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Old 11-30-2019, 08:25 PM
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The US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures


The US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures

It seems pretty well thought out. I do agree with a lot of this.

Thoughts??
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Old 11-30-2019, 08:38 PM
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Like all clever attempts to categorize people it contains some general truths but takes them too far and becomes another form of astrology-like pseudoscience.
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Old 11-30-2019, 09:41 PM
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I don't deny there's a certain amount of "truthiness" to it, but it's grossly oversimplified. Depending on what point your want to make you can divide any group of people into as few as two groups (me/not me) or as many as you want.

Does geographic location matter more or less than education and income? Is a third-generation Asian American more comfortable with a first-generation Asian immigrant, or a third-generation white American? Does a liberal, mainline Christian have more in common with a liberal atheist, or a conservative Evangelical? It all depends on which way you want to slice the pie.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:29 PM
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It all depends on which way you want to slice the pie.
Exactly. An interesting article. I don't agree with it all.

And to answer the post just before this, well, I don't agree with it all.

I ALSO don't agree with the sickeningly virulent enraged demands made by an awful lot of people in the U.S.A. that this is a Monolithic Christian Nation No Matter What.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:44 PM
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Woodward's 2011 book is an outright steal updating of the classic 1981 The Nine Nations of North America by Joel Garreau. The boundaries are slightly different but they're basically so obvious that you can't do much to play around with them.

That Woodard's book came out 30 years later and couldn't show deep structural changes says a lot. I do wonder, though, whether that will be true in 2041.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:05 AM
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Woodward's 2011 book is an outright steal updating of the classic 1981 The Nine Nations of North America by Joel Garreau. The boundaries are slightly different but they're basically so obvious that you can't do much to play around with them.
And I do question some of the differences. Especially the lumping of the Louisiana coast with Quebec. Do those areas really have more in common with each other than with their immediate neighbors? They obviously did a couple centuries ago, but I think they've gone their separate ways since.

One change that's I think has happened since the earlier book, but is not in the update: the Denver area seems to be more in tune with the west coast than with its surrounding area, so it probably should be considered an outlying island of the Left Coast.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:21 AM
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I've seen zillions of such divvy-up-the-US maps, dissecting the union by foods, soft and hard drinks, clothes, sports, psychology, entertainments, education, vehicles, and more than I recall at the moment. From CityLab/Maps recently comes The Three Personalities of America, Mapped defining regional clusters called 1) Friendly & Conventional, 2) Relaxed & Creative, and 3) Temperamental & Uninhibited, and showing where those personality traits are weak or strong. I guess we're all free to plot our own diced'n'sliced'n'spliced maps. Who knows, maybe we can start secessionist movements.
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Old 12-01-2019, 10:04 PM
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Woodward's 2011 book is an outright steal updating of the classic 1981 The Nine Nations of North America by Joel Garreau. The boundaries are slightly different but they're basically so obvious that you can't do much to play around with them.

That Woodard's book came out 30 years later and couldn't show deep structural changes says a lot. I do wonder, though, whether that will be true in 2041.
And as presented in the linked article (haven't read the actual book didn't even know it existed) the original Nine Nations (which I do have in my small library, it's fun to read from time to time) is a much better more well thought out, possibly even researched? book.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:42 PM
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I don't deny there's a certain amount of "truthiness" to it, but it's grossly oversimplified. Depending on what point your want to make you can divide any group of people into as few as two groups (me/not me) or as many as you want.

Does geographic location matter more or less than education and income? Is a third-generation Asian American more comfortable with a first-generation Asian immigrant, or a third-generation white American? Does a liberal, mainline Christian have more in common with a liberal atheist, or a conservative Evangelical? It all depends on which way you want to slice the pie.
In my town (Melbourne), the traditional question was "What school did you go to?". Because the answer to that enable us to slot you into your culture and tribe. You can slot people into bigger or smaller groups: it's a natural human characteristic. But for most of us, two groups is enough, and much less effort.

My tribe. And everybody else.

When my brother was back living in the 'states for a couple of years, he noticed that he was a Northerner. People from the South were different, and he noticed that visiting the South made him feel foreign and alien. The rest of the differences? Well, everybody is different.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:34 PM
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When my brother was back living in the 'states for a couple of years, he noticed that he was a Northerner. People from the South were different, and he noticed that visiting the South made him feel foreign and alien. The rest of the differences? Well, everybody is different.
Is this an Australian thing? I used to have a co-worker who once claimed there were only 2 US accents - Northern and Southern. It was quite odd, since there are often more than 2 distinct accents in a given state.

At any rate, yes, there are regional differences. That's hardly a US thing though. Try China, where it was (is?) common for even the spoken language to be almost mutually unintelligible from town to town. Or Germany. Or Italy. Or France. Or Switzerland.

As many differences as there may be regionally, two Americans taken at random are more likely to share many more cultural aspects with each other than somebody from another country, even places like Canada or the UK.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:32 AM
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What's the DC/Northern Virginia area?
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:38 AM
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What's the DC/Northern Virginia area?
And Hawaii?
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:37 PM
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What's the DC/Northern Virginia area?
They put DC in Tidewater. Maryland suburbs split between Tidewater and Midlands. Northern Virginia suburbs split between Tidewater and Appalachia.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:28 AM
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In my town (Melbourne), the traditional question was "What school did you go to?". Because the answer to that enable us to slot you into your culture and tribe.
Indeed and with the supplementary “who do you barrack for” even more exquisitely precise.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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In my town (Melbourne), the traditional question was "What school did you go to?". Because the answer to that enable us to slot you into your culture and tribe. You can slot people into bigger or smaller groups: it's a natural human characteristic.
That's a common question in Honolulu and for the same reason. Top of the heap is Punahou School, which counts Barack Obama among its alumni.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:21 PM
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Methinks as demonstrable bunkum as any garden variety horoscope, but my question to the OP is why do you find the idea attractive?
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:26 AM
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Methinks as demonstrable bunkum as any garden variety horoscope, but my question to the OP is why do you find the idea attractive?
Personally I enjoy these thought experiments because I am interested in ideas of how to improve the quality of political representation in America. Maybe it would be good to organize states with similar cultural values, or maybe it would be good to organize around conflict-prone resources like rivers, or maybe the best we can do is redraw states more equally proportioned to their populations. Anything would be better than what we've done, which was driven by the forces of land grabs and slavery preservation.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:29 AM
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I've seen this, and rather resented the notion that proximity to Mexico is the primary distinguishing characteristic of Southern California. But hey, you know, that's Business Insider, the same people who claimed that UCLA is the most dangerous college campus in the entire country.

Politically, there's not much reason to separate the southern coastal counties from the Left Coast. Even the OC and San Diego County went for Clinton in 2016.
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:55 AM
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And as usual, we need a movement called Black Lives Matter for even stuff like this.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:08 AM
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This seems pretty arbitrary. "Tidewater" for Virginia and the Carolinas is more descriptive of a particular accent than anything distinguishing them, from say, Georgia. The upper midwest isn't "Yankeedom" and has little in common with proper Yankees (New England, maybe some large cities in Indiana, Ohio, Illinois). Also, minor artistic quibble, Miami is more than "part of Spanish Caribbean", it is in fact the capital of South America.

Also, Americans reading this map should be aware that, owing to historical quirks of international law, British Columbia is not a US state, Quebec belongs to neither the US nor Old France, and Mexico is in fact an independent country.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:10 AM
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Fun map of the US redrawn as 50 states with equal population
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:46 AM
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On a tablet and too dumb to link but I saw a configuration of 13 equally populated states that actually made pretty good sense (the point of the exercise was to "go back" to the nation's original number of states). We'd have to revise our thinking about the Senate - 26 senators probably isn't enough - and have to incorporate a plan for adjusting borders when populations become badly imbalanced but it was balanced geographically, politically and demographically.

Of course that doesn't take into account the feelings of those who are emotionally loyal to their current home states, feelings I don't share and in fact are always surprised to encounter. But they must be acknowledged as genuine.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:30 PM
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Heh, I was amused that they gave the name "Firelands" to Northern Ohio. Firelands is a local name of historical meaning known only to people in central Northern Ohio.

During the Revolutionary War, the British burnt down several Connecticut towns. The western end of the Connecticut Western Reserve was set aside to be given to Nutmeggers who'd had their homes arsoned, thus "Firelands." Several town names in that region are named after the torched places in Connecticut. The land wasn't opened for settlement until many years had passed and there were ultimately a few arson survivors who eventually came out for the land offered them.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:36 PM
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while I'm happy "Detroit" doesn't share anything with present-day Ohio, I'll be damned if I ever stand by while the UP goes to those Wisconsin bastards.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:24 AM
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What a weird map. The narrow strip along the west coast is really odd.

It's the larger urban areas on the western part of the country that differ from the more rural areas. So it should be a set of islands (and include Las Vegas, etc.) than a strip of land.

And the Deep South/Greater Appalachia thing is ridiculous. It slices thru the Atlanta metro region. And in that area the divides are: Atlanta proper, the ring suburbs and the ex-urbs. It's not a line, it's a series of rings. And most of the large cities in the region are like this.

This was done totally capriciously.
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Old 12-01-2019, 09:45 AM
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n/m

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Old 12-01-2019, 09:30 AM
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This seems pretty arbitrary. "Tidewater" for Virginia and the Carolinas is more descriptive of a particular accent than anything distinguishing them, from say, Georgia.
I do think there is a distinctive Tidewater culture, but I don't see it here in Richmond. In Williamsburg and Gloucester County, yes. But not in the metro Richmond area. However, I wouldn't put us in Greater Appalachia either. Nor the Deep South. So Tidewater is the best one of the available options, IMHO.

I'm from Georgia. My accents marks me as "not from around here" mainly because I do the stretching of vowels thing ("hill" is pronounced as "heeell"). You hear folks in Southwest Virginia doing this, but not elsewhere in the state. Also, folks around here call their mothers "Mumma" and their fathers "Diddy". Folk in Georgia say "Momma" and "Daddy". When I hear someone say "Diddy", I'm reminded that I'm a stranger in a strange land.

So I agree that Virginia is culturally different from Georgia, at least. It's not just speech patterns, but also food. Their BBQ is mustardy and yellow. And they use cole slaw as a sandwich fixing. No. Just no.

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Old 12-01-2019, 06:05 PM
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Also, Americans reading this map should be aware that, owing to historical quirks of international law, British Columbia is not a US state, Quebec belongs to neither the US nor Old France, and Mexico is in fact an independent country.
You also seem to be misunderstanding the label “the 11 nations of North America.” This is not a political map of the sovereign territory of the United States.
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Old 12-01-2019, 07:58 PM
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You also seem to be misunderstanding the label “the 11 nations of North America.” This is not a political map of the sovereign territory of the United States.
Well, the OP has entitled this thread “The US really has 11 separate ‘nations’ and included all of Canada and parts of Mexico in it.
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Old 12-01-2019, 08:05 PM
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Well, the OP has entitled this thread “The US really has 11 separate ‘nations’ and included all of Canada and parts of Mexico in it.
Because the OP is only interested in the parts of the map in the United States, and all 11 of the nations are represented in it.

From this you think the OP is claiming parts of Canada and Mexico are actually part of the United States? You’re smarter than that.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:39 PM
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You also seem to be misunderstanding the label “the 11 nations of North America.” This is not a political map of the sovereign territory of the United States.
The heading reads "This map shows how the US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures".

Last I heard, the US did not encompass all of North America.
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Old 12-02-2019, 02:52 PM
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The heading reads "This map shows how the US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures".

Last I heard, the US did not encompass all of North America.
Both of these statements are true:

- This map depicts the 11 nations of North America (the United States, Mexico, and Canada)

- This map depicts the 11 nations of the United States (which constitutes a portion of North America)

Neither of these statements, taken together or separately, requires one to believe that Canada and Mexico have surrendered their sovereignty to the United States or that the United States encompasses all of North America.
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Old 12-02-2019, 12:53 PM
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Also, minor artistic quibble, Miami is more than "part of Spanish Caribbean", it is in fact the capital of South America.
What?
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:51 PM
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And as usual, we need a movement called Black Lives Matter for even stuff like this.
Yes--this alone shows that it indeed was NOT well though out.
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Old 12-01-2019, 01:19 PM
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By whom (among Europeans) and how various regions of the US or 'North America' were settled does have some relevance. For example how the NY area, the former New Netherlands, is still influenced by the Dutch is an interesting thing, part of 'NY-ness' is really New Netherlands-ness. But it's pretty subtle influence at this point...which is why plenty of people who live here, or are even from here, don't realize that's part of what's different about NY. Calling it 'an entirely different culture' across all people who live in this area now v all people who live elsewhere in the US now would be a gigantic exaggeration. Likewise it would be a gross oversimplification to attribute the unique aspects of NY-area culture just to Dutch roots, and ignore all the distinct influences from later groups over-represented in this area compared to the rest of the US (Jews are as heavily represented nowhere else in the US, and Irish and Italians as heavily represented only a limited number of other places, plus now the ongoing evolution in NY culture from the diverse mix of recent immigrants accounting for nearly 40% foreign born in the City).
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:38 PM
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And as usual, we need a movement called Black Lives Matter for even stuff like this.
Yes--this alone shows that it indeed was NOT well though out.
What are you guys talking about?
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:34 PM
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What are you guys talking about?
The fact that of the 11 nations of North America, none of them is based on African-Americans’ culture?
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Old 12-02-2019, 11:21 AM
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The fact that of the 11 nations of North America, none of them is based on African-Americans’ culture?
The region of the Dakota's, Wyoming, eastern Montana etc. would also be the 'nation of the Horse Culture natives' where that culture dominated down to the present...if the European settlers had not displaced and dominated those people. I don't think it's 'unfair exclusion' to now classify no whole region of the US as dominated by native culture. No whole region is, because the European settlers supplanted that culture.

Somewhat likewise for African Americans. Segregation, legal and practical, meant and to an arguable degree still means that African American culture (however it might be defined) dominates in enclaves. But not in any whole region. The whole region with highest % African American population is the Deep South, or more concentrated still in the so called Black Belt region around the Mississippi (originally because of the soil, though the term can have a double meaning). But the dominant culture there was that of the whites, who remained dominant until recently (if one even accepts that things have changed a lot recently). Saying that the way things get done in the state of MS differently than MI or MT is handed down from an African American cultural history in MS is clearly inaccurate IMO.

I think you can legitimately criticize the *regional* 'cultural nation' concept of that article as being a very incomplete description of cultural geography, because it ignores enclaves, and the sum of the effect of a bunch of enclaves, as in for example the noticeable effect of African American cultural contributions on general US culture, which isn't new. However not naming a large geographic 'African American cultural nation' isn't unfair exclusion. There is no such whole region, due to past unfair exclusion.

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Old 12-01-2019, 12:11 PM
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To the extent that America can be described as having more than one culture—whichbin general an overstatement, we share more culture than not—they aren’t regional as these kinds of exercises always represent.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:25 PM
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The US really has 11 separate 'nations' with entirely different cultures

It seems pretty well thought out. I do agree with a lot of this.

Thoughts??
You mean aside from the map implying that the US has annexed Canada and Mexico?
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:40 PM
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The book is just a gimmick, and (as Exapno Mapcase points out), a derivative rip-off. Woodward is conveniently ignoring two obvious things which make this an idle conceit: Americans move a lot, and about 80 years ago they invented this thing called "television."
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:36 PM
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The book is just a gimmick, and (as Exapno Mapcase points out), a derivative rip-off. Woodward is conveniently ignoring two obvious things which make this an idle conceit: Americans move a lot, and about 80 years ago they invented this thing called "television."
This. With few exceptions, my sense of how close I feel to the culture of a particular place can be determined by where it is in the blending of rural, small town, suburbs, city, and metropolises (as a place can have characteristics of multiple types of these) and how much the inhabitants speak English (no pun intended.) As much as the boonies and the Big City are exciting, I feel closest to non-suburban small cities, but it doesn't usually matter in the English-speaking world those large towns are (of the places I've visited, I'd make an exception for the Deep South.)

Because I grew up in a college town in Upstate New York, I'd probably feel more at home in a college town in Virginia than I do here in Florida in endless suburbia. I'd also probably feel more at home in a college town in Virginia than I would in the Albany area which also has endless suburbs.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:48 PM
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This. With few exceptions, my sense of how close I feel to the culture of a particular place can be determined by where it is in the blending of rural, small town, suburbs, city, and metropolises (as a place can have characteristics of multiple types of these) and how much the inhabitants speak English (no pun intended.) As much as the boonies and the Big City are exciting, I feel closest to non-suburban small cities, but it doesn't usually matter in the English-speaking world those large towns are (of the places I've visited, I'd make an exception for the Deep South.)

Because I grew up in a college town in Upstate New York, I'd probably feel more at home in a college town in Virginia than I do here in Florida in endless suburbia. I'd also probably feel more at home in a college town in Virginia than I would in the Albany area which also has endless suburbs.
Yeah, I lived my life in big city burbs, DC, Philly, New York, Boston, and for a while LA. That's my state.
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Old 12-01-2019, 12:50 PM
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You mean aside from the map implying that the US has annexed Canada and Mexico?
The map does not imply that in the least.

It’s not a political map. It’s a map of “North American Nations”. It’s depicting some portions of the United States as being part of the same cultural group as some parts of Mexico and Canada. It’s not showing Mexico and Canada as having lost their state sovereignty.

The map is clearly labeled “The 11 nations of North America.” Not “11 regions of the United States.”

Is it the use of the word “nation” to mean a group of people sharing a common culture that is confusing you?
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Last edited by Acsenray; 12-01-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 12-01-2019, 02:11 PM
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Regions would properly be divided if we went by which Pokémon Gym operates in the area.
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:26 PM
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At my very first glance, I'd assume a person in rural midstate Illinois has more in common with a person from rural Wisconsin than a person from Chicago does, yet Chicago and all of WI are part of "Yankeedom" and the guy in Lacon, IL is in a different "nation".
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Old 12-01-2019, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jophiel View Post
At my very first glance, I'd assume a person in rural midstate Illinois has more in common with a person from rural Wisconsin than a person from Chicago does, yet Chicago and all of WI are part of "Yankeedom" and the guy in Lacon, IL is in a different "nation".
I like to think that we, along with parts of Canada, are united by our Maple syrup production in a region called Sapland.
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Old 12-01-2019, 04:01 PM
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So, Fredericton is more like Detroit than Windsor?
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Old 12-01-2019, 05:20 PM
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So, Fredericton is more like Detroit than Windsor?
In terms of tree vampires, certainly.
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Old 12-01-2019, 06:21 PM
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What a bunch of nonsense. I wonder how many actual humans in each region the author ever met. I know from experience that very, very few places are as homogeneous as this map implies. The school I work at has about 600 students from 25 different national heritages. Some families have been here for more than 200 years, and others just got here a few months ago. Very different cultures and worldviews.

I don't know what has changed in 25 years, but Naples, FL was nothing like Miami when I lived there, yet they are lumped in the same region. I can only think this was based on ignorance and imagination.
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