Second is Steyer's Need to Impeach. Activity there runs in fits and starts. In the past few days, that thing is ticking over like a gas station pump at $6.00/gallon. They're heading toward 9 million.

Did you also hear today that Valerie Plame is running for Congress in 2020 in northern New Mexico (not sure which district)? She will do well.

Lastly, I'm so glad to see the courts moving quickly on Trump's continuing obstruction efforts. They are making it clear how ridiculous Trump's "legal" arguments are.
  #32840  
Old 05-22-2019, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
"Interesting: @KatieHill4CA, who's in a frontline swing district just told me calls to her office have flipped from being 2 to 1 *against* impeachment to being 3 or 4 to 1 *for*."

https://twitter.com/chrislhayes/stat...437448704?s=19

Katie Hill is the Rep for CA25.
In reddest Orange County.
  #32841  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:38 PM
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In reddest Orange County.
CA25 is over the mountains N of LA, so Palmdale, Lancaster, etc. Voting record there swings back and forth.

CA45 is Orange County.
  #32842  
Old 05-22-2019, 10:43 PM
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I want to believe Pelosi is slow playing but play too slow and it's all for naught.

It's not unlike Watergate. People and the Republican Congress were against impeachment. Until suddenly they weren't (and even then, there were several who were against it through the bitter end).

Whatever people say, the case is being built meticulously and solidly. If that's too slow for the people who voted the Dems into control of the House, that's bad on them. It's a sign they're not sufficiently intelligent or rational about things that actually matter. This isn't sports. It's also not "Mr Smith Goes to Washington". Time isn't going to be called with a clear winner decided. There's not going to be a climactic denunciation with justice prevailing and credits rolling after all loose ends are tied up. It's real life and real life is slow, sloppy, and rarely are all loose ends tied up in a bow. If a slow steady march rather than a quick, sharp snap is sufficient for people to lose enthusiasm in their newly elected House, our representative system of government is already DOA.
  #32843  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:03 PM
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The tide is turning, and rather quickly. I've mentioned this before I'm sure, but I'll share it again:

There are 2 websites I check every single day. First is 538's Trump approval ratings. Those have recently entered a steady decline.
Meh.

Call me when it's over 60% disapproval. I will not get excited until then.

The Trumpsters will not abandon him, even when he kills a puppy with a hammer on live TV. And I'm pretty sure that's coming soon.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 05-22-2019 at 11:04 PM. Reason: quote tag
  #32844  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:11 PM
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Meh.

Call me when it's over 60% disapproval. I will not get excited until then.

The Trumpsters will not abandon him, even when he kills a puppy with a hammer on live TV. And I'm pretty sure that's coming soon.
I hear ya, but his support is softening and I'm an incurable optimist.
  #32845  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:18 PM
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Im sorry, everyone, but literally the dumbest argument/refutation one can make are those about his base not leaving him.

Why is it dumb?

Because the set of people who comprise his base is defined by whether they still believe in Dotard. Believe in him? You're his base. Stop supporting him? You are no longer his base, so are now irrelevant to the discussion of whether he will lose support of his base, because if you *were* his base, you wouldn't have left him.

So, by definition, his base can never leave him. So why argue/base decisions on topics worried about his "base" and their levels of support?

Last edited by JohnT; 05-22-2019 at 11:19 PM.
  #32846  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:24 PM
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Ted Lieu strikes again:

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...879024129?s=19
  #32847  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:40 PM
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There are 2 websites I check every single day. First is 538's Trump approval ratings. Those have recently entered a steady decline.
What "steady decline"? We're talking about this page, right? It's been rock steady over the past year, fluctuating only between 40% and 43%. Right now it's 41.1%.
  #32848  
Old 05-22-2019, 11:45 PM
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What "steady decline"? We're talking about this page, right? It's been rock steady over the past year, fluctuating only between 40% and 43%. Right now it's 41.1%.
Yup. Hence the word, "recently."

Remains to be seen if the trend continues downward this time. I do think the Democrats' victories in the courts, along with Trump's more unhinged-than-usual antics, are having an effect. The crap he's pulling with Iran is also scaring people.
  #32849  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:15 AM
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I think people are getting more used to the idea of impeaching Chump. The "I" word is getting thrown around a lot more freely and confidently now. Just a matter of time. While I would love to see that asshat get impeached, I would not want the Democrats to waste their time. But maybe it will be like Nixon -- as someone above said, the Republicans were against impeachment until they weren't.
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  #32850  
Old 05-23-2019, 12:24 AM
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I adore Ted Lieu.
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