Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #201  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:22 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You can come with all kinds of analogies but what you can't do is provide a cite where Carter Page is an agent of a foreign power and that foreign power being Russia.
You keep bouncing around between two different subjects, Page being an agent of Russia and the email that was falsified, which talked about him being a source for the CIA.

I'm happy to talk about him being an agent of Russia, but I don't want to have to come back to the CIA topic again. Are we good on the CIA subject? If so, then I am quite happy to post a selection of quotes from the document that establish Page as a foreign agent. If not, then let's make sure that we're all good before changing topics.

Are we also good on the concept that one can be both a contact of the CIA and Russia and that those are not mutually exclusive?
  #202  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:36 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Ok, let's stay on topic. WHY do you think the FBI "lied" (your words, not mine) about Carter Page? What, in your view, was the motivation?
I don't know what their motivation was but I do know they lied and the IG Report confirms that.

Also there's this, footnote 461 from the IG Report:

Quote:
The only express direction we found that McCabe gave regarding the use of a CHS
concerned a former FBI CHS, who contacted an FBI agent in an FBI field office in late July 2016 to
report information from "a colleague who runs an investigative firm ... hired by two entities (the
Democratic National Committee [DNC] as well as another individual...[who was] not name[d]) to
explore Donald Trump's longstanding ties to Russian entities." The former CHS also gave the FBI
agent a list of "individuals and entities who have surfaced in [the investigative firm's] examination,"
which the former CHS described as "mostly public source material." In mid-September 2016, McCabe
told SSA 1 to instruct the FBI agent from the field office not to have any further contact with the
former CHS, and not to accept any information regarding the Crossfire Hurricane investigation.
McCabe told the OIG he did not remember giving those instructions, and could not tell us why he
might have done so. We found no evidence that the FBI reopened the former CHS for the Crossfire
Hurricane investigation, or tasked the former CHS in connection with the Crossfire Hurricane
investigation.
The Crossfire Hurricane operation opened on July 31, 2016 but McCabe seems to have gotten information from Christopher Steele prior to the date. Which seems to imply the investigation was triggered by the Steele Dossier.
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!

Last edited by EasyPhil; 12-13-2019 at 03:37 PM.
  #203  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:39 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
You keep bouncing around between two different subjects, Page being an agent of Russia and the email that was falsified, which talked about him being a source for the CIA.

I'm happy to talk about him being an agent of Russia, but I don't want to have to come back to the CIA topic again. Are we good on the CIA subject? If so, then I am quite happy to post a selection of quotes from the document that establish Page as a foreign agent. If not, then let's make sure that we're all good before changing topics.

Are we also good on the concept that one can be both a contact of the CIA and Russia and that those are not mutually exclusive?
Please provide a cite for what you know a CIA Operational Contact to be.
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #204  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:41 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,181
SO WHAT? It does not change anything that happened in 2016. The facts are still the same. You can't even make a guess as to what the motivation was? Is that because you truly do not know (in which case there is no motive for malfeasance that you can imagine), or you just do not want to admit what this is all about for you. You should know that it is very clear, even if you don't admit it.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #205  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:44 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
SO WHAT? It does not change anything that happened in 2016. The facts are still the same. You can't even make a guess as to what the motivation was? Is that because you truly do not know (in which case there is no motive for malfeasance that you can imagine), or you just do not want to admit what this is all about for you. You should know that it is very clear, even if you don't admit it.
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #206  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:46 PM
Hamlet is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Where the Wild Things Are
Posts: 14,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
This could be one of the unintentionally funniest posts I've ever read on this board.
  #207  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:50 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?


I'll tell you what, when you answer the questions posed to you, then I'll answer yours. Ball is in your court. Just know that all of these pages of work you've put in on this means nothing and hasn't changed a single thing, nor will it. What happened in 2016 is what happened. You cannot erase that with this magic bullet you think you've found. You are essentially a tinfoil-hatter at this point. You can't even articulate what you think the grand motive behind this was. What is a conspiracy theory without a motive? Lunacy. That's what.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #208  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:54 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post


I'll tell you what, when you answer the questions posed to you, then I'll answer yours. Ball is in your court. Just know that all of these pages of work you've put in on this means nothing and hasn't changed a single thing, nor will it. What happened in 2016 is what happened. You cannot erase that with this magic bullet you think you've found. You are essentially a tinfoil-hatter at this point. You can't even articulate what you think the grand motive behind this was. What is a conspiracy theory without a motive? Lunacy. That's what.
Why are you resorting to name calling?
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #209  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:56 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Why are you resorting to name calling?
Why are you refusing to answer pertinent questions posed to you?

Also saying you are like a tinfoil-hatter is not name calling, it's a simile, not an insult. Just letting you know how you are coming across because I don't think you are aware.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #210  
Old 12-13-2019, 03:57 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Why are you resorting to name calling?
Why are you avoiding answering the question posed?
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #211  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:07 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Why are you avoiding answering the question posed?
What question? What do you want me to answer?
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #212  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:17 PM
Moriarty's Avatar
Moriarty is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 3,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
No, he’s not. The words you responded to are “so what?” That’s not a denial; that’s a desperate plea for you to get to the point.

Do you take the position that any particular law enforcement investigation is invalid, and the findings erroneous, if it can be shown that some aspect of the investigation is incorrect?

I mean, by virtue of not even hypothesizing a reason, you are essentially saying that it doesn’t matter why any error was made - malicious, lazy, incompetent - it doesn’t matter. An error - any error - can be mentioned over and over and it is, to you, self evident that nothing that was uncovered even needs to be considered.
  #213  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:20 PM
Ruken is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Please provide a cite for what you know a CIA Operational Contact to be.
Nobody, including you, has disputed what he's written about Operational Contacts. Thus, there is no need to cite anything. If you think it means something else, nobody is stopping you from making a claim.
  #214  
Old 12-13-2019, 04:23 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 20,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
What question? What do you want me to answer?
What did the FBI lie about and, more importantly, what was their motive for doing so?
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #215  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:03 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
I don't know what their motivation was....
Just speculate. I want to hear your opinion on the question that you posed in the title of the thread.
  #216  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:36 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Please provide a cite for what you know a CIA Operational Contact to be.
Footnote page 358:

Quote:
As described in Chapter Five, according to the U.S. government agency, "operational contact," as that term is used in the memorandum about Page, provides "Contact Approval," which allows the agency to contact and discuss sensitive information with a U.S. Person and to collect information from that person via "passive debriefing," or debriefing a person of information that is within the knowledge of an individual and has been acquired through the normal course of that individual's activities. According to the U.S. government agency, a "Contact Approval" does not allow for operational use of a U.S. Person or tasking of that person.
  #217  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:36 AM
margin is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,497
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Why are you resorting to name calling?

How come it's "name-calling" when it's directed at a Trump fan but acceptable when Trump falsely accuses people by the handful? One standard for everybody.
__________________
They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
  #218  
Old 12-14-2019, 01:28 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
YES
  #219  
Old 12-14-2019, 03:16 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
The FBI, as an organization, did not lie about Carter Page.

One person, within the organization, arguably lied but that seems to have been out of laziness not malevolence and his lie was, likely, inconsequential. It's supposition but, likely, the judge would have reapproved the warrant if he had known about the CIA connection. In fact, the larger concern within the FBI was whether they needed to care about the connection since they don't want to arrest someone who is a CIA agent nor waste time snooping on someone who would possibly just tell you everything that he knows and that you could trust was telling the truth and would include any information on criminal activities if there was any.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-14-2019 at 03:19 PM.
  #220  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:50 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
The FBI, as an organization, did not lie about Carter Page.

One person, within the organization, arguably lied but that seems to have been out of laziness not malevolence and his lie was, likely, inconsequential. It's supposition but, likely, the judge would have reapproved the warrant if he had known about the CIA connection. In fact, the larger concern within the FBI was whether they needed to care about the connection since they don't want to arrest someone who is a CIA agent nor waste time snooping on someone who would possibly just tell you everything that he knows and that you could trust was telling the truth and would include any information on criminal activities if there was any.

This is nonsense, teams of people worked on the FISA application not one person. There were multiple errors/omissions on all of the applications. The Judge would not have re-approved the application if the exculpatory information was included. Carter Page is an American Citizen not an agent of a foreign power nor was he working for one. You're spreading disinformation. What are you doing that?
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #221  
Old 12-14-2019, 10:52 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Nobody, including you, has disputed what he's written about Operational Contacts. Thus, there is no need to cite anything. If you think it means something else, nobody is stopping you from making a claim.
He's spreading disinformation in an attempt to cover for and make excuses for the FBI and their behavior.
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #222  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:25 PM
Jonathan Chance is offline
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 23,319

The Moderator Speaks


Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
He's spreading disinformation in an attempt to cover for and make excuses for the FBI and their behavior.
I'm going to have to take that as an accusation of lying, EasyPhil. That's not allowed here and you should know that.

Warning issued. Please don't do it again.
  #223  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:38 PM
simster is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
This is nonsense, teams of people worked on the FISA application not one person. There were multiple errors/omissions on all of the applications. The Judge would not have re-approved the application if the exculpatory information was included. Carter Page is an American Citizen not an agent of a foreign power nor was he working for one. You're spreading disinformation. What are you doing that?
CITE for the bolded (by me) part?

Last I understood the final analysis by the IG - this is simply false.

Last edited by simster; 12-14-2019 at 11:38 PM.
  #224  
Old 12-14-2019, 11:39 PM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 27,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
It's supposition but, likely, the judge would have reapproved the warrant if he had known about the CIA connection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
The Judge would not have re-approved the application if the exculpatory information was included.
Hmmmmm.. these two statements don't agree with each other. And it's just a dead-even toss-up as to which poster has made the better case for their point of view using available facts and logic.
  #225  
Old 12-15-2019, 12:42 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Carter Page is an American Citizen not an agent of a foreign power nor was he working for one.
You do not need to be a foreign citizen in order to be an agent of a foreign power. That is the "2" in the reference number for the US code definition that the FBI gave (50 U.S. Code § 1801(b)(2)(E).

Since you seem to have lost interest in the CIA question, here are your quotes for the matter of Page being an agent of a foreign power:

(Page numbers given as the quotee.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 61
C. The Pre-Existing FBI New York Field Office Counterintelligence Investigation of Carter Page
Now, there's no real need to break this quote here, but I feel like it merits a moment of reflection on that second word there, in the above. What pre-existing means is, "before Carter Page had any connection what-so-ever to the Donald Trump campaign" he was already under investigation by the FBI as a national security risk.

I would put it to you that the FBI can neither foretell the future nor can they travel back in time. With that being my stance, I put it to you that they were investigating Carter Page for being an agent of Russia not out of political animosity towards Donald Trump but, rather, because Carter Page had done some shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 61-63
As reflected in the FISA applications described in Chapters Five and Seven, as well as in other FBI documents, NYFO had an interest in Carter Page for several years before August 2016 and had interviewed him on multiple occasions because of his relationships with individuals the FBI knew to be Russian intelligence officers.

An FBI counterintelligence agent in NYFO (NYFO CI Agent) with extensive experience in Russian matters told the OIG that Carter Page had been on NYFO's radar since 2009, when he had contact with a known Russian intelligence officer (Intelligence Officer 1). According to the EC documenting NYFO's June 2009 interview with Page, Page told NYFO agents that he knew and kept in regular contact with Intelligence Officer 1 and provided him with a copy of a non-public annual report from an American company. The EC stated that Page "immediately advised [the agents] that due to his work and overseas experiences, he has been questioned by and provides information to representatives of [another U.S. government agency] on an ongoing basis." The EC also noted that agents did not ask Page any questions about his dealings with the other U.S. government agency during the interviews. 180

NYFO CI agents believed that Carter Page was "passed" from Intelligence Officer 1 to a successor Russian intelligence officer {Intelligence Officer 2) in 2013 and that Page would continue to be introduced to other Russian intelligence officers in the future. 181 In June 2013, NYFO CI agents interviewed Carter Page about these contacts. Page acknowledged meeting Intelligence Officer 2 following an introduction earlier in 2013. When agents intimated to Carter Page during the interview that Intelligence Officer 2 may be a Russian intelligence officer, specifically, an "SVR" officer, Page told them. he believed in "openness" and because he did not have access to classified information, his acquaintance with Intelligence Officer 2 was a "positive" for him. In August 2013, NYFO CI agents again interviewed Page regarding his contacts with Intelligence Officer 2. Page acknowledged meeting with Intelligence Officer 2 since his June 2013 FBI interview.

In January 2015, three Russian intelligence officers, including Intelligence Officer 2, were charged in a sealed complaint, and subsequently indicted, in the Southern District of New York (SDNY) for conspiring to act in the United States as unregistered agents of the Russian Federation. 182 The indictment referenced Intelligence Officer 2's attempts to recruit "Male-1" as an asset for gathering intelligence on behalf of Russia.

On March 2, 2016, the NYFO CI Agent and SDNY Assistant United States Attorneys interviewed Carter Page in preparation for the trial of one of the indicted Russian intelligence officers. During the interview, Page stated that he knew he was the person referred to as Male-1 in the indictment and further said that he had identified himself as Male-1 to a Russian Minister and various Russian officials at a United Nations event in "the spirit of openness." The NYFO CI Agent told us she returned to her office after the interview and discussed with her supervisor opening a counterintelligence case on Page based on his statement to Russian officials that he believed he was Male-1 in the indictment and his continued contact with Russian intelligence officers.

The FBI's NYFO CI squad supervisor (NYFO CI Supervisor) told us she believed she should have opened a counterintelligence case on Carter Page prior to March 2, 2016 based on his continued contacts with Russian intelligence officers; however, she said the squad was preparing for a big trial, and they did not focus on Page until he was interviewed again on March 2. She told us that after the March 2 interview, she called CD's Counterespionage Section at FBI Headquarters to determine whether Page had any security clearances and to ask for guidance as to what type of investigation to open on Page. 183 On April 1, 2016, the NYFO CI Supervisor received an email from the Counterespionage Section advising her to open a _____ investigation on Page. The NYFO CI Supervisor said that ____________________________ In addition, according to FBI records, the relevant CD section at FBI Headquarters, in consultation with OGC, determined at that time that the Page investigation opened by NYFO was not a SIM, but also noted, "should his status change, the appropriate case modification would be made." The NYFO CI Supervisor told us that based on what was documented in the file and what was known at that time, the NYFO Carter Page investigation was not a SIM.

Although Carter Page was announced as a foreign policy advisor for the Trump campaign prior to NYFO receiving this guidance from FBI Headquarters, the NYFO CI Supervisor and CI Agent both told the OIG that this announcement did not influence their decision to open a case on Page and that their concerns about Page, particularly his disclosure to the Russians about his role in the indictment, predated the announcement. However, the NYFO CI Supervisor said that the announcement required noting his new position in the case file should his new position require he obtain a security clearance.

On April 6, 2016, NYFO opened a counterintelligence - investigation on Carter Page under a code name the FBI assigned to him (NYFO investigation) based on his contacts with Russian intelligence officers and his statement to Russian officials that he was "Male-1" in the SDNY indictment. Based on our review of documents in the NYFO case file, as well as our interview of the NYFO CI Agent, there was limited investigative activity in the NYFO investigation between April 6 and the Crossfire Hurricane team's opening of its investigation of Page on August 10. The NYFO CI Agent told the OIG that the steps she took in the first few months of the case were to observe whether any other intelligence officers contacted Page and to prepare national security letters seeking Carter Page's cell phone number(s) and residence information. The NYFO CI agent said that she did not use any CHSs to target Page during the NYFO investigation. The NYFO investigation was transferred to the Crossfire Hurricane team on August 10 and became part of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 122
The Crossfire Hurricane team told us that the proposal for FISA coverage targeting Carter Page originated from the team, not an instruction from management. The team also told us that its interest in obtaining a FISA was based upon Page's prior contacts with known Russian intelligence officers, which the team believed made him most receptive to receiving the offer of assistance from the Russians reported in the FFG information (described in Chapter Three) provided to the FBI in late July 2016.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 146
4. October Meeting between Page and an FBI CHS

As we summarize in Chapter Ten, in October 2016, before the FBI obtained the initial FISA authority targeting Carter Page, an FBI CHS had a consensually monitored meeting with Page. During the meeting, among other things, Page said that he wanted to develop a research institute and, in talking about how he would fund the institute, Page said, "I don't want to say there'd be an open checkbook, but the Russians would definitely .... " According to the partial transcript, the sentence trailed off as Carter Page laughed. The CHS then stated "they would fund it-yeah you could do alright there" and Page responded "Yeah, but that has its pros and cons, right?" At another point in the conversation, Page noted that he had "a longstanding constructive relationship with the Russians going back throughout" his life. When asked about the link between the Russians and Wikileaks, Page said that, "[as he has] made clear in a lot of ... subsequent discussions/interviews .. .! know nothing about that-on a personal level, you know no one's ever said a word to me." With regard to the platform committee during the Republican National Convention, Page said that he "stayed clear of that-there was a lot of conspiracy. theories that I was one of them ... [but] totally off the record ... members of our team were working on that, and .. .in retrospect it's way better off that !...remained at arms length."
If you continue to read on, the report then makes it clear that Page denied various allegations in the Steele Report and that these denials were not included in the FISA application:

Quote:
Carter Page also told the CHS during the meeting that the "core lie" against him in the media "is that [Page] met with these sanctioned Russian officials, several of which I've never met in my entire life." Page said that the "core lie" concerned "Sechin [who] is the main guy, the head of Rosneft ... [and] there's another guy I had never even heard of, you know he's like, in the inner circle." When asked about that person's name, Page said "I can't even remember, it's just so outrageous."

The Crossfire Hurricane team provided to 01 some, but not all, of the information obtained during this meeting for inclusion in the first FISA application. According to the description in the FISA application, Page met with the FBI CHS on a particular date in October and made statements that led the FBI to believe that Page continued to be closely tied to Russian officials, including the suggestion that "the Russians" would be giving him an "open checkbook" to fund a foreign policy think tank project. The description also stated that Page told the CHS that he may be appearing in a televised interview to discuss the potential for change in U.S. foreign policy toward Russia and Syria in the event Trump wins the presidential election. However, as discussed later in this chapter, the application filed with the court did not fully or accurately describe the information obtained by the FBI as a result of this meeting because the FBI did not advise 01 that Page denied meeting with Sechin and Divyekin, as alleged in Report 94, or that Page denied knowing anything about the disclosure by WikiLeaks of hacked DNC emails, as alleged in Report 95.
Now, I grant that you probably read that as a smoking gun of, "The FBI lied about Carter Page!" And I can't stop you from reading that passage through beer goggles.

But let me point out that little thing called the Miranda Warning.

The point of Miranda is to tell criminals that if they tell the police something, the police can and will use that information against them. The job of the police is not to tell the story in the way that the perp would wish that they told it, it's in the way that is most revealing of the perp's criminal intentions.

Imagine, for example, that someone tells you, while looking at a 10 year old girl in a bikini, "Aw man, the things I'd do to that one." And then, a moment later says, "Pff, as if. Like I'd do that sort of thing!" When someone says something revealing of their inner mind, the plastering over of that which follows isn't particularly convincing. It's fair to assume that we were just granted an inner glimpse of the reality and that, then, the person tried to bluff their way out of it.

A denial of a crime is not a particularly meaningful statement to a police officer. All crooks claim their innocence. Likewise, all non-crooks claim their innocence - because they're actually innocent. As a metric, it doesn't add anything. But, while denials are not useful, the innocent person would never talk in a lascivious way about a 10 year old girl nor would they talk about having an open checkbook with Russian agents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

That the FBI did not include Page's denials is standard operating procedure for all police, period, for all investigations. That is not a conspiratorial activity against Carter Page, that's what we teach them to do and then pay them to do. Left-wing bleeding heartists hate that aspect of policing but, nevertheless, it is how the job is done and unless you are one of them lefties, you should be all in for letting the police trap crooks with their own admissions of criminal acts.

Not specifically related to Page's status as a foreign agent, but I feel like these further sections of the document should be pointed out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 128-129
On or about September 23, the 01 Attorney began work on the initial draft FISA application. At this early stage of the drafting process, Evans told us that he instructed the 01 Attorney and 01 Unit Chief to handle the Carter Page FISA application as they would any other FISA application-to make sure the work was as thorough as possible so that NSD could answer the legal question of whether the facts meet the probable cause standard-and leave any policy questions to the decision makers down the road.

As described in Chapter Two, the read copy of a FISA application is prepared by an 01 attorney using information provided by the FBI, primarily the case agent. The 01 attorney relies heavily on the case agent to supply the necessary information and identify significant issues. NSD officials told us that the nature of FISA practice requires that 01 rely on the FBI agents who are familiar with the investigation to provide accurate and complete information. Unlike federal prosecutors, 01 attorneys are usually not involved in an investigation, or even aware of a case's existence, unless and until 01 receives a request to initiate a FISA application. Once they receive a request, 01 attorneys generally interact with field offices remotely and do not have broad access to FBI case files or sensitive source files. According to NSD officials, even if 01 received broader access to FBI case files, the number of FISA requests that 01 attorneys are responsible for handling makes it impracticable for an 01 attorney to become intimately familiar with an FBI case file, particular one about which they have had little to no prior awareness. 266 In addition, NSD told us that 01 attorneys are not in the best position to sift through a voluminous FBI case file because they do not have the background knowledge and context to meaningfully assess all the information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 132-133
To further address reliability, the 01 Attorney sought information from the FBI to describe the source network in the FISA application. On multiple occasions, the 01 Attorney asked the FBI questions about the sub-sources, including in a September 30, 2016 email in which he asked Case Agent 1 and the Crossfire Hurricane team: "If the reporting is being made by a primary source, but based on sub-sources, why is it reliable-even though second/third hand?" The OIG did not find a written response to this specific question, and the 01 Attorney did not recall a response. However, the 01 Attorney told us that the Crossfire Hurricane team eventually briefed him on the sub-source information they learned from Steele after their early October meeting with him (described in Chapter Four). He also received a written summary of this information that the Supervisory Intel Analyst prepared shortly after the October meeting. The 01 Attorney told us that based on the information the FBI provided, he thought at the time that some of the sub-sources were "definitely" in a position to have had access to the information Steele was reporting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 134-135
Baker told us that he also remembered being satisfied at the time that there was probable cause articulated in the draft application to believe that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power. He said that it was difficult for him to fully explain to us the basis for his assessment without reviewing the entire application again, but that he recalled Page's continuing relationships with Russian intelligence officers, even after the FBI made Page aware that they were Russian intelligence officers, being "key" facts in his mind. 271 Further, he said that, in retrospect, he thought that Page's knowing interactions with Russian intelligence officers could have established probable cause even without reliance on the reporting from Steele.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-15-2019 at 12:43 AM.
  #226  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:14 AM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Some additional notes:

1) A "SIM" is a case that is politically sensitive. For example, investigating a Presidential candidate would be a SIM. If Page was going to be investigated as a non-SIM, just before joining Trump, that is an indication that there was no sense by those who wanted to investigate him that there were any political nor special ramifications worth note in investigating his Russian connections.

2) James Baker now works at the R Street Institute, a Republican think tank.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-15-2019 at 02:16 AM.
  #227  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:46 AM
Ruken is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
He's spreading disinformation in an attempt to cover for and make excuses for the FBI and their behavior.
You still haven't disputed what he and your cite say an operational contact is, or told us what you think the term means instead.

Last edited by Ruken; 12-15-2019 at 08:46 AM.
  #228  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:40 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
You still haven't disputed what he and your cite say an operational contact is, or told us what you think the term means instead.
It's pretty clear that Carter Page was working with the CIA and wasn't an agent of a foreign power. This is why the FBI altered an email and used that doctored evidence for the warrant. They knew this information all along.

Today you had Comey on Fox News finally admitting that Horowitz was right.

Comey Interview with Chris Wallace
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #229  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:42 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Some additional notes:

1) A "SIM" is a case that is politically sensitive. For example, investigating a Presidential candidate would be a SIM. If Page was going to be investigated as a non-SIM, just before joining Trump, that is an indication that there was no sense by those who wanted to investigate him that there were any political nor special ramifications worth note in investigating his Russian connections.

2) James Baker now works at the R Street Institute, a Republican think tank.
Carter Page was working with the CIA and forwarding information from those Russian Contacts to them. The FBI used that information to bolster the FISA warrant knowing full well that Carter Page was working with the CIA.
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #230  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:47 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Carter Page was working with the CIA and forwarding information from those Russian Contacts to them. The FBI used that information to bolster the FISA warrant knowing full well that Carter Page was working with the CIA.
Fantasy. That's not what the report shows.
  #231  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:49 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Fantasy. That's not what the report shows.
It's not fantasy, read the report.

Quote:
Omitted information the FBI had obtained from
another U.S. government agency detailing its
prior relationship with Page, including that Page
had been approved as an "operational contact"
for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and
that Page had provided information to the other
agency concerning his prior contacts with certain
Russian intelligence officers, one of which
overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA
application;
This is the first of seven "significant inaccuracies and omisisons" in the IG Report. If you want to argue this isn't true, provide a cite contradicting it.
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!

Last edited by EasyPhil; 12-15-2019 at 01:54 PM.
  #232  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:51 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
It's not fantasy, read the report.
I have.
  #233  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:57 PM
Ruken is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
It's pretty clear that Carter Page was working with the CIA and wasn't an agent of a foreign power.
You've now had multiple opportunities to dispute the definition, which you requested, of an Operational Contact and have chosen not to do so. That's because you can't.
  #234  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:58 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Carter Page was working with the CIA and forwarding information from those Russian Contacts to them.
Cite?
  #235  
Old 12-15-2019, 01:58 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Quote:
Omitted information the FBI had obtained from
another U.S. government agency detailing its
prior relationship with Page, including that Page
had been approved as an "operational contact"
for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and
that Page had provided information to the other
agency concerning his prior contacts with certain
Russian intelligence officers, one of which
overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA
application;
That is not the same things as...

Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Carter Page was working with the CIA and forwarding information from those Russian Contacts to them. The FBI used that information to bolster the FISA warrant knowing full well that Carter Page was working with the CIA.
The first is a quote from the report. The other is pure fantasy.

They do not say the same thing.
  #236  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:02 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
That is not the same things as...



The first is a quote from the report. The other is pure fantasy.

They do not say the same thing.
To you, what does that quote from the report say?
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #237  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:05 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
To you, what does that quote from the report say?
Is this a real question? It says...

Quote:
Omitted information the FBI had obtained from
another U.S. government agency detailing its
prior relationship with Page, including that Page
had been approved as an "operational contact"
for the other agency from 2008 to 2013, and
that Page had provided information to the other
agency concerning his prior contacts with certain
Russian intelligence officers, one of which
overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA
application;
What are you getting at?
  #238  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:18 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
To you, what does that quote from the report say?
It says what Carter Page himself said:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...sia_probe.html

Quote:
"I was asked various questions, not only by State, FBI, etc, but also the CIA," he said. "I had a long-standing relationship with the CIA going back decades essentially, and I was always very transparent, open."
Which is to say, "They asked me questions. I answered their questions."

There is no "actively forwarding information to them". Your brain invented that, just like (if you watched the previous video) everyone in that audience invented a gun that was never in the story.

You have confused yourself. I'm sorry, but it's just not what actually happened and even a site like RealClearPolitics - exactly the sort of place to drum up information in Page's favor - does not report what you are saying because that would open them up to libel suits.
  #239  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:22 PM
EasyPhil is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NYCNYUSA
Posts: 1,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
It says what Carter Page himself said:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...sia_probe.html



Which is to say, "They asked me questions. I answered their questions."

There is no "actively forwarding information to them". Your brain invented that, just like (if you watched the previous video) everyone in that audience invented a gun that was never in the story.

You have confused yourself. I'm sorry, but it's just not what actually happened and even a site like RealClearPolitics - exactly the sort of place to drum up information in Page's favor - does not report what you are saying because that would open them up to libel suits.

Stop misquoting me. I didn't say "actively...", you added that. Here's what the IG Report says...

Quote:
and
that Page had provided information to the other
agency concerning his prior contacts with certain
Russian intelligence officers, one of which
overlapped with facts asserted in the FISA
application
__________________
Thinking in, out and around the box!
  #240  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:30 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
Stop misquoting me. I didn't say "actively...", you added that. Here's what the IG Report says...
While being asked questions by the FBI, he provided (answered) and told them about his connections with Russians.

Do I have to go back over how "candor" is not exonerating?
  #241  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:41 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
It occurs to me that one thing that might be holding you up is the idea that someone would admit to being a foreign agent. One would never tell the CIA that, yes, I work with foreign intelligence officers. Yes, I am aware that they are foreign intelligence officers. Unless that person was trying to be helpful to the CIA and was genuinely on their side.

So, let's point this out clearly:

It is not a crime to be a foreign agent. Foreign agent is a legal term not a crime.

It is a crime to lie to the FBI.

Cooperation with the FBI and CIA under questioning is how you stay out of jail. Cooperating and answering their questions honestly is not the same thing as "being part of the team". Being part of the team would be something like, as example, actively passing information to them.

A person who only ever provides information, when run down, and only when asked questions that - if answered honestly - would not get you thrown into jail, is not a friendly. They are a person who is smart enough to know the law.

Page is a loonbat. But he's also a PhD. Crazy but not stupid.
  #242  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:45 PM
Ruken is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 7,922
Eh PhD != not stupid. I'm sure everyone with one knows a few examples and is nodding their head here.
  #243  
Old 12-15-2019, 02:59 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 27,493
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyPhil View Post
You're saying the FBI didn't lie about Carter Page?
Are you ever going to state your answer to the question in your thread? Why do you think the FBI went after Page?
  #244  
Old 12-15-2019, 03:34 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Eh PhD != not stupid. I'm sure everyone with one knows a few examples and is nodding their head here.
To be sure. As (again) it says in the video "being smart" and thinking that you're going to buy yourself something by talking to the cops is a fool's errand.

As it ended up, Page talked himself into having a wiretap issued against him. If he had pleaded the 5th, rather than admit to being a foreign agent, the FBI would only have had the Steele Dossier and that likely wouldn't have been enough to establish probable cause.

And, I'll note, there may well be a reason that the CIA likes Page.

Let's say, for example, that they want to know where Russian Agent 2 is hiding out. They know that Page knows and can prove it. They go to Page and ask him, "Where is Agent 2 hiding?" Page will answer honestly because it's more important to him to stay out of jail than to protect Agent 2 or just because Page enjoys the game of seeing just how much information he can dangle in front of the CIA to establish his "honesty" while wasting their time and thinking that he's not giving anything away (when, in fact, he is).

To be sure, we might expect that just after Page tells them where Agent 2 is that he'll send a signal to someone to warn Agent 2 to get moving. Agent 2 might still get away, because you used Page. But, minus him, you'd have no chance at all.

But, under certain circumstances, Page's "candor" and urge to show off might be as valuable as a friendly source.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 12-15-2019 at 03:37 PM.
  #245  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:03 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 22,480
EasyPhil, think of it this way:

I ask Ravenman, "Are you a bastard?"

Ravenman replies back, "What? No. I resent the implication!"

I ask, "Was your mother married to your blood father?"

"Well...no."

"Did they ever live together?"

"No...."

"Is it not the case that the man who raised you adopted you as his son."

"Yes, that's true."

"So, you're a bastard."

"I do not accept that characterization. I will answer no more questions. Harumph!"

So, now, likewise as I have said, Carter Page entirely and candidly admits by definition if not by "characterization" that he is a foreign agent.

1) He knows that he associates with Russian agents. He has been told that they are Russian agents. He is aware that some of them have been convicted in a court of law, here in the United States of America, as being foreign Intelligence agents. He continues to associate with these people, despite that.
2) He provides them with (non-classified) information that they ask him for. He does not do so under duress. They cannot convict him for lying to them. He does it, as far as we can tell, in an attempt to get business deals through them.

Do you disagree with any of that?
  #246  
Old 12-15-2019, 04:50 PM
dropzone's Avatar
dropzone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bedlam
Posts: 30,334
Who the fuck is Carter Page and why should I care?
  #247  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:14 PM
Xema is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 12,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
What did the FBI lie about and, more importantly, what was their motive for doing so?
Here's a Rolling Stone article by Matt Taibbi with pertinent information:
Quote:
Officials on the “Crossfire Hurricane” Trump-Russia investigators went to extraordinary, almost comical lengths to seek surveillance authority of figures like Trump aide Carter Page. In one episode, an FBI attorney inserted the words “not a source” in an email he’d received from another government agency. This disguised the fact that Page had been an informant for that agency, and had dutifully told the government in real time about being approached by Russian intelligence. The attorney then passed on the email to an FBI supervisory special agent, who signed a FISA warrant application on Page that held those Russian contacts against Page, without disclosing his informant role.
So, an FBI attorney lied about Page's actual history in order to obtain a FISA warrant that otherwise would likely not have been granted.


Quote:
... the Horowitz report show years of breathless headlines were wrong. Some key points:
The so-called “Steele dossier” was, actually, crucial to the FBI’s decision to seek secret surveillance of Page.
...
There’s no FISA warrant without Steele.

Quote:
Democrats are not going to want to hear this, since conventional wisdom says former House Intelligence chief Devin Nunes is a conspiratorial evildoer, but the Horowitz report ratifies the major claims of the infamous “Nunes memo.”
There was gnashing of teeth when Nunes first released his memo in January, 2018. The press universally crapped on his letter, with a Washington Post piece calling it a “joke” and a “sham.” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi slammed Nunes for the release of a “bogus” document ...
The report is especially hostile to Schiff’s claim that the FBI “provided additional information obtained through multiple independent sources that corroborated Steele’s reporting.”
In fact, far from confirming the Steele material, the FBI over time seems mainly to have uncovered more and more reasons to run screaming from Steele ...
So, Nunes was correct, while Pelosi & Schiff were badly wrong.


Quote:
I’ve written about how reporters used sleight of hand to get the Steele dossier into print without putting it through a vetting process. What Horowitz describes is worse: a story about bad journalism piled on bad journalism, balanced on a third layer of wrong reporting.
Steele in his “reports” embellished his sources’ quotes, played up nonexistent angles, invented attributions, and ignored inconsistencies. The FBI then transplanted this bad reporting in the form of a warrant application and an addendum to the Intelligence Assessment that included the Steele material, ignoring a new layer of inconsistencies and red flags its analysts uncovered in the review process.
Then, following a series of leaks, the news media essentially reported on the FBI’s wrong reporting of Steele’s wrong reporting.

Quote:
As a result, a “well-developed conspiracy” theory based on a report that Comey described as “salacious and unverified material that a responsible journalist wouldn’t report without corroborating,” became the driving news story in a superpower nation for two years.
Yipes.
  #248  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:14 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Wow. Matt Taibbi doubles down on his bad take on Russian interference in the 2016 election. Whip di friggin' ding dong.
  #249  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:33 PM
Xema is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 12,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance Turbo View Post
Matt Taibbi doubles down ...
You dispute his evidence, or his inferences from it?
  #250  
Old 12-15-2019, 08:35 PM
Lance Turbo is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 4,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xema View Post
You dispute his evidence, or his inferences from it?
Yes. His inferences are dogshit.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017