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  #101  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PunditLisa View Post
Still canít figure out if Arya and The Hound love or hate each other.
My thinking is that Arya is what a daughter would be to the Hound and that the Hound is a temporary replacement father-figure for young Arya.

Each cares for the other, but each also thinks the other is stupid or foolish.
  #102  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:38 PM
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Good point. They also established that Dani is not the only one who the Dragon's will respond to. That's a big part of her plot armor.
She still has "breaking the wheel" to look forward to. But I wonder if Martin (or the showrunners) will flip that to show that the wheel cannot be broken. I mean, even in our modern and democratic United States of America, we've still had our aristocracy--the Hearsts, the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers--who could very often flout the law or use economic pressure to make whole populations do what they wanted.

The wheel might very well break her if Cersei sticks to her plan to mop up after the monsters kill each other. If only she had a couple of elephants.
  #103  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:40 PM
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Waif: Tell me about The Hound.

Ayra: Also dead. Ayra Stark left him to die. He was on her list.

Waif whacks Ayra with the stick to indicate she is lying

Ayra: He was not on her list anymore. She'd taken him off it.

Waif: Why? Didn't she want him dead any longer?

Ayra: She did and she did not.

Waif: She sounds confused.

Ayra: Yes, she was.
  #104  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:41 PM
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I'll predict that Jon will convince Sam to keep his identity secret, but something will happen that forces the issue. Perhaps the dragons will start obeying Jon over Daeneris, or some magic will be needed that only the true king can accomplish, and it will have to be Jon. Something like that.

There's no way he can just announce that he's the rightful heir to the throne based on the word of his friend who has reason to hate Daeneris and his strange little brother. It will have to be revealed to everyone in some spectacular way, I'd think.

Also, the Golden Company may be there to fight for Cersei, but I suspect that if they run into the army of the dead they may simply fight for the living and join the northern alliance. Games of Thrones take a back seat to survival against pure evil.
  #105  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:56 PM
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I was wondering about that. Why didn't Jon ask how Sam knew his true parentage? And yes, convincing everyone else is going to require some evidence.
  #106  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:17 PM
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For Cersei:

The Simpons - Where's my elephant?
  #107  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:22 PM
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I was wondering about that. Why didn't Jon ask how Sam knew his true parentage? And yes, convincing everyone else is going to require some evidence.
Sam told him how he knew:

"Bran and I worked it out. I had a high septon's diary. Bran had...whatever Bran has."

But I think Jon doesn't ask for more information because in his heart of hearts he knows it's true.

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There's no way he can just announce that he's the rightful heir to the throne based on the word of his friend who has reason to hate Daeneris and his strange little brother.
I believe the books Sam stole from The Citadel probably included the septon's diary, so it's not just his word. But it would be a bad move for Jon to announce it publicly. Which means that's exactly what he will do.
  #108  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:27 PM
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But it would be a bad move for Jon to announce it publicly. Which means that's exactly what he will do.
Yep. Our boy isn't the sharpest pencil in the case. If there's a way to fuck it up, Jon will find it.
  #109  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:38 PM
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I think ive guessed the outcome.

Dany and Gendry marry for political reasons. They have a miserable loveless marriage. Jon sits in the north and broods like Conan at the end of the first Conan film.
  #110  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:46 PM
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Grey Worm gets his cock back (a reanimated wight one maybe?) and sits on the throne with Gilly?
Cause thats about the only ending I have not seen proposed...
How about Grey Worm teams up with Varys? Between the two of them, one set of male genitalia.

Last edited by Dewey Finn; 04-15-2019 at 01:47 PM.
  #111  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:47 PM
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Cersei and her maybe pregnancy. The way they showed her cupping her belly at the end of last season, you'd have thought she was far enough along to have a belly bump. But she didn't look significantly pregnant this episode -- and Euron should have gotten a very close look while having sex with her, and his comment about putting a prince in her belly shows he wasn't at all suspicious.
I also thought I remembered seeing a baby bump. And in a normal world, she should be several months into her pregnancy by now. The first couple of seasons made it a point to drag out how long it took to travel from one side of Westeros to another.

The only way to reconcile what we're seeing in this season is to assume that time has stopped. Castle Black is closer to Winterfall that any other major location. The White Walker army should have beat everybody else there or be lurking on its doorstep. Cersei should be massively pregnant. The dragons should be eating the corpses of the thousands of Dothrakis dying from the cold. Instead it's time loops all the way down.
  #112  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:51 PM
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There was a scene, several years ago, when Sansa woke up in bloody sheets and Shae helped her get rid of them. But that was her getting her first menstrual period and thus being old enough to be married to Joffery.
I didn't mistake one scene for the other, but I just watched the episode, and there's no such scene, indeed. I don't have the slightest clue how I imagined this, but I was firmly convinced I had seen it, and believed since the last season that she had been shown having a miscarriage. That's weird.
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  #113  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:53 PM
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That scene was part of a massive spoiler leak for the season, however. Maybe that's where you got it.
  #114  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:59 PM
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I think you guys are missing a thematic point about Jon Snow's leadership and savvy. That's understandable, since the show's writers did too.

We all think of being Ned Stark as being dumb, but that's an oversimplification. Who wouldn't want Ned Stark's leadership right now, rallying the world against the army of the dead? Ned Stark was bound strictly by a code of honor. His code of honor was an effective, positive trait for ruling the North. Life is hard in the North, they don't have the luxury of big harvests and mild winters that allow the rest of the Seven Kingdoms to have enough prosperity to waste a lot of it with in-fighting and playing the Game of Thrones. You have to have loyalty and unity up North, and wise leadership, otherwise everyone is going to die when winter comes. Even regular winters, not even end of the world army of the dead winters. So it makes perfect sense that a ruler from the North would need to be different than a ruler from anywhere else. Ned Stark was a great ruler, a wise man, and a good man. If he had never gone south, he'd be leading a united, relatively prosperous, peaceful North against the army of the dead. He just wasn't a southern ruler, and didn't have the ability or sense to account for that, because he spent his entire life up north. But that doesn't mean he was dumb or incompetent. It just means he had values that made him vulnerable to the snakes and backstabbers down south.

Jon Snow is very much Ned Stark's son, regardless of his lineage. Jon Snow is exactly the leader that the North needs now. He doesn't care about power, or ego, or having people kneel to him. He only cares about doing whatever it is he has to do to lead the North against the darkness coming for them. He is absolutely 100% the king the world needs now. The world needs Ned Stark, or Ned Stark's son.

So when you make fun of Jon Snow for saying something stupid or botching the politics, this is exactly the sort of thing that shouldn't matter, if everyone around him wasn't dumber or more petty or more concerned with their own power than he is. That's more their flaw than his flaw. Granted, if he was infinitely savvy, he'd somehow work within his own code of honor to be able to handle all of the various troubles before him, but no one is perfect. He's a believable character, he's Ned Stark's son, and he's what the world needs. Whoever in that world who doesn't realize that is undermining the chance the living have to make it out of this alive.
  #115  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:59 PM
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I also thought I remembered seeing a baby bump. And in a normal world, she should be several months into her pregnancy by now. The first couple of seasons made it a point to drag out how long it took to travel from one side of Westeros to another.
There was no baby bump, she just kept touching her stomach while talking about the future. So if she was pretty early on, she might just be 3/4 months.

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The only way to reconcile what we're seeing in this season is to assume that time has stopped. Castle Black is closer to Winterfall that any other major location. The White Walker army should have beat everybody else there or be lurking on its doorstep.
It's always safe to assume on this show that despite being shown in the same episode, events in separate locations are not necessarily happening at the same time. The ice dragon taking down the wall might have just happened the day before Jon/Dany got to Winterfell.
  #116  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:07 PM
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The White Walker army should have beat everybody else there or be lurking on its doorstep.
The movements of the Army of the Dead seem to operate on Heisenbergian principles. They were first seen at the Fist of the First Men in Season Two. Then in Season Five they are at Hardhome, which is way to the east. Then in Season Six they are at the Cave of the Three-Eyed Raven, which is presumably much farther north. They finally reach the Wall at the end of Season Seven. So it is impossible to determine both their speed and location at the same time.

Last edited by Colibri; 04-15-2019 at 02:07 PM.
  #117  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:15 PM
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I think people have a notion that the army of the dead is heading right for the wall but took 7 years to get there. That's obviously not true. The army of the dead can't move south until winter came. So they were wandering every which way around the area north of the wall, killing wildlings and adding to their army, waiting for the time to come to move south.
  #118  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:19 PM
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So when you make fun of Jon Snow for saying something stupid or botching the politics, this is exactly the sort of thing that shouldn't matter, if everyone around him wasn't dumber or more petty or more concerned with their own power than he is.
If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground when he hopped.

Yet despite the supposed importance of "honor" in the north, a number of Northern Houses went over to the Boltons when they looked to be more powerful. And Jon was assassinated by the members of the Night Watch who believed that he was betraying them, not some sleazy southerners.
  #119  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:19 PM
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Given that Cersei was drinking wine like a fish in this episode, I think there are two conclusions:

1. She isn't actually pregnant, and the pregnancy was a ruse for Tyrion. In that case, Sansa is right, and she's smarter than Tyrion at least when it comes to evaluating Cersei.

2. She's pregnant, but she's fully in Mad Queen mode an doesn't intend to survive until the baby is born. Her entire goal now is to murder her enemies then go out in a blaze of glory.

I wonder if we'll get a scene where the dead overrun King's Landing, and the Night's King steps up to sit on the Iron Throne - and the whole place goes up in Wildfire, killing the Night's King along with Cersei. This would make her the unwitting hero of the entire battle.
  #120  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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How about Grey Worm teams up with Varys? Between the two of them, one set of male genitalia.
I'm pretty sure that between them they have zero sets of male genitalia. "Cut root to stem" as Varys put it at one point.
  #121  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Why do people assume that Cersei wouldn't drink if she were pregnant? Perhaps no one in this society understands that you should not do so.
  #122  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:30 PM
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First two around 60 mins. Last four around 80 mins.
If you exclude the title sequence and the credits, this ep was about 54 min.

Last edited by Bone; 04-15-2019 at 02:30 PM.
  #123  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:33 PM
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Why do people assume that Cersei wouldn't drink if she were pregnant? Perhaps no one in this society understands that you should not do so.
That's the conclusion Tyrion jumped to when he observed she uncharacteristically wasn't drinking.
  #124  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:36 PM
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The movements of the Army of the Dead seem to operate on Heisenbergian principles. They were first seen at the Fist of the First Men in Season Two. Then in Season Five they are at Hardhome, which is way to the east. Then in Season Six they are at the Cave of the Three-Eyed Raven, which is presumably much farther north. They finally reach the Wall at the end of Season Seven. So it is impossible to determine both their speed and location at the same time.
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I think people have a notion that the army of the dead is heading right for the wall but took 7 years to get there. That's obviously not true. The army of the dead can't move south until winter came. So they were wandering every which way around the area north of the wall, killing wildlings and adding to their army, waiting for the time to come to move south.
I wanna know what the hell that White Walker was doing just outside the Wall way back in Episode 1.
  #125  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:43 PM
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Cersei hiring Bron to kill Tyrion and Jaime: will Bron remember Tyrion telling him that whatever anyone offered to pay Bron for killing Tyrion, Tyrion would pay double?

Of course, Bron may not think Tyrion is in any position to keep that promise, while Cersei handed over chests of gold on the barrel head.
In any normal TV show, it would look like Bronn was going to betray his buddies but he would pull a fast one in the end to save them. But here, I'm expecting Bronn to do something horrific to one or both. Or maybe something horrific to one that saves the other.
  #126  
Old 04-15-2019, 02:54 PM
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I wanna know what the hell that White Walker was doing just outside the Wall way back in Episode 1.
I thought that attack happened on the, er, north side of the Wall, and the survivor was captured by the Night's Watch over there, then brought south to Winterfell.

But I could be remembering wrong.
  #127  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:00 PM
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What I still don't understand is why the truth about Jon's parentage should make any difference at all to anyone except Jon and possibly his previously believed to be siblings now known to be cousins. Surely one of the largest themes in the story was expressed by Varys to Ned once: power resides where men believe it resides. So Jon turns out not to be Ned's bastard son at all but the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryan and Lyanna Stark; so what? Ooo, he's the true heir to the throne -- but for quite a while Viserys Targaryon was thought to be that, and that didn't do him any good in the end, did it?

For that matter, and I realize I could just look it up to pin down the timeframe, who died first, the Mad King or Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar was never crowned king, so surely either way Dany would have a strong claim to being the next one in succession as the Mad King's daughter over the son of the uncrowned heir apparent. Or have I gotten my rules of succession twisted up?

In any case, Dany's real claim to the throne is that she has dragons and armies. Without those, her bloodline wouldn't sway a single person in Westeros into supporting her, so why would Jon's?
  #128  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:00 PM
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I thought that attack happened on the, er, north side of the Wall, and the survivor was captured by the Night's Watch over there, then brought south to Winterfell.

But I could be remembering wrong.
It was on the North Side, but just north. Like a short walk from the wall. South of The Fist of the First Men and Hardhome.
  #129  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:02 PM
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It was on the North Side, but just north. Like a short walk from the wall. South of The Fist of the First Men and Hardhome.
We have no idea how far they were north of the Wall. It's not like there is a continuous shot from them leaving the Wall until they found the dead Wildlings.
  #130  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:11 PM
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For that matter, and I realize I could just look it up to pin down the timeframe, who died first, the Mad King or Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar was never crowned king, so surely either way Dany would have a strong claim to being the next one in succession as the Mad King's daughter over the son of the uncrowned heir apparent. Or have I gotten my rules of succession twisted up?
In terms of primogeniture (on Earth anyways) a son of a male heir would be next in line, regardless of whether the male heir perished before his father.
  #131  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:27 PM
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For that matter, and I realize I could just look it up to pin down the timeframe, who died first, the Mad King or Rhaegar? Because Rhaegar was never crowned king, so surely either way Dany would have a strong claim to being the next one in succession as the Mad King's daughter over the son of the uncrowned heir apparent. Or have I gotten my rules of succession twisted up?
I believe Rhaegar died first, but weren't Dany and Jon both born after the King died anyway? Viserys (remember him?) was next in line.
  #132  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:41 PM
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What I still don't understand is why the truth about Jon's parentage should make any difference at all to anyone except Jon and possibly his previously believed to be siblings now known to be cousins. Surely one of the largest themes in the story was expressed by Varys to Ned once: power resides where men believe it resides.
It won't make a difference, and you're right. Jon's parentage is nothing but a curiosity at this point in the game as far as human politics are concerned, even if nobody doubted it.

His bloodline will be very important for magical/prophetic reasons though. It's how the world will be saved from the White Walkers and the long night/winter they bring.
  #133  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:51 PM
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  #134  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:58 PM
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We have no idea how far they were north of the Wall. It's not like there is a continuous shot from them leaving the Wall until they found the dead Wildlings.
Here's the opening scene on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gWSe5PIP7Y

Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far.
  #135  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:06 PM
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Jamie and Bran were the last scene of the first episode of the first season so it makes a nice symmetry.

What possible good could Jamie imagine would come from showing up at Winterfell without an army to support the fight? He knows that most important people there have a reason to mistrust and hate him.

To give the bad news that help is not coming from the lannisters, secondly he is an accomplished military leader in his own right, one more sword might not make that much difference but one more general might.

Next, I can see the war on the dead taking about two more episodes and then its on to kings landing, having Jaime as a wildcard might be worth it.
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  #136  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:13 PM
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I saw an interview with Kit Harrington (aka Jon Snow) and he said his wife, Rose Leslie (who played Ygritte in GoT and was Jon Snow's lover), guessed at all the possible endings she could think of and he said she did not guess what actually happens in the show.

So, Gendry is probably not the winner. Neither is Jon or Danni or Cersei.

I dunno...looking forward to finding out.

The cast are told to lie by the producers and several different endings were filmed, till the final credits roll, I am not believing anything.

And yes, I know that Rose does not work for GOT anymore
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:18 PM
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wish we had gotten a better reaction shot from the guys on the ground (holy shit Jon's riding a dragon!).
Nah, more like

Yeah, king of da norf, goes down south, picks up some blone bint starts puttin on airs. Ridin the dragon that got my maeve, best goat in the north, like its an orse
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  #138  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:41 PM
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In terms of primogeniture (on Earth anyways) a son of a male heir would be next in line, regardless of whether the male heir perished before his father.
Right. And Westeros (except for Dorne) practices male-preference primogeniture, so any male heir inherits before any female. (Not sure if this strictly applies to Targaryens, however, and in any case, as in medieval Europe, it could be cast aside for political considerations.)
  #139  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:51 PM
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Did we see Podrick this episode? I assume he's back in Winterfell.
  #140  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:57 PM
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I saw an interview with Kit Harrington (aka Jon Snow) and he said his wife, Rose Leslie (who played Ygritte in GoT and was Jon Snow's lover), guessed at all the possible endings she could think of and he said she did not guess what actually happens in the show.

So, Gendry is probably not the winner. Neither is Jon or Danni or Cersei.

I dunno...looking forward to finding out.

My money's on Ant-man flying into the Night King's butt and then expanding.
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  #141  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:04 PM
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Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far.
Right. It didn't seem like they were traveling long before encountering the slaughtered Wildlings.

Also, Ghost brings in a severed hand belonging to two missing Night Watch, whose bodies were later recovered to re-animate inside Castle Black. It didn't seem he went very far to get it.

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Did we see Podrick this episode? I assume he's back in Winterfell.
Yes, he was seen briefly a couple of times.
  #142  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:07 PM
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Here's the opening scene on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gWSe5PIP7Y

Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far.
Yes, when they first enter the forest you see the wall. Then there are multiple cuts and you no longer see the wall. This could be days later as far as I'm concerned.
  #143  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:19 PM
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Did we see Podrick this episode? I assume he's back in Winterfell.
Yes, he was seen briefly a couple of times.
All of Bronn's friends are in Winterfell, then. Jaime, Tyrion, and Podrick.

Bronn's probably headed there now with a crossbow, but I don't think he'll use it on any of them. He certainly can't stay in King's Landing if it's true that Flynn and Headey despise each other and have it in their contracts that they'll never share a scene together.
  #144  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:39 PM
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Nah, more like

Yeah, king of da norf, goes down south, picks up some blone bint starts puttin on airs. Ridin the dragon that got my maeve, best goat in the north, like its an orse
Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some fiery tart threw a dragon at you.
  #145  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:43 PM
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Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the series!
  #146  
Old 04-15-2019, 07:02 PM
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I thought Arya's line that Sansa is the smartest person she knows is completely unearned. In fact, I think Sansa as a smart, developed player of the game is unearned. Yes, I understand the story has progressed in such a way that that's *supposed* to be what we think, but it's just weak writing.
I agree completely; this is what annoys me about this show that, let's face it, looks great and has top-notch casting, acting, and (usually) direction. And superb special effects, too, for the most part.

But the "smartest person I know" line was utterly unearned. It is, however, a sign of the way the showrunners are going to end this thing: with Sansa doing very well, even if not as Iron Throne occupant, but only as consort to the Iron Throne occupant. One way or the other, Sansa is fully approved of by the writing staff (including GRRM?)




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Dany is a very flawed queen, and I honestly don't know if the writers understand this. Maybe it'll become a plot point, and maybe they'll just gloss over it. I don't expect them to handle this one well.

She's arrogant. She's more concerned with being shown the proper respect and playing bullshit political games and have people treat her with reverance than she is about doing everything she can to fight for the living. We've seen that Jon is truly the leader they need - he has no ego, he doesn't give a shit about his own position or power or glory, he is completely dedicated to fulfilling the role thrust upon him to defeat the Night King. Jon is the king the world needs, and Danerys is way too attached to southern games and meaningless political bullshit and having everyone show the proper deference for her royalty. Jon deposing/killing/whatever Danerys would be fully justified, in both a practical way, and in terms of the rules of royalty, if anyone even gives a shit about that anymore. I don't think this is going to happen, but that's the direction they should be going. ...
My bolding. I think the writers absolutely do intend to show exactly what you've outlined here: that Daenerys is being presented as an initially-sympathetic character who has become uppity, and that this tells us the future of this character (unhappy), as much as the 'Sansa is the smartest person I know' line tells us the future of Sansa (happy).

It's all very heavy-handed.


That premiere really did look gorgeous, though. You can see why they're doing only six episodes, given the likely cost of each---particularly if the episodes offer as much dragon "footage" as this one did. Those scenes are massively expensive to produce.
  #147  
Old 04-15-2019, 07:11 PM
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He certainly can't stay in King's Landing if it's true that Flynn and Headey despise each other and have it in their contracts that they'll never share a scene together.
Cersei would have sent him on that mission herself without that clause. I was actually surprised at the start of the scene when I thought Qyburn was summoning Bronn to meet with the Queen.
  #148  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:45 PM
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If you exclude the title sequence and the credits, this ep was about 54 min.
That's why I used the word "around" and not the word "exactly".
  #149  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:00 PM
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The new intro is interesting. Especially the bands with the little gilded scenes on them.

The first one seems pretty straightforward. The zombie dragon melts the wall as the army of the dead stand by. On the other side of the wall are what look like birds. "Crows", I imagine.

The second is an enigma. A lion has caught a fish. There are other fish nearby. A griffin shot with arrows is hanged in the middle. On the right is a helmed man with a dagger (who may be naked, flayed, or dead) holding a severed wolf's head.

The last shows a comet-like object on the left that looks kinda like an owl. Livestock or deer graze below. Three dragons fly nearby. Another dragon just right of center is very large, and is probably meant to stand as a single image.


The first one doesn't seem to hold much mystery.

For the second, the lion with the fish might represent Jaime defeating the Blackfish, though that doesn't seem like a very significant event. I guess that the dead griffin represents Tywin. The wolf's head might be Ned Stark, Shaggydog, or some other dead Stark.

The third seems pretty generic (dragons hunting livestock), except for the comet. The red comet from the first season? The dying Viserion? Something else? The lone dragon might represent "the winner of the game of thrones."
  #150  
Old 04-15-2019, 11:23 PM
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Here's the opening scene on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gWSe5PIP7Y

Sure looks to me like when the walk into the forest the Wall is still visible in the background. They might travel a ways into the forest but not far.
Rewatching that reminded me that the White Walkers arranged the dead Wildlings and their body parts in some sort of symbolic pattern, similar to what was seen at the end of this episode.

Any idea what is up with that? I haven't rewatched any episodes and don't recall if we've seen other instances of this.
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