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  #151  
Old 02-05-2020, 05:43 PM
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You're an idiot if you ignore that, but that's really interesting.
No, but seriously, do you think there's ONE voter out there whose thought process will be "Anything to get this country right... anything but a Jew" ? OK, I mean, this America. You guys are collectively the Michelangelos of brain death. So there probably is one out there. But I'm still tentatively hopeful that the people who think like that ? They already vote Trump, and furthermore they wouldn't vote D if their entire life depended on it. Which, realistically speaking, it does.

Last edited by Kobal2; 02-05-2020 at 05:44 PM.
  #152  
Old 02-05-2020, 05:53 PM
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You sincerely see minimal policy and belief differences between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders?

In any sane country, they aren’t even on the same side of the spectrum.
Your view of the spectrum reminds me of the old New Yorker cartoon describing how a Manhattanite sees the United States, in which New Jersey (Trump) and San Francisco (Biden) are virtually indistinguishable, and New York (Bernie) dominates everything.

Ah, here we are:

https://www.citylab.com/design/2015/...merica/400142/
  #153  
Old 02-05-2020, 05:58 PM
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You sincerely see minimal policy and belief differences between Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders?

In any sane country, they aren’t even on the same side of the spectrum.
Even in this country, they're not members of the same party. Well, unless it becomes politically expedient to play remora for a cycle.
  #154  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:48 PM
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You probably should have actually ready part of the thread before trying to TL;DR.

I guess you missed where he called everyone condescending pricks, assholes, and corporate dick sucking third way right wing democrats.

Fuck that noise, and fuck you for blatantly defending someone being an asshole because he got called on his moronic batshit conspiracy theory. Feel free to rant like a little twat like the OP because "name calling".

Asshat.
Nah fuck you, you are condescending prick, an asshole, and a corporate dick sucking third way right wing democrat. All "moderate" (whatever the fuck that means) democrats are.

And seriously fuck you. You're fucking up not only your own place but everyone else's and you have been for a long fucking time. 90% of the world couldn't care less about your geopolitical agendas, but you fucking force it down our throats, no matter where we live. And politicians in many, if not most places, also my place, follows along, with the obvious result of minor trumpists popping up like shrooms in a graveyard. Fuck you.

And of course, fuck american republicans. Worst bunch since the optimates.
  #155  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:53 PM
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I don't feel attacked, but I know lots of young Bernie supporters (who say they will support the nominee) who do
I didn't say "feel attacked," I said would not support the nominee. I didn't care if someone with hurt feelings went into the booth that November and pulled the saddest lever for Hillary Clinton. I care even less this time out.

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and I think this kind of feeling and back-and-forth is helping Trump, and thus I recommend it stop. Because we'll need all those votes, whomever the nominee is, and unless vague and broad-brushed attacks aimed at Bernie supporters have some hidden anti-Trump upside that I'm unaware of, then we should refrain from these because they will inevitably turn off some voters that we'll need.
The primaries are when we're supposed to pick the best candidate. Then everyone is supposed to coalesce around the nominee.

There is zero problems with people wanting their candidate to win the nomination, there is zero problems even with a contentious primary (Obama and Hillary went at it pretty fierce and pretty late in the game and that worked out okay).

However despite some Hillary voters claiming they would not support Obama. Remember the PUMA set? I do. As does Seth Masket at Vox:
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Judging from public opinion polls and my own observations on the convention floor, Clinton's most ardent backers overwhelmingly followed her enthusiastic endorsement of Obama. PUMA's threats never materialized. No Clinton delegates led a walkout during the convention or tried to shout over speakers.

The tone is definitely different this week. While most of Sanders's backers have indicated their support for Clinton, a rather vocal minority has refused to do so. Some of them are audibly chanting over podium speakers, and some led a walkout after the roll call vote in which Sanders moved to nominate Clinton by acclamation. Several of those who walked out even marched with Jill Stein, the nominee of another party.
The article goes on to hypothesize that the reason they're worse now is because Hillary supporters were actually Democrats with some loyalty to the party.

Bernie himself cannot make that claim. He only has a D- by his name when it's politically expedient. And many of his supporters are the same way. You have seen it in this very thread, dude.

So please quit putting those of us who just want everyone to support the eventual nominee on par with those of us who sneer about "corporatist centrists." This fence-riding #NotAllBernieSupporters bullshit is demonstratively wrong. Both sides are not just as bad. It's not even close.
  #156  
Old 02-05-2020, 06:54 PM
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Regardless of Trump, Obama changed fuck all. Debate me with knives.
Kids are in cages, asshole. Guess you missed that.
  #157  
Old 02-05-2020, 07:20 PM
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Kids are in cages, asshole. Guess you missed that.
How did Obama change that?
  #158  
Old 02-05-2020, 07:49 PM
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I didn't say "feel attacked," I said would not support the nominee. I didn't care if someone with hurt feelings went into the booth that November and pulled the saddest lever for Hillary Clinton. I care even less this time out.

The primaries are when we're supposed to pick the best candidate. Then everyone is supposed to coalesce around the nominee.

There is zero problems with people wanting their candidate to win the nomination, there is zero problems even with a contentious primary (Obama and Hillary went at it pretty fierce and pretty late in the game and that worked out okay).

However despite some Hillary voters claiming they would not support Obama. Remember the PUMA set? I do. As does Seth Masket at Vox:The article goes on to hypothesize that the reason they're worse now is because Hillary supporters were actually Democrats with some loyalty to the party.

Bernie himself cannot make that claim. He only has a D- by his name when it's politically expedient. And many of his supporters are the same way. You have seen it in this very thread, dude.

So please quit putting those of us who just want everyone to support the eventual nominee on par with those of us who sneer about "corporatist centrists." This fence-riding #NotAllBernieSupporters bullshit is demonstratively wrong. Both sides are not just as bad. It's not even close.
This doesn't really appear to conflict with what I've written in this thread. My goal here is for everyone to support the eventual nominee - I think certain rhetorical strategies might harm that effort. "Bernie or bust" certainly qualifies, as does, IMO, broad brushing and vague attacks on Bernie supporters.
  #159  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:10 PM
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but ultimately he was disappointing because he was not able to enact transformational change, especially on the issue of how the rich are accruing and wielding greater power, which is the greatest threat to our democracy and our country at this time.
So you're mad that he didn't just declare himself a dictator for life?

Let me know when you understand how a bill becomes law.
  #160  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:25 PM
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How did Obama change that?
Um, by not having it on his watch? You need a map to figure out your ass from a hole in the ground, don't you.
  #161  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:26 PM
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This doesn't really appear to conflict with what I've written in this thread. My goal here is for everyone to support the eventual nominee - I think certain rhetorical strategies might harm that effort. "Bernie or bust" certainly qualifies, as does, IMO, broad brushing and vague attacks on Bernie supporters.
Except you make some dumb false bothsiderism to make your point. And as I said, it's dumb.
  #162  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:33 PM
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... respectfully, no, because *helplessly waves hand vaguely at everything*

ETA : and just as respectfully, if Bern really can't beat Trump ? Then fuck this Earth. I mean it.
Bernie believes that he can just transform everything, and so do his voters.

If Bernie happens to become president, he's going to have to work with Mitch McConnell -- and he's going to have to convince Republicans that they should be scared of losing their jobs if they don't pass massive tax increases and end private insurance as we know it.

People who hated Hillary and disappointed with Barack Obama just don't get it - they are not the problem. It's their idiot neighbors who are the problem. This country is hopelessly stupid. In the meantime, we're all better off with incremental progress than regression at warp speed.
  #163  
Old 02-05-2020, 08:47 PM
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain, how is Bernie attractive to a swing voter that is leaning towards Trump?
It may seem odd, with Trump and Sanders at completely opposite at ends of the political spectrum, but there are millions of Americans who might vote for either Trump or Sanders! Many Americans vote for personality, not policy. Trump and Sanders are both angry white men who wave their hands around. You didn't know that the "thinking" of millions of American voters goes no deeper than that?

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[Moderating]
Expressing the desire for another Doper to come to physical harm is a violation of the board's rules. Please avoid doing this in the future.

No warning issued.
[/Moderating]
[Half-Joking]
May we express desire for the Doper to be waterboarded? The CIA has ruled that does no physical harm. Sleep deprivation? Locked in a chastity cage while taunted by Princess Lexie?
[/Joking]
  #164  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:00 PM
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Why do you have such hate and disdain for a youth movement more involved in politics than anything we’ve seen since the 1960s? Why do you want to take a whole generation of very enthusiastic, very active young people and insult them, demoralize them, alienate them, and try to crush their enthusiasm?

Because you’re gatekeeping the Overton window in this country? Because you want the “liberal democrats” to stay a moderate right party? Because they have enthusiasm for an individual you don’t like? Because they aren’t as jaded as you are about politics, convinced that nothing that actually makes things better for people can be done?

Look at you. You’re talking about a sizable politically active movement and doing your best to brow beat them and telling them to fuck off instead of trying to integrate them into your party. How does that make the country a better place? How does that even advance your own political agenda?

This is one of the reasons the democrats always lose. Here you have your next generation of political support, far more politically active and more likely to vote than kids in previous generations, and you’d rather insult them and alienate them and tell them to go fuck themselves than to try to integrate them into your party.

The most sickening part of it is that they are better people than you are. They want to enact real systemic change to help people. You want the same oligarchical corporate boot licking we’ve had for decades as the average person gets more and more underwater. And somehow you think you have the position of moral superiority.

I can’t believe that even after 4 years of Trump, you are still doing your best to discourage people from joining your coalition and trying to beat the enthusiasm out of them. It’s insanely stupid and toxic.

Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you making it as hard as possible to be on the same side as you?
The "Do as you are told, you worthless piece of shit" by people thinking they are fighting the good fight against authoritarianism is just mmmwhaaaa *kisses fingertips*
  #165  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:05 PM
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Bernie did ONE fuckin' march fifty years ago, got his little merit badge, then whiteflighted his ass to Vermont and named a couple of post offices. And ever since he's acted like black people owe him.
Wrong. Very very wrong. I don't want to see Bernie as the nominee, but let's stop spreading lies about him, OK?

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/06/b...ement-activismthis is just one of many tributes to Sanders as activist that Google turns up; I've drastically abbreviated even it.

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Bernie [was] the chairman of the university [of Chicago] chapter of the Congress for Racial Equality (CORE) and merged the group with SNCC. [He spent many hours distributing leaflets and in sit-ins.]

Bernie hates telling these stories and has resisted using them for political capital across the years; even when advisors and others have told him it would boost his profile he has refused. He does what he does because he cares. When I introduced Bernie at a rally in Los Angeles by sharing many of these stories, his own family came to me in tears saying that even they had never heard them before. He has always felt that what he did during the sixties paled in comparison to those who were beaten or lost their lives and so he has kept some powerful stories to himself.

It's cool for people to say, "I marched with Dr King" and Bernie actually did attend the March on Washington, but he did so much more than that. This is not some exaggerated myth. This is the origin story of a political revolutionary.

[Mayor Richard Daley, "still hailed as a Democratic hero to this day" developed the wretched "Willis Wagons" to school black children.] In August 1963 ... a brave interracial group of local activists and organizers decided to put their bodies on the line to block the installation of [more Willis Wagons]. They stood in front of bulldozers. They chained themselves together. Out of his reverence for what activists in the South were doing, Bernie has long since downplayed this demonstration, but it took so much courage.

Bernie, side by side with Black women, chained to them, refused to move. Even when the Chicago Police told him they would arrest him and forcefully remove him, he refused, and even when they decided to arrest Bernie and pick him up and carry him out of that parking lot so they could install those Willis Wagons, he kicked and screamed and resisted the entire way. Have you seen that photo of them carrying Bernie? I love it. And that photo, to me, is not just who Bernie was, it's who he's been his entire life.

To say that all of that means nothing is fundamentally preposterous. It means everything. Bernie was a protestor. Bernie was an activist. Bernie was an organizer. And he is literally the only person in the United States Senate with this story. When he retires, he will be the last activist from the civil rights era in the United States Senate.
...

I think we need a radical reconsideration of who Bernie is more faithfully centered in who he was when it mattered, and who he has been for generations now.
  #166  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:23 PM
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Again and again I warn Sanders supporters of the importance of voting for whoever the Democratic candidate is. Again and again I warn Sanders detractors of the importance of not smearing all Sanders supporters with the behaviors of the worst Sanders supporters.

We could emphasize our commonalities and work together toward our shared aim.

Or we could act like a bunch of terrified ferrets shoved down a Yorkshireman's pants.

We got choices.
Or, hear me out here, crazy idea coming, maybe people should vote, or not vote, their conscience?

Or not; and then go on bitching endlessly about the intractable partisanship and mindless hail-to-the-chiefism of the other guys is so deplorable.
  #167  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:30 PM
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My problem with Sanders is that, although far superior to Trump in every way, there is one characteristic they have in common, their popularity comes from division rather than uniting. The general argument I hear in his favor tend to be something like "I like his good liberal polices plus HE"S NOT A CORPORATE STOOGE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE". He's great as a gad fly, and superb at telling truth to power. He is his own man, and marches to the tune of a different drummer, all great qualities in certain circumstances, and truth be told I like him a lot, but he would be a lousy president.

He has shown no ability to build a coalition with people who may not follow his world view. He is an independent rather than a Democrat for exactly that reason, he doesn't want to have to work as part of a team. This page shows a plot of leadership vs ideology. In general there is a V shape that indicates the more ideological the senator the more they can get other senators to support their bills. But in the lower left corner there is one grey dot, a highly ideological senator who gets very few people to work with him. That is Bernie Sanders.

If he were to with the general election and become president (a big if) he would have a hard time getting his plans through congress. He wouldn't have the ability to schmooze, horse trade or otherwise finagle others to go along with his priorities. Unlike Trump he won't have a party that acts in lockstep receiving orders from a news source with a singular agenda. Democrats from moderate or swing districts aren't necessarily going to fall in line, the result being 4 years of nothing.

That said, I would crawl a mile over broken glass to vote for Sanders over Trump.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 02-05-2020 at 09:32 PM.
  #168  
Old 02-05-2020, 09:48 PM
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Or, hear me out here, crazy idea coming, maybe people should vote, or not vote, their conscience?
Just so I'm clear: what's the real-world difference between what you're calling "voting their conscience" and World Transcendental Meditation Day?
  #169  
Old 02-05-2020, 10:37 PM
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Just so I'm clear: what's the real-world difference between what you're calling "voting their conscience" and World Transcendental Meditation Day?
You skipped the second paragraph.
  #170  
Old 02-05-2020, 10:44 PM
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My problem with Sanders is that, although far superior to Trump in every way, there is one characteristic they have in common, their popularity comes from division rather than uniting. The general argument I hear in his favor tend to be something like "I like his good liberal polices plus HE"S NOT A CORPORATE STOOGE LIKE EVERYONE ELSE". He's great as a gad fly, and superb at telling truth to power. He is his own man, and marches to the tune of a different drummer, all great qualities in certain circumstances, and truth be told I like him a lot, but he would be a lousy president.

He has shown no ability to build a coalition with people who may not follow his world view. He is an independent rather than a Democrat for exactly that reason, he doesn't want to have to work as part of a team. This page shows a plot of leadership vs ideology. In general there is a V shape that indicates the more ideological the senator the more they can get other senators to support their bills. But in the lower left corner there is one grey dot, a highly ideological senator who gets very few people to work with him. That is Bernie Sanders.

If he were to with the general election and become president (a big if) he would have a hard time getting his plans through congress. He wouldn't have the ability to schmooze, horse trade or otherwise finagle others to go along with his priorities. Unlike Trump he won't have a party that acts in lockstep receiving orders from a news source with a singular agenda. Democrats from moderate or swing districts aren't necessarily going to fall in line, the result being 4 years of nothing.

That said, I would crawl a mile over broken glass to vote for Sanders over Trump.
Excellent post. Bernie Sanders would be the most isolated and impotent president in the history of the republic. He has no political base, or capital. None of his ambitious policy goals would be realized. Sometimes people forget just how conservative this country is, even on the left.
  #171  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:16 PM
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Bernie believes that he can just transform everything, and so do his voters.

If Bernie happens to become president, he's going to have to work with Mitch McConnell -- and he's going to have to convince Republicans that they should be scared of losing their jobs if they don't pass massive tax increases and end private insurance as we know it.

People who hated Hillary and disappointed with Barack Obama just don't get it - they are not the problem. It's their idiot neighbors who are the problem. This country is hopelessly stupid. In the meantime, we're all better off with incremental progress than regression at warp speed.
True, true - but at the same time there is so much thumbscrew Obama could have applied on Mitch & co. merely by virtue of chiefing the executive, or simply having a pen and paper with "Executive order" stationery. If anything, Trump has showed just how far a President could go just by saying "I'm doing it, what are ya gonna do about it ?". E.g. Obama could have ordered gitmo closed and presented it as a fait accompli, he didn't. He could have declared (as in fact many legal scholars argue would have been constitutional and not entirely without precedent) "oh, you won't even have a vote on Garland ? So you tacitly agree then, he's in, we're done here" and countered any accusation of not following procedure or breaking tradition/decorum with "are you high right now, dawg ?!".

He spent 8 years asking for bipartisan compromise and extending contrite hands, only to get told to fuck off forever. Only in his last year did he let a little of the fuck you right back out - in speeches that is.
Turning enemies into friends is fine and burying hatchets is good, but going to your enemy's home again after their tried to Julius Caesar you the last five times they invited you is not exactly smrt. At some point there is some worth in activating plan "fuck you where you live" instead. The carrot needs stick support. And I think an old cantakerous socialist who doesn't really care about but-what-will-people-say (or reelection, really), if nothing else, has some fire and "fuck you" in 'im that even Warren doesn't (despite her ideas also being mostly OK and her probably being better at working with other democrats).
And while he may play the politics game badly, the public at least would possibly welcome actual leadership of ideas and ideals instead of yet another season of the Horse Trading show. Americans like a cantankerous old man with inspiring fire in his belly and a gun in his trousers. Ask Teddy Roos'. Come to think of it, has anybody thought to ask Sanders what his position was re:having a pet bear in the White House ? Or at least a violently unhinged honey badger he could let loose when Mitch is in the building ?
  #172  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:18 PM
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Excellent post. Bernie Sanders would be the most isolated and impotent president in the history of the republic. He has no political base, or capital. None of his ambitious policy goals would be realized. Sometimes people forget just how conservative this country is, even on the left.
I'd think "winning a national election in spite of all the fuckery coming from both sides" would grant one a modicum of political capital at least
  #173  
Old 02-05-2020, 11:56 PM
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Nah fuck you, you are condescending prick, an asshole, and a corporate dick sucking third way right wing democrat. All "moderate" (whatever the fuck that means) democrats are.

And seriously fuck you. You're fucking up not only your own place but everyone else's and you have been for a long fucking time. 90% of the world couldn't care less about your geopolitical agendas, but you fucking force it down our throats, no matter where we live. And politicians in many, if not most places, also my place, follows along, with the obvious result of minor trumpists popping up like shrooms in a graveyard. Fuck you.

And of course, fuck american republicans. Worst bunch since the optimates.
For reference, the OP STILL hasn't provided a single basis of fact for his theory that the issues in Iowa were planned to fuck over Bernie. That he was called for that bit of bullshit spawned this entire thread, replete with namecalling and "fuck yous".

I could point out that you don't know shit about me other than my posts criticizing the OP for doing exactly what he was complaining about, and that others are defending the blatant hypocrisy - but whiny children don't get explanations, they get time outs.
  #174  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:09 AM
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He has no political base, or capital.
Then how come he's so close to being the nominee?

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  #175  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:33 AM
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I'm saying there is non-trivial number of voters that will withhold their vote from a female candidate, a black candidate, a gay candidate, a jewish candidate, etc... And I'm not so polyanna-ish as to pretend that no bigot of that sort exists in the Dem tent. I have no numbers to back up my claim but I suspect there are more of those types of unwoke Dems than the ones who claim to have voted for Obama before they voted for Trump. The left is not immune from tribalism and bigotry and I think you know that. To say, 'Yeah, but no rational person... so who cares about those yahoos!', warms the cockles of my heart, but does not keep my brain from wondering if they'll stay home. Which is not to suggest IN ANY WAY they need to be obliged or catered to by not putting forward a female-gay-jew nominee. Just that they ought not be treated with kid gloves in order to keep them from voting for Trump out of spite.

Does that help? Tell me that helps.
Oh, sorry, had missed your answer. Apologies. And yes, it helps, but that kind of thing is both more or less impossible to quantify and not morally worthy of being addressed to begin with. I mean, if the morons really let Trump win because Jew/gay/woman then they deserve whatever hellscape they get. I mean it sucks for we entire rest of the planet having to share it, but...
Ultimately that's kind of my answer to the "on the next election, if it's Macron or the Nazis, it sucks but we will have to re-elect Macron !" as well - like, if that's the choice you spiteful morons will have boiled it down to, then fuck all o' y'all and enjoy the radioactive lions eating your faces. I can't help any of you, and at this point I won't even want to.
  #176  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:38 AM
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I'd think "winning a national election in spite of all the fuckery coming from both sides" would grant one a modicum of political capital at least
Sanders never joined the Democratic party, so essentially he is an independent. When I say he is no political base, I mean in Congress. Who has he helped elect? Who are his allies? Who owes him? His platform is not the platform of the Democratic party. Maybe a handful of folks in the House and a few Senators will play along, but that's it. If you think Bernie will passing his agenda, you're a crackhead who should never comment again on American politics. See: Barack Obama and healthcare. And this after getting more votes than any other candidate in history, before or since. Popular sentiment gets you in the door; Washington realities can slam it in your popular face. And Obama had a massive political machine behind him. Bernie has AOC and Danny DeVito.

Winning an election is great. Governing is an entirely different animal, and Bernie Sanders is a toothless kitty cat. A grass roots movement succeeds from the bottom up. This is just another cult of personality that's going nowhere, even if it happens to find itself in the White House.
  #177  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:07 AM
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When I say he is no political base, I mean in Congress. [...} Bernie has AOC
Yeah, OK.
  #178  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:19 AM
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(I also like the combination "grassroots movements start from the bottom up !" "what kind of top down establishment support y'all movements got ?" argument, it's a p. spicy meat-a-ball)
  #179  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:20 AM
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There is not a single voter out there who might swing Trump, or might swing Dem, it's down to arguments and the free marketplace of ideas...
Utterly clueless. You're out of your depth here.
  #180  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:29 AM
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Utterly clueless. You're out of your depth here.
Uh-huh. Keep the hot takes coming.
  #181  
Old 02-06-2020, 06:45 AM
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Bernie supporters, a group of people who the only thing we’re grouping them by is their support for Bernie, should stop supporting Bernie and throw their support behind a woman instead, and if they don’t, that clearly demonstrates that they’re sexist?

Who else wants to come out and endorse this view?
I know it's not been very long since you made this offer, but I'm wondering if you've had anybody take you up on it.
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  #182  
Old 02-06-2020, 06:59 AM
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Regardless of Trump, Obama changed fuck all. Debate me with knives.
I mean... ACA and gay marriage. But I'm sure those don't count for some reason even though protection for pre-existing conditions and marriage equality wouldn't have happened in a million years under a GOP president.
  #183  
Old 02-06-2020, 07:16 AM
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Oh, sorry, had missed your answer. Apologies. And yes, it helps, but that kind of thing is both more or less impossible to quantify and not morally worthy of being addressed to begin with. I mean, if the morons really let Trump win because Jew/gay/woman then they deserve whatever hellscape they get. I mean it sucks for we entire rest of the planet having to share it, but...
Ultimately that's kind of my answer to the "on the next election, if it's Macron or the Nazis, it sucks but we will have to re-elect Macron !" as well - like, if that's the choice you spiteful morons will have boiled it down to, then fuck all o' y'all and enjoy the radioactive lions eating your faces. I can't help any of you, and at this point I won't even want to.
In a free democratic election, the people deserve the government they get. It has always been thus. But that is just an old aphorism. Washing your hands of it won't solve the problem any more than sweeping racists or mad B-bros (no intended equation) under the rug. I get the temptation to want to pacify the bigoted assholes who happen to ostensibly be 'on your side' when there is so much at stake. But I think it behooves people to try to be less hypocritical about behaving as if the ends justifying the means. Once again, to the chagrin of some, I bring up the traditional Republicans and conservatives who justifiably (or not) got painted with the broad brush of Trump cultism and all that it entails. I caution my fellow liberals/progressives/Dems not to excuse the Bernie-or-Bust asshattery when it is revealed. Yes, Bernie Sanders would be infinitely better than Trump and possibly better than some Dem contenders. But if he is not the nominee, taking your bat and ball home makes you a what again? Correct: a petulant fucking twat! So stop pretending you're helping the progressive cause and fuck your feelings.*
(*Not directed at you, K2. Just staying on topic of the thread.)
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  #184  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:11 AM
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No, but seriously, do you think there's ONE voter out there whose thought process will be "Anything to get this country right... anything but a Jew" ? OK, I mean, this America. You guys are collectively the Michelangelos of brain death. So there probably is one out there. But I'm still tentatively hopeful that the people who think like that ? They already vote Trump, and furthermore they wouldn't vote D if their entire life depended on it. Which, realistically speaking, it does.
Ahem.. WE get to trash our political system and vilify our government. YOU don't, cheese-eating surrender monkey.
  #185  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:35 AM
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This. A million times this.
I grew up near New York City, then lived in freakin’ Berkeley, California....and then a decade in Kansas, and half a decade in Wisconsin (not Madison).
I agree with nearly every GOAL that Sanders espouses....BUT I am keenly aware of the realities of the voting public in this country, that my friends who stayed in New York and California JUST. DON’T. GET.

(This was in reply to asahi’s post:
“ Bernie believes that he can just transform everything, and so do his voters.

If Bernie happens to become president, he's going to have to work with Mitch McConnell -- and he's going to have to convince Republicans that they should be scared of losing their jobs if they don't pass massive tax increases and end private insurance as we know it.

People who hated Hillary and disappointed with Barack Obama just don't get it - they are not the problem. It's their idiot neighbors who are the problem. This country is hopelessly stupid. In the meantime, we're all better off with incremental progress than regression at warp speed.”)

Last edited by JKellyMap; 02-06-2020 at 08:37 AM.
  #186  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:54 AM
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I'm trying to quote #165, but it just won't work.

That article you cited just proved my point. Lots of platitudes and drama----very much like Bernie himself----but, again, the last thing he did for POC was fifty-odd years ago. "Chained himself to black women"? If he had done so, I'm sure a little birdie would have gotten that out to his worshipful groupies by now.
  #187  
Old 02-06-2020, 08:57 AM
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Kobal2 made good points about how Obama was less forceful than he could have been regarding closing the Gitmo detention center, maybe with Merrick Garland (though I don’t see what else he could have done), etc. But, that doesn’t mean a Sanders type could just ram through big changes.

Some of the worst damage Trump has done is by appointing heads of federal agencies (etc.) who are literally opposed to the mandate of their agency. What’s the opposite of this? Simply appointing people who can DO THEIR FREAKING JOB. Trump is ruining everything by being shitty at everything, thus “accomplishing” what his followers say they want. This isn’t a template that a progressive can follow. You can’t accomplish progressive goals merely by being shitty at everything, but in the opposite direction.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 02-06-2020 at 08:58 AM.
  #188  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:04 AM
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Ahem.. WE get to trash our political system and vilify our government. YOU don't, cheese-eating surrender monkey.
He's right, though - Europe has completely eradicated left-wing antisemitism.
  #189  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:08 AM
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He's right, though - Europe has completely eradicated left-wing antisemitism.
...you're being sarcastic, right?
  #190  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:12 AM
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Yes. Yes I am.
  #191  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:38 AM
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He's right, though - Europe has completely eradicated left-wing antisemitism.
Fair point
  #192  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:48 AM
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Ahem.. WE get to trash our political system and vilify our government. YOU don't, cheese-eating surrender monkey.
I'm sorry did you... did you just tell a French person to not be snooty and patronizing towards foreigners ? What fresh nonsense will you expect of me next, strict monogamy ?!
  #193  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:02 AM
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I'm sorry did you... did you just tell a French person to not be snooty and patronizing towards foreigners ? What fresh nonsense will you expect of me next, strict monogamy ?!
God, no. But for chrissake, stop making movies, sorry, films.
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  #194  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:06 AM
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Nah fuck you, you are condescending prick, an asshole, and a corporate dick sucking third way right wing democrat. All "moderate" (whatever the fuck that means) democrats are.

And seriously fuck you. You're fucking up not only your own place but everyone else's and you have been for a long fucking time. 90% of the world couldn't care less about your geopolitical agendas, but you fucking force it down our throats, no matter where we live. And politicians in many, if not most places, also my place, follows along, with the obvious result of minor trumpists popping up like shrooms in a graveyard. Fuck you.

And of course, fuck american republicans. Worst bunch since the optimates.
Wait a fucking minute there. A lot of us USED TO BE moderate somewhere in the middle type Dems. We weren't "far" anything or "extreme" anything ---

UNTIL THEY MOVED THE FUCKING GOALPOSTS. I lean toward left and liberal, but I sense that I fail your "purity test" too.

You just better not throw your own vote away over ideological bullshit. ONCE WAS ENOUGH.
  #195  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:13 AM
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Wait a fucking minute there. A lot of us USED TO BE moderate somewhere in the middle type Dems. We weren't "far" anything or "extreme" anything ---

UNTIL THEY MOVED THE FUCKING GOALPOSTS. I lean toward left and liberal, but I sense that I fail your "purity test" too.

You just better not throw your own vote away over ideological bullshit. ONCE WAS ENOUGH.
Second that.
  #196  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:26 AM
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An exceptionally good, down-to-earth article, published a few days ago:

Why Democrats share the blame for the rise of Donald Trump
by Robert Reich

(Reich served in the administrations of Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton. He was Secretary of Labor from 1993 to 1997. He was a member of President Barack Obama's economic transition advisory board.)

Quote:
Democrats had occupied the White House for 16 of the 24 years before Trump’s election, and in that time scored some important victories for working families: the Affordable Care Act, an expanded Earned Income Tax Credit and the Family and Medical Leave Act, for example. I take pride in being part of a Democratic administration during that time.

But Democrats did nothing to change the vicious cycle of wealth and power that had rigged the economy for the benefit of those at the top and undermined the working class.

In the first two years of the Bill Clinton and Barack Obama administrations, Democrats controlled both houses of Congress. ...

Both stood by as corporations hammered trade unions, the backbone of the white working class. They failed to reform labor laws to allow workers to form unions with a simple up-or-down majority vote, or even to impose meaningful penalties on companies that violated labor protections. Clinton deregulated Wall Street before the crash; Obama allowed the Street to water down attempts to re-regulate it after the crash. Obama protected Wall Street from the consequences of its gambling addiction through a giant taxpayer-funded bailout, but allowed millions of underwater homeowners to drown.

Both Clinton and Obama turned their backs on campaign finance reform. In 2008, Obama was the first presidential nominee since Richard Nixon to reject public financing in his primary and general election campaigns, and he never followed up on his re-election promise to pursue a constitutional amendment overturning Citizens United vs FEC, the 2010 supreme court opinion opening wider the floodgates to big money in politics.

Although Clinton and Obama faced increasingly hostile Republican congresses, they could have rallied the working class and built a coalition to grab back power from the emerging oligarchy. Yet they chose not to. Why?

My answer is not just hypothetical, because I directly witnessed much of it: it was because Clinton, Obama and many congressional Democrats sought the votes of the “suburban swing voter” – so-called “soccer moms” in the 1990s and affluent politically independent professionals in the 2000s – who supposedly determine electoral outcomes, and turned their backs on the working class. They also drank from the same campaign funding trough as the Republicans – big corporations, Wall Street and the very wealthy.
...

The most powerful force in American politics today continues to be anti-establishment fury at a rigged system. There is no longer a left or right. There’s no longer a moderate “center”. There’s either Trump’s authoritarian populism or democratic – small “d” – populism.

Last edited by GreenWyvern; 02-06-2020 at 11:30 AM.
  #197  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:35 AM
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An exceptionally good, down-to-earth article, published a few days ago:

Why Democrats share the blame for the rise of Donald Trump
by Robert Reich

(Reich served in the administrations of Presidents Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton. He was Secretary of Labor from 1993 to 1997. He was a member of President Barack Obama's economic transition advisory board.)
Why didn't Obama pursue his post 2012 re-election promise to overturn Citizens United?? That has got to be one of the most disingenuous questions Robert Reich has ever asked. With what fucking congressional support was Obama going to get that passed when Republican congress members had already declared him a one term president and pretty much obstructed what color suit he would be permitted to wear.

Honestly... Robert Reich can be such a wanker.
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  #198  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:42 AM
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In the UK recently we had life long Labour voters refusing to vote Labour as they didn’t like Jeremy Corbyn.

Fuck those voters who refused to vote Labour just cos they didn’t like Corbyn & fuck those harder who actually voted Conservative cos they didn’t like Jeremy.

It baffles me & lets me lose sleep how the people described above can sleep at night & switch their loyalties so easily
  #199  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:57 AM
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״Loyalties”? Voters should never be loyal to politicians - it just makes them take us for granted. Politicians should be loyal to voters.
  #200  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:06 PM
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People keep saying Sanders will have to work with McConnell. For now, I prefer to believe Sanders will be working with McSally. I for one am donating to her campaign, and I am nowhere near Kentucky. POTUS isn't the only thing on the line this year.

While I am posting here, I'll second the "vote your conscience" sentiment. The Dems should Not become the party of Fall In Line. They need to run a campaign people want to vote for and win that way IMHO. If Bernie Bros don't want to play ball, they can exercise their American freedom as they see fit. If some want to call them fuck-os for that, that is also their right.
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