Straight Dope Message Board

[Annie-Xmas]

People somehow connected with food service who have homicide detective boyfriends, yet are always finding dead bodies and finding themselves allow with the murderer. It's called "culinary mystery, a sub-genre of the "cozy mystery" bit, and it drives me nuts.

The grand dame of the genre is Diane Mott Davidson. Her protagonist, Goldy Schultz, is a caterer who has someone murdered at every event she caters. Why do people keep using her?

[Richard John Marcej]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

The brave handsome hero rescues the beautiful, desirable damsel in distress. At the end of the movie she politely thanks him and they go their separate ways.

That's kind of how Roman Holiday ends.

[Velocity]

Originally Posted by Tapiotar

1) Female characters who act like emotionally volatile, mean bitches to show they are independent, empowered women. No, it doesn't. Genuinely empowered, independent women don't act like that. This trope is one of the reasons I stopped reading urban fantasy. But it also shows up in sit coms like Home Improvement.

This.

What makes it worse is that I think a certain subset of society has believed that this is what power and independence for women means. So they begin behaving manipulatively, cruelly or selfishly, thinking that they are living up to the ideal embodiment of being a confident and powerful woman.

[EinsteinsHund]

Evil villain: "Har, har, it's time to die, Mr. Bond (or insert other good-guy-action-hero)" - BAAM - (close up to head wound with brains trickling out) - End of scene.

[astorian]

"Ford Fairlane" was a TERRIBLE movie. Do NOT watch it under any circumstances.

But toward the end, there was one great scene that subverted a cliche. Robert Englund played an English hit man who was holding a gun on Andrew Dice Clay. Clay taunts him and says, "Put down the gun and fight me like a man, Mano a Mano.

Englund drops his gun. Immediately, Clay pulls out his own gun and shoots Englund, sneering, "What are you, an idiot? You NEVER put down your gun! 'Mano a mano'? What does that even MEAN?"

[Chimera]

Pretty much.

Mr. Bond drops his gun and surrenders to the villain's henchmen.
They mow him down hard.

I'd be like "Ok, whichever ones of you that still have rounds in their magazines have to clean the guns of those who don't. That just seems fair to me. Good job killing Bond though. Bonuses for everyone. Bury that. Thanks."

[terentii]

Originally Posted by Sam Spayed PI

The blond(e) one is intelligent and serious; the dark-haired one is scatterbrained, charming and fun-loving.

Wasn't it this way on Man about the House, the British forerunner of Three's Company?

[terentii]

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas

People somehow connected with food service who have homicide detective boyfriends, yet are always finding dead bodies and finding themselves allow with the murderer. It's called "culinary mystery, a sub-genre of the "cozy mystery" bit, and it drives me nuts.

The grand dame of the genre is Diane Mott Davidson. Her protagonist, Goldy Schultz, is a caterer who has someone murdered at every event she caters. Why do people keep using her?

This is like calling in Rosemary and Thyme to landscape your estate.

[alphaboi867]

An alien or group of aliens get's stranded on Earth. The military & civil authorities go to extreme lengths to keep those aliens safe & comfortable out of the sheet terror of possibly offending a civilization powerful enough to be capable of interstellar travel.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by alphaboi867

An alien or group of aliens get's stranded on Earth. The military & civil authorities go to extreme lengths to keep those aliens safe & comfortable out of the sheet terror of possibly offending a civilization powerful enough to be capable of interstellar travel.

Sort of the premise behind Men in Black...

[furryman]

Originally Posted by Tapiotar

1) Female characters who act like emotionally volatile, mean bitches to show they are independent, empowered women. No, it doesn't. Genuinely empowered, independent women don't act like that. This trope is one of the reasons I stopped reading urban fantasy. But it also shows up in sit coms like Home Improvement.

I had two female supervisors who were pretty bitchy so there's at least some RL support of this trope.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Son of a Rich

Is it possible to make a compelling mystery that isn't a murder mystery?

Would A FEW GOOD MEN count?

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by psychonaut

Anyway, that entire movie basically subverts the cliché of superintelligent aliens visiting the Earth. There aren't many stupid aliens in sci-fi—the only other exception that comes to mind is the Pakleds from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

There was the Fithp from Larry Niven's Footfall.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

Goodness! I wasn't aware that reverse trope had been done.

Also this scene in "Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs". The scientist main character is falling for the hot weather reporter, when he finds out she used to be a science nerd too. She says she used to wear glasses, and he says, "wow, I bet you were beautiful!". He has her put them on, and then puts her hair back up in a ponytail.

[Mijin]

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

Homely girl lets her hair down takes off her glasses, and is still homely.

I've mentioned this one on the Dope before, but it's such an unexpected subversion...

Female lead of Shaolin Soccer gets a makeover. The character is poor, it's the first time she's had a makeover and the actress is clearly pretty under her current dorky garb so we know what to expect post-makeover...

...which is to say, not this

[PatrickLondon]

The bit at the end of formula murder mysteries: everybody has been gathered together for the unveiling of the murderer, who has been duly escorted from the scene, and then the Nice-But-Dim character says to the detective "But there's one thing I don't understand - why did [whoever] borrow the [whatever] and pretend they were [whatever]?".

Just once, I'd like the detective to say "Search me, I haven't the faintest idea."

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by PatrickLondon

The bit at the end of formula murder mysteries: everybody has been gathered together for the unveiling of the murderer, who has been duly escorted from the scene, and then the Nice-But-Dim character says to the detective "But there's one thing I don't understand - why did [whoever] borrow the [whatever] and pretend they were [whatever]?".

Just once, I'd like the detective to say "Search me, I haven't the faintest idea."

Columbo pretty much did this once -- amiably telling the guy who's sure been a real help on this investigation that we haven't found any evidence, and maybe there is no evidence to be found; but since the victim only had one contact lens in, my theory is that her other contact lens fell out when her body was being moved from the crime scene in the trunk of a car. Or maybe when she took that blow to the head?

Anyhow, that of course prompts a desperate Robert Culp to stage a break-in, because his car is in a mechanic's garage and it's clearly time to rummage through that trunk like a man possessed. And he finds a contact lens! And that's when Columbo, and the husband of the deceased, and so on and so forth, pop out to confront him; he makes a decent try at tossing the evidence, but he's been caught dead to rights and knows it and confesses. Because, c'mon: how was he going to explain breaking in?

So he's dragged off by the cops, and grieving widower Ray Milland remarks that they're lucky she lost that contact lens -- except, it turns out, no, that's not her contact lens. Which prompts a perplexed question: if it wasn't hers, then whose was it?

The great detective replies -- "Who knows? Anyway, it doesn't make any difference."

[astorian]

For all I know this may be have been based on a very well known sci-fi story that I'm unfamiliar with.


But back in the 1980s, the rebooted Twilight Zone had an episode that LOOKED like "The Day the Earth Stood Still." An alien fleet came to Earth, and their angry leader came to the General Assembly of the UN to announce "We are very disappointed in humanity. We have watch you patiently for thousands of years. We've seen your feeble weapons, your pathetic wars. Why, the very existence of this building tells me all I need to know about humans. We are here to destroy you."

The American Ambassador asks for a 48 hour reprieve. The boss alien agrees and departs. For the next 48 hours, Earth's leaders work tirelessly to come up with a way to guarantee world peace and to share all our resources to eliminate hunger and poverty.

When the boss alien returns and they show him their plan...

SPOILER:

The boss alien laughs hysterically. "You really are an amusing race, you humans. You don't understand at all. We breed warriors to sell as mercenaries around the universe. But as this document and this building show, you humans crave peace, equality and happiness. That makes you completely useless to us. Proceed with Earth's destruction!"

[manson1972]

Originally Posted by astorian

"Ford Fairlane" was a TERRIBLE movie. Do NOT watch it under any circumstances.

Why would you say this? It's one of the great comedies of all time! I'm putting you 'on notice'!

[Toxgoddess]

Originally Posted by Sam Spayed PI

The blond(e) one is intelligent and serious; the dark-haired one is scatterbrained, charming and fun-loving.

The Nickelodean (Disney?) kids' series The Suite Life of Zach and Cody, of all things, did indeed have a brunette (Asian!) airhead character with a serious, intellectual blonde best friend.

[PatrickLondon]

There's another one or two that come to mind:

- people carrying a breakfast or tea-tray when they come across a body and they automatically (a) drop the tray with a satisfying crash and (b) scream the place down
- (a British problem) showing a British courtroom where a judge wields a gavel (and it's British directors who do this).

[PatrickLondon]

Here's another:

Someone learns that their elaborate plan/deepest desire has been frustrated. Instead of sweeping everything off every available horizontal service and collapsing into a heap of snot-filled fury, they just screw up their face and say something like "Oh well, can't win 'em all".

[Lumpy]

Did any version of Law & Order ever do this one? Suspect is almost certainly guilty but the evidence doesn't stand up in court and they walk. Later, they lose a civil lawsuit that ruins them.

[Lamia]

Originally Posted by Son of a Rich

Is it possible to make a compelling mystery that isn't a murder mystery?

I've got Law & Order: SVU reruns on in the background as I write this, so...Law & Order: SVU. Well, quite a few episodes do involve murders, but this long-running series is about detective who specialize in handling sexual assault and child abuse cases.

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

Homely girl lets her hair down takes off her glasses, and is still homely.

This was done at least as far back as 1955 -- in The Seven Year Itch there's a woman (not Marilyn Monroe!) with glasses and a bun who's still unattractive with her glasses off and hair down.

[AtomicDog]

Originally Posted by Miller

Sort of the premise behind Men in Black...

And Alien Nation.

[MaxTheVool]

Here's one I'd love to see (inspired by last night's episode of Supergirl):

-Superhreo has finally tracked down and confronted the bad guy
-Bad guy says "you can take me in... or you can save all those people", and triggers a slow-moving device putting a bunch of civilians in danger

What does the superhero do? Surely (s)he can't let all those people die!!!??!?!?

-Superhero remembers that (s)he has super powers, takes 1/16 of a second to kill or knock out or immobilize villain, and then goes off to save the civilians

[Miller]

Originally Posted by AtomicDog

And Alien Nation.

Oh, interesting one, because it kind of subverts the cliche, but kind of doesn't. The aliens in AN are a slave race, whom we rescue from their crashed ship and grant citizenship. So, that's a subversion. Except, these aliens are slaves - which means they're someone's property - someone with the technical capability of building faster than light spaceships. And we just kinda stole a ship load of their stuff and gave them rights and property and told them they aren't slaves anymore. Which means it's not a subversion, because we're still treating stranded aliens in a way that's likely to piss off a vastly more advanced race - by being too nice to the stranded aliens.

[Intergalactic Gladiator]

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool

Here's one I'd love to see (inspired by last night's episode of Supergirl):

-Superhreo has finally tracked down and confronted the bad guy
-Bad guy says "you can take me in... or you can save all those people", and triggers a slow-moving device putting a bunch of civilians in danger

What does the superhero do? Surely (s)he can't let all those people die!!!??!?!?

-Superhero remembers that (s)he has super powers, takes 1/16 of a second to kill or knock out or immobilize villain, and then goes off to save the civilians

That was such an annoying sequence. Yeah, the bad guy has to get away or else the episode would be over (if only a writer could avoid that too...) but Supergirl stared at Luthor for a few seconds before flying away to stop the crane that was going to smash all those innocent people. Supergirl should have grabbed Luthor and chucked her onto the top of a water tower or something.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Bayard

I hope this isn't a hijack, but I loved that show. Foyle was such a great character. I love how Michael Kitchen can do so much with a little change of facial expression. When he just kind of moves the corner of his mouth a little and you know he's already got it all figured out. That is just so cool. Even when Foyle was thoroughly pissed off, he was still completely in control.

Yes, the series was great! Except maybe the last season, which got too damn preachy.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Tapiotar

1) Female characters who act like emotionally volatile, mean bitches to show they are independent, empowered women. No, it doesn't. Genuinely empowered, independent women don't act like that. This trope is one of the reasons I stopped reading urban fantasy.

Yes, and if a male figure, even her father, her Boss or her lover gives advice or orders, our heroine must do the opposite, to show she's fiercely independent.

Caine’s Weather Warden series is a perfect example of this trope, and it spoiled the books for me. Joanne must always do the opposite of what she is ordered or advised to do, so often and so much that obviously all the males in that world are dim bulbs since they would start using reverse psychology pretty quickly.

Ilona Andrews is also guilty of this.