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  #51  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:45 PM
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No, I'm not saying that. You need to have someone electable if you want to win. Dems can win without my vote, but not without the support of moderates--and Bernie or Warren ain't gonna pull moderate votes.
The moderate candidate sure won big in 2016, right? America would never elect a burn-the-system-down motherfucker for president.
  #52  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:47 PM
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7 There simply are not enough radical lefties out there to win a national election.
So those of us who support reasonable licensing and restrictions on gun ownership (e.g., so it is less likely a disaffected 17 y.o. can go shoot up a school) are "radical lefties?" This is the moving Overton window in action.
  #53  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:49 PM
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So those of us who support reasonable licensing and restrictions on gun ownership (e.g., so it is less likely a disaffected 17 y.o. can go shoot up a school) are "radical lefties?" This is the moving Overton window in action.
Cite to where I said that?
  #54  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:49 PM
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No, I'm not saying that. You need to have someone electable if you want to win. Dems can win without my vote, but not without the support of moderates--and Bernie or Warren ain't gonna pull moderate votes.
Not without the support of the left either. And policies that are supported by the majority of the country *are* moderate. Absolute gun rights is the extreme position. Look at the polls I shared. You are not in the moderate position on this. Expecting both candidates for president to be in your extreme position is not going to happen. Vote your conscience, but don't blame anyone else for your choice. That's all I'm asking.

If a person can look at Trump and almost literally anyone else, and still choose Trump, then that is an awful person. We have the last 3 years now, ignorance can't be an excuse this time. We all know exactly what he is.
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Last edited by Airbeck; 11-20-2019 at 03:51 PM.
  #55  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:50 PM
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The moderate candidate sure won big in 2016, right? America would never elect a burn-the-system-down motherfucker for president.
You really think Bernie or Warren is going to come closer than Hillary did? If you do, could I interest you in this fine bridge I have for sale? (By quit claim deed, of course).
  #56  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:55 PM
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You really think Bernie or Warren is going to come closer than Hillary did? If you do, could I interest you in this fine bridge I have for sale? (By quit claim deed, of course).
So you've already said that your state will go Trump no matter what so your vote won't make a difference.

Why should the Democratic party be beholden to nominating someone that you personally approve of then?

You seem to be simultaneously arguing that voters like you are the key to victory while admitting that your vote won't actually matter.
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  #57  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:00 PM
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You really think Bernie or Warren is going to come closer than Hillary did? If you do, could I interest you in this fine bridge I have for sale? (By quit claim deed, of course).
I don't bet, but you can enter your predictions at the betting market of your choice. The idea that Americans are keen for a moderate of the particular stripe you support is universal, since everyone defines themselves as a moderate. But I don't think our electorate is especially concerned with electing a middle-of-the-road person, no.
  #58  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:03 PM
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Thank you Oakminster for a posting a breath of fresh air and brutal honesty.

It takes balls to state that you would rather 1000's of innocent people die every year so that you don't have to register your gun. Bravo!
Not many people are honest enough to say that they would prefer the country slide into ruin than have to fill out a piece of paper. Strong work!
I also appreciate your dedication to the idea that absolutely no restrictions on firearms is the most important issue in the country. Makes me proud.

Thank you for your service.
  #59  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:03 PM
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You seem to be simultaneously arguing that voters like you are the key to victory while admitting that your vote won't actually matter.
Voters in states that are in play do matter. Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, possibly even Georgia and (gasp) Texas could, theoretically go Dem in 2020. I don't think they will for Bernie or Warren.
  #60  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:07 PM
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Thank you Oakminster for a posting a breath of fresh air and brutal honesty.

It takes balls to state that you would rather 1000's of innocent people die every year so that you don't have to register your gun. Bravo!
Not many people are honest enough to say that they would prefer the country slide into ruin than have to fill out a piece of paper. Strong work!
Cite to where I said that?
  #61  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:09 PM
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I'm pretty dumb that I need this explained to me, I guess...

But why the vehement opposition to gun registration? Guns aren't a big part of my life and I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but having to register your weapon just doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.

I'm sincerely asking because I want to understand, not trying to make a point.
Oakminster can certainly answer for himself, but in the case of many gun owners, registration is viewed as a prelude to confiscation.
  #62  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:09 PM
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Voters in states that are in play do matter. Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, possibly even Georgia and (gasp) Texas could, theoretically go Dem in 2020. I don't think they will for Bernie or Warren.
I disagree. I think there's a significant number of voters who think that Clinton, Biden, et al don't care about them and don't understand their issues, whereas someone like Sanders does. Populism can be used for evil, but it can also be a powerful force to get people involved in the system.

We'll see. But this is some pretty serious thread drift.
  #63  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:10 PM
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The US has the highest firearm deaths and the least restrictive laws of any large developed country.
Under Trump the country is deteriorating.

Cited.
  #64  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:11 PM
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Not sure what you mean by "lose health care". I'm not a fan of the "medicare for all" plans I've seen mentioned. We're already in a war, and have been for years. And all of my guns were lost in a tragic boating accident in January, 2009.
And a good thing, because Obama would have taken them like he took mine!


Actually, I think it might be a good evening for the gun range...
  #65  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:11 PM
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Oakminster can certainly answer for himself, but in the case of many gun owners, registration is viewed as a prelude to confiscation.
Are you concerned that you car will be confiscated?
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  #66  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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Oakminster can certainly answer for himself, but in the case of many gun owners, registration is viewed as a prelude to confiscation.
Registration is "viewed" as a prelude to confiscation. So a belief that it may happen.
Meanwhile, every day, Every Single Day, 310 people are shot.
Just so you can have as many guns as you like. Makes sense.
  #67  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:21 PM
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Are you concerned that you car will be confiscated?
No. There is not a significant, well-funded movement to confiscate cars. For guns, there is. We haven't had someone run for president on the platform "Hell yes, we're going to take your SUVs", but the same is not true of firearms.
  #68  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:24 PM
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No. There is not a significant, well-funded movement to confiscate cars. For guns, there is. We haven't had someone run for president on the platform "Hell yes, we're going to take your SUVs", but the same is not true of firearms.
Sure there is. Regulating safety systems, fuel economy, and yes even OMG registration, are all mandated by the government. You know why?
To limit the amount of carnage.
But thanks for the sidetrack. You're the best.

ETA It wasn't you that sidetracked. Sorry.

Last edited by steatopygia; 11-20-2019 at 04:26 PM.
  #69  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:27 PM
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No. There is not a significant, well-funded movement to confiscate cars. For guns, there is. We haven't had someone run for president on the platform "Hell yes, we're going to take your SUVs", but the same is not true of firearms.
You mean the candidate that never got over a couple percentage points and is long since gone? That guy? That's who you are afraid of?

Is paranoia a requirement for buying a gun?
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  #70  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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You mean the candidate that never got over a couple percentage points and is long since gone? That guy? That's who you are afraid of?

Is paranoia a requirement for buying a gun?
Bolding mine.

Well yeah. For many one issue voters it is the main requirement.
  #71  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:38 PM
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My criteria include, but are not limited to:

1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
2) No support for any form of gun ban, whether limited to "assault weapons" or not.
3) No support for any form of gun registration or licensing .
4) Support for legalization of marijuana is a plus, but I can live without it.
Apologies if you already answered this, but why those, and only those, criteria? Why do things like equality for all, helping the less fortunate, honesty in leaders, not supporting white nationalists, or putting the good of the country before your personal finances, not matter nearly as much as your guns?

It seems to me that, to best way to sway the tiny, moderate branch of the Republican party that you seemingly self-identify as, would be to emphasize priorities. Like that maybe having a rational decisionmaker is better than having a unthinking narcissist. Or that maybe making sure that all Americans have opportunities to move up in income brackets is more important than 1,000 people getting even more insanely rich. A discussion of the priorities seems to be the only way to effectuate any change.

Last edited by Hamlet; 11-20-2019 at 04:40 PM.
  #72  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:42 PM
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You mean the candidate that never got over a couple percentage points and is long since gone? That guy? That's who you are afraid of? ...
Noting his presidential candidacy and statements as an indication of the movement to confiscate guns does not mean I'm "afraid" of him. It just means that I'm aware that people like him exist, and they'd like to take my guns away. I don't want them to succeed in that, and opposing registration requirements is one step in frustrating their aims.
  #73  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:48 PM
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Obama should have gotten an award from the NRA and the gun makers and dealers for all he did to increase sales. Guns and ammo were flying off the shelves after he took office. Of course he did not change any major gun laws from what I know.
  #74  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:49 PM
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Pro tip: he was never considering voting for a dem.
  #75  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:49 PM
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Someone thinks they are awfully important.

2nd amendment absolutists are not the majority, why do you think you deserve to be treated as such?

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/10/74979...t-gun-violence

More importantly why should both candidates in the election be on your side of this issue when the American public as a whole is not? Why should your views hold supreme? Just because that's what you want?
2nd Ad absolutists are a very small minority. But America is split pretty evenly on the issue of gun control. Most Americans are in favor of some mild controls, and if there is a school shooting more Americans are in favor of stronger laws. Few Americans want to ban a large class of guns, like handguns.

It does seem like thise time all of the front running Dems are in favor of stronger gun controls than most Americans.

Oddly trump is no friend to gun owners, either.
  #76  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:52 PM
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The US has the highest firearm deaths and the least restrictive laws of any large developed country.

Note the cherry picking there of "large developed country". Somehow, Mexico isnt "developed" or "large" which would be a surprise to it's inhabitants.

The Murder rate continues to decline.
  #77  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:53 PM
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It does seem like thise time all of the front running Dems are in favor of stronger gun controls than most Americans.
Not saying you're wrong, but your claim should be cited. What specific controls are Warren, Biden, or Sanders in favor of, that are favored by fewer than 50% of Americans?
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:54 PM
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Registration is "viewed" as a prelude to confiscation. So a belief that it may happen.
Meanwhile, every day, Every Single Day, 310 people are shot.
.....
There are about 10-11K gun homicides in the uSA a year. Not 113,150. You are off by a order of magnitude.
  #79  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:08 PM
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There are about 10-11K gun homicides in the uSA a year. Not 113,150. You are off by a order of magnitude.
He didn't say 310 people are killed with guns every day. He said 310 people are shot every day.

Last edited by Miller; 11-20-2019 at 05:08 PM.
  #80  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:10 PM
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I want to vote democrat but I insist my candidate be pro-life and anti-gay marriage!! Why is there no candidate for ME?! Waaaaah!

Come on, man. No one is gonna be your perfect match. Find the one that won’t totally wreck the country.
  #81  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:21 PM
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He didn't say 310 people are killed with guns every day. He said 310 people are shot every day.
Yeah, I found that number- it's on the Brady site. They have other numbers wrong also.

I'd like to see a reliable cite for it.
  #82  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:26 PM
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He didn't say 310 people are killed with guns every day. He said 310 people are shot every day.
There are also nearly 40,000 people killed with guns every year. His change from "shot with guns" to "gun homicides" is pretty sneaky.

But even if you look at straight-up murders, discounting accidental shootings, police-related shootings, and so on, it's 14K per year.

Given that another 67,000 people are injured by firearms each year, that "310 shot per day" number looks pretty accurate.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 11-20-2019 at 05:26 PM.
  #83  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:31 PM
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I want to vote democrat but I insist my candidate be pro-life and anti-gay marriage!! Why is there no candidate for ME?! Waaaaah!

Come on, man. No one is gonna be your perfect match. Find the one that won’t totally wreck the country.
There are tens of millions single-issue voters. That is the way democracy works.

I never thought I would become one but I have this cycle - I will vote against anyone who vows to take our health insurance away and replace it with some shitty type of Medicaid.
  #84  
Old 11-20-2019, 05:59 PM
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Pro tip: he was never considering voting for a dem.
Pro tip: Read the fucking thread, especially post #27.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:01 PM
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Oh I read it.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:14 PM
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I want to apologize to Oakminster. I think I appeared to be attacking him as much as his post. I sincerely apologize.

Let me restate.
The OP identifies as a one issue voter. That issue is absolutely no registration or increased gun regulation. Refreshingly it didn't mention any "sacred rights" enshrined in the constitution or the need for constant self-defense. It clearly stated I want as many and any kind of guns that I can afford. Good. Clearly stated. I appreciate that.
The OP also states that he will not vote anyone who does not absolutely support that issue. Once again, good, clearly stated.

My problem with that is how absolutely selfish that is.
No regulations on you means that many other totally innocent people will be shot.
No regulations on you means that many families will mourn their sons and daughters, live without their husbands and fathers.
No regulations on you means that others will live with the knowledge that their 3 year old killed their 5 year old.
Just so that you can shoot as much as you want.

Selfish. Selfish and complicit in so many of the things that have made America so screwed up these days.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:22 PM
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My problem with that is how absolutely selfish that is.
No regulations on you means that many other totally innocent people will be shot.
No regulations on you means that many families will mourn their sons and daughters, live without their husbands and fathers.
No regulations on you means that others will live with the knowledge that their 3 year old killed their 5 year old.
Just so that you can shoot as much as you want.

Selfish. Selfish and complicit in so many of the things that have made America so screwed up these days.
You're assuming that a total gun ban can pass and all 300 million guns confiscated.

That is a ridiculous assumption.

The reasonable position from Obama is that a background check can pass along with a limit on the size of mabazines/clips. I would be happy with that but the number of lives saved would be relatively small.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:25 PM
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Pro tip: Read the fucking thread, especially post #27.
Are you ever going to explain what your other moderate positions are, or do you just care about guns?
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:31 PM
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There are tens of millions single-issue voters. That is the way democracy works.

I never thought I would become one but I have this cycle - I will vote against anyone who vows to take our health insurance away and replace it with some shitty type of Medicaid.
Which, of course, nobody is proposing. There might be someone telling you that certain candidates are proposing that, but they are lying to you.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:31 PM
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I'm assuming no such thing. I'm advocating for trying to decrease the insane amount of firepower floating around.

This is no idle exercise for me. I'm an ER nurse. I deal with the aftereffects of guns all the time. I also live in a rural area with near 100% gun ownership. I own guns.


ETA in response to Linden Arden

Last edited by steatopygia; 11-20-2019 at 06:33 PM.
  #91  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:41 PM
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There are also nearly 40,000 people killed with guns every year. His change from "shot with guns" to "gun homicides" is pretty sneaky.

But even if you look at straight-up murders, discounting accidental shootings, police-related shootings, and so on, it's 14K per year.

Given that another 67,000 people are injured by firearms each year, that "310 shot per day" number looks pretty accurate.
Yeah, of that nearly 40000, 60% are suicides. From your cite:Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338).

But that '310" figure is intentionally scary, since what people are really worried about is being killed by a murderer. Not a piece of bird shot during duck season picked out in Urgent care.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:43 PM
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I want to apologize to Oakminster. I think I appeared to be attacking him as much as his post. I sincerely apologize.

Let me restate.
The OP identifies as a one issue voter. That issue is absolutely no registration or increased gun regulation. Refreshingly it didn't mention any "sacred rights" enshrined in the constitution or the need for constant self-defense. It clearly stated I want as many and any kind of guns that I can afford. Good. Clearly stated. I appreciate that.
The OP also states that he will not vote anyone who does not absolutely support that issue. Once again, good, clearly stated.

.....
Selfish. Selfish and complicit in so many of the things that have made America so screwed up these days.
Ok, but all of those things are already law in CA, but CA still has a higher murder rate. In fact CA has just about the strongest gun control laws in the uSA. They do not seem to have done much good.

So you can have ALL of those regulations yet all those bad things still happen.
  #93  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:44 PM
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There are about 10-11K gun homicides in the uSA a year. Not 113,150. You are off by a order of magnitude.
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Yeah, of that nearly 40000, 60% are suicides. From your cite:Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338).

But that '310" figure is intentionally scary, since what people are really worried about is being killed by a murderer. Not a piece of bird shot during duck season picked out in Urgent care.
I hoped that you'd admit your error. Ah well. I'm glad we purchased the mobile goalposts.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 11-20-2019 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:48 PM
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Yeah, of that nearly 40000, 60% are suicides. From your cite:Though they tend to get less attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2017, six-in-ten gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (23,854), while 37% were murders (14,542), according to the CDC. The remainder were unintentional (486), involved law enforcement (553) or had undetermined circumstances (338).

But that '310" figure is intentionally scary, since what people are really worried about is being killed by a murderer. Not a piece of bird shot during duck season picked out in Urgent care.
I'm sorry that you find 310 people being injured daily by firearms scary.
I'm also sorry that you are OK with suicides and minor injuries.
  #95  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:51 PM
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Which, of course, nobody is proposing. There might be someone telling you that certain candidates are proposing that, but they are lying to you.
Warren and Sanders want to eliminate all private primary health insurance. They need our premium payments to pay for others insurance.


Don't tell me I can still get insurance for cosmetic surgery like Kamala Harris said (a reason she has stunk up the polls since saying that).
  #96  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:51 PM
DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steatopygia View Post
I'm sorry that you find 310 people being injured daily by firearms scary.
I'm also sorry that you are OK with suicides and minor injuries.
If someone with terminal cancer, living in daily, crippling, horrific pain, wants to end their life, i am fine with it. You'd make them suffer?
  #97  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:53 PM
aruvqan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
My criteria include, but are not limited to:

1) Generally considered moderate on most issues.
2) No support for any form of gun ban, whether limited to "assault weapons" or not.
3) No support for any form of gun registration or licensing .
4) Support for legalization of marijuana is a plus, but I can live without it.

Unfortunately, I think criteria 2 & 3 eliminate the entire field, or at least the ones that have a real chance to be the nominee.
1 and 4 are my points, I already believe in a waiting period and police check for gun purchase. No skin off my back, been licensed and held security clearances since I was 18, and I am a firm believer in safety training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
I would caution you not to let perfect be the enemy of the good.
Exactly. Guns are not overly important of an issue for me to not vote for someone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
"All the choices are shit"

Maybe the problem is your expectations. There doesn't seem to be much of a political push from any direction for a candidate that would fit all of your expectations. This is politics. There will never exist a perfect candidate just like there will never exist a perfect person. At some point though, we have to make a choice, and voting 3rd party in many cases in 2016 *was* a vote for Trump.
Unfortunately the third party voters lost the Democrats the presidency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuauhtemoc View Post
I'm pretty dumb that I need this explained to me, I guess...

But why the vehement opposition to gun registration? Guns aren't a big part of my life and I don't pretend to understand all the issues, but having to register your weapon just doesn't seem like a huge burden to me.

I'm sincerely asking because I want to understand, not trying to make a point.
Honestly, safety training, a waiting period and a police check is no big deal, but a registry is seen as an easy way for a totalitarian government to go door to door with a list and demand the guns on the list to be turned over.

[58 year old female, registered Republican since I was 18, gun owner and believer that the 2nd Amendment gives me the right to have weapons for hunting [I favor my Dad's issue M1, a 12 ga shotgun, and my daily carry varies between 2 handguns - I am trained in their use from being an armed response guard, and I had carried for decades because I had a stalker. I do not believe I need a machine gun or weapon suitable for war though I am quite effective with the M1.]
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  #98  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:57 PM
cutman74 is offline
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Just for the record, One of the first gun laws "gun grabber" Obama signed was one allowing citizens to carry loaded weapons in national parks. Business Insider, Dec 21, 2012. Don't know how to link, but it was easy to find. Has other gun rights expanding bills signed into law as well. Didn't read the whole article. Just wanted to make sure my memory was correct.
  #99  
Old 11-20-2019, 07:00 PM
Linden Arden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutman74 View Post
Just for the record, One of the first gun laws "gun grabber" Obama signed was one allowing citizens to carry loaded weapons in national parks. Business Insider, Dec 21, 2012. Don't know how to link, but it was easy to find. Has other gun rights expanding bills signed into law as well. Didn't read the whole article. Just wanted to make sure my memory was correct.
You are correct. That "gun-grabbing" Obama also signed a bill allowing firearms as Amtrak cargo.

Another reason he is my favorite President of my lifetime (since JFK).

Last edited by Linden Arden; 11-20-2019 at 07:01 PM.
  #100  
Old 11-20-2019, 07:00 PM
steatopygia's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
If someone with terminal cancer, living in daily, crippling, horrific pain, wants to end their life, i am fine with it. You'd make them suffer?
Sure, that's what the OP was talking about.
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